Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Need help? Ask for it. Serious Discussions Only.
User avatar
MilkMoon
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by MilkMoon »

I am living in place now that I completely hate. There are no good universities nearby, and there is virtually no hope for a future here. Trust me when I tell you that I'm not being biased or negative, that is all just empirical fact. I'm - hopefully - going to study abroad, and work abroad too. My mother and my father are both opposed to this idea. I'm going to give you a brief list of things they've told me/believe, along with my thoughts, and you can tell me what you think based on that.

1. It's not good for young people to leave their families.

A: Young people leave their families all the time, for college, marriage, etc. It's a natural part of life, and unrealistic to think that one can be glued to their family forever. Leaving doesn't necessarily = cut off, they're just learning to stand on their own two feet and fend for themselves. How is that bad?

2. They think I'm religious and want me to conform to that (my father is especially religious).

A: About a year ago, I finally came to the conclusion that I'm atheist. I think they suspect this, but I haven't told them yet. They will not react well, trust me. And I don't want to have to pretend to be something I'm not, and follow rules that no longer apply to me in the least. Staying here means I will have to do those two things.

3. They think my career choice is 'stupid'. They want me to be a doctor instead.

A: I want to be clinical psychologist, how is that stupid? It's like being a doctor, but for mental illnesses instead (in my case, I want to specialize in depression, trauma, or sleeping disorders). And besides, even if I wanted to a musician or dancer, what is the problem here? Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, and not everyone wants that. Shouldn't parents support their children's dreams - as long as they're not too far out - instead of trying to crush them?

4. I "owe" them obedience, and should therefore do what they tell me - aka, stay in the country.

A: They are good parents, I will give them that. In return, I am not rude, whiny, or disrespectful towards them, and they know this. I've told them that me wanting to leave is nothing personal - and that I will visit and call and not forget about them, but that I have to 'chart my own course' so to speak. However, what I really think is that saying that I owe them pisses me off. I didn't ask to be here, they brought me into this world because of their own wants. They wanted me here, and now I have to pay them back for every plate of food they set on my table with a lifetime of servitude? How is that fair?

You might think I'm not old enough to be saying this but I know who I am, and what I want to be. I want to be independent, and I want to be happy. I am depressed here, and I am scared. I feel like my entire future is dangling on a precipice. I really, really don't want to stay. And the thing that bugs me? Neither do my parents. They're here because of THEIR parents, and I'm assuming that they think I should do the same for them. So am I wrong here? Who's being selfish, me or them? And most importantly… who sacrifices what they want for the other person?



P.S: I tend to plan ahead, so there are still a couple more years left for things to change. I understand that me leaving is hard for them to accept, but they won't even talk to me about this! I tried to be as calm and reasonable as possible, and asked them for their opinions and explanations, and they wouldn't even give me a chance to hear them out, and forget about hearing me out. If this doesn't change, I think in the end I'm just going to runaway or something…

Note: I posted this somewhere else, and from the responses I realize that there's something I need to clarify. I'm not in a place where I can up and leave when I turn 18. Where I'm from, no matter my age, I need my father's official signature to leave the country. Without it, I'm screwed.
I do not want people to be agreeable, as it saves me the trouble of liking them - Austen
fuzzywuzzy
Posts: 6596
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

running away doesn't help .

Convince them in the years you have left with them that you are a capable young person .
User avatar
Lon
Posts: 9476
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Lon »

For a teenager you appear to have a fair measure of maturity. Your parents are not really selfish, they are just being parents.

You have a clear vision of what you want to pursue and my question to you is how would this vision be supported financially?

Would parents financially support your studying abroad, if not, could you do it without their financial support? I empathize with your non religious thinking and are probably wise to keep your thinking to your self and not share with your parents.

Could you share where you are living?
User avatar
rajakrsna
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:04 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by rajakrsna »

MilkMoon,

I do not know if there is anyone here who were not like you at your age. When I was 18 my brother Jr introduced me to pot & rock music. I wanted to wear clothes he wore. The trend in those days was sporting long hair. Mine was an afro-look because my hair was curly or wavy. After school, my classmates & I get drunk. Go home late. What did my parents think of me doing that? I know they had a plan for me. To become a doctor. My brother Jr went to a rehab instead of a university while I continued to study ( there was still some sense left in me ) even if infected with the hip virus until I graduated in college with a course in BS Medical Technology. I wanted to take the board exams in Med Tech but my parents wanted me to proceed the course in medicine. So, I took up medicine but it did not stop me from smoking pot and drinking alcohol. There were times I would suddenly laugh aloud in psychiatry class. After class I seldom open my books to study. I continue to hang-out with friends in disco bars, etc. Yet despite of everything, I never skip class even if I was high. I get good scores in tests my classmate envy. Maybe I inherited the brain of my father who was my professor in Pathology & Dermatology. My father`s a genius. He could lecture to us for hours without using notes or slides. My father bred cocks for cockfighting. He played golf, tennis, basketball. He was into fishing about just anything. What I learned from my father was that he was the most tolerant person. He knew I was into drugs & alcohol & yet he never said a word to stop me from what I was doing. This was until my sweetheart got pregnant, we eloped & got married in church during my senior clerkship in medicine. This was the turn around I was able to stop my vices. I took the physicians board exams on December 1986 & got my license to practice medicine in January 1987. Did I leave home? Nope. I`m still residing with my wife in a compound where my parents live. You see, there`s nothing like home sweet home. Where our parents are there we ought to be. To care & assist them when they are old. Are my parents selfish? Nope, I guess not.

Rajakrsna
Om namo bagavate vasudevaya, " God is the Cause of All causes."
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Accountable »

Nobody is being selfish. I agree with Lon.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Clodhopper »

You have time, young Milkmoon. You have the internet, so you are not totally cut off from the rest of the world and you can access an enormous amount of material on Clinical Psychology. Also, most Universities will send you reading lists of recommended texts so you know what's worth the time and what is outdated or crackpot.

So stay with your studies and your dream - and your parents. Who knows what the next few years will bring? And you are far more likely to change their opinion by staying calm and true to your dream like a young adult, and not shouting and screaming and getting upset - because they will associate that with you as a child and disregard it.

It is much easier for me to give this advice than for you to take it, I know. Sorry!
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
MilkMoon
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by MilkMoon »

Lon;1393601 wrote: For a teenager you appear to have a fair measure of maturity. Your parents are not really selfish, they are just being parents.

You have a clear vision of what you want to pursue and my question to you is how would this vision be supported financially?

Would parents financially support your studying abroad, if not, could you do it without their financial support? I empathize with your non religious thinking and are probably wise to keep your thinking to your self and not share with your parents.

Could you share where you are living?


I'm not sure. My mother said, and I quote "If you think we would be willing to pay for your education only to have you leave us, then you'd be stupid".

I'm in Saudi Arabia. Yes, you heard me correctly. Maybe that little tidbit of information can help highlight my situation. I can't tell my parents about my religious position, and though I know they will never hurt me, the country does not take too kindly to atheists. This means that I would have to 'pretend' to pray five times a day, cover my hair, and do other, bigger things that I don't agree with. My parents have both assured me that they will not marry me against my will, but my father has said that marriage is what he expects of me, not a career. I never want to get married, and especially not to any man in this country. I could go on about what women have to go through here as one of the top reasons I want to leave, but that's not quite relevant to your question, and I don't want to rant too much. You are generous enough with your time as it is.



Right now, I'm being home-schooled with some of my cousins, which works very well for me, as I can study subjects that I want to pursue a career in (namely Psychology, and also Sociology and Biology, as they tie in with that) It looks like I'm going to be studying in the Emirates, which is already a big step for me. The university I'm looking at is in Dubai, and it's called Middlesex. It's one of the two only universities in the Emirates that offer Psychology. From what I understand, I can spend my 3rd-4th year studying in the UK, at the original Middlesex university. That's what I'm hoping for, as well as a chance to stay in the UK, or any other decent, safe country - aka, not the Arab world.

If I decide do my 3rd and 4th year abroad, I don't think they will support me, financially or otherwise, especially if push comes to shove and I run away. I'm thinking that if that does happen, to support myself, I can do what most students do - take a loan out from the bank, and work part-time jobs.
I do not want people to be agreeable, as it saves me the trouble of liking them - Austen
User avatar
MilkMoon
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by MilkMoon »

Clodhopper;1393637 wrote: You have time, young Milkmoon. You have the internet, so you are not totally cut off from the rest of the world and you can access an enormous amount of material on Clinical Psychology.


Yes, but that's not my point. My point is being able to live somewhere when I can pursue that career choice, as well as study it somewhere I want to.

And you are far more likely to change their opinion by staying calm and true to your dream like a young adult, and not shouting and screaming and getting upset - because they will associate that with you as a child and disregard it.


*sighs* I know this. I never shout and scream when making a point. My mother will do that sometimes, but I always rein in my emotions. My father is immovable, and won't even discuss things with me, even when I ask. He just says things like "Maybe", and "We'll see", and "You have lots of time".

Yes, I have time. But time runs out, and luck favors the prepared. And besides, would it really be so painful to give me a simple "Yes" or "No"?
I do not want people to be agreeable, as it saves me the trouble of liking them - Austen
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by AnneBoleyn »

A Saudi woman. Maybe we should set up a Sanctuary for you, to enable your freedom. My heart leaps for you.
User avatar
Snooz
Posts: 4799
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:05 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Snooz »

How about psychiatry? You'd be a doctor and you'd still be in the mental health community. Two birds with one stone.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Clodhopper »

I'm sorry again. I had guessed the Islamic connection, but assumed you were a man and I certainly hadn't realised where you lived. I've never had the honour of hearing from someone like you and I hope you are not taking too much of a risk talking to us.

You seem to be a mature and intelligent person. You will know better than I what you can and can't get away with. I can only wish you luck and make sure you know you have my complete support. I'm afraid you may have resort to deceiving your parents to get away. And I wouldn't be altogether surprised if they suspect that.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
Lon
Posts: 9476
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Lon »

MilkMoon;1393661 wrote: I'm not sure. My mother said, and I quote "If you think we would be willing to pay for your education only to have you leave us, then you'd be stupid".

I'm in Saudi Arabia. Yes, you heard me correctly. Maybe that little tidbit of information can help highlight my situation. I can't tell my parents about my religious position, and though I know they will never hurt me, the country does not take too kindly to atheists. This means that I would have to 'pretend' to pray five times a day, cover my hair, and do other, bigger things that I don't agree with. My parents have both assured me that they will not marry me against my will, but my father has said that marriage is what he expects of me, not a career. I never want to get married, and especially not to any man in this country. I could go on about what women have to go through here as one of the top reasons I want to leave, but that's not quite relevant to your question, and I don't want to rant too much. You are generous enough with your time as it is.



Right now, I'm being home-schooled with some of my cousins, which works very well for me, as I can study subjects that I want to pursue a career in (namely Psychology, and also Sociology and Biology, as they tie in with that) It looks like I'm going to be studying in the Emirates, which is already a big step for me. The university I'm looking at is in Dubai, and it's called Middlesex. It's one of the two only universities in the Emirates that offer Psychology. From what I understand, I can spend my 3rd-4th year studying in the UK, at the original Middlesex university. That's what I'm hoping for, as well as a chance to stay in the UK, or any other decent, safe country - aka, not the Arab world.

If I decide do my 3rd and 4th year abroad, I don't think they will support me, financially or otherwise, especially if push comes to shove and I run away. I'm thinking that if that does happen, to support myself, I can do what most students do - take a loan out from the bank, and work part-time jobs.


I wish I had some sage advice to offer you but unfortunately I am at a loss given your overall situation. You are a bright and intelligent young woman and though you will have some tough decisions to make, I am sure you will come out on top.

I wish you the very best.
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

I feel for you but can offer no simple solution other than to continue honouring your parents and their point of view, while campaigning and explaining your aspirations.

Most parents only want their children's happiness even when it goes against their own long held beliefs.

If they can see you respecting them and their views, they might, come around to respect your long term aims.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
MilkMoon
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by MilkMoon »

Clodhopper;1393744 wrote: I'm sorry again. I had guessed the Islamic connection, but assumed you were a man and I certainly hadn't realised where you lived. I've never had the honour of hearing from someone like you and I hope you are not taking too much of a risk talking to us.


No, no. It's not like that - there's no risk with me talking to you, I often communicate through the internet like this. My mother is quite liberal in her thinking, with the exception of a few things. I think the main reason she's opposed to me leaving is because it's hard for her to accept, and possibly because, as I mentioned, she believes that I owe her. My father might have some old-fashioned ideas, but he's not an extremist.

Clodhopper;1393744 wrote: You seem to be a mature and intelligent person. You will know better than I what you can and can't get away with. I can only wish you luck and make sure you know you have my complete support. I'm afraid you may have resort to deceiving your parents to get away. And I wouldn't be altogether surprised if they suspect that.


Thank you for your kind words, but I'm sure you know that they don't really help me very much. The first step was that I needed to figure out was whether I was somehow being irrational, the next is actually knowing what I'm up against and planning. I saw on your profile that you live in England; though I don't want to pester you, would you mind answering a few of my questions?
I do not want people to be agreeable, as it saves me the trouble of liking them - Austen
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Clodhopper »

Thank you for your kind words, but I'm sure you know that they don't really help me very much.


Yes. I do.

The first step was that I needed to figure out was whether I was somehow being irrational


No. You are not being irrational.

you live in England; though I don't want to pester you, would you mind answering a few of my questions?


I will do my best.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
rajakrsna
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:04 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by rajakrsna »

You could always take up medicine, MilkMoon, after graduating a course in psychology. The reason your parents want you to take up medicine is because they do not want you to get married early & be far away from home. Yes, parents like us are selfish. But you,too, will realize this when you become a parent yourself.
Om namo bagavate vasudevaya, " God is the Cause of All causes."
Nikkism
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 3:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Nikkism »

I want you to play win win,, dont make your parents angry about your decisions and try to get them out of this situation.
..............love to find [link removed by moderator]..................
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

MilkMoon;1393589 wrote: I am living in place now that I completely hate.It strikes me that the source of your problem isn't your parents, it's the law of your land. The attitudes your parents hold are normal in your society. Am I right in thinking it would be an abnormal parent in your society who would give you permission to leave the country to study abroad as an undergraduate? Most of the replies you've had completely ignore the circumstances your parents live in.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
MilkMoon
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by MilkMoon »

spot;1393823 wrote: It strikes me that the source of your problem isn't your parents, it's the law of your land. The attitudes your parents hold are normal in your society. Am I right in thinking it would be an abnormal parent in your society who would give you permission to leave the country to study abroad as an undergraduate?


Not really. Many girls here do go abroad, it's just not on their own. Sometimes it's with an older brother, or, usually, a husband. A lot of women actually get married just so that they can study/live abroad. My father would prefer that, but my mother is opposed to that idea, as am I. However, she does want me to go with my older brother, but we have to be in the same university. If he gets accepted somewhere and I don't - or vise versa - or if he just doesn't want to go to the same university as me, which like I said, is one of the two only ones that offer courses in Psychology, I'll probably be stuck studying something I can't see myself having a career in (and trust me, I've looked at every course there is, Psychology is the only one that interests me and at the same time, is a realistic option). He doesn't seem very ambitious, so I don't know what's going to happen there. Also, he's doing his SATs, I'm doing my A-levels. So that's another complication.

Most of the replies you've had completely ignore the circumstances your parents live in.


Would you care to elaborate that further? Are you referring to how society would treat them if they let me leave on my own, and possibly live away?
I do not want people to be agreeable, as it saves me the trouble of liking them - Austen
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

Marriage transfers the identity of the responsible male to the husband, it takes the decision away from the father. Presumably an older brother acts, at least in theory, in the parent's place.

By "the circumstances your parents live in" I was thinking more of the assumptions they grew up with and the taboo they'd be breaking if they gave you permission to go unaccompanied. Your father is, after all, adhering to the existing law of the land by treating this responsibility the way he is. If there were an obligatory vote tomorrow among your adult population whether to allow the right of unrestricted foreign travel to all citizens over the age of eighteen regardless of anyone's permission, do you think the majority would be in favour? I have my doubts.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
MilkMoon
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by MilkMoon »

spot;1393839 wrote: Marriage transfers the identity of the responsible male to the husband, it takes the decision away from the father. Presumably an older brother acts, at least in theory, in the parent's place.

By "the circumstances your parents live in" I was thinking more of the assumptions they grew up with and the taboo they'd be breaking if they gave you permission to go unaccompanied. Your father is, after all, adhering to the existing law of the land by treating this responsibility the way he is. If there were an obligatory vote tomorrow among your adult population whether to allow the right of unrestricted foreign travel to all citizens over the age of eighteen regardless of anyone's permission, do you think the majority would be in favour? I have my doubts.


I completely agree with you. But what is the point you're trying to make? In other words, how does the fact you just stated change anything?
I do not want people to be agreeable, as it saves me the trouble of liking them - Austen
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

MilkMoon;1393841 wrote: I completely agree with you. But what is the point you're trying to make? In other words, how does the fact you just stated change anything?


I think what should change is you, to be honest. You appear to ignore all the advantages your society's upbringing has brought you. You've been brought up in one of the safest countries in the world, protected from an immense amount of physical and mental violence which is endemic practically everywhere else. If the price of that is the traditional values which underpin that protection I'd say the net result has been an overwhelming benefit. What's more, if you succeed in undermining those values in the way you apparently intend, generations to come will be deprived of the benefits you've had.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by AnneBoleyn »

spot;1393843 wrote: i think what should change is you, to be honest. You appear to ignore all the advantages your society's upbringing has brought you. You've been brought up in one of the safest countries in the world, protected from an immense amount of physical and mental violence which is endemic practically everywhere else. If the price of that is the traditional values which underpin that protection i'd say the net result has been an overwhelming benefit. What's more, if you succeed in undermining those values in the way you apparently intend, generations to come will be deprived of the benefits you've had.
spot come up with an explanation about the true intent of your outrageous repulsive advice. Are you mad?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

AnneBoleyn;1393845 wrote: spot come up with an explanation about the true intent of your outrageous repulsive advice. Are you mad?I see cultures as endangered creations which have taken thousands of years to build, they're valuable and they're fragile. I'd like to see as many survive into the future as possible. I also see an imperial attempt at imposing sameness on every country and every people and I disapprove of it.

I'll give you a plain choice, do you want countries and borders and difference, or do you want a one-world solution where everyone is a world citizen with residency and work rights anywhere they want to move? That's an either-or. If you go for one-world then cultural expression will happen within that setting under a single legal system, the way Yorkshire and Somerset and Kent continue to express different cultural ways. If you go for countries with their own legal systems then cultural expression will happen within nations imposing laws by majority consent of their own citizenry. What you bloody well can't have is a half-way house where you externally impose the legal system you want but refuse the work and residency rights.

Which would you prefer?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

Cultures are 'creations' ?

Cultures are valuable and fragile ?

My gob has not been so smacked for ages and ages.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1393855 wrote: Cultures are 'creations' ?

Cultures are valuable and fragile ?

My gob has not been so smacked for ages and ages.


And my flabber has never been so ghasted.

It wasn't so long ago Spot was banging on about Britain accepting multi culterism and Islam living alongside or among Christianity. Now It appears, he wants them serperate but then Spot's posts do tend to change tact to suit when called for.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

He's a bit of a laugh ain't he ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

Britain is multicultural, long may it continue. I'd not dream of trying to change that essential fact. What aspect of British culture isn't a consequence of multiculturalism? Pick any historical period when you try answering that.

Some other countries aren't.

If anyone would like to actually address "Which would you prefer" in answer to the associated question I'd be interested to read what they have to say.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1393858 wrote: He's a bit of a laugh ain't he ? No.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

spot;1393859 wrote:

If anyone would like to actually address "Which would you prefer" in answer to the associated question I'd be interested to read what they have to say.


Which would I prefer ?

Concerning Saudia Arabia ?

I don't have a choice...............but I hope Saudi citizen might.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1393859 wrote: Britain is multicultural, long may it continue. I'd not dream of trying to change that essential fact. What aspect of British culture isn't a consequence of multiculturalism? Pick any historical period when you try answering that.

Some other countries aren't.

If anyone would like to actually address "Which would you prefer" in answer to the associated question I'd be interested to read what they have to say.


Because you're being hypocritical....

On one hand you find It perfectly acceptable for the UK to build Mosques and Introduce Haalal butchers In our high streets to accomodate the Muslim faith yet you do not accept that a young lady from Saudi may wish to have the same freedom of choice that the West enjoys. So what Is It Spot ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

Bruv;1393862 wrote: Which would I prefer ?

Concerning Saudia Arabia ?

I don't have a choice...............but I hope Saudi citizen might.


The OP and I already dealt with that question when I asked "If there were an obligatory vote tomorrow among your adult population whether to allow the right of unrestricted foreign travel to all citizens over the age of eighteen regardless of anyone's permission, do you think the majority would be in favour?", both the OP and I agreeing that they very likely would not. I think that implies a preference for keeping their own legal system.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1393864 wrote: The OP and I already dealt with that question when I asked "If there were an obligatory vote tomorrow among your adult population whether to allow the right of unrestricted foreign travel to all citizens over the age of eighteen regardless of anyone's permission, do you think the majority would be in favour?", both the OP and I agreeing that they very likely would not. I think that implies a preference for keeping their own legal system.


The lady came here for advice. Not opinions and political bias and bigotry.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

spot;1393864 wrote: The OP and I already dealt with that question when I asked "If there were an obligatory vote tomorrow among your adult population whether to allow the right of unrestricted foreign travel to all citizens over the age of eighteen regardless of anyone's permission, do you think the majority would be in favour?", both the OP and I agreeing that they very likely would not. I think that implies a preference for keeping their own legal system.


And that's it ????

No get out clause ?

Locked in forever ?

No room at all for dissenters/change ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bruv;1393866 wrote: And that's it ????

No get out clause ?

Locked in forever ?

No room at all for dissenters/change ?


And yet he Is quite happy with the very demographics of Britain being changed by Islam.......
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

oscar;1393863 wrote: Because you're being hypocritical....

On one hand you find It perfectly acceptable for the UK to build Mosques and Introduce Haalal butchers In our high streets to accomodate the Muslim faith yet you do not accept that a young lady from Saudi may wish to have the same freedom of choice that the West enjoys. So what Is It Spot ?


Other than copy-pasting all I've written into this thread in answer to your question? Go back and read what I've written here, the answer's pervasive.

Of course I "accept that a young lady from Saudi may wish to have the same freedom of choice that the West enjoys". What I wrote is that it's selfish of her to do so, it would be detrimental to her society. The benefits to her of growing up in that country far outweigh the patrician insensitivity her culture and her national law displays when it claims the right to restrict her lifestyle. It's saved her from half-naked hookers strolling around red light districts, it's saved her and her cohort from theft and rape and forced exposure to unlimited and unavoidable pornographic imagery. Saudi Arabia is a cultural oasis compared to most of the planet - I'm thinking particularly of Mardi Gras here. Long may it continue that way.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

oscar;1393865 wrote: The lady came here for advice. Not opinions and political bias and bigotry.


I'm trying to offer it in a non-controversial conversational way. If you stopped barging in at me I might manage to have that conversation.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

Bruv;1393866 wrote: And that's it ????

No get out clause ?

Locked in forever ?

No room at all for dissenters/change ?Until the majority view changes? That, surely, is the essence of the social contract.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

oscar;1393867 wrote: And yet he Is quite happy with the very demographics of Britain being changed by Islam.......


What aspect of British demographics isn't a consequence of multiculturalism? Pick any historical period when you try answering that.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

spot;1393868 wrote: What I wrote is that it's selfish of her to do so, it would be detrimental to her society. The benefits to her of growing up in that country far outweigh the patrician insensitivity her culture and her national law displays when it claims the right to restrict her lifestyle.


So YOU say, let me repeat that bit again "The benefits to her of growing up in that country far outweigh the patrician insensitivity her culture"

Do you honestly believe that ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Bruv »

spot;1393870 wrote: Until the majority view changes? That, surely, is the essence of the social contract.


She is the vanguard of change.................nobody said it would be easy.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

Bruv;1393872 wrote: So YOU say, let me repeat that bit again "The benefits to her of growing up in that country far outweigh the patrician insensitivity her culture"

Do you honestly believe that ?As it happens, yes. Far more important is whether MilkMoon believes it, I'd like to read her view when she's next here. Perhaps she does, perhaps she doesn't. Whichever it is it'll be an interesting statement and I hope she'll go into detail when she explains it.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

Bruv;1393873 wrote: She is the vanguard of change.................nobody said it would be easy.


Then scuttling out of the country and abandoning the struggle from within would be a bit feeble if that's what she ends up doing.

I've no problem with her changing it, I object to it being changed by McDonalds and Starbucks and Playboy.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1393874 wrote: As it happens, yes. Far more important is whether MilkMoon believes it, I'd like to read her view when she's next here. Perhaps she does, perhaps she doesn't. Whichever it is it'll be an interesting statement and I hope she'll go into detail when she explains it. And there we have the very definition of repression.... So to hang with what she wants as long as she's told by some smart arsse know It all that she's better off as she Is.....
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

oscar;1393876 wrote: And there we have the very definition of repression.... So to hang with what she wants as long as she's told by some smart arsse know It all that she's better off as she Is.....


Compared to most girls, Western or otherwise, she's been brought up in paradise.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

spot;1393877 wrote: Compared to most girls, Western or otherwise, she's been brought up in paradise.
Then take your family to live there.

This Is a country that rates women as second class citizens, forces them to cover their heads, barrs them from driving a car etc etc.....

She's better off coming to the UK and claiming asylum.... At least then she would have freedom of choice.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

oscar;1393878 wrote: Then take your family to live there.

This Is a country that rates women as second class citizens, forces them to cover their heads, barrs them from driving a car etc etc.....

She's better off coming to the UK and claiming asylum.... At least then she would have freedom of choice.I'll be interested to hear her opinion, since it will be well-informed. What she says will add to my understanding of the issue.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by gmc »

spot;1393868 wrote: Other than copy-pasting all I've written into this thread in answer to your question? Go back and read what I've written here, the answer's pervasive.

Of course I "accept that a young lady from Saudi may wish to have the same freedom of choice that the West enjoys". What I wrote is that it's selfish of her to do so, it would be detrimental to her society. The benefits to her of growing up in that country far outweigh the patrician insensitivity her culture and her national law displays when it claims the right to restrict her lifestyle. It's saved her from half-naked hookers strolling around red light districts, it's saved her and her cohort from theft and rape and forced exposure to unlimited and unavoidable pornographic imagery. Saudi Arabia is a cultural oasis compared to most of the planet - I'm thinking particularly of Mardi Gras here. Long may it continue that way.


What utter bollocks. That is like arguing that slaves should accept their lot because overall the society in which they live benefits from their situation. You also seem to have the puritans obsession with sex and pornography.

A family and culture can be like a cocoon to keep you safe but it is also a prison with bars of familial obligation and tradition instead of steel and you can waste a lifetime trying to make other people happy before you realise their happiness was at your expense. If milkmoon wants to be a butterfly then I would say go for it as to how to I have no idea. She really is not free to do as she wishes, any other 18 year old in the UK or europe would be an adult free to make her own choices and most parents would respect them and try to guide rather than control. Her mother is perhaps worried about what the consequences of defiance might be for her. There are plenty of Islamic societies where women have equal rights the saudis aren't preserving their culture they are pandering to backward religious misogynists in order to keep power because they don't have the nerve to allow their people the vote. Or perhaps they are fending off the religious extremists that would destroy the country. The wars between catjholic and protestant are amongst the most horrific in history in terms of the atrocities carried out, same with shia and sunni. We used to imprison suffragettes for their daring to suggest a centuries old culture was perhaps wrong and needed changing.

posted by spot

Then scuttling out of the country and abandoning the struggle from within would be a bit feeble if that's what she ends up doing.


Getting to the west and claiming asylum doesn't seem much of a choice maybe it's the only practical one at the moment.

posted by spot

Compared to most girls, Western or otherwise, she's been brought up in paradise.


It was a woman that led the way there as well - allegedly. Paradise is relative and it's only truly paradise if you can go or stay as you chose.

Neither her or her parents are being selfish they're just living in the culture they were born in to.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38767
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by spot »

I'm interested to see what MilkMoon has to say about these assorted points of view.

As for "the saudis aren't preserving their culture they are pandering to backward religious misogynists in order to keep power because they don't have the nerve to allow their people the vote", two points. Saudi Arabia doesn't allow its citizens to amend the constitution but then, that's true of the UK too. We're both monarchies. We both have local and national parliaments with elected members. We both have regular elections with full adult suffrage.

Secondly, I agree with you that the ruling class in Saudi Arabia is using the "backward religious misogynists" as an excuse and a shield for maintaining the cultural norm. As you say, other societies with Muslim majorities manage equality issues without the paternalism.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Who is being selfish: me or my parents?

Post by Clodhopper »

I simply don't know how far they will go in Saudi. If it were Pakistan I would not be at all surprised to learn that her Dad had married her off quick, suspecting she might want to get away, and that would be the last we heard from her. But does that happen in Saudi Arabia too?

Edit: I know they behead people (and wasn't there a stoning not long back? Or was that somewhere else?. But often in these places people conform outwardly but live very differently in the family. Don't know how far Saudi Arabia is like that.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."

Return to “Friends, Relationships, Advice”