Macca

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magentaflame
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Macca

Post by magentaflame »

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/australiaallover/

You can stream it. Everyone I know listens to this show when they can.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_All_Over
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

That's a lot of music in there. I'm not sure Mr McNamara represents Australia as a culturally diverse part of the planet but perhaps I didn't hear enough hours to catch it.

I asked a while back but you missed seeing it - if you've read Bruce Pascoe's Dark Emu, what did you think of it? The detractors, most of whom are white Australians, say he ignores lots of alternative evidence, but I think that's because he's unearthed a whole lot they really don't like to look at, all written by their own British immigrant ancestors. The kindle version is AUS$ 10.88.

Here's a link, so you can see the title - https://www.amazon.com.au/Dark-Emu-Abor ... 947534084/

The book's main thrust is that nearly all immigrant Australians since the mid-nineteenth century have only ever seen Aboriginals as worthless destitute itinerant stone-age leftovers with no land and no agriculture, surviving either hand to mouth or dependantly. Going back to primary source diaries and journals of the first-contact British families he builds up a credible description of pre-contact life as far less ineffectual, which necessarily came to an end when the land was taken over exclusively for, and rapidly wrecked by, European crops, livestock and farming methods. Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
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Re: Macca

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
You missed out culture shock
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:19 am
Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
You missed out culture shock
I thought the ones I listed were entirely capable of imposing destitution and itinerance on their own, without further assistance. I'd offer the repeated persecution of European Jews over the last thousand years as testimony.
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Re: Macca

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:32 am
Bryn Mawr wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:19 am
Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
You missed out culture shock
I thought the ones I listed were entirely capable of imposing destitution and itinerance on their own, without further assistance. I'd offer the repeated persecution of European Jews over the last thousand years as testimony.
Sadly, even without those in your list, a population can go into terminal decline just by meeting another culture.
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:06 am
spot wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:32 am
Bryn Mawr wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:19 am
Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
You missed out culture shock
I thought the ones I listed were entirely capable of imposing destitution and itinerance on their own, without further assistance. I'd offer the repeated persecution of European Jews over the last thousand years as testimony.
Sadly, even without those in your list, a population can go into terminal decline just by meeting another culture.
I've certainly seen it said but I have grave doubts. I think the entire expression has been used as an excuse by colonialists ever since they were criticized, and the words actually imply "primitive undeveloped societies" and Darwinian selection against the inadequate.
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Re: Macca

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:20 am
Bryn Mawr wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:06 am
spot wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:32 am
Bryn Mawr wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:19 am
Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
You missed out culture shock
I thought the ones I listed were entirely capable of imposing destitution and itinerance on their own, without further assistance. I'd offer the repeated persecution of European Jews over the last thousand years as testimony.
Sadly, even without those in your list, a population can go into terminal decline just by meeting another culture.
I've certainly seen it said but I have grave doubts. I think the entire expression has been used as an excuse by colonialists ever since they were criticized, and the words actually imply "primitive undeveloped societies" and Darwinian selection against the inadequate.
If you take the cargo cultures I thought it made a lot of sense - they see what appears to be magic (ask a small box for what you want and lo, a flying monster drops what you ask for) and their magic man tries to do the same and fails tends to be a kick in the teeth.

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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 pm Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.
You're undoubtedly correct, but I can recognize inhumanity when I see it. I think that's the word I need. "Want of human feeling and compassion; brutality, barbarous cruelty". That sort of word. And, in the case of Mr McNamara, total oblivious disregard for the issue at all, which was why I asked.

As for "it doesn't effect you", you're wrong. It was my ancestors who benefited economically from colonial theft, and that benefit continues to support the lifestyle of everyone in Britain.

So have you any opinion about Bruce Pascoe or Dark Emu?
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Re: Macca

Post by LarsMac »

magentaflame wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 pm Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.
Everything that happens to indigenous people all over the world affects all of us.
Just sayin'
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

LarsMac wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:25 am
magentaflame wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 pm Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.
Everything that happens to indigenous people all over the world affects all of us.
Just sayin'
You are undoubtedly correct. I think I was working more toward blame, responsibility, culpability and guilt than being affected.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

I could sit here all day and go on and on about this....but if you want to know about Australia open a book. If you want to get into the politics of the black fella open a book .

One thing though spot . You are the first Brit to be so concerned that you owe myself and my ancestors lost wages. Whites don't like being slaves either. Begin where you sit.
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Re: Macca

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LarsMac wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:25 am
magentaflame wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 pm Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.


Everything that happens to indigenous people all over the world affects all of us.
Just sayin'
I understand that Lars. Believe me I do . But when told not to speak on behalf of the black fella you don't ...you comply with their wishes. And I'm doing that. It's called respect....something lacking amongst the do gooders of the world. We do not share the same history. And it shows when Spot called my ancestors "immigrants" Don't think so . It's called white washing. Interesting term.
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Re: Macca

Post by LarsMac »

magentaflame wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:32 pm
LarsMac wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:25 am
magentaflame wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 pm Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.


Everything that happens to indigenous people all over the world affects all of us.
Just sayin'
I understand that Lars. Believe me I do . But when told not to speak on behalf of the black fella you don't ...you comply with their wishes. And I'm doing that. It's called respect....something lacking amongst the do gooders of the world. We do not share the same history. And it shows when Spot called my ancestors "immigrants" Don't think so . It's called white washing. Interesting term.
Unless your ancestors were already wandering the outback before Captain Cook "Discovered" the place, I reckon that your ancestors were, indeed, immigrants. Just like most of mine, who came from places like Glasgow, Leicester, Dorset, Limerick, and Mainz. Most white folks around the world are immigrants from somewhere.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

LarsMac wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:35 am
magentaflame wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:32 pm
LarsMac wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:25 am
magentaflame wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:26 pm Spot You know not what you speak. To you it's an interesting topic it doesn't effect you. You'd need a lot more understanding than one book.


Everything that happens to indigenous people all over the world affects all of us.
Just sayin'
I understand that Lars. Believe me I do . But when told not to speak on behalf of the black fella you don't ...you comply with their wishes. And I'm doing that. It's called respect....something lacking amongst the do gooders of the world. We do not share the same history. And it shows when Spot called my ancestors "immigrants" Don't think so . It's called white washing. Interesting term.
Unless your ancestors were already wandering the outback before Captain Cook "Discovered" the place, I reckon that your ancestors were, indeed, immigrants. Just like most of mine, who came from places like Glasgow, Leicester, Dorset, Limerick, and Mainz. Most white folks around the world are immigrants from somewhere.
If you are referring to convict ancestry then again our history is vastly different. You don't call slaves immigrants. Your own blacks would have a problem with that. England can't even handle what they did so I'm going to suppose your willy nilly take on Australian history has the same ignorance. I don't blame you for that but to say only white folks are immigrants is a bit weird. Even the aboriginals came from somewhere. (north of Australia/)Asia.
Even indigenous academics say it's no wonder what happened considering what the majority of whites went through. Psychological damage is not a one generational thing.
Proper immigration didn't happen in Australia until around the 1830's and that was very few people who wanted to be here.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

But sitting here listening to Macca right now for the next couple of hours..... it streams over the net if anyone is interested.
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Re: Macca

Post by Bryn Mawr »

LarsMac wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:35 am Most white folks around the world are immigrants from somewhere.
As far as we can tell from my parent’s digging into the family history most of our ancestors walked in over the land bridge.

There was a hint at one point that one of them was Duke of Normandy before he sailed over later but they then found that they’d linked to the wrong Mary Smith and had to lop that branch of the family tree.
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Re: Macca

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magentaflame wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:32 pmwhen told not to speak on behalf of the black fella you don't ...you comply with their wishes.
On a point of information, I wouldn't dream of speaking on behalf of the black fella. As you say, it would be disrespectful. On the other hand I have no objection at all to talking about Australian history, and that history consists primarily about pre-colonial events and what happened as a consequence of the British invasion.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

Okay....how many lands, tribes and tongues of indigenous are there? Lets talk about that.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

I'll help you out...this is just my State.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadubanud

This is the rest of Australia

https://mgnsw.org.au/sector/aboriginal/ ... guage-map/
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

Do any of you know about this? Before I was even born

https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/nitv-news/a ... eedom-ride
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Re: Macca

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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

Bryn Mawr wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:11 pm
LarsMac wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:35 am Most white folks around the world are immigrants from somewhere.
As far as we can tell from my parent’s digging into the family history most of our ancestors walked in over the land bridge.

There was a hint at one point that one of them was Duke of Normandy before he sailed over later but they then found that they’d linked to the wrong Mary Smith and had to lop that branch of the family tree.
That's exactly what the indigenous did. Even today you can get into a dinghi and sail from Australia to New guinea. That's a trade route and immigration route. Has been forever. The old land bridge to Tasmania. Always thought to be the reason the indigenous were in Tassy and isolated...I know someone personally who has gone to Tassy in a Kayak from Gippsland and back again.

Now here's the question....were the indigenous so stupid to not have thought about that before? Or are we the idiots who didn't think they had a brain?
Answer: It's not how or why or when the indigenous came or went. It's about whether they were scientific, scholars, technicians, medical practitioners, explorers, ancestry, had fine arts, and so on that every other tribe (including whites) around the world did.

Answer again is .Yes. And that is what was robbed from them. In all it's forms.

Now this is just my own personal opinion and argument. But I believe I'm a bit of a genius and that's the correct way of looking at it.
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

Do you know, all I asked is what you thought of Bruce Pascoe's Dark Emu and you shy away from the question like it's terrifying.
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Re: Macca

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spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:33 pm Do you know, all I asked is what you thought of Bruce Pascoe's Dark Emu and you shy away from the question like it's terrifying.
Why would I answer ? I have 20 to 25 books in my collection of books on this topic. You're just telling me to read yet another. To be honest with you, I can be assured that he's telling the same story, from what I read on it's review on Wiki. Shy away? Terrifying? gee you over state things sometimes.

If you have a pointed question about what he's written (because I dare say that's your way of questioning)...then just ask it.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

OOh....hang on I think I just answered that in my post before the last. DAH!
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

Bryn Mawr wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:06 am
spot wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:32 am
Bryn Mawr wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:19 am
Destitution and itinerance are natural and inevitable consequences of dispossession, segregation, racial discrimination and outlawry.
You missed out culture shock
I thought the ones I listed were entirely capable of imposing destitution and itinerance on their own, without further assistance. I'd offer the repeated persecution of European Jews over the last thousand years as testimony.
Sadly, even without those in your list, a population can go into terminal decline just by meeting another culture.
just look at the Amazon
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Re: Macca

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magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:44 pmI have 20 to 25 books in my collection of books on this topic. You're just telling me to read yet another.
Ah. No, but that answers the question. I'd assumed you got it when it came out, it didn't cross my mind that you didn't know it. That's why I asked what you'd thought, it was a novel approach to analysing that particular moment in time. Instead of taking any information at all from anyone's oral tradition it took direct quotes from surviving diaries and journals of the first-generation British and provided a commentary. Damned clever, that.
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Re: Macca

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Been done over and over from diaries etc. As I said nothing new. PURLEASE.... most of the history has been destroyed . I'm one of the lucky ones I have no way of knowing what my grandmother looked like but my grandfather. 5'4 hazel eyes, fresh complexion, 17. pretty sure he looked a little different after being on a hulk for 2 years. But he was handpicked for the first fleet. Immigrant you say? Give over!

And as far as that one persons footprint in Australia goes he signed a petition for bushrangers...no killing off of Aboriginals no disposession..nothing. Pretty sure he'd had enough of brutality to then put it onto someone else.

As far as I'm concerned I'm sick of the nit picking publishing of info..............Publish the lot!!! I say. otherwise you are setting the agenda. I don't like that.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

Read 'black land white land'. More diaries.




https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/30134914407 ... gJkgvD_BwE
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Re: Macca

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spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:38 pm
magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:44 pmI have 20 to 25 books in my collection of books on this topic. You're just telling me to read yet another.
Ah. No, but that answers the question. I'd assumed you got it when it came out, it didn't cross my mind that you didn't know it. That's why I asked what you'd thought, it was a novel approach to analysing that particular moment in time. Instead of taking any information at all from anyone's oral tradition it took direct quotes from surviving diaries and journals of the first-generation British and provided a commentary. Damned clever, that.
I might give that a read, but I will say this, I studied Robinson Crusoe and it annoyed me immensly. The assumptions of ownership of the land with his fencing it in and claiming it for his own, his looking down on Friday whilst teaching him English and turning him into a Christian 'civil' slave - grrrrr it made my blood boil !

Is this book going to make my blood boil?
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

Betty Boop wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:10 pm
Is this book going to make my blood boil?
I've no doubt it will, yes.
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:43 pm As far as I'm concerned I'm sick of the nit picking publishing of info..............Publish the lot!!! I say. otherwise you are setting the agenda. I don't like that.
I suspect there's the question of who owns the diaries and journals which are being quoted. British copyright law requires so many years after the death of the author or the date of first publication whichever is more recent, and if most of the diaries or journals are unpublished then copyright resides with the owner. Publishing extracts by permission is legal but I've no idea how you'd get to publish everything.

Even assuming everything ends up published, anyone quoting from what's there is clearly setting the agenda. How else can you say what's there that you're highlighting? You have to stick within a thousand pages or you're not writing a book, you're republishing a library.

What Bruce Pascoe does is he says exactly where he found his source, so anyone responding can verify his material. The reason he's not misleadingly quoting is that he'd be caught if he did, and diminish his work.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:20 pm
magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:43 pm As far as I'm concerned I'm sick of the nit picking publishing of info..............Publish the lot!!! I say. otherwise you are setting the agenda. I don't like that.
I suspect there's the question of who owns the diaries and journals which are being quoted. British copyright law requires so many years after the death of the author or the date of first publication whichever is more recent, and if most of the diaries or journals are unpublished then copyright resides with the owner. Publishing extracts by permission is legal but I've no idea how you'd get to publish everything.

Even assuming everything ends up published, anyone quoting from what's there is clearly setting the agenda. How else can you say what's there that you're highlighting? You have to stick within a thousand pages or you're not writing a book, you're republishing a library.

What Bruce Pascoe does is he says exactly where he found his source, so anyone responding can verify his material. The reason he's not misleadingly quoting is that he'd be caught if he did, and diminish his work.
I don't freaking much care who owns them.....they belong to everyone as far as I'm concerned. But all of it! Republish a library???? What library? it's hidden from us mere mortals and spoon fed to us on an agenda! Stop the agendas and just give it all to us!
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:00 pm Read 'black land white land'. More diaries.
That's this chap? https://www.mup.com.au/authors/michael-cannon

He has an impressive list of books over the last fifty years. Finding that specific volume locally ought to be possible, I'll look.
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:36 pm I don't freaking much care who owns them.....they belong to everyone as far as I'm concerned. But all of it! Republish a library???? What library? it's hidden from us mere mortals and spoon fed to us on an agenda! Stop the agendas and just give it all to us!
I was merely suggesting that Bruce Pascoe has done everything he can to get the material to you. Nobody short of your government is capable of achieving what you're asking for, not even your national library has the raw material to make it public access.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:41 pm
magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:00 pm Read 'black land white land'. More diaries.
That's this chap? https://www.mup.com.au/authors/michael-cannon

He has an impressive list of books over the last fifty years. Finding that specific volume locally ought to be possible, I'll look.
Yep. This book is more local to me so it makes more sense from where I stand.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:43 pm
magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:36 pm I don't freaking much care who owns them.....they belong to everyone as far as I'm concerned. But all of it! Republish a library???? What library? it's hidden from us mere mortals and spoon fed to us on an agenda! Stop the agendas and just give it all to us!
I was merely suggesting that Bruce Pascoe has done everything he can to get the material to you. Nobody short of your government is capable of achieving what you're asking for, not even your national library has the raw material to make it public access.
Yes they do and others. But it's in the back rooms and some of it is politically sensitive so good luck seeing it in my life time. I'm a member of the Australian library and Victorian. Good luck with your searches.

You guys were served up a series and it became banned because you all had hissy fits over women being tied to an A frame and flogged.......please.

But please don't read just one book and think it's the total story. You don't like brutality? Christ you guys invented it!
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

If you were listening to Macca ....not supposing you did...Libby is on now. More city centric. Learnt how to keep and use ginger properly last week.
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/ ... ekendlife/
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:49 pm But please don't read just one book and think it's the total story. You don't like brutality? Christ you guys invented it!
My son picked it out last week for his bedtime storybook, I'd not have seen it otherwise. That's why I was interested in whether you'd seen it.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:19 pm
magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:49 pm But please don't read just one book and think it's the total story. You don't like brutality? Christ you guys invented it!
My son picked it out last week for his bedtime storybook, I'd not have seen it otherwise. That's why I was interested in whether you'd seen it.
question... your son is now around 10 or 11? correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:33 pm
spot wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:19 pm
magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:49 pm But please don't read just one book and think it's the total story. You don't like brutality? Christ you guys invented it!
My son picked it out last week for his bedtime storybook, I'd not have seen it otherwise. That's why I was interested in whether you'd seen it.
question... your son is now around 10 or 11? correct me if I'm wrong.
He's 9. We finished his previous two books, I told him to choose the next. He clicked Australia - we were on the Kindle search page - and then he clicked Pre-history, and then he clicked "Dark Emu", and we're about eighty pages in. If he had a straw he'd be drinking it.

I think he took that path because The Golden Bough, from which I admittedly dropped two sections about puberty taboos, had quite a bit in it about reported ritual beliefs in Australia before its publication date in 1880, and it had kept him thoughtful for the six months it took to read it aloud.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

hhhmmm.......not going to comment. live and let live I say. :?
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Re: Macca

Post by spot »

magentaflame wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:09 pm hhhmmm.......not going to comment. live and let live I say. :?
If the alternative is reading him tosh like Harry Potter then I reckon I've got it about right.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

dunno never liked it. Never read it to them but they read it because of the popular consensus. They were in late primary and high school when it came out.

He's not my kid...all good.
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Re: Macca

Post by magentaflame »

having a think about this. It's hard. Because most, as always, have already made up their minds.

Did any of you know there are Koorie courts? It's on the magistrate scale of things and you are only allowed to front them if you plead guilty... I fucking hate that!!!!!As a citizen of the world I fucking fucking fucking hate that!!! In my life time it means you already know you're wrong...heres a couple of elders to run you down.....I want to scream that to the world.

And then there is my experience of them. It's always gender appropriate. Either side of the magistrate sits two elders. I've seen tough men reduced to tears. Because the elders speak the truth. "get that child out of here it should be in school" I've seen stuff that I was almost in tears and questioning my own dallies of life. I've seen coppers who can't handle it. It's intense and how I believe our own magistrate courts should be run. Bit of truth would go a long way ....but that won't happen because they are building more and more prisons. they don't want a fair system. It doesn't work for them.

How do I know this?... I had the audacity to call an older gentleman Sir. one morning. He was of koorie persuasion and I know he was homeless. (he's also hidden his six pack under a tree around the corner.)..... doesn't matter to me. He comes into the public arena. He has an appointment to be served. He has every right to be there as any soli or mouth piece or beak that comes into that entrance. I needed to screen this man and gave him the respect I would any other (except for those who made a joke .." could you feel that right hip again" ummm no you're good.)
All I said was :could you raise your arms for me sir" "thankyou sir.".. never seen someone stare at me like that. Never seen others look at me like I'd just committed a cardinal sin.... Why was it so out of whack?...to this day I don't understand....but it's come to my attention Idon't understand a lot
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