Amber Sun;1112221 wrote: No, I was referring to JFK being dead. There are still many people that feel that the CIA was a part of it all. I don't think we will ever know for sure.
However I just picked up this link that became news one and a half hours ago about a 'cease fire' and Israel pulling out. Look it over and see what you think.
Hamas announces ceasefire after Israel declares truce - Yahoo! Canada News
Very interesting. Thankyou for that.
It will be an intersting week to see what occurs in the one week that Israel will stay inside Gaza. The most important concern of the cease-fire is to quite rightly let massive aid support get into Gaza. If they are denied this again, it will only be the fault of Israel and i fear that will seal their fate.
I get your point on JFK. I think it was another thread but i did say i'd not be surprised if an assasination attempt was made on Obama with Israeli connections.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
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Oscar Namechange
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Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
oscar;1112229 wrote: Very interesting. Thankyou for that.
It will be an intersting week to see what occurs in the one week that Israel will stay inside Gaza. The most important concern of the cease-fire is to quite rightly let massive aid support get into Gaza. If they are denied this again, it will only be the fault of Israel and i fear that will seal their fate.
I get your point on JFK. I think it was another thread but i did say i'd not be surprised if an assasination attempt was made on Obama with Israeli connections.
If I come across anything else I'll post the link for you. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get my blog up. (I dislike the word 'blog' LOL). color, centering and everything is not the way it's supposed to be.
Oh, by the way Oscar, I came across an interesting fact yesterday. Did you know that Obama has a brother living in China who has a string of food chains there and a Chinese wife? Apparently he is keeping his connection to Obama very low key. I thought perhaps just 'tensions' in the family but now that Obama is president I wonder how this will affect any 'tensions' between the US and China.
It will be an intersting week to see what occurs in the one week that Israel will stay inside Gaza. The most important concern of the cease-fire is to quite rightly let massive aid support get into Gaza. If they are denied this again, it will only be the fault of Israel and i fear that will seal their fate.
I get your point on JFK. I think it was another thread but i did say i'd not be surprised if an assasination attempt was made on Obama with Israeli connections.
If I come across anything else I'll post the link for you. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get my blog up. (I dislike the word 'blog' LOL). color, centering and everything is not the way it's supposed to be.
Oh, by the way Oscar, I came across an interesting fact yesterday. Did you know that Obama has a brother living in China who has a string of food chains there and a Chinese wife? Apparently he is keeping his connection to Obama very low key. I thought perhaps just 'tensions' in the family but now that Obama is president I wonder how this will affect any 'tensions' between the US and China.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1112249 wrote: If I come across anything else I'll post the link for you. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get my blog up. (I dislike the word 'blog' LOL). color, centering and everything is not the way it's supposed to be.
Oh, by the way Oscar, I came across an interesting fact yesterday. Did you know that Obama has a brother living in China who has a string of food chains there and a Chinese wife? Apparently he is keeping his connection to Obama very low key. I thought perhaps just 'tensions' in the family but now that Obama is president I wonder how this will affect any 'tensions' between the US and China.
It doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering the forums that are out there about Obama's brother and illegal aunt living in America. Do you have a link about his brother in China.
That's another big problem for Obama, the massive debt to China who's falling economy is helping the American financial crisis.
I'd like to help with the blog page but i am useless at this sort of thing. If you send a private message to a member called 'Chezzie', she is a whizz at that kind of thing.
Oh, by the way Oscar, I came across an interesting fact yesterday. Did you know that Obama has a brother living in China who has a string of food chains there and a Chinese wife? Apparently he is keeping his connection to Obama very low key. I thought perhaps just 'tensions' in the family but now that Obama is president I wonder how this will affect any 'tensions' between the US and China.
It doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering the forums that are out there about Obama's brother and illegal aunt living in America. Do you have a link about his brother in China.
That's another big problem for Obama, the massive debt to China who's falling economy is helping the American financial crisis.
I'd like to help with the blog page but i am useless at this sort of thing. If you send a private message to a member called 'Chezzie', she is a whizz at that kind of thing.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
oscar;1112261 wrote: It doesn't surprise me in the slightest considering the forums that are out there about Obama's brother and illegal aunt living in America. Do you have a link about his brother in China.
That's another big problem for Obama, the massive debt to China who's falling economy is helping the American financial crisis.
I'd like to help with the blog page but i am useless at this sort of thing. If you send a private message to a member called 'Chezzie', she is a whizz at that kind of thing.
Here is the link Oscar. There really isn't spectacular about it, it is just something that I wasn't aware of and that I find interesting considering that the Chinese are causing a very subtle disturbance in Canada and the US.
TheRecord.com - Entertainment_Wire - Barack Obama's half brother performs in China; has been dodging media
I'm not going to worry about the centering of the heading of the blog etc., Oscar. I tried to copy and paste but it didn't land correctly that's all. Besides it's the information that it holds that is important and that I try to get across to people not the color of the background.
That's another big problem for Obama, the massive debt to China who's falling economy is helping the American financial crisis.
I'd like to help with the blog page but i am useless at this sort of thing. If you send a private message to a member called 'Chezzie', she is a whizz at that kind of thing.
Here is the link Oscar. There really isn't spectacular about it, it is just something that I wasn't aware of and that I find interesting considering that the Chinese are causing a very subtle disturbance in Canada and the US.
TheRecord.com - Entertainment_Wire - Barack Obama's half brother performs in China; has been dodging media
I'm not going to worry about the centering of the heading of the blog etc., Oscar. I tried to copy and paste but it didn't land correctly that's all. Besides it's the information that it holds that is important and that I try to get across to people not the color of the background.
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Oscar Namechange
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Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1112285 wrote: Here is the link Oscar. There really isn't spectacular about it, it is just something that I wasn't aware of and that I find interesting considering that the Chinese are causing a very subtle disturbance in Canada and the US.
TheRecord.com - Entertainment_Wire - Barack Obama's half brother performs in China; has been dodging media
I'm not going to worry about the centering of the heading of the blog etc., Oscar. I tried to copy and paste but it didn't land correctly that's all. Besides it's the information that it holds that is important and that I try to get across to people not the color of the background.
Wow..... He's really talented and seems a great charity worker for children. He can only be admired for not using his brothers name to promote himself. I wonder how many more brothers and family are yet to be discovered?
TheRecord.com - Entertainment_Wire - Barack Obama's half brother performs in China; has been dodging media
I'm not going to worry about the centering of the heading of the blog etc., Oscar. I tried to copy and paste but it didn't land correctly that's all. Besides it's the information that it holds that is important and that I try to get across to people not the color of the background.
Wow..... He's really talented and seems a great charity worker for children. He can only be admired for not using his brothers name to promote himself. I wonder how many more brothers and family are yet to be discovered?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Jester;1110266 wrote: A cease fire agreement does not mean you let them bring in weapons hid in food and medicine shipments-
Israel has a full right to protect its people in anyway they see fit.
Who broke the ceasefire? Hamas did when they launched the first rocket after the ceasefire was agreed upon. A ceasefire is broken when the first perons fires, thats kind of the way it works there Bryn.
Sorry Bryn, Israel has every right to do everything they have done, out of Gaza comes nothing but hatred, and violence, they brought this on themselves, the best thing they could do is unconditional surrender, and they should do it fast so no more innocent people die.
And White Phosporous is a legal weapon the way it was used, even your country uses it in that method.
"Searching for weapons" does not excuse preventing the import of any food or medical supplies and starving the entire population. How does cutting off the electricity supply to a country (needed because you're blockading all fuel imports) prevent the acquisition of weapons?
The use of white phosphorus is legal only in battlefield starburst shells for illumination - not in civilian area or ground reaching shell and the number of casualties with phosphorus burns and the amount of film of raw phosphorus burning in the streets shows that it is being used illegally.
You justifications do not hold water. Israel do NOT have the right to defend itself by riding roughshod over the Geneva Conventions and International Law - for all your protestations that the US does not have to follow either they do exist and countries have signed up to them.
Israel has a full right to protect its people in anyway they see fit.
Who broke the ceasefire? Hamas did when they launched the first rocket after the ceasefire was agreed upon. A ceasefire is broken when the first perons fires, thats kind of the way it works there Bryn.
Sorry Bryn, Israel has every right to do everything they have done, out of Gaza comes nothing but hatred, and violence, they brought this on themselves, the best thing they could do is unconditional surrender, and they should do it fast so no more innocent people die.
And White Phosporous is a legal weapon the way it was used, even your country uses it in that method.
"Searching for weapons" does not excuse preventing the import of any food or medical supplies and starving the entire population. How does cutting off the electricity supply to a country (needed because you're blockading all fuel imports) prevent the acquisition of weapons?
The use of white phosphorus is legal only in battlefield starburst shells for illumination - not in civilian area or ground reaching shell and the number of casualties with phosphorus burns and the amount of film of raw phosphorus burning in the streets shows that it is being used illegally.
You justifications do not hold water. Israel do NOT have the right to defend itself by riding roughshod over the Geneva Conventions and International Law - for all your protestations that the US does not have to follow either they do exist and countries have signed up to them.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Jester;1110270 wrote: Oscar, your naive about military operations, actually all of you are, at least those who keep arguing this idea of proportion.
Just because the roicket attacks have decreased does not mean you stop or slow operations, it actually tells me that current operations are highly successful and I should expand and find the rest of the laucnh points and continue to dismantle thier ability to make war in any fashion.
The decrease of rockets is encouraging, it means this war is progressing towards an end when objectives are being met.
As a field commander, I'd step up my attacks as well.
This is nothing about stopping or slowing down attacks, this is about the indiscriminate killing of civilians - this is about Hamas 3, IDF 800.
Just because the roicket attacks have decreased does not mean you stop or slow operations, it actually tells me that current operations are highly successful and I should expand and find the rest of the laucnh points and continue to dismantle thier ability to make war in any fashion.
The decrease of rockets is encouraging, it means this war is progressing towards an end when objectives are being met.
As a field commander, I'd step up my attacks as well.
This is nothing about stopping or slowing down attacks, this is about the indiscriminate killing of civilians - this is about Hamas 3, IDF 800.
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Oscar Namechange
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Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Bryn Mawr;1112515 wrote: This is nothing about stopping or slowing down attacks, this is about the indiscriminate killing of civilians - this is about Hamas 3, IDF 800.
I heard Gordon Brown on the news Bryn. Did you hear him?
The cease-fire is in danger as Hamas have allegedly fired rockets due to Israel remaining in Gaza for another week and still no supplies are being allowed in,
I repeat:
Palistinian dead.............. 1,200 confirmed one third children
Israeli dead............ 25 confirmed
I heard Gordon Brown on the news Bryn. Did you hear him?
The cease-fire is in danger as Hamas have allegedly fired rockets due to Israel remaining in Gaza for another week and still no supplies are being allowed in,
I repeat:
Palistinian dead.............. 1,200 confirmed one third children
Israeli dead............ 25 confirmed
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1110277 wrote: Do you think that this might have anything to do with what Israel can get away with now? I would put in a good link but am not allowed to until I've set in 15 posts. Look up the name Michael Chertofff. Let me know what you think Oscar.
