Social services say 'sorry' for baby p

[Oscar Namechange]

Social Services have to again apologise for 'neglect'.

When are these people going to be brought before the courts as well as the parents who inflict injury on their children?

We recently had another thread where Social Services badly let down the baby who was killed by her father snapping her spine.

I for one, am sick of hearing the excuses.

Haringey 'sorry' for Baby P death | The Sun |News

[Carolly]

oscar;1057016 wrote: Social Services have to again apologise for 'neglect'.

When are these people going to be brought before the courts as well as the parents who inflict injury on their children?

We recently had another thread where Social Services badly let down the baby who was killed by her father snapping her spine.

I for one, am sick of hearing the excuses.

Haringey 'sorry' for Baby P death | The Sun |NewsAbit bleedin late now aint it.

[Odie]

oscar;1057016 wrote: Social Services have to again apologise for 'neglect'.

When are these people going to be brought before the courts as well as the parents who inflict injury on their children?

We recently had another thread where Social Services badly let down the baby who was killed by her father snapping her spine.

I for one, am sick of hearing the excuses.

Haringey 'sorry' for Baby P death | The Sun |News


saying sorry doesn't always make things better.

and saying sorry doesn't always mean your forgiven.

and then there are times when its just to damn late.

[Oscar Namechange]

Carolly;1057019 wrote: Abit bleedin late now aint it.


Absolutely. At least Gordon Brown has ordered a second enquirey. They should go to prison, sorry. :-5

[Mia]

Because they are under funded and under staffed. Today i hear another two children were killed by their mother who was mentally unstable. Social services and NHS are failing us badly, the reason being there is no money in the pot anymore and we all Know why.

[Oscar Namechange]

Mia;1057084 wrote: Because they are under funded and under staffed. Today i hear another two children were killed by their mother who was mentally unstable. Social services and NHS are failing us badly, the reason being there is no money in the pot anymore and we all Know why.


Oh yeah..I remember now.. It's all that nasty Gordon Brown's fault isn't it??

Change the record and take a look closer to home. When there is absolutely no excuse for shoddy mis-handling of a case.. let's blame the governemnt. Get real will you? Social Services made enough visits to know there was some-thing seriously wrong. It does not come down to government funding, it comes down to people simply not doing the job they were paid to. Social workers failed this child, not the government or Gordon Brown.

The only reason you write that, is because you have no other excuse for their ineptness.

[Oscar Namechange]

Mia;1057084 wrote: Because they are under funded and under staffed. Today i hear another two children were killed by their mother who was mentally unstable. Social services and NHS are failing us badly, the reason being there is no money in the pot anymore and we all Know why.


You should be down right grateful for the NHS system that we have or have you forgotton that it's FREE. If you want to complain about our NHS.. Go to Ireland, that'll open your eyes up. When you've finished ther.. go to El Salvador or Rowanda or the Congo...Need any more?????

[Carolly]

oscar;1057097 wrote: You should be down right grateful for the NHS system that we have or have you forgotton that it's FREE. If you want to complain about our NHS.. Go to Ireland, that'll open your eyes up. When you've finished ther.. go to El Salvador or Rowanda or the Congo...Need any more?????I hear what your saying Oscar loud and clear .....but nothing in this life is free and one way or the other we always end up paying just as we indeed do for our whole Welfare System.

[Oscar Namechange]

Carolly;1057101 wrote: I hear what your saying Oscar loud and clear .....but nothing in this life is free and one way or the other we always end up paying just as we indeed do for our whole Welfare System.
I agree Carolly and we all know that the NHS is not perfect by far but compared to even America, we are very lucky.

I also find it a tired old song when some-one can not excuse something or some-one other than to blame the Government.

These social workers knew something was seriously wrong. No amount of extra funding would have excused their failures to this child.

[Carolly]

oscar;1057107 wrote: I agree Carolly and we all know that the NHS is not perfect by far but compared to even America, we are very lucky.I also find it a tired old song when some-one can not excuse something or some-one other than to blame the Government.

These social workers knew something was seriously wrong. No amount of extra funding would have excused their failures to this child.
Fair comment but do they pay the taxes we do for a start and do they pay NI contributions?All I am saying is yes we do have an NHS thank God but its not free is it.....but saying that I wouldn hate to live in a country with no NHS.

[Oscar Namechange]

Carolly;1057109 wrote: Fair comment but do they pay the taxes we do for a start and do they pay NI contributions?All I am saying is yes we do have an NHS thank God but its not free is it.....but saying that I wouldn hate to live in a country with no NHS.


