Should we rebuild New Orleans?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:35 pm

it's probably a little early to say...in any case it will never be the same. and what was there is gone for good. i suspect that the heyday of the big easy is over.

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:43 pm

Scrat wrote: I think not. It isn't worth it, there will be another hurricane and it will cost billions to rebuild and prepare for the next one. And those preparations may fail.

Move the city off of the delta, ABOVE SEA LEVEL!!!

What do you think?Levees and Dykes are not Star Wars technology. If the levee between Lake Ponchartrain and New Orleans had been maintained properly, this would not have happened. New Orleans is one of the most romantic and picturesque cities in America, and the birthplace of some important cultural assets. I definitely believe the Big Easy should be restored, right where it is. Also, Louisiana is a poor state- it can not afford to lose what might be it's only real tourist magnet.

But with the current "Guns not Butter" people in the political ascendency in America today, don't hold your breath!

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:50 pm

telaquapacky wrote: Levees and Dykes are not Star Wars technology. If the levee between Lake Ponchartrain and New Orleans had been maintained properly, this would not have happened. New Orleans is one of the most romantic and picturesque cities in America, and the birthplace of some important cultural assets. I definitely believe the Big Easy should be restored, right where it is. Also, Louisiana is a poor state- it can not afford to lose what might be it's only real tourist magnet.

But with the current "Guns not Butter" people in the political ascendency in America today, don't hold your breath!

I wondered about the levee thing myself. Especially when right after Katrina

passed, everybody was whew, okay, bad but not THAT bad. And then the

levees break... why weren't they the top-notch primo levees anywhere?

Seems like there were some jaded people somewhere... "Well, we haven't

had a big storm in x amount of years..." blah, blah, blah!

And I have never been to New Orleans. Sad to think now I never will be,

at least not like it was.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 9:05 pm

It was interesting to hear on the news tonight that the levees were built to withstand a Category 3 hurricane. Nothing more.

The Army Corps. of Engineers wanted to bolster the system and use a lot of the technology that the Dutch use, but the state and the city either didn't have the money or they didn't want to spend it on levee project.

We are all paying for that decision now.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:52 pm

Living below sea level adjacent to the sea is intrinsically dangerous. There isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t any way to guarantee that even the highly sophisticated system in the Netherlands will stand up in all conditions. They knew in New Orleans that there was a combination of conditions that would be unable to defend against. Katrina brought that combination.

People who live on barrier islands all around the continent, for instance, are intentionally placing themselves at risk. Over and over again they are flooded out. Over and over again the rest of us pay for their privilege to live there. Many of them are still coved by federal flood insurance.

There are many coastal areas that require a constant infusion of tax dollars just to keep the ocean from taking what was once hers. The Corps of Engineers spends millions annually to maintain revetments and other structures necessary to allow communities to exist where everyone knows the day will come when the sea will win.

I have to question the wisdom of rebuilding where such and intensive and expensive effort to fight against natural forces is necessary. New Orleans is an important seaport and abandoning it would be a huge loss to the whole country. Maybe they could rebuild the port facilities to withstand as much weather as possible, kowing that the day will come again when the sea wil win. Maybe the rest of the city should be relocated to higher ground.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:56 am

When the floods have receded enough to examine the full spectrum of damage I think it will seem friutless to rebuild. You cant rebuild historical buildings, you cant rebuild history. Sadly it seems a wash....no pun intended.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:12 am

Not to mention that it appears more and more intense storms are hitting the coasts these days. Are they REALLY evacuating the whole of New Oreans like they are saying on the news over here?:-2 Thats an immense logistical nightmare!

PurpleChicken · Post by **PurpleChicken** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:28 am

It's an incredible tragedy. Seems to be so much of it lately....

Tombstone wrote: It was interesting to hear on the news tonight that the levees were built to withstand a Category 3 hurricane. Nothing more.

The Army Corps. of Engineers wanted to bolster the system and use a lot of the technology that the Dutch use, but the state and the city either didn't have the money or they didn't want to spend it on levee project.

We are all paying for that decision now.

The problem with relying on levees, or indeed any structure for protection, is that you have to draw the line somewhere. You can't design something to withstand every conceivable circumstance. It would cost an absolute packet, if it's even possible. And then, just as you think you've had the most extreme event, something more extreme may come along!

Granted, perhaps designing the levee for only a Cat 3 hurricane in New Orleans was below par - but I don't know enough about the area to comment on that - but where do you draw the line. Far safer to rebuild somewhere that's not faced with this intrinsic problem.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:55 am

Scrat wrote: Move the city. It's not called a cereal bowl because of the mix of people alone. The city sits in a man made bowl 20+ feet below sea level. There will be another hurricane, there will be another break in one of the levies sometime in the future.

You have to start all over again anyway so do it right this time. Let the gators have the cereal bowl.
Sure, but where will we move it? Oh I know! Where's your home town, Scrat? Those people won't mind being evicted and their homes being bulldozed so we can rebuild N.O. there, will they?

The levees were built to withstand level 3 hurricanes because a larger one had never hit there. They were neglected for basically the same reason. Rebuild the levees. It's alot cheaper than raising the city.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:00 am

valerie wrote: I wondered about the levee thing myself. Especially when right after Katrina

passed, everybody was whew, okay, bad but not THAT bad. And then the

levees break... why weren't they the top-notch primo levees anywhere?

Seems like there were some jaded people somewhere... "Well, we haven't

had a big storm in x amount of years..." blah, blah, blah!

And I have never been to New Orleans. Sad to think now I never will be,

at least not like it was.
It's cost vs benefit. They never had a cat 5 hurricane there before. Why should they expect one generations later? We don't buy insurance for every conceivable incident because it's not likely. How many on the west coast had volcano insurance before Mt St Helen?

PurpleChicken · Post by **PurpleChicken** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:05 am

The sad reality of it all (and no-one likes to admit it) is that you really do have to put a price on a life. Someone has to make a judgement call about where to draw the line. Of course, it's more than just pure dollars, but even by considering the human loss and all the other consequences of failure, you still end up fundamentally putting a value on a life.

No consolation for those left homeless and who have lost loved ones.

My engineering head, and my more humanitarian heart always grapples with such difficult balances....

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:30 am

Accountable wrote: It's cost vs benefit. They never had a cat 5 hurricane there before. Why should they expect one generations later? We don't buy insurance for every conceivable incident because it's not likely. How many on the west coast had volcano insurance before Mt St Helen?
Good question! But when the powers that be call for evac, then thats exactly what folks should do! Everyone in the big easy should have been gone! Why did they stay? ESPECIALLY since the storm was a category 4! Didnt they remember Andrew?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:36 am

Yaay freedom. Andrew didn't hit N.O. I'm sure it was a 'could never happen to us' mentality.

I'm afraid the soil will be too toxic to rebuild.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:43 am

I cant believe what I just saw!! The whole city is under water!

actionfigurestepho · Post by **actionfigurestepho** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:10 am

Rebuild the levees and make them able to stand for a category 5. Remember, they were doing fine until the levees broke, and they only broke because they were only prepared for a category 3. It's cheaper, and let's face it, New Orleans is a city with a rich past. This tragedy can become a part of that. It will be in the past soon. This isn't like Florida, where coastal cities are leveled every summer. They rebuild and pick up the pieces every year. This happens so rarely in this city...if Florida can do it, they can too. (NON PC COMMENT ALERT, YES I AM A JERK: send some of the illegal immigrants from Florida over to New Orleans to start the reconstruction. It'll speed things up.)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:43 am

I think the EPA will have a heyday screaming about the toxic soil. I've been through a couple of base closures. We actually had to dig out tons of soil that had jet fuel leaked on it and replace it with clean. The "dirty" soil was sent to some facility where they burned & sanitized it.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:44 am

actionfigurestepho wrote: Rebuild the levees and make them able to stand for a category 5. Remember, they were doing fine until the levees broke, and they only broke because they were only prepared for a category 3. It's cheaper, and let's face it, New Orleans is a city with a rich past. This tragedy can become a part of that. It will be in the past soon. This isn't like Florida, where coastal cities are leveled every summer. They rebuild and pick up the pieces every year. This happens so rarely in this city...if Florida can do it, they can too. (NON PC COMMENT ALERT, YES I AM A JERK: send some of the illegal immigrants from Florida over to New Orleans to start the reconstruction. It'll speed things up.)
Building a system that will withstand a cat. 5 would be cost prohibitive. Not only that, hurricanes can exceed cat. 5.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:47 am

Agreed. Which makes me think the states aint seen nothing yet. With those storms coming off africa like spit balls, it's only a matter of time.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:50 am

Raven wrote: Agreed. Which makes me think the states aint seen nothing yet. With those storms coming off africa like spit balls, it's only a matter of time.
We need to be praying about that because it is all we can do. I shudder to think of what the Katrina area would look like after being hit by another hurricane or two in this season. It is possible.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:09 am

Exactly, Clint. I know what I'm talking about. I was living in Norfolk VA. when we got hit by hurricane bonnie, then daniel, then another one whose name I cant remember. But 4 of them in the same area just weeks apart! Do you remember that? Poor suffolk va. was under water for months!

911 · Post by **911** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:59 am

Absolutely! Central AL never thought we would get hit by a "hurricane" but Opal was still classified as a hurricane when it passed through here. I was scared to death. The rain, the wind and the trees coming down was horiible. I stood outside and could hear the cracking of limbs all over the neighborhood, it was eerie. After that, I could not imagine being at ground zero.

They will rebuild. But, it's cheaper in the long run to shore up the levees for a Cat 5 now than to pay again to evac and rebuild the city. I say we take away some money we are giving these other countries and fortify our coastal areas now, no matter the cost.

It seems to me the hurricanes are getting bigger and meaner than they used to be and coming more often. These last few years have been enough for me to give up the dream of living on the beach. It's a nice dream but reality has a way of slapping you in the face and forcing you to wake the f@*%k up!

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:21 am

If what I'm hearing is right, and 80% of it is under water, then I'm afraid there wont be much left to rebuild on.