It also has a lot to do with the fact that the both Israeli defence minister (Ehud Barak) and their foreign minister (Tzipi Livni) are candidates in the upcoming elections and the ruling Kadima party were behind in the polls to the hardline Netanyahu's Likud party.
It also has a lot to do with the fact that the both Israeli defence minister (Ehud Barak) and their foreign minister (Tzipi Livni) are candidates in the upcoming elections and the ruling Kadima party were behind in the polls to the hardline Netanyahu's Likud party.
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Oscar Namechange
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Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
For Amber
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
oscar;1112518 wrote: I heard Gordon Brown on the news Bryn. Did you hear him?
The cease-fire is in danger as Hamas have allegedly fired rockets due to Israel remaining in Gaza for another week and still no supplies are being allowed in,
I repeat:
Palistinian dead.............. 1,200 confirmed one third children
Israeli dead............ 25 confirmed
No I've not - been travelling down to London for the week but, given that Israel's stated intent in starting this massacre was to so damage Hamas that they would be unable to fire a single rocket at Israel, it is tyo be expected that Hamas would fire a few off as soon as Isreal claimed victory.
As to your figures, subtract the military personnel (that Jester claims are legitimate) to show who's fighting a war and who's continuing a policy of genocide.
The cease-fire is in danger as Hamas have allegedly fired rockets due to Israel remaining in Gaza for another week and still no supplies are being allowed in,
I repeat:
Palistinian dead.............. 1,200 confirmed one third children
Israeli dead............ 25 confirmed
No I've not - been travelling down to London for the week but, given that Israel's stated intent in starting this massacre was to so damage Hamas that they would be unable to fire a single rocket at Israel, it is tyo be expected that Hamas would fire a few off as soon as Isreal claimed victory.
As to your figures, subtract the military personnel (that Jester claims are legitimate) to show who's fighting a war and who's continuing a policy of genocide.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Bryn Mawr;1112530 wrote: No I've not - been travelling down to London for the week but, given that Israel's stated intent in starting this massacre was to so damage Hamas that they would be unable to fire a single rocket at Israel, it is tyo be expected that Hamas would fire a few off as soon as Isreal claimed victory.
As to your figures, subtract the military personnel (that Jester claims are legitimate) to show who's fighting a war and who's continuing a policy of genocide.
Brown continues to condemn Israel. There is reported to be many bodies inside Gaza. The Israeli's are claiming they are military and will not retrieve them until the weeks deadline is up providing Hamas do not fire for fear of being ambushed. Hamas are claiming the bodies are Palistinian civilians. Time will tell if the Red Cross can get in there as Brown insists.
Israel claim victory and depletion of rockets yet Hamas have fired a few.
Any links i add are put down to proganda by Jester.
As to your figures, subtract the military personnel (that Jester claims are legitimate) to show who's fighting a war and who's continuing a policy of genocide.
Brown continues to condemn Israel. There is reported to be many bodies inside Gaza. The Israeli's are claiming they are military and will not retrieve them until the weeks deadline is up providing Hamas do not fire for fear of being ambushed. Hamas are claiming the bodies are Palistinian civilians. Time will tell if the Red Cross can get in there as Brown insists.
Israel claim victory and depletion of rockets yet Hamas have fired a few.
Any links i add are put down to proganda by Jester.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
[QUOTE=oscar;1112525]For Amber
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE
Thanks for the link Oscar. I'm sure getting a crash course in politics in this thread. In truth though my strong point is ancient religious history not politics. Keeping this in mind you will understand why the following paragraph jumped out at me. I don't believe it's possible that the following speakers don't know their own genetic history.
Expressions by prominent Likud members
* In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years."[4]
* In remarks at the Knesset in december 2004, Likud member Yehiel Hazan repeatedly likened Palestinians to "worms" and stated that the Palestinians are a nation of "murderers" and "terrorists."[5]
* In a New Yorker magazine interview Moshe Feiglin, leader of the right wing Manhigut Yehudit faction of the Likud Central Committee, is quoted saying “You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches.â€[6]
I was going to just state what the following links contain but then I thought some individuals here may want to actually see this information for him/herself.
Here is one link. Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
LOL, Oscar, their religions are tied together even tighter than their genetics. Now they not only look cruel but stupid also.
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE
Thanks for the link Oscar. I'm sure getting a crash course in politics in this thread. In truth though my strong point is ancient religious history not politics. Keeping this in mind you will understand why the following paragraph jumped out at me. I don't believe it's possible that the following speakers don't know their own genetic history.
Expressions by prominent Likud members
* In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years."[4]
* In remarks at the Knesset in december 2004, Likud member Yehiel Hazan repeatedly likened Palestinians to "worms" and stated that the Palestinians are a nation of "murderers" and "terrorists."[5]
* In a New Yorker magazine interview Moshe Feiglin, leader of the right wing Manhigut Yehudit faction of the Likud Central Committee, is quoted saying “You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches.â€[6]
I was going to just state what the following links contain but then I thought some individuals here may want to actually see this information for him/herself.
Here is one link. Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
LOL, Oscar, their religions are tied together even tighter than their genetics. Now they not only look cruel but stupid also.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1112709 wrote: [QUOTE=oscar;1112525]For Amber
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE
Thanks for the link Oscar. I'm sure getting a crash course in politics in this thread. In truth though my strong point is ancient religious history not politics. Keeping this in mind you will understand why the following paragraph jumped out at me. I don't believe it's possible that the following speakers don't know their own genetic history.
Expressions by prominent Likud members
* In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years."[4]
* In remarks at the Knesset in december 2004, Likud member Yehiel Hazan repeatedly likened Palestinians to "worms" and stated that the Palestinians are a nation of "murderers" and "terrorists."[5]
* In a New Yorker magazine interview Moshe Feiglin, leader of the right wing Manhigut Yehudit faction of the Likud Central Committee, is quoted saying “You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches.”[6]
I was going to just state what the following links contain but then I thought some individuals here may want to actually see this information for him/herself.
Here is one link. Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
LOL, Oscar, their religions are tied together even tighter than their genetics. Now they not only look cruel but stupid also.
I'm about to have a cup of tea and a good read. Genetics....now your talking!!!
Thr first law of segregation states that any gamet male or female can carry the determinate gene of only one pair of alternative characteristics.
The second law of free assortment states that in a cross involving one pair of alternative characteristics, the characteristics will segregate in the second fillial generation in relative proportions of nine to three to three to one.
(Einstein).
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE
Thanks for the link Oscar. I'm sure getting a crash course in politics in this thread. In truth though my strong point is ancient religious history not politics. Keeping this in mind you will understand why the following paragraph jumped out at me. I don't believe it's possible that the following speakers don't know their own genetic history.
Expressions by prominent Likud members
* In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years."[4]
* In remarks at the Knesset in december 2004, Likud member Yehiel Hazan repeatedly likened Palestinians to "worms" and stated that the Palestinians are a nation of "murderers" and "terrorists."[5]
* In a New Yorker magazine interview Moshe Feiglin, leader of the right wing Manhigut Yehudit faction of the Likud Central Committee, is quoted saying “You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches.”[6]
I was going to just state what the following links contain but then I thought some individuals here may want to actually see this information for him/herself.
Here is one link. Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
LOL, Oscar, their religions are tied together even tighter than their genetics. Now they not only look cruel but stupid also.
I'm about to have a cup of tea and a good read. Genetics....now your talking!!!
Thr first law of segregation states that any gamet male or female can carry the determinate gene of only one pair of alternative characteristics.
The second law of free assortment states that in a cross involving one pair of alternative characteristics, the characteristics will segregate in the second fillial generation in relative proportions of nine to three to three to one.
(Einstein).
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1112709 wrote: [QUOTE=oscar;1112525]For Amber
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE
Thanks for the link Oscar. I'm sure getting a crash course in politics in this thread. In truth though my strong point is ancient religious history not politics. Keeping this in mind you will understand why the following paragraph jumped out at me. I don't believe it's possible that the following speakers don't know their own genetic history.
Expressions by prominent Likud members
* In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years."[4]
* In remarks at the Knesset in december 2004, Likud member Yehiel Hazan repeatedly likened Palestinians to "worms" and stated that the Palestinians are a nation of "murderers" and "terrorists."[5]
* In a New Yorker magazine interview Moshe Feiglin, leader of the right wing Manhigut Yehudit faction of the Likud Central Committee, is quoted saying “You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches.”[6]
I was going to just state what the following links contain but then I thought some individuals here may want to actually see this information for him/herself.
Here is one link. Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
LOL, Oscar, their religions are tied together even tighter than their genetics. Now they not only look cruel but stupid also.
What a bigoted racist view of Palistinians and Arabs as a whole they have? Is this not what the Jews believe the Nazi party were doing to them?
This came in about two hours ago. Our Prime Minister Gordon Brown has pledged anothe £20 million of British aid.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090118/twl ... f21e0.html
He makes me proud to be British
Likud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE
Thanks for the link Oscar. I'm sure getting a crash course in politics in this thread. In truth though my strong point is ancient religious history not politics. Keeping this in mind you will understand why the following paragraph jumped out at me. I don't believe it's possible that the following speakers don't know their own genetic history.
Expressions by prominent Likud members
* In February 2004 Likud member and deputy defense minister Ze'ev Boim, speaking at a memorial ceremony, said "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness." In a comment, Likud member of Knesset Yehiel Hazan supported Boim's statements: "I think this it is in their blood. It is something genetic. I have not researched this, but there is no other way to explain this,". He added "Don't believe an Arab, even one who has been in the grave for 40 years."[4]
* In remarks at the Knesset in december 2004, Likud member Yehiel Hazan repeatedly likened Palestinians to "worms" and stated that the Palestinians are a nation of "murderers" and "terrorists."[5]
* In a New Yorker magazine interview Moshe Feiglin, leader of the right wing Manhigut Yehudit faction of the Likud Central Committee, is quoted saying “You can’t teach a monkey to speak and you can’t teach an Arab to be democratic. You’re dealing with a culture of thieves and robbers. Muhammad, their prophet, was a robber and a killer and a liar. The Arab destroys everything he touches.”[6]
I was going to just state what the following links contain but then I thought some individuals here may want to actually see this information for him/herself.
Here is one link. Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
LOL, Oscar, their religions are tied together even tighter than their genetics. Now they not only look cruel but stupid also.
What a bigoted racist view of Palistinians and Arabs as a whole they have? Is this not what the Jews believe the Nazi party were doing to them?
This came in about two hours ago. Our Prime Minister Gordon Brown has pledged anothe £20 million of British aid.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090118/twl ... f21e0.html
He makes me proud to be British
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
When will they learn?
YouTube - Stranglers - Shah Shah a go go
YouTube - Stranglers - Shah Shah a go go
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1112831 wrote: You know what? No one has mentioned Egypts role in this. Apparently the souther border of Gaza is closed, why don't they let the civvies through?
I know that Egypts leadership is bought and paid for by Israel and the US but really, they have guilt in this too. What are the Palestinians living there doing? I have heard little if anything.