Again i agree with you Carolly. We do pay in our National Ins stamps but after Mr O's cancer, i know that what is on offer in our NHS far out weighs what we pay. I know operations have been cancelled in the past, but people forget that over the past few years, we have seen investment from the government into the NHS not cutbacks which is what we will get if the Tory's :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl happen to win an election.

When you compare our National Insurence contributions, they are a pittance for what we get compared to even civilised countrie's like America and Ireland.

There is of course the fact that we should be proud to say that weather you are working, poor, un-employed, beggar or thief, you will be treated and treated no differently to any one- else.

When you look at the statistics, it is scandalous, the money that is wasted by non emergency idiots using our Ambulance system just as one example. People in this country call an ambulance for monthly pains!! They should be fined on the spot. that alone would re-direct vital money back into the operating theatres. It is the selfish nation who is to blame.. not the one's who really need it.



Any-one who keeps bad mouthing the Great Gordon Brown will risk having Oscar post more pictures of him onto the forum................... I will!!! :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

[Carolly]

oscar;1057119 wrote: Again i agree with you Carolly. We do pay in our National Ins stamps but after Mr O's cancer, i know that what is on offer in our NHS far out weighs what we pay. I know operations have been cancelled in the past, but people forget that over the past few years, we have seen investment from the government into the NHS not cutbacks which is what we will get if the Tory's :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl happen to win an election.

When you compare our National Insurence contributions, they are a pittance for what we get compared to even civilised countrie's like America and Ireland.

There is of course the fact that we should be proud to say that weather you are working, poor, un-employed, beggar or thief, you will be treated and treated no differently to any one- else.

When you look at the statistics, it is scandalous, the money that is wasted by non emergency idiots using our Ambulance system just as one example. People in this country call an ambulance for monthly pains!! They should be fined on the spot. that alone would re-direct vital money back into the operating theatres. It is the selfish nation who is to blame.. not the one's who really need it.



Any-one who keeps bad mouthing the Great Gordon Brown will risk having Oscar post more pictures of him onto the forum................... I will!!! :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
I like you woman and you do a good debate and also I love your humour BUT I have mentioned this before but reading the part of your post I have hilighted I have got to say it again but in more detail.

My mother in law worked until she was 60.She had worked all her life except when she had her one child.She paid her dues into the "bank" and when she came to "withdraw" some of that money she was pushed back....3 times in all.Bowel Cancer was the problem........ and her only crime IMO for being "knocked back" was being elderly.Yet another appointment was made.....but to late....we found her dead in her flat and guess what we also found....yet ANOTHER letter cancelling yet ANOTHER operation....thank God she had never seen it.......a life was taken from somebody......that somebody had paid for a time she may need help with her health.....she was let down and it cost her her life and yes I know that for every bad story you can show me ex amount of good ones but the fact remains I lost somebody I loved that was let down by the system she had believed in most of her life.

[Oscar Namechange]

Carolly;1057204 wrote: I like you woman and you do a good debate and also I love your humour BUT I have mentioned this before but reading the part of your post I have hilighted I have got to say it again but in more detail.

My mother in law worked until she was 60.She had worked all her life except when she had her one child.She paid her dues into the "bank" and when she came to "withdraw" some of that money she was pushed back....3 times in all.Bowel Cancer was the problem........ and her only crime IMO for being "knocked back" was being elderly.Yet another appointment was made.....but to late....we found her dead in her flat and guess what we also found....yet ANOTHER letter cancelling yet ANOTHER operation....thank God she had never seen it.......a life was taken from somebody......that somebody had paid for a time she may need help with her health.....she was let down and it cost her her life and yes I know that for every bad story you can show me ex amount of good ones but the fact remains I lost somebody I loved that was let down by the system she had believed in most of her life.


I'm sorry to hear of your mum Carolly. As with any system be it NHS, Police etc, some-one suffers. I have my won gripe with my mum's GP before she died and her social worker. The system can seem very unfair at times, when folks who have paid in all of their live's get let down. I do believe change is on the way and i do believe that we have a lot to be grateful for but that doesn't help any-one in your position.

[Victoria]

Every system regardless of how well funded it is will have faults.

The terrible thing is that yet again the social workers on the ground will be the ones to take the full blame for this unmitgated disaster.

Not that i'm saying they shouldn't take a lot of the blame but they each (and there was more than one) went in saw things and made a report, that report is then passed on and on until it might reach someone within the department who has the power to remove the child. Obviously the social workers in this case totally failed to see what was really going on or failed to present their case strongly enough to their superior.

Some of these case workers have 20 or 30 'at risk' children to see, they pass on their report in the belief that the right action will be taken.

I would say that another problem is in the recruiting of social workers. I know two people who are now working in the system.

Andrew comes from a working class background his mother died when he was 6 and he was raised by his dad and his much older sister. He lived on a council estate and went to a normal state school.

He became a social worker because hes a big kid and loves working with kids.

Gina is a bit older she didn't become a social worker until much later in life and did so as a result of the shoddy treatment she received at the hands of social workers during and after the breakdown of her marriage.

She was in an abusive relationship, no-one outside knew everyone thought her husband was a lovely easy going chap but he beat her and threatened to do terrible things to the kids is she disobeyed him or if she tried to run away.

When she finally got the courage to get rid of him he broke into her flat while she was out and emptied it even taking the kids clothes. His new neighbours told police he had had a huge bonfire.

When she approached the social worker instead of help she was told she had to provide adequate living for her children or they would be placed in care!

Both of these people said when they went into training as social workers they were amazed at the ignorance of the trainers and the trainees people turning up in flash cars with posh voices saying they had empathy with their cases, but most of them not having the first clue of how these people live.

Both Andy and Gina said most were easily lied to and intimidated their sheltered backgrounds making them unprepared for the kind of conditions people would be in. If the solution couldn't be found in a book then they had no practical idea to offer.

Maybe better training with a few months practical experience would help?

[spot]

oscar;1057016 wrote: Social Services have to again apologise for 'neglect'.

When are these people going to be brought before the courts as well as the parents who inflict injury on their children?Let's turn the question on its head, shall we? Who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?

[YZGI]

spot;1057356 wrote: Let's turn the question on its head, shall we? Who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?
Good point Spot.



You can't regulate insanity, no matter how many laws you make mistakes will happen. Anyone who hasn't made a mistake hasn't done much.

[scholle-kid]

I am only guessing here ,but, I would be willing to bet it's less about 'funding or knowing' about the danger to a child and more a total lack of 'faceing the paper work' involved in doing their jobs right. The percentage of cases that just go on year after year until the child/children grow up is probally very high compared to the cases that end in perment injury or death of the child, so the caseworkers are milking the clock and wearing blinders in hopes of 'if or 'when something truely bad enough happens to make the front page news ,it happens in some other district or town and all the while these poor children just grow up with minum paperwork and energy on the case workers time.

[Peter Lake]

spot;1057356 wrote: Let's turn the question on its head, shall we? Who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?


In any responsible job, there should carry a responsibility of 'neglect'.

It's not as though we are discussing a binman who has failed to empty your bin on time.

When the health, safety and lives of children are at stake, those within a job with that responsibility should be held accountable.

If they are not, then nothing changes.

Police Officers constantly face the risk of civil action should they fail the public in the line of duty. These social workers should also be held to account.

I read the press report with interest and the quote "The council moved swiftly after the death of baby P". If they can move that swiftly, after the death of a child, there is no excuse for not moving faster before-hand.

It is nothing short of criminal that these social workers visited baby P an astonishing 60 times. How many clue's did they need before they became suspicious?

Too many social workers come straight from university without any 'real life' skills.

If the job held them accountable to police and the courts, more care would be taken in ensuring they did their job properly. It is because they are never held accountable for neglect that we hear these storie's over and over again.

Children need protection from idiots like this as well as unstable parents.

[Peter Lake]

scholle-kid;1057799 wrote: I am only guessing here ,but, I would be willing to bet it's less about 'funding or knowing' about the danger to a child and more a total lack of 'faceing the paper work' involved in doing their jobs right. The percentage of cases that just go on year after year until the child/children grow up is probally very high compared to the cases that end in perment injury or death of the child, so the caseworkers are milking the clock and wearing blinders in hopes of 'if or 'when something truely bad enough happens to make the front page news ,it happens in some other district or town and all the while these poor children just grow up with minum paperwork and energy on the case workers time.


You are very right there.

[spot]

Peter Lake;1057809 wrote: In any responsible job, there should carry a responsibility of 'neglect'.

It's not as though we are discussing a binman who has failed to empty your bin on time.I'll ask it a second time then - who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?

[Imladris]

spot;1057843 wrote: I'll ask it a second time then - who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?




Not me.





Oh, and can I say without getting into a huge slanging match please, Oscar your deifying Gordon Brown is starting to wear thin now for me at least, there are politics areas of this forum so do we have to have it in every post?

[scholle-kid]

spot;1057843 wrote: I'll ask it a second time then - who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?




Is this one of those trick questions ?

I thought this thread was about the people that has done exactly what your asking about.

:yh_eyebro'apply for a job with a Social Services department '

[Peter Lake]

spot;1057356 wrote: Let's turn the question on its head, shall we? Who would ever apply for a job with a Social Services department if it exposed them to the possibility of prosecution?
Having read more detail of this case, i read yesterday that junior case workers had refered baby P's case time and time again to their superior's. One of these senior social workers was involved in the case where a little girl was tortured and killed by her mother only a short time ago. That social worker has allegedly lied throughout that childs enquirey and now refuses to resign after being directly involved in baby P's case.

I see your point, who indeed would apply or train in a job where they faced prosecution. However, is the risk of prosecution something that any worker in any job faces, should they be found guilty of causing harm to another?

A lorry driver for example is open to prosecution if he breaks the law on a motorway.

It is the fact that there are no laws to govern these social worker chiefs, that they can continue to work in their chosen profession.

There would have to be a regulated system of gross neglect as in the case of baby P. To visit a child 60 times is just unacceptable and grossly negligent.

If the case workers refered baby P time after time and the regime of Haringay social services chose not to act on it, then they should be accountable in that baby's death. The junior case workers who did their best in trying to get the attention of senior social workers should not be open to prosecution. It is the people above them who believed they knew better than to listen to the crie's and alarm of the juniors.

There would need to be a structure in place where as with any job, an investigation took place. If it was found by an independent enquirey that a senior member of staff had ignored a case, another enquirey into that senior member should be carried out. If it was proven that through neglect of duty, the senior staff had contributed to the death of a child, they should then answer to the courts and let a jury hear the full details and decide.

If any one does the job in which they are trained to the best of their ability, they would have nothing to fear.

[Peter Lake]

Imladris;1057868 wrote: Not me.





Oh, and can I say without getting into a huge slanging match please, Oscar your deifying Gordon Brown is starting to wear thin now for me at least, there are politics areas of this forum so do we have to have it in every post?


Don't worry, I'll have words with the wife. If you think it's bad on here, you should pity me. I have to live with the Gordon Brown fan.

[wildhorses]

We are sorry? OMG....that is so pathetic. They knew this child was in trouble and they did not rescue him. Even if you take into account a shortage of funds.....this case is so extreme that at least they could have put the child with a couple who cant have kids and wants a baby. I am sure in Britain, as in USA, there are plenty. They should go to prison for a very long time.

[Oscar Namechange]

wildhorses;1058333 wrote: We are sorry? OMG....that is so pathetic. They knew this child was in trouble and they did not rescue him. Even if you take into account a shortage of funds.....this case is so extreme that at least they could have put the child with a couple who cant have kids and wants a baby. I am sure in Britain, as in USA, there are plenty. They should go to prison for a very long time.


Although it was a long time ago, Mr Oscar's son from his first marraige died at the age of 4 from cancer. The same cancer Mr Oscar was diagnosed with recently. No man or woman should have to bury their child and when they have, reading something like this case is so much more heartbreaking because you know that you would have taken baby P in the blink of an eye.

To 'apologise' is pathetic especially when i don't actually believe that they are truely sorry. It is taking a national campaign by a newspaper to get these people sacked because they refuse to resign. If they held any genuine remorse, they would do the right thing and resign immediately. The fact that they won't shows the true arrogange of them. Disgusting specimens of people. :-5

[Imladris]

Peter Lake;1058327 wrote: Don't worry, I'll have words with the wife. If you think it's bad on here, you should pity me. I have to live with the Gordon Brown fan.


:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl



oscar;1058340 wrote: Although it was a long time ago, Mr Oscar's son from his first marraige died at the age of 4 from cancer. The same cancer Mr Oscar was diagnosed with recently. No man or woman should have to bury their child


absolutely 100% agree with you, to lose a child is just wrong, hugs to Mr Oscar and best wishes for future health. :-4

[Oscar Namechange]

Imladris;1058851 wrote:





absolutely 100% agree with you, to lose a child is just wrong, hugs to Mr Oscar and best wishes for future health. :-4


Thanks for that Immy :-6