US homeless - request for national total government statistic

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Post by spot »

If anyone ever tries to find a government count of the total US homeless, would they write a paragraph here about what they did and what they found please? This seems a good place for it. To focus, what I mean by homeless is living outdoors or in overnight hostels for, say, a minimum of a week. I don't mean people with no home sleeping at a series of friends' houses, I mean people in a sleeping bag in a car because they've no means of renting a room.
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spot;909379 wrote: If anyone ever tries to find a government count of the total US homeless, would they write a paragraph here about what they did and what they found please? This seems a good place for it.
I disagree. This isn't the place to run down anyone or anything. I sought to point out that even those ignored and forgotten often affect someone's life positively.
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Post by spot »

Accountable;909380 wrote: I disagree. This isn't the place to run down anyone or anything. I sought to point out that even those ignored and forgotten often affect someone's life positively.


I'm not running down anyone or anything unless it's possibly the difficulty of finding official figures for that sort of statistic which ought to be readily available. I'll move the request out of the thread though.
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Post by Patsy Warnick »

Spot

How would the Govt. be able to keep stats on that"actual homeless", no means to supply a roof over their head, the ones with shopping carts - sleeping bags.

The homeless grows daily - majority of people are one foot close to the curb.

The total would be more than any stat in black & white - these are hard times..

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Post by spot »

What we do in England is have people out on the streets of all the major cities and of a lot of representative towns and country areas regularly counting, and the statisticians then extrapolate on the basis of those totals and the counts' variations when they flood a small area and spot-check how many slip through the cracks. We think it's important here to get a firm grip on at least knowing the size of the problem so that we can scream loudly if the total goes up. I trust the government statistics on this particular count to be as good as it can be got. If it were 20% adrift I'd be disappointed.

I've spent weeks digging through layers of US government statistics sites brushing aside deliberate obfuscation. Your government quite simply doesn't want to know, and it's determined that nobody else should know either.
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Post by Accountable »

I found this in this doc linked from Housing & Urban Development (HUD). Here's the excerpt about the numbers.

NATIONAL ESTIMATES OF HOMELESSNESS

There are several national estimates of homelessness. Many are dated, or based on dated

information. For all of the reasons discussed above, none of these estimates is the definitive

representation of "how many people are homeless.” The best approximation is from a study

done by the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty which states that approximately

3.5 million people, 1.35 million of them children, are likely to experience homelessness in a

given year (National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty, 2007).

These numbers, based on findings from the National Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty,

Urban Institute and specifically the National Survey of Homeless Assistance Providers, draw

their estimates from a study of service providers across the country at two different times of the

year in 1996. They found that, on a given night in October, 444,000 people (in 346,000

households) experienced homelessness – which translates to 6.3% of the population of people

living in poverty. On a given night in February, 842,000 (in 637,000 households) experienced

homelessness – which translates to almost 10% of the population of people living in poverty.

Converting these estimates into an annual projection, the numbers that emerge are 2.3 million

people (based on the October estimate) and 3.5 million people (based on the February estimate).

This translates to approximately 1% of the U.S. population experiencing homelessness each year,

38% (October) to 39% (February) of them being children (Urban Institute 2000).

It is also important to note that this study was based on a national survey of service providers.

Since not all people experiencing homelessness utilize service providers, the actual numbers of

people experiencing homelessness are likely higher than those found in the study, Thus, we are

estimating on the high end of the study’s numbers: 3.5 million people, 39% of which are children

(Urban Institute 2000).

In early 2007, the National Alliance to End Homelessness reported a point-in-time estimate of

744,313 people experiencing homelessness in January 2005.

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Post by Peg »

spot;909388 wrote: What we do in England is have people out on the streets of all the major cities and of a lot of representative towns and country areas regularly counting, and the statisticians then extrapolate on the basis of those totals and the counts' variations when they flood a small area and spot-check how many slip through the cracks. We think it's important here to get a firm grip on at least knowing the size of the problem so that we can scream loudly if the total goes up. I trust the government statistics on this particular count to be as good as it can be got. If it were 20% adrift I'd be disappointed.

I've spent weeks digging through layers of US government statistics sites brushing aside deliberate obfuscation. Your government quite simply doesn't want to know, and it's determined that nobody else should know either.


So what IS the total of homeless people in England?
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Post by spot »

Peg;909430 wrote: So what IS the total of homeless people in England?


Between 700 and 800 across England and Wales, last time I looked. Accountable's page is a good summary of what I found when I looked, I'm impressed that he found all that in one place but it does highlight that there's no National Statistics centre keeping track. I'd call that lack of monitoring a problem.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;909445 wrote: Between 700 and 800 across England and Wales, last time I looked. Accountable's page is a good summary of what I found when I looked, I'm impressed that he found all that in one place but it does highlight that there's no National Statistics centre keeping track. I'd call that lack of monitoring a problem.
That's a fallicy that if the federal gov't isn't doing it it isn't getting done.



Check state by state.

http://www.dcf.state.fl.us/homelessness ... ortweb.pdf

http://www.tich.state.tx.us/pdf/HomelessSurvey.pdf

http://www.iowapolicyproject.org/2006do ... ess&MH.pdf

New York City has separate tracking for children and adults

http://www.empirestatecoalition.org/STA ... 202005.pdf

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/p ... 200512.pdf
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Post by spot »

Accountable;909683 wrote: That's a fallicy that if the federal gov't isn't doing it it isn't getting done.



Check state by state.The lack of a central lookup point for national statistics of this sensitivity is telling in its own right. It's not a question of who's responsible for collecting the data, it's the deliberate refusal to make the results easily available. What's more, having no national standard means the state figures can't be compared like for like. Are you saying you can't see any benefit to the American political system in hiding the facts this way?
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Post by Accountable »

spot;909697 wrote: The lack of a central lookup point for national statistics of this sensitivity is telling in its own right. It's not a question of who's responsible for collecting the data, it's the deliberate refusal to make the results easily available. What's more, having no national standard means the state figures can't be compared like for like. Are you saying you can't see any benefit to the American political system in hiding the facts this way?
The UK is the size of Oregon, with substantially more population (something like TX and CA combined). States are better equipped to track their own homeless problems.



Having no international standard means we can't compare the UK with the US like for like. Should we have a global gov't to set standards for all?
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Post by spot »

Accountable;909725 wrote: Having no international standard means we can't compare the UK with the US like for like. Should we have a global gov't to set standards for all?If you're offering! Thank you!
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Post by CARLA »

Spot here is the break down for San Diego California. The cities ppopulation is close to 3 million and growing. We do a fairly good job of tracking our homeless. The weather brings many from all over the State here. You can live outside almost 365 days a year. :(

[QUOTE]During the fall of 2005, the Regional Task Force on the Homeless along with Point Loma Nazarene University-Center for Justice and Reconciliation and San Diego State University-Institute for Public Health set out to develop and implement a new methodology for counting the homeless (see page 5 for details of the methodology). The Alliance Healthcare Foundation graciously funded this partnership called Sharing the San Diego Story. This report is only one piece of the Sharing the San Diego Story process. Our partners in this endeavor will also be collecting, analyzing and reporting on additional aspects related to our homeless population. This report focuses on the responsibilities of the RTFH, for conducting, producing and reporting on the first San Diego Regional Homeless Count.

What follows is a snapshot of the findings of the January & April 2006 counts, which are discussed in greater detail throughout this document.

The San Diego homeless population is divided into two general groups: urban homeless persons and homeless farm workers and day laborers (also referred to as rural homeless). Current Point-In-Time estimates of the homeless population in these two groups total at least 6,968. These are Point-In-Time estimates only. Many different persons move into and out of homelessness throughout the year. For example, in one year San Diego Healthcare for the Homeless made tens of thousands of outreach contacts. In addition, last year ServicePoint the RTFH Homeless Management Information System (HMIS) and the St. Vincent de Paul, Inc. HMIS, CSTAR had more than ten thousand homeless persons entered into their systems combined. These do not include the numbers of homeless not seeking assistance.

URBAN HOMELESS: The urban homeless population is estimated at 6,363. The following are estimates of the urban homeless subpopulations. It is likely that the subpopulation profile numbers are estimated low and could be increased by 10 percent.

Single Adults comprise 81 percent (5,193) of the urban homeless population.

Family members make up to 39 percent (2,472) of the urban homeless population.

Youth on Their Own, about 377 homeless street youth reside in the region at any given time. On any given night, there may be numerous additional teenage runaways in the San Diego region. Many of whom may return home after a few days and are not considered homeless.

Other Subpopulation Profiles:

Chronic Homeless: are