The US agreed to provide technical and intelligence assistance on Egypt's border with Gaza yesterday to prevent weapons smuggling by Hamas as part of diplomatic moves to secure a ceasefire in Israel's three-week assault on the Palestinian enclave.
Israel said it believed the conflict was in the "final act" as talks in Washington and Cairo edged closer to a truce. But important differences remained and it was not clear if an agreement would be finalised this weekend to halt fighting that has cost more than 1,100 lives and destroyed much of Gaza's public infrastructure.
Israel's security cabinet is expected to consider an Egyptian ceasefire proposal this evening, including whether Israel should unilaterally call a truce or consider withdrawing its troops.
Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, and Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, signed the agreement for Washington to provide technical and intelligence co-operation, as well as logistical support, for monitors on the Egypt-Gaza border – a move designed to address one of the principal Israeli demands: that any truce with Hamas includes measures to stop it from rearming by smuggling weapons.
Israel said the agreement would commit the US and Nato to track and intercept weapons shipments to Gaza from Iran or anywhere else. Rice said it was designed to ensure Gaza would "never again be used as a launching pad against Israeli cities". The US was seeking "a sustainable end to hostilities, rather than one that collapses in a few days or weeks".
The deal could lead to the reopening of Gaza's border with Egypt, a key Hamas demand. The Islamist group also wants Gaza's crossings into Israel reopened after three years of economic blockade. This is crucial to reviving the territory's economy but Israel is reluctant to allow it.
Egyptian officials have held talks in Cairo separately with Hamas and Israeli negotiators in an effort to overcome the main sticking points, including how long a ceasefire would last. Hamas is prepared to commit to a year and then consider renewing it. Israel wants it to be indefinite.
Some senior Israeli officials were optimistic. "The conditions have not come to fruition yet," said a security cabinet member, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer. "But this could well happen late on Saturday and we can put this story behind us." There were conflicting messages from Hamas. Its exiled political leader, Khaled Meshal, told Arab leaders in Qatar that his organisation would not accept Israeli conditions and would continue to fight until Israel ended its attack.
Whatever the agreement, both sides will want to claim victory. Israel will say that an end to the rocket fire and a halt to weapons smuggling is what it set out to achieve with its attack.
Hamas will say it was fighting to lift the blockade and that any agreement to end the rocket attacks was voluntary because Israel failed to stop them. Hundreds were fired despite the Israel's reoccupation of swaths of the Gaza Strip and heavy bombardment. The group fired at least 13 rockets into Israel yesterday alone.
Israel may have gone a long way towards achieving another objective: to damage Hamas's control in Gaza with the long-term goal of toppling it from power.
The group has proven to be militarily weaker than it had threatened, inflicting relatively few *casualties. When the fighting ends , many Gazans may wonder whether the price exacted by Israel was worth the confrontation. The physical damage to the Gaza Strip is estimated at $1.4bn (£954m). Western donors, not Israel, are likely to pick up the reconstruction bill. An Israeli tank shell killed two children in Beit Lahiya yesterday; and air strikes killed three other Palestinians.
I know that Egypts leadership is bought and paid for by Israel and the US but really, they have guilt in this too. What are the Palestinians living there doing? I have heard little if anything.
The US agreed to provide technical and intelligence assistance on Egypt's border with Gaza yesterday to prevent weapons smuggling by Hamas as part of diplomatic moves to secure a ceasefire in Israel's three-week assault on the Palestinian enclave.
Israel said it believed the conflict was in the "final act" as talks in Washington and Cairo edged closer to a truce. But important differences remained and it was not clear if an agreement would be finalised this weekend to halt fighting that has cost more than 1,100 lives and destroyed much of Gaza's public infrastructure.
Israel's security cabinet is expected to consider an Egyptian ceasefire proposal this evening, including whether Israel should unilaterally call a truce or consider withdrawing its troops.
Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, and Tzipi Livni, Israel's foreign minister, signed the agreement for Washington to provide technical and intelligence co-operation, as well as logistical support, for monitors on the Egypt-Gaza border – a move designed to address one of the principal Israeli demands: that any truce with Hamas includes measures to stop it from rearming by smuggling weapons.
Israel said the agreement would commit the US and Nato to track and intercept weapons shipments to Gaza from Iran or anywhere else. Rice said it was designed to ensure Gaza would "never again be used as a launching pad against Israeli cities". The US was seeking "a sustainable end to hostilities, rather than one that collapses in a few days or weeks".
The deal could lead to the reopening of Gaza's border with Egypt, a key Hamas demand. The Islamist group also wants Gaza's crossings into Israel reopened after three years of economic blockade. This is crucial to reviving the territory's economy but Israel is reluctant to allow it.
Egyptian officials have held talks in Cairo separately with Hamas and Israeli negotiators in an effort to overcome the main sticking points, including how long a ceasefire would last. Hamas is prepared to commit to a year and then consider renewing it. Israel wants it to be indefinite.
Some senior Israeli officials were optimistic. "The conditions have not come to fruition yet," said a security cabinet member, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer. "But this could well happen late on Saturday and we can put this story behind us." There were conflicting messages from Hamas. Its exiled political leader, Khaled Meshal, told Arab leaders in Qatar that his organisation would not accept Israeli conditions and would continue to fight until Israel ended its attack.
Whatever the agreement, both sides will want to claim victory. Israel will say that an end to the rocket fire and a halt to weapons smuggling is what it set out to achieve with its attack.
Hamas will say it was fighting to lift the blockade and that any agreement to end the rocket attacks was voluntary because Israel failed to stop them. Hundreds were fired despite the Israel's reoccupation of swaths of the Gaza Strip and heavy bombardment. The group fired at least 13 rockets into Israel yesterday alone.
Israel may have gone a long way towards achieving another objective: to damage Hamas's control in Gaza with the long-term goal of toppling it from power.
The group has proven to be militarily weaker than it had threatened, inflicting relatively few *casualties. When the fighting ends , many Gazans may wonder whether the price exacted by Israel was worth the confrontation. The physical damage to the Gaza Strip is estimated at $1.4bn (£954m). Western donors, not Israel, are likely to pick up the reconstruction bill. An Israeli tank shell killed two children in Beit Lahiya yesterday; and air strikes killed three other Palestinians.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1112787 wrote: Jews and Palestinians are both Semitic people. Good find Amber but unfortunately you will find that the people who you are quoting are themselves terrorists and the representatives of terrorists.
LOL scat, as I stated to Oscar;
Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
No, scat, there is far too much information on the Internet about the connection of genetic backgrounds among the Semitic people. But in truth what I know about genetics comes from an elective course while in university.
Where I did come by my information is from years of studying ancient religions and correlating the commonalities that threads through them all. Tracing the roots of people as they wandered, inter-bred, acquired the gods/esses of other belief systems etc. The university and main library dreaded to see me coming because they knew that when I left books would be scattered all over the floor after hours of intensive searching. As I followed the gods/esses I had to follow the people, shipping lines, geographical locations etc. I ended up drawing maps of Roman occupations, their means of controlling the populations they subdued, and the basis of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Christianity and how and why Mohammad came into being as a prophet. I had to go into astronomy, geology, and the various sciences all the while correlating my acquired information with the various religious belief systems.
As I had stated to Oscar earlier, the above is my strong point. But I am really enjoying this thread because I feel like I am getting a crash course in politics. Added to this I think you are all real great. It is the banter between you all that actually makes this thread come to life. As you have no doubt learned in psychology 101 the very act of challenge requires one to not only defend their stance but to also seek out further information to hold their position. I will truly be sorry when this thread comes to an end.
LOL scat, as I stated to Oscar;
Otherwise just google (Palestinian/genetic background) keeping in mind that some geneticists have a Jewish background and want to keep elite status.
No, scat, there is far too much information on the Internet about the connection of genetic backgrounds among the Semitic people. But in truth what I know about genetics comes from an elective course while in university.
Where I did come by my information is from years of studying ancient religions and correlating the commonalities that threads through them all. Tracing the roots of people as they wandered, inter-bred, acquired the gods/esses of other belief systems etc. The university and main library dreaded to see me coming because they knew that when I left books would be scattered all over the floor after hours of intensive searching. As I followed the gods/esses I had to follow the people, shipping lines, geographical locations etc. I ended up drawing maps of Roman occupations, their means of controlling the populations they subdued, and the basis of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Christianity and how and why Mohammad came into being as a prophet. I had to go into astronomy, geology, and the various sciences all the while correlating my acquired information with the various religious belief systems.
As I had stated to Oscar earlier, the above is my strong point. But I am really enjoying this thread because I feel like I am getting a crash course in politics. Added to this I think you are all real great. It is the banter between you all that actually makes this thread come to life. As you have no doubt learned in psychology 101 the very act of challenge requires one to not only defend their stance but to also seek out further information to hold their position. I will truly be sorry when this thread comes to an end.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
We are a big family on this FG but the political threads do get a little heated. Us British are not averse to the odd moment of sarcasm either Amber.
Your knowledge is awesome.
And don't fear..... we can make a thread last, as long as people are interested in the subject.
:)
Your knowledge is awesome.
And don't fear..... we can make a thread last, as long as people are interested in the subject.
:)At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
oscar;1112795 wrote: [QUOTE=Amber Sun;1112709]
What a bigoted racist view of Palistinians and Arabs as a whole they have? Is this not what the Jews believe the Nazi party were doing to them?
This came in about two hours ago. Our Prime Minister Gordon Brown has pledged anothe £20 million of British aid.
Brown arrives in Egypt for Gaza talks - Yahoo! News UK
He makes me proud to be British
He makes me proud to be British
LOL Oscar, you have no need to ever feel ashamed, (except where the Irish are concerned)::)
What a bigoted racist view of Palistinians and Arabs as a whole they have? Is this not what the Jews believe the Nazi party were doing to them?
This came in about two hours ago. Our Prime Minister Gordon Brown has pledged anothe £20 million of British aid.
Brown arrives in Egypt for Gaza talks - Yahoo! News UK
He makes me proud to be British
He makes me proud to be British
LOL Oscar, you have no need to ever feel ashamed, (except where the Irish are concerned)::)
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
oscar;1112842 wrote: We are a big family on this FG but the political threads do get a little heated. Us British are not averse to the odd moment of sarcasm either Amber.
Your knowledge is awesome.
And don't fear..... we can make a thread last, as long as people are interested in the subject.:)
And don't fear..... we can make a thread last, as long as people are interested in the subject.
Oh I'm very interested Oscar.
British sarcastic? Never.:) Not us Canadians either, :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Your knowledge is awesome.
And don't fear..... we can make a thread last, as long as people are interested in the subject.
:)And don't fear..... we can make a thread last, as long as people are interested in the subject.
Oh I'm very interested Oscar.
British sarcastic? Never.
:) Not us Canadians either, :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1112861 wrote: I take great interest in anthropology and history, especially the history of warfare.
Anyway an interesting little factoid is that in the year 0 AD there was about 360 million people on earth, the scientific estimate anyway. 10000 years ago there were about 4 million, mostly in the warmer climates like the ME which was a much different place than it is now.
Were all related but I'll tell you what. We have some helacious family feuds. G nite.
Does that mean Jester is descended from an Arab? :yh_rotfl
Goodnight Scrat. See you tomorrow. :-6:-6
Anyway an interesting little factoid is that in the year 0 AD there was about 360 million people on earth, the scientific estimate anyway. 10000 years ago there were about 4 million, mostly in the warmer climates like the ME which was a much different place than it is now.
Were all related but I'll tell you what. We have some helacious family feuds. G nite.
Does that mean Jester is descended from an Arab? :yh_rotfl
Goodnight Scrat. See you tomorrow. :-6:-6
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1112972 wrote: Yes and more so than he would ever admit. 
Here's the latest. I guess the Palestinians have called a truce. Rockets are still landing in Israel but for the most part the fighting has stopped. Israel has gotten nowhere. The truce is set up to fail, Israel will not leave as Hamas demands and Hamas will not stop tossing rockets.
It seems to me that the Israeli politicians are afraid of a lot of coffins coming home with elections coming up. That's what this is partly about, showing who is tough enough, showing off for the Israeli extremist vote. There's also the money factor. Israel is not going to pay for this but certain people in the defence industry will make a mint.
Well said.
It hacks me off that my Prime Minister is the first to fly out to the ME and pledge £20 million of British humanitarian aid and yet i see nothing from America. The very terrorists who have caused us to have to re-build Gaza now are not paying a scroat towards it.
Here's the latest. I guess the Palestinians have called a truce. Rockets are still landing in Israel but for the most part the fighting has stopped. Israel has gotten nowhere. The truce is set up to fail, Israel will not leave as Hamas demands and Hamas will not stop tossing rockets.
It seems to me that the Israeli politicians are afraid of a lot of coffins coming home with elections coming up. That's what this is partly about, showing who is tough enough, showing off for the Israeli extremist vote. There's also the money factor. Israel is not going to pay for this but certain people in the defence industry will make a mint.
Well said.
It hacks me off that my Prime Minister is the first to fly out to the ME and pledge £20 million of British humanitarian aid and yet i see nothing from America. The very terrorists who have caused us to have to re-build Gaza now are not paying a scroat towards it.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
oscar;1113697 wrote: Well said.
It hacks me off that my Prime Minister is the first to fly out to the ME and pledge £20 million of British humanitarian aid and yet i see nothing from America. The very terrorists who have caused us to have to re-build Gaza now are not paying a scroat towards it. Gee, who do you think runs THE RED CROSS? Who do you think supplies the Red Crescent? Gee, wonder what that US Carrier was doing offloading medical supplies that went straight to the Gaza strip.
I know I'm coming in late on this thread but it galls me that no one seems to think it was wrong of Hamas to endanger their civilians by ONCE AGAIN throwing a cease fire out the window and tossing the first rocket attack. No one seems to think the Muslim declaration to eliminate the Jews off the face of the earth is a narrow, self-flagellation racist objective. No one seems to want to hold Hamas accountable for THEIR actions. NO one seems to think its anyone's fault but the Jews.
What do you think they should do, sit back and let Hamas continue to import weapons and rockets from Pakistan and other friendly countries until they feel confident and brave enough to take shots at Israel again? Until they breed enough boys, widows and men to sneak accros the Isralie borders with suicide bombers and death squads again.
Gee, what do you all suggest the Israelis do. Turn the other cheek. They aren't Christians you know, they are Jews.
Can anyone give a history of the Jews? Anyone here know how they have been disenfranchised, exterminated, eliminated, assimilated, stomped on and despised, raped and murdered through the ages by Muslim and Christian as well as Roman and many more, simply because they dared to fight for and adhere to Judaism and seek readmittance to their homeland as promised by their Jewish God? Anyone here read or seen how the average Jewish citizen in Isreal would rather live in peace with the Palistinans, all Muslims, Christians and any other religion?
Religion, the spice of life. Without it man might just fall into a peaceful, graceful, companionable existence, eh? Then what would we do?
This "WAR" isn't any war. It is a relgious Jihad that is as old as time and will never end until the instigators have been wiped out. Who insitagted this whole thing? Anyone?
It hacks me off that my Prime Minister is the first to fly out to the ME and pledge £20 million of British humanitarian aid and yet i see nothing from America. The very terrorists who have caused us to have to re-build Gaza now are not paying a scroat towards it. Gee, who do you think runs THE RED CROSS? Who do you think supplies the Red Crescent? Gee, wonder what that US Carrier was doing offloading medical supplies that went straight to the Gaza strip.
I know I'm coming in late on this thread but it galls me that no one seems to think it was wrong of Hamas to endanger their civilians by ONCE AGAIN throwing a cease fire out the window and tossing the first rocket attack. No one seems to think the Muslim declaration to eliminate the Jews off the face of the earth is a narrow, self-flagellation racist objective. No one seems to want to hold Hamas accountable for THEIR actions. NO one seems to think its anyone's fault but the Jews.
What do you think they should do, sit back and let Hamas continue to import weapons and rockets from Pakistan and other friendly countries until they feel confident and brave enough to take shots at Israel again? Until they breed enough boys, widows and men to sneak accros the Isralie borders with suicide bombers and death squads again.
Gee, what do you all suggest the Israelis do. Turn the other cheek. They aren't Christians you know, they are Jews.
Can anyone give a history of the Jews? Anyone here know how they have been disenfranchised, exterminated, eliminated, assimilated, stomped on and despised, raped and murdered through the ages by Muslim and Christian as well as Roman and many more, simply because they dared to fight for and adhere to Judaism and seek readmittance to their homeland as promised by their Jewish God? Anyone here read or seen how the average Jewish citizen in Isreal would rather live in peace with the Palistinans, all Muslims, Christians and any other religion?
Religion, the spice of life. Without it man might just fall into a peaceful, graceful, companionable existence, eh? Then what would we do?
This "WAR" isn't any war. It is a relgious Jihad that is as old as time and will never end until the instigators have been wiped out. Who insitagted this whole thing? Anyone?
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
double helix;1113720 wrote: Gee, who do you think runs THE RED CROSS? Who do you think supplies the Red Crescent? Gee, wonder what that US Carrier was doing offloading medical supplies that went straight to the Gaza strip.
I know I'm coming in late on this thread but it galls me that no one seems to think it was wrong of Hamas to endanger their civilians by ONCE AGAIN throwing a cease fire out the window and tossing the first rocket attack. No one seems to think the Muslim declaration to eliminate the Jews off the face of the earth is a narrow, self-flagellation racist objective. No one seems to want to hold Hamas accountable for THEIR actions. NO one seems to think its anyone's fault but the Jews.
What do you think they should do, sit back and let Hamas continue to import weapons and rockets from Pakistan and other friendly countries until they feel confident and brave enough to take shots at Israel again? Until they breed enough boys, widows and men to sneak accros the Isralie borders with suicide bombers and death squads again.
Gee, what do you all suggest the Israelis do. Turn the other cheek. They aren't Christians you know, they are Jews.
Can anyone give a history of the Jews? Anyone here know how they have been disenfranchised, exterminated, eliminated, assimilated, stomped on and despised, raped and murdered through the ages by Muslim and Christian as well as Roman and many more, simply because they dared to fight for and adhere to Judaism and seek readmittance to their homeland as promised by their Jewish God? Anyone here read or seen how the average Jewish citizen in Isreal would rather live in peace with the Palistinans, all Muslims, Christians and any other religion?
Religion, the spice of life. Without it man might just fall into a peaceful, graceful, companionable existence, eh? Then what would we do?
This "WAR" isn't any war. It is a relgious Jihad that is as old as time and will never end until the instigators have been wiped out. Who insitagted this whole thing? Anyone?
Have you actually read all the posts on here before writing this?
Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas leader in Gaza, made the boldest pronouncement, hailing the ceasefire as nothing less than a "great victory" for our "entire people". Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, was careful to avoid any hint of bombast; yet he still asserted that all of his country's goals had been "fully achieved, and more so".
In the aftermath of battle, the rhetoric of both leaders counts for little. Deciding who won means identifying the side which came closest to achieving its aims.
Israel's central objective was to prevent Palestinian fighters from using Gaza as a launch-pad for rocket attacks on its southern cities. With the onset of a ceasefire, the missiles have stopped landing.
But the acid test will be whether this lull turns out to be temporary or long-standing. Last year, 1,795 rockets and 1,755 mortar bombs were fired out of Gaza. If Mr Olmert has defeated Hamas, the corresponding totals for 2009 should be far lower. If not, Israel's campaign will have measurably failed.
So Mr Olmert's claims of success, however cautiously expressed, are still premature. The real test will come in the months ahead.
Two vital factors will decide whether Palestinian rocket attacks do cease. The first is the military capabilities retained by Hamas in the teeth of Israel's offensive. Mr Olmert stressed that Israel's armed forces have destroyed stockpiles of missiles, along with the factories used to make the weapons and the tunnels employed to smuggle their components into Gaza.
He added that "many" Hamas fighters had been killed, including some of the movement's senior figures. The most prominent casualty was Said Sayyam, the Hamas interior minister, who died in an Israeli air strike.
Yet the movement will almost certainly be able to recruit more fighters to fill the gaps in its rank-and-file. As for the upper echelons, both of the key Hamas leaders in Gaza – Mahmoud Zahar, the former foreign minister, and Mr Haniyeh himself – have survived the onslaught.
The dilemma they now face raises the second factor that will decide the outcome of Israel's campaign. Mr Olmert's military commanders have sought to drive home to Hamas their country's power of "deterrence".
Israel's armed forces place great emphasis on this concept. The calm which has prevailed on their northern frontier with Lebanon since the war of 2006 is, they argue, an example of successful deterrence, with Hizbollah, the radical Shia movement, choosing to hold its fire for fear of Israel's retaliation. Israeli commanders hope that Gaza's ordeal, with almost 1,300 Palestinians killed, will compel the Hamas leadership to show the same restraint.
If Mr Haniyeh and Mr Zahar are duly deterred from allowing any more rocket attacks, Israel's strategy will have succeeded.
The options facing Hamas may, in any case, be radically constrained. If effective action is now taken to stop the smuggling of weapons across Gaza's border with Egypt, Hamas may be prevented from rearming. This would render it extremely difficult for its leaders to restart a rocket offensive regardless of whether they are "deterred" or not.
Meanwhile, the military wing of Hamas must face the reality that Israel invaded Gaza with ease and suffered minimal losses. Palestinian fighters killed only six Israeli troops. In a similar operation in Jenin refugee camp on the West Bank in 2002, 23 Israeli soldiers died
In military terms, Hamas certainly did not win this conflict. Whether Israel was the victor, however, will only become clear in the months ahead.
The Red Cross is a voluntary organisation dependent mostly on donations.
The £20 million pledged by MY Prime Minister is GOVERNMENT money.
I don't see any American government money or Israeli on the table.
I know I'm coming in late on this thread but it galls me that no one seems to think it was wrong of Hamas to endanger their civilians by ONCE AGAIN throwing a cease fire out the window and tossing the first rocket attack. No one seems to think the Muslim declaration to eliminate the Jews off the face of the earth is a narrow, self-flagellation racist objective. No one seems to want to hold Hamas accountable for THEIR actions. NO one seems to think its anyone's fault but the Jews.
What do you think they should do, sit back and let Hamas continue to import weapons and rockets from Pakistan and other friendly countries until they feel confident and brave enough to take shots at Israel again? Until they breed enough boys, widows and men to sneak accros the Isralie borders with suicide bombers and death squads again.
Gee, what do you all suggest the Israelis do. Turn the other cheek. They aren't Christians you know, they are Jews.
Can anyone give a history of the Jews? Anyone here know how they have been disenfranchised, exterminated, eliminated, assimilated, stomped on and despised, raped and murdered through the ages by Muslim and Christian as well as Roman and many more, simply because they dared to fight for and adhere to Judaism and seek readmittance to their homeland as promised by their Jewish God? Anyone here read or seen how the average Jewish citizen in Isreal would rather live in peace with the Palistinans, all Muslims, Christians and any other religion?
Religion, the spice of life. Without it man might just fall into a peaceful, graceful, companionable existence, eh? Then what would we do?
This "WAR" isn't any war. It is a relgious Jihad that is as old as time and will never end until the instigators have been wiped out. Who insitagted this whole thing? Anyone?
Have you actually read all the posts on here before writing this?
Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas leader in Gaza, made the boldest pronouncement, hailing the ceasefire as nothing less than a "great victory" for our "entire people". Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, was careful to avoid any hint of bombast; yet he still asserted that all of his country's goals had been "fully achieved, and more so".
In the aftermath of battle, the rhetoric of both leaders counts for little. Deciding who won means identifying the side which came closest to achieving its aims.
Israel's central objective was to prevent Palestinian fighters from using Gaza as a launch-pad for rocket attacks on its southern cities. With the onset of a ceasefire, the missiles have stopped landing.
But the acid test will be whether this lull turns out to be temporary or long-standing. Last year, 1,795 rockets and 1,755 mortar bombs were fired out of Gaza. If Mr Olmert has defeated Hamas, the corresponding totals for 2009 should be far lower. If not, Israel's campaign will have measurably failed.
So Mr Olmert's claims of success, however cautiously expressed, are still premature. The real test will come in the months ahead.
Two vital factors will decide whether Palestinian rocket attacks do cease. The first is the military capabilities retained by Hamas in the teeth of Israel's offensive. Mr Olmert stressed that Israel's armed forces have destroyed stockpiles of missiles, along with the factories used to make the weapons and the tunnels employed to smuggle their components into Gaza.
He added that "many" Hamas fighters had been killed, including some of the movement's senior figures. The most prominent casualty was Said Sayyam, the Hamas interior minister, who died in an Israeli air strike.
Yet the movement will almost certainly be able to recruit more fighters to fill the gaps in its rank-and-file. As for the upper echelons, both of the key Hamas leaders in Gaza – Mahmoud Zahar, the former foreign minister, and Mr Haniyeh himself – have survived the onslaught.
The dilemma they now face raises the second factor that will decide the outcome of Israel's campaign. Mr Olmert's military commanders have sought to drive home to Hamas their country's power of "deterrence".
Israel's armed forces place great emphasis on this concept. The calm which has prevailed on their northern frontier with Lebanon since the war of 2006 is, they argue, an example of successful deterrence, with Hizbollah, the radical Shia movement, choosing to hold its fire for fear of Israel's retaliation. Israeli commanders hope that Gaza's ordeal, with almost 1,300 Palestinians killed, will compel the Hamas leadership to show the same restraint.
If Mr Haniyeh and Mr Zahar are duly deterred from allowing any more rocket attacks, Israel's strategy will have succeeded.
The options facing Hamas may, in any case, be radically constrained. If effective action is now taken to stop the smuggling of weapons across Gaza's border with Egypt, Hamas may be prevented from rearming. This would render it extremely difficult for its leaders to restart a rocket offensive regardless of whether they are "deterred" or not.
Meanwhile, the military wing of Hamas must face the reality that Israel invaded Gaza with ease and suffered minimal losses. Palestinian fighters killed only six Israeli troops. In a similar operation in Jenin refugee camp on the West Bank in 2002, 23 Israeli soldiers died
In military terms, Hamas certainly did not win this conflict. Whether Israel was the victor, however, will only become clear in the months ahead.
The Red Cross is a voluntary organisation dependent mostly on donations.
The £20 million pledged by MY Prime Minister is GOVERNMENT money.
I don't see any American government money or Israeli on the table.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2 ... urnalistsI call upon governments of the world to bring the Israeli government to account for war crimes under 'The Geneva Convention' for the illegal use of white phospherous to bomb and maim innocent women and children of Palistine.
Video: White phosphorus in Gaza: the victims | World news | guardian.co.uk
Video: White phosphorus in Gaza: the victims | World news | guardian.co.uk
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
The Red Cross is a voluntary organisation dependent mostly on donations.
The £20 million pledged by MY Prime Minister is GOVERNMENT money.
I don't see any American government money or Israeli on the table. I'm sorry Oscar, I forgot you were the governmental voice of FG. That you have inside contacts and are the know all and see all of Israeli/Palestinian politics. Its been a while since I visited FG.
Man, scroll back a few pages on the newscasts, back to the LAST confrontation between Hamas and Israel. To the LAST proclamation that goals were met and proclamations of cease fire peace making.
And dude, what difference would it make if we ANNOUNCED the medical aide we sent. BOOOOOOM! that's the difference. 20 million pledged, how much delivered? You can pledge all you want. Who's actually there giving aid? Yeah, Red Cross is many countries working together. Including U.S. citizens.
The £20 million pledged by MY Prime Minister is GOVERNMENT money.
I don't see any American government money or Israeli on the table. I'm sorry Oscar, I forgot you were the governmental voice of FG. That you have inside contacts and are the know all and see all of Israeli/Palestinian politics. Its been a while since I visited FG.
Man, scroll back a few pages on the newscasts, back to the LAST confrontation between Hamas and Israel. To the LAST proclamation that goals were met and proclamations of cease fire peace making.
And dude, what difference would it make if we ANNOUNCED the medical aide we sent. BOOOOOOM! that's the difference. 20 million pledged, how much delivered? You can pledge all you want. Who's actually there giving aid? Yeah, Red Cross is many countries working together. Including U.S. citizens.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
double helix;1113829 wrote: I'm sorry Oscar, I forgot you were the governmental voice of FG. That you have inside contacts and are the know all and see all of Isreli/Plaestinian politics.
Man, scroll back a few pages on the newscasts, back to the LAST confrontation between Hamas and Isreal. To the LAST proclimation that goals were met and proclimations of cease fire peace making.
And dude, what difference would it make if we ANNOUNCED the medical aide we sent. BOOOOOOM! that's the difference. 20 million pledged, how much delivered? You can pledge all you want. Who's actually there giving aid? Yeah, Red Cross is many countries working together. Including U.S. citizens.
Dude?? :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
I do not intend to proclaim myself as the governmental voice on FG although i can speak with some knowledge of my own Prime Minister and Government.
If you actually did some research, you would find that the British have been sending humanitarian aid to Palistine and the ME for decades. It did not start with the latest conflict.
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | UK makes £20m aid promise to Gaza
US citizens are in no doubt helping the world get aid into Gaza but it is voluntary, it is not government money. What has George Bush or Barack Obama actually given or pledged? Which one of them was in the ME for talks with the rest of the world's leaders?
Since 1971, the US government has given an average of 2 billion dollars to fund the Israeli miltary.
Did you actually look at that poor child burning from white phospherous on the link i included?
Man, scroll back a few pages on the newscasts, back to the LAST confrontation between Hamas and Isreal. To the LAST proclimation that goals were met and proclimations of cease fire peace making.
And dude, what difference would it make if we ANNOUNCED the medical aide we sent. BOOOOOOM! that's the difference. 20 million pledged, how much delivered? You can pledge all you want. Who's actually there giving aid? Yeah, Red Cross is many countries working together. Including U.S. citizens.
Dude?? :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
I do not intend to proclaim myself as the governmental voice on FG although i can speak with some knowledge of my own Prime Minister and Government.
If you actually did some research, you would find that the British have been sending humanitarian aid to Palistine and the ME for decades. It did not start with the latest conflict.
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | UK makes £20m aid promise to Gaza
US citizens are in no doubt helping the world get aid into Gaza but it is voluntary, it is not government money. What has George Bush or Barack Obama actually given or pledged? Which one of them was in the ME for talks with the rest of the world's leaders?
Since 1971, the US government has given an average of 2 billion dollars to fund the Israeli miltary.
Did you actually look at that poor child burning from white phospherous on the link i included?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Dude?? OK, so I aged myself. Forgive my overly rambunctious sarcasm. I know your not the FG voice. Just being my spicy self.
NO we have not pledged any money. We are too busy paying for the most expensive presidential inauguration in history for crying out loud, how can you expect us to pledge any money to help out two spoiled brats lobbing deadly mud clots at each other. Every few years they try to kill each other and yeah, we send the Jews weapons. Do you know anyone else who would? How is the fight going to be kept fair otherwise? SOMEONE is giving Hamas weapons too, aren't they?
OK, so I don't claim to be worldly in the news area, nor do I keep up with all the deadly facts and figures. My spouse does though, and boy do I get an ear full every other night or so. I am just sick to death of all the killing. Everywhere. Look at those places in Africa. Bodies piling up on the streets and left to rot. Suicide bombers in Iraq killing their own people as well as yours and mine.
For what? For God? For Land? For Oil? For power? For Money?
For all of the above?
No wonder God has abandoned us.
NO we have not pledged any money. We are too busy paying for the most expensive presidential inauguration in history for crying out loud, how can you expect us to pledge any money to help out two spoiled brats lobbing deadly mud clots at each other. Every few years they try to kill each other and yeah, we send the Jews weapons. Do you know anyone else who would? How is the fight going to be kept fair otherwise? SOMEONE is giving Hamas weapons too, aren't they?
OK, so I don't claim to be worldly in the news area, nor do I keep up with all the deadly facts and figures. My spouse does though, and boy do I get an ear full every other night or so. I am just sick to death of all the killing. Everywhere. Look at those places in Africa. Bodies piling up on the streets and left to rot. Suicide bombers in Iraq killing their own people as well as yours and mine.
For what? For God? For Land? For Oil? For power? For Money?
For all of the above?
No wonder God has abandoned us.
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
I am appealing to all of you very wise people to explain something to me. I have already admitted to all that I do not have the political savvy that you have, so please just be patient with me, OK?
For the last two days something keeps coming to my mind even when I'm busy with something else. The thought 'the numbers aren't right' keep playing like broken record. So this evening I re-read the entire thread trying to find what is wrong with this war (other than the beating that the Palestinians are getting). Now this is where I have a problem.
Hamas keeps firing rockets. Now as far as I know a rocket is a projectile that carries directionally like a catapult very unlike a bomb dropped from the air. The trajectory of the rocket is at a curve, rising high then slanting downward, especially at a distance. Now there are Israeli cities within reach of these rockets, yet the Israeli death and injury count is so low as to be negligible compared to the Palestinian. Why? At the slant/curve and speed that the rocket is traveling at it would shatter a building and any occupants in that building would either die or be injured. It makes no difference really if the bomb drops from above onto the building or if it smashes into the side of the building, there would still be casualties.
Now I can only come up with two reasons why the devastation to Israeli cities is so low.
1. Hamas isn't really aiming to cause devastation, but more of a harassment, not harm. If this is the reason then they would be aiming their rockets into areas of the city that is not populated (warehouses etc). Or aiming their rockets to land outside of the cities. Now, in a real war this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Hamas is Sunni and getting their artillery from Iran, predominantly Shea. Both Sunni and Shea don't care what happens to the Palestinians. Sunnie and Shea don't like Israel.
Now, is it possible, (seeing as the rockets are causing so little damage that only a very few Israelis are actually hurt), that there could be something wrong with the rockets? Hamas is not so stupid that they can't calibrate distance, speed and target. I readily admit to not knowing if rockets are supposed to explode on contact or not, but either way the Israelis should have far more injured and dead than they have. Taking this closer to home if 3 rockets were to be fired and landed smack in the middle of England or whatever city you reside in, how many dead and injured would you estimate? What would you estimate if only 3 rockets were to be aimed and landed right smack in the middle of New York City in the US or London England? I know that if even one landed in the middle of Winnipeg that the death and injury toll would be great just considering all the drivers of vehicles.
So what am I missing here? Is there something wrong with the rockets or is Hamas (Sunni) and Iran (Shea) using Palestine for some personal agenda? I know you are probably all laughing at me as you read this but honestly I really want to know so could someone please share their thoughts?
For the last two days something keeps coming to my mind even when I'm busy with something else. The thought 'the numbers aren't right' keep playing like broken record. So this evening I re-read the entire thread trying to find what is wrong with this war (other than the beating that the Palestinians are getting). Now this is where I have a problem.
Hamas keeps firing rockets. Now as far as I know a rocket is a projectile that carries directionally like a catapult very unlike a bomb dropped from the air. The trajectory of the rocket is at a curve, rising high then slanting downward, especially at a distance. Now there are Israeli cities within reach of these rockets, yet the Israeli death and injury count is so low as to be negligible compared to the Palestinian. Why? At the slant/curve and speed that the rocket is traveling at it would shatter a building and any occupants in that building would either die or be injured. It makes no difference really if the bomb drops from above onto the building or if it smashes into the side of the building, there would still be casualties.
Now I can only come up with two reasons why the devastation to Israeli cities is so low.
1. Hamas isn't really aiming to cause devastation, but more of a harassment, not harm. If this is the reason then they would be aiming their rockets into areas of the city that is not populated (warehouses etc). Or aiming their rockets to land outside of the cities. Now, in a real war this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Hamas is Sunni and getting their artillery from Iran, predominantly Shea. Both Sunni and Shea don't care what happens to the Palestinians. Sunnie and Shea don't like Israel.
Now, is it possible, (seeing as the rockets are causing so little damage that only a very few Israelis are actually hurt), that there could be something wrong with the rockets? Hamas is not so stupid that they can't calibrate distance, speed and target. I readily admit to not knowing if rockets are supposed to explode on contact or not, but either way the Israelis should have far more injured and dead than they have. Taking this closer to home if 3 rockets were to be fired and landed smack in the middle of England or whatever city you reside in, how many dead and injured would you estimate? What would you estimate if only 3 rockets were to be aimed and landed right smack in the middle of New York City in the US or London England? I know that if even one landed in the middle of Winnipeg that the death and injury toll would be great just considering all the drivers of vehicles.
So what am I missing here? Is there something wrong with the rockets or is Hamas (Sunni) and Iran (Shea) using Palestine for some personal agenda? I know you are probably all laughing at me as you read this but honestly I really want to know so could someone please share their thoughts?
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1113854 wrote: I am appealing to all of you very wise people to explain something to me. I have already admitted to all that I do not have the political savvy that you have, so please just be patient with me, OK?
For the last two days something keeps coming to my mind even when I'm busy with something else. The thought 'the numbers aren't right' keep playing like broken record. So this evening I re-read the entire thread trying to find what is wrong with this war (other than the beating that the Palestinians are getting). Now this is where I have a problem.
Hamas keeps firing rockets. Now as far as I know a rocket is a projectile that carries directionally like a catapult very unlike a bomb dropped from the air. The trajectory of the rocket is at a curve, rising high then slanting downward, especially at a distance. Now there are Israeli cities within reach of these rockets, yet the Israeli death and injury count is so low as to be negligible compared to the Palestinian. Why? At the slant/curve and speed that the rocket is traveling at it would shatter a building and any occupants in that building would either die or be injured. It makes no difference really if the bomb drops from above onto the building or if it smashes into the side of the building, there would still be casualties.
Now I can only come up with two reasons why the devastation to Israeli cities is so low.
1. Hamas isn't really aiming to cause devastation, but more of a harassment, not harm. If this is the reason then they would be aiming their rockets into areas of the city that is not populated (warehouses etc). Or aiming their rockets to land outside of the cities. Now, in a real war this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Hamas is Sunni and getting their artillery from Iran, predominantly Shea. Both Sunni and Shea don't care what happens to the Palestinians. Sunnie and Shea don't like Israel.
Now, is it possible, (seeing as the rockets are causing so little damage that only a very few Israelis are actually hurt), that there could be something wrong with the rockets? Hamas is not so stupid that they can't calibrate distance, speed and target. I readily admit to not knowing if rockets are supposed to explode on contact or not, but either way the Israelis should have far more injured and dead than they have. Taking this closer to home if 3 rockets were to be fired and landed smack in the middle of England or whatever city you reside in, how many dead and injured would you estimate? What would you estimate if only 3 rockets were to be aimed and landed right smack in the middle of New York City in the US or London England? I know that if even one landed in the middle of Winnipeg that the death and injury toll would be great just considering all the drivers of vehicles.
So what am I missing here? Is there something wrong with the rockets or is Hamas (Sunni) and Iran (Shea) using Palestine for some personal agenda? I know you are probably all laughing at me as you read this but honestly I really want to know so could someone please share their thoughts?
Hi Amber, how's it going?
The Israeli claim is that arms are being smuggled through tunnels to Hamas by Iran. Israel threatens to bomb Iran. George Bush Backs them. In fact, Hamas have acquired over the years American arms destined for Israel.
Hamas has also significantly increased its rocket capability. Following Israel's disengagement from Gaza two years ago, the group began to improve its Qassam rocket manufacturing capabilities. Since the weapons' introduction in 2001, their range has been expanded considerably from the original 2-3 kilometers. Hamas's newest Qassam rocket has an estimated range of 17 kilometers, capable of hitting the Israeli coastal town of Ashkelon. With wider tubes, these rockets can also carry a greater payload of explosives.
In addition, Hamas has reportedly smuggled Katyusha rockets into Gaza. Both the Hamas-affiliated Palestinian Information Center and the website of Hamas's Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades acknowledged -- but did not specifically confirm -- Israeli reports that Hamas has acquired at least fifty long-range Katyushas. These rockets are more advanced than the homemade Qassams and are capable of striking targets up to 20 kilometers away. Hamas does not possess nearly as many of these rockets as Hizballah, which launched up to two hundred per day during its war with Israel last summer.
Since June, Hamas has largely refrained from rocket fire against Israel while it concentrates on governing Gaza. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), however, continues to actively plan and execute attacks against Israel. According to Jane's Defence Weekly, PIJ has surpassed the Qassam Brigades in rocket manufacturing and technology. The al-Quds Brigades -- PIJ's military wing -- recently unveiled its latest rocket, dubbed the Quds-4, with a reported range of 18-22 kilometers. Overall, Israel has reported 121 rocket attacks in the two months since Hamas's takeover.
I hope some of this explains the question of why Hamas rockets cause little impact.
For the last two days something keeps coming to my mind even when I'm busy with something else. The thought 'the numbers aren't right' keep playing like broken record. So this evening I re-read the entire thread trying to find what is wrong with this war (other than the beating that the Palestinians are getting). Now this is where I have a problem.
Hamas keeps firing rockets. Now as far as I know a rocket is a projectile that carries directionally like a catapult very unlike a bomb dropped from the air. The trajectory of the rocket is at a curve, rising high then slanting downward, especially at a distance. Now there are Israeli cities within reach of these rockets, yet the Israeli death and injury count is so low as to be negligible compared to the Palestinian. Why? At the slant/curve and speed that the rocket is traveling at it would shatter a building and any occupants in that building would either die or be injured. It makes no difference really if the bomb drops from above onto the building or if it smashes into the side of the building, there would still be casualties.
Now I can only come up with two reasons why the devastation to Israeli cities is so low.
1. Hamas isn't really aiming to cause devastation, but more of a harassment, not harm. If this is the reason then they would be aiming their rockets into areas of the city that is not populated (warehouses etc). Or aiming their rockets to land outside of the cities. Now, in a real war this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Hamas is Sunni and getting their artillery from Iran, predominantly Shea. Both Sunni and Shea don't care what happens to the Palestinians. Sunnie and Shea don't like Israel.
Now, is it possible, (seeing as the rockets are causing so little damage that only a very few Israelis are actually hurt), that there could be something wrong with the rockets? Hamas is not so stupid that they can't calibrate distance, speed and target. I readily admit to not knowing if rockets are supposed to explode on contact or not, but either way the Israelis should have far more injured and dead than they have. Taking this closer to home if 3 rockets were to be fired and landed smack in the middle of England or whatever city you reside in, how many dead and injured would you estimate? What would you estimate if only 3 rockets were to be aimed and landed right smack in the middle of New York City in the US or London England? I know that if even one landed in the middle of Winnipeg that the death and injury toll would be great just considering all the drivers of vehicles.
So what am I missing here? Is there something wrong with the rockets or is Hamas (Sunni) and Iran (Shea) using Palestine for some personal agenda? I know you are probably all laughing at me as you read this but honestly I really want to know so could someone please share their thoughts?
Hi Amber, how's it going?
The Israeli claim is that arms are being smuggled through tunnels to Hamas by Iran. Israel threatens to bomb Iran. George Bush Backs them. In fact, Hamas have acquired over the years American arms destined for Israel.
Hamas has also significantly increased its rocket capability. Following Israel's disengagement from Gaza two years ago, the group began to improve its Qassam rocket manufacturing capabilities. Since the weapons' introduction in 2001, their range has been expanded considerably from the original 2-3 kilometers. Hamas's newest Qassam rocket has an estimated range of 17 kilometers, capable of hitting the Israeli coastal town of Ashkelon. With wider tubes, these rockets can also carry a greater payload of explosives.
In addition, Hamas has reportedly smuggled Katyusha rockets into Gaza. Both the Hamas-affiliated Palestinian Information Center and the website of Hamas's Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades acknowledged -- but did not specifically confirm -- Israeli reports that Hamas has acquired at least fifty long-range Katyushas. These rockets are more advanced than the homemade Qassams and are capable of striking targets up to 20 kilometers away. Hamas does not possess nearly as many of these rockets as Hizballah, which launched up to two hundred per day during its war with Israel last summer.
Since June, Hamas has largely refrained from rocket fire against Israel while it concentrates on governing Gaza. Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), however, continues to actively plan and execute attacks against Israel. According to Jane's Defence Weekly, PIJ has surpassed the Qassam Brigades in rocket manufacturing and technology. The al-Quds Brigades -- PIJ's military wing -- recently unveiled its latest rocket, dubbed the Quds-4, with a reported range of 18-22 kilometers. Overall, Israel has reported 121 rocket attacks in the two months since Hamas's takeover.
I hope some of this explains the question of why Hamas rockets cause little impact.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
double helix;1113842 wrote: OK, so I aged myself. Forgive my overly rambunctious sarcasm. I know your not the FG voice. Just being my spicy self.
NO we have not pledged any money. We are too busy paying for the most expensive presidential inauguration in history for crying out loud, how can you expect us to pledge any money to help out two spoiled brats lobbing deadly mud clots at each other. Every few years they try to kill each other and yeah, we send the Jews weapons. Do you know anyone else who would? How is the fight going to be kept fair otherwise? SOMEONE is giving Hamas weapons too, aren't they?
OK, so I don't claim to be worldly in the news area, nor do I keep up with all the deadly facts and figures. My spouse does though, and boy do I get an ear full every other night or so. I am just sick to death of all the killing. Everywhere. Look at those places in Africa. Bodies piling up on the streets and left to rot. Suicide bombers in Iraq killing their own people as well as yours and mine.
For what? For God? For Land? For Oil? For power? For Money?
For all of the above?
No wonder God has abandoned us.
The Presidential Inaugaration is no excuse for not contributing towards aid to re-build hospitals and get vital food, water and power back into Gaza.
What would you do if you were British and your Royal Family were having ceromonies every other day at the tax payers expense?
If we can give humnaitarian aid, every country can. We are facing a recession here. This is the time if anything, we should be keeping our money and not giving it away.
Are you really so insular that your countries own financial needs come way up high before children dying in a war torn zone?
George Bush invaded Iraq illegally along with Britain. Blame him, his father and Tony Blair.
NO we have not pledged any money. We are too busy paying for the most expensive presidential inauguration in history for crying out loud, how can you expect us to pledge any money to help out two spoiled brats lobbing deadly mud clots at each other. Every few years they try to kill each other and yeah, we send the Jews weapons. Do you know anyone else who would? How is the fight going to be kept fair otherwise? SOMEONE is giving Hamas weapons too, aren't they?
OK, so I don't claim to be worldly in the news area, nor do I keep up with all the deadly facts and figures. My spouse does though, and boy do I get an ear full every other night or so. I am just sick to death of all the killing. Everywhere. Look at those places in Africa. Bodies piling up on the streets and left to rot. Suicide bombers in Iraq killing their own people as well as yours and mine.
For what? For God? For Land? For Oil? For power? For Money?
For all of the above?
No wonder God has abandoned us.
The Presidential Inaugaration is no excuse for not contributing towards aid to re-build hospitals and get vital food, water and power back into Gaza.
What would you do if you were British and your Royal Family were having ceromonies every other day at the tax payers expense?
If we can give humnaitarian aid, every country can. We are facing a recession here. This is the time if anything, we should be keeping our money and not giving it away.
Are you really so insular that your countries own financial needs come way up high before children dying in a war torn zone?
George Bush invaded Iraq illegally along with Britain. Blame him, his father and Tony Blair.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
double helix
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 pm
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1113854 wrote: I am appealing to all of you very wise people to explain something to me. I have already admitted to all that I do not have the political savvy that you have, so please just be patient with me, OK?
For the last two days something keeps coming to my mind even when I'm busy with something else. The thought 'the numbers aren't right' keep playing like broken record. So this evening I re-read the entire thread trying to find what is wrong with this war (other than the beating that the Palestinians are getting). Now this is where I have a problem.
Hamas keeps firing rockets. Now as far as I know a rocket is a projectile that carries directionally like a catapult very unlike a bomb dropped from the air. The trajectory of the rocket is at a curve, rising high then slanting downward, especially at a distance. Now there are Israeli cities within reach of these rockets, yet the Israeli death and injury count is so low as to be negligible compared to the Palestinian. Why? At the slant/curve and speed that the rocket is traveling at it would shatter a building and any occupants in that building would either die or be injured. It makes no difference really if the bomb drops from above onto the building or if it smashes into the side of the building, there would still be casualties.
Now I can only come up with two reasons why the devastation to Israeli cities is so low.
1. Hamas isn't really aiming to cause devastation, but more of a harassment, not harm. If this is the reason then they would be aiming their rockets into areas of the city that is not populated (warehouses etc). Or aiming their rockets to land outside of the cities. Now, in a real war this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Hamas is Sunni and getting their artillery from Iran, predominantly Shea. Both Sunni and Shea don't care what happens to the Palestinians. Sunnie and Shea don't like Israel.
Now, is it possible, (seeing as the rockets are causing so little damage that only a very few Israelis are actually hurt), that there could be something wrong with the rockets? Hamas is not so stupid that they can't calibrate distance, speed and target. I readily admit to not knowing if rockets are supposed to explode on contact or not, but either way the Israelis should have far more injured and dead than they have. Taking this closer to home if 3 rockets were to be fired and landed smack in the middle of England or whatever city you reside in, how many dead and injured would you estimate? What would you estimate if only 3 rockets were to be aimed and landed right smack in the middle of New York City in the US or London England? I know that if even one landed in the middle of Winnipeg that the death and injury toll would be great just considering all the drivers of vehicles.
So what am I missing here? Is there something wrong with the rockets or is Hamas (Sunni) and Iran (Shea) using Palestine for some personal agenda? I know you are probably all laughing at me as you read this but honestly I really want to know so could someone please share their thoughts?
First, Hamas does this to incite the Jews and get them to attack. Second, Hamas hide there operations in civilian populations so that no matter where the Jews fire they kill civilians. The Palistinians are packed into the Gaza strip like sardiens in a can. This way the Jews LOOK bad to the rest of the world. See. Its a game. Look how bad these Israelis are. They don't care who they kills, such heartless monsters the are. Third, the Jews moved most of there population out of the range of Hamas rockets and kept military installed within the zone.Some civilians were within site of the rocket attacks though.
Fourth, the artillery Hamas has is inferior to what the Israelis have because yes the Sunni and Shea don't care about Hamas but hate the Jews. Fifth, yes Hamas aren't as skilled at aiming rockets as Isreal.
For the last two days something keeps coming to my mind even when I'm busy with something else. The thought 'the numbers aren't right' keep playing like broken record. So this evening I re-read the entire thread trying to find what is wrong with this war (other than the beating that the Palestinians are getting). Now this is where I have a problem.
Hamas keeps firing rockets. Now as far as I know a rocket is a projectile that carries directionally like a catapult very unlike a bomb dropped from the air. The trajectory of the rocket is at a curve, rising high then slanting downward, especially at a distance. Now there are Israeli cities within reach of these rockets, yet the Israeli death and injury count is so low as to be negligible compared to the Palestinian. Why? At the slant/curve and speed that the rocket is traveling at it would shatter a building and any occupants in that building would either die or be injured. It makes no difference really if the bomb drops from above onto the building or if it smashes into the side of the building, there would still be casualties.
Now I can only come up with two reasons why the devastation to Israeli cities is so low.
1. Hamas isn't really aiming to cause devastation, but more of a harassment, not harm. If this is the reason then they would be aiming their rockets into areas of the city that is not populated (warehouses etc). Or aiming their rockets to land outside of the cities. Now, in a real war this wouldn't make any sense.
2. Hamas is Sunni and getting their artillery from Iran, predominantly Shea. Both Sunni and Shea don't care what happens to the Palestinians. Sunnie and Shea don't like Israel.
Now, is it possible, (seeing as the rockets are causing so little damage that only a very few Israelis are actually hurt), that there could be something wrong with the rockets? Hamas is not so stupid that they can't calibrate distance, speed and target. I readily admit to not knowing if rockets are supposed to explode on contact or not, but either way the Israelis should have far more injured and dead than they have. Taking this closer to home if 3 rockets were to be fired and landed smack in the middle of England or whatever city you reside in, how many dead and injured would you estimate? What would you estimate if only 3 rockets were to be aimed and landed right smack in the middle of New York City in the US or London England? I know that if even one landed in the middle of Winnipeg that the death and injury toll would be great just considering all the drivers of vehicles.
So what am I missing here? Is there something wrong with the rockets or is Hamas (Sunni) and Iran (Shea) using Palestine for some personal agenda? I know you are probably all laughing at me as you read this but honestly I really want to know so could someone please share their thoughts?
First, Hamas does this to incite the Jews and get them to attack. Second, Hamas hide there operations in civilian populations so that no matter where the Jews fire they kill civilians. The Palistinians are packed into the Gaza strip like sardiens in a can. This way the Jews LOOK bad to the rest of the world. See. Its a game. Look how bad these Israelis are. They don't care who they kills, such heartless monsters the are. Third, the Jews moved most of there population out of the range of Hamas rockets and kept military installed within the zone.Some civilians were within site of the rocket attacks though.
Fourth, the artillery Hamas has is inferior to what the Israelis have because yes the Sunni and Shea don't care about Hamas but hate the Jews. Fifth, yes Hamas aren't as skilled at aiming rockets as Isreal.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
double helix;1113871 wrote: First, Hamas does this to incite the Jews and get them to attack. Second, Hamas hide there operations in civilian populations so that no matter where the Jews fire they kill civilians. The Palistinians are packed into the Gaza strip like sardiens in a can. This way the Jews LOOK bad to the rest of the world. See. Its a game. Look how bad these Israelis are. They don't care who they kills, such heartless monsters the are. Third, the Jews moved most of there population out of the range of Hamas rockets and kept military installed within the zone.Some civilians were within site of the rocket attacks though.
Fourth, the artillery Hamas has is inferior to what the Israelis have because yes the Sunni and Shea don't care about Hamas but hate the Jews. Fifth, yes Hamas aren't as skilled at aiming rockets as Isreal.
So how do you justify Israel using banned illegal white phospherous (Under the Genever Convention) to maim and kill innocent Palistinians?
How do you Justify Israel continually blocking basic aid, food water, fuel and medical supplies getting into Gaza for the innocent Palistinians?
How do you justify Israel ramming a boat full of aid with American citizens on board?
How do you justify Israel bombing the UN compound in Gaza with American voluntary workers inside and a UN school when your very own 'Condoleeza Rice' ordered them not toi target UN buildings?
Fourth, the artillery Hamas has is inferior to what the Israelis have because yes the Sunni and Shea don't care about Hamas but hate the Jews. Fifth, yes Hamas aren't as skilled at aiming rockets as Isreal.
So how do you justify Israel using banned illegal white phospherous (Under the Genever Convention) to maim and kill innocent Palistinians?
How do you Justify Israel continually blocking basic aid, food water, fuel and medical supplies getting into Gaza for the innocent Palistinians?
How do you justify Israel ramming a boat full of aid with American citizens on board?
How do you justify Israel bombing the UN compound in Gaza with American voluntary workers inside and a UN school when your very own 'Condoleeza Rice' ordered them not toi target UN buildings?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Scrat;1113922 wrote: And yes we do send Israel welfare. We were going to send them a shipload of ammunition from a Greek port but the Greeks said no and we said we;d go somewhere else to get it.
Ammunition costs money. We Americans are paying for it.
Real helpfull imfo on the rockets that i didn't know. Thanks for that.
I have to retire here in Blighty so i shall say goodnight and catch you tomorrow. :-6
Ammunition costs money. We Americans are paying for it.
Real helpfull imfo on the rockets that i didn't know. Thanks for that.
I have to retire here in Blighty so i shall say goodnight and catch you tomorrow. :-6
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Whatever the political rights and wrongs are....innocent people are being killed....specially children. This situation is breeding even more extremists...it's heartbreaking.
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
jimbo;1113978 wrote: i know very little on the subject 
i used to think israel had a right to defend itself but after reading this i feel quite sick
Johann Hari: The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling
The world isn't just watching the Israeli government commit a crime in Gaza; we are watching it self-harm. This morning, and tomorrow morning, and every morning until this punishment beating ends, the young people of the Gaza Strip are going to be more filled with hate, and more determined to fight back, with stones or suicide vests or rockets. Israeli leaders have convinced themselves that the harder you beat the Palestinians, the softer they will become. But when this is over, the rage against Israelis will have hardened, and the same old compromises will still be waiting by the roadside of history, untended and unmade.
To understand how frightening it is to be a Gazan this morning, you need to have stood in that small slab of concrete by the Mediterranean and smelled the claustrophobia. The Gaza Strip is smaller than the Isle of Wight but it is crammed with 1.5 million people who can never leave. They live out their lives on top of each other, jobless and hungry, in vast, sagging tower blocks. From the top floor, you can often see the borders of their world: the Mediterranean, and Israeli barbed wire. When bombs begin to fall – as they are doing now with more deadly force than at any time since 1967 – there is nowhere to hide.
There will now be a war over the story of this war. The Israeli government says, "We withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in return we got Hamas and Qassam rockets being rained on our cities. Sixteen civilians have been murdered. How many more are we supposed to sacrifice?" It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. If we want to understand the reality and really stop the rockets, we need to rewind a few years and view the run-up to this war dispassionately.
The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."
Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.
Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food.
It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.
The American and European governments are responding with a lop-sidedness that ignores these realities. They say that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate while under rocket fire, but they demand that the Palestinians do so under siege in Gaza and violent military occupation in the West Bank.
Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.
The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas militants – like much of the Israeli right-wing – dream of driving their opponents away, "they have recognised this ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware that this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" – and towards a long-term peace based on compromise.
The rejectionists on both sides – from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran to Bibi Netanyahu of Israel – would then be marginalised. It is the only path that could yet end in peace but it is the Israeli government that refuses to choose it. Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas."
Why would Israel act this way? The Israeli government wants peace, but only one imposed on its own terms, based on the acceptance of defeat by the Palestinians. It means the Israelis can keep the slabs of the West Bank on "their" side of the wall. It means they keep the largest settlements and control the water supply. And it means a divided Palestine, with responsibility for Gaza hived off to Egypt, and the broken-up West Bank standing alone. Negotiations threaten this vision: they would require Israel to give up more than it wants to. But an imposed peace will be no peace at all: it will not stop the rockets or the rage. For real safety, Israel will have to talk to the people it is blockading and bombing today, and compromise with them.
The sound of Gaza burning should be drowned out by the words of the Israeli writer Larry Derfner. He says: "Israel's war with Gaza has to be the most one-sided on earth... If the point is to end it, or at least begin to end it, the ball is not in Hamas's court – it is in ours."
Interesting? Click here to explore further
Now you know Jimbo.
i used to think israel had a right to defend itself but after reading this i feel quite sick
Johann Hari: The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling
The world isn't just watching the Israeli government commit a crime in Gaza; we are watching it self-harm. This morning, and tomorrow morning, and every morning until this punishment beating ends, the young people of the Gaza Strip are going to be more filled with hate, and more determined to fight back, with stones or suicide vests or rockets. Israeli leaders have convinced themselves that the harder you beat the Palestinians, the softer they will become. But when this is over, the rage against Israelis will have hardened, and the same old compromises will still be waiting by the roadside of history, untended and unmade.
To understand how frightening it is to be a Gazan this morning, you need to have stood in that small slab of concrete by the Mediterranean and smelled the claustrophobia. The Gaza Strip is smaller than the Isle of Wight but it is crammed with 1.5 million people who can never leave. They live out their lives on top of each other, jobless and hungry, in vast, sagging tower blocks. From the top floor, you can often see the borders of their world: the Mediterranean, and Israeli barbed wire. When bombs begin to fall – as they are doing now with more deadly force than at any time since 1967 – there is nowhere to hide.
There will now be a war over the story of this war. The Israeli government says, "We withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in return we got Hamas and Qassam rockets being rained on our cities. Sixteen civilians have been murdered. How many more are we supposed to sacrifice?" It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. If we want to understand the reality and really stop the rockets, we need to rewind a few years and view the run-up to this war dispassionately.
The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."
Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.
Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food.
It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.
The American and European governments are responding with a lop-sidedness that ignores these realities. They say that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate while under rocket fire, but they demand that the Palestinians do so under siege in Gaza and violent military occupation in the West Bank.
Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.
The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas militants – like much of the Israeli right-wing – dream of driving their opponents away, "they have recognised this ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware that this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" – and towards a long-term peace based on compromise.
The rejectionists on both sides – from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran to Bibi Netanyahu of Israel – would then be marginalised. It is the only path that could yet end in peace but it is the Israeli government that refuses to choose it. Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas."
Why would Israel act this way? The Israeli government wants peace, but only one imposed on its own terms, based on the acceptance of defeat by the Palestinians. It means the Israelis can keep the slabs of the West Bank on "their" side of the wall. It means they keep the largest settlements and control the water supply. And it means a divided Palestine, with responsibility for Gaza hived off to Egypt, and the broken-up West Bank standing alone. Negotiations threaten this vision: they would require Israel to give up more than it wants to. But an imposed peace will be no peace at all: it will not stop the rockets or the rage. For real safety, Israel will have to talk to the people it is blockading and bombing today, and compromise with them.
The sound of Gaza burning should be drowned out by the words of the Israeli writer Larry Derfner. He says: "Israel's war with Gaza has to be the most one-sided on earth... If the point is to end it, or at least begin to end it, the ball is not in Hamas's court – it is in ours."
Interesting? Click here to explore further
Now you know Jimbo.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
I want to thank you all for answering my questions about the rockets and why the difference in death toll. But I wanted to find out more about this whole war so set out on a search. What I found is that Israel is so very, very wrong about the whole thing. I found a link that doesn't 'take sides' but sees it as it is including maps. Israel is occupying territory in Palestine that it has no right to be in according to the UN. Israel is murdering people and is showing it's defiance to the entire world by breaking laws set up by the UN. Literally telling everyone to go to hell because they will do whatever they want to do. How very,very sickening. There will be no peace there and Israel won't stop no matter how many peace talks are set up. They have already proven this. I don't like violence but since Israel won't back off and stop then perhaps the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out.
Land and Settlement Issues- Israel and Palestine - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
Land and Settlement Issues- Israel and Palestine - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1114658 wrote: I want to thank you all for answering my questions about the rockets and why the difference in death toll. But I wanted to find out more about this whole war so set out on a search. What I found is that Israel is so very, very wrong about the whole thing. I found a link that doesn't 'take sides' but sees it as it is including maps. Israel is occupying territory in Palestine that it has no right to be in according to the UN. Israel is murdering people and is showing it's defiance to the entire world by breaking laws set up by the UN. Literally telling everyone to go to hell because they will do whatever they want to do. How very,very sickening. There will be no peace there and Israel won't stop no matter how many peace talks are set up. They have already proven this. I don't like violence but since Israel won't back off and stop then perhaps the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out.
Land and Settlement Issues- Israel and Palestine - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
You have summed it up Amber because unlike some bigoted views, you have bothered to do your research. Sadly, the world is full of bigots who refuse to look further into fact rather than their own skewered vision. All the time we have bigots in this world, nothing will change. You are correct... Either arm the Palistinians or give them their own state and government.
Land and Settlement Issues- Israel and Palestine - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
You have summed it up Amber because unlike some bigoted views, you have bothered to do your research. Sadly, the world is full of bigots who refuse to look further into fact rather than their own skewered vision. All the time we have bigots in this world, nothing will change. You are correct... Either arm the Palistinians or give them their own state and government.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Amber Sun;1114658 wrote: I want to thank you all for answering my questions about the rockets and why the difference in death toll. But I wanted to find out more about this whole war so set out on a search. What I found is that Israel is so very, very wrong about the whole thing. I found a link that doesn't 'take sides' but sees it as it is including maps. Israel is occupying territory in Palestine that it has no right to be in according to the UN. Israel is murdering people and is showing it's defiance to the entire world by breaking laws set up by the UN. Literally telling everyone to go to hell because they will do whatever they want to do. How very,very sickening. There will be no peace there and Israel won't stop no matter how many peace talks are set up. They have already proven this. I don't like violence but since Israel won't back off and stop then perhaps the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out.
Land and Settlement Issues- Israel and Palestine - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
There is fault on both side but you are right, until someone reigns in Israel's ambition there will be no peace.
Where I disagree with you is " the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out. " - adding fuel to the fire will only make the situation worse, we need to reduce Israel's firepower rather than increase that of the Palestinians.
Land and Settlement Issues- Israel and Palestine - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
There is fault on both side but you are right, until someone reigns in Israel's ambition there will be no peace.
Where I disagree with you is " the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out. " - adding fuel to the fire will only make the situation worse, we need to reduce Israel's firepower rather than increase that of the Palestinians.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Red Cross describe Gaza as 'Shocking' after more women and children are killed.
Bryn Mawr;1114680 wrote: There is fault on both side but you are right, until someone reigns in Israel's ambition there will be no peace.
Where I disagree with you is " the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out. " - adding fuel to the fire will only make the situation worse, we need to reduce Israel's firepower rather than increase that of the Palestinians.
I'm dreading to think what they are going to find once the Red Cross and UN get right inside Gaza.
Did you see the link i added some posts back of the boy burnt from Phospherous Bryn?
Where I disagree with you is " the only solution is to arm the Palestinians and let Israel get back some of what they have put out. " - adding fuel to the fire will only make the situation worse, we need to reduce Israel's firepower rather than increase that of the Palestinians.
I'm dreading to think what they are going to find once the Red Cross and UN get right inside Gaza.
Did you see the link i added some posts back of the boy burnt from Phospherous Bryn?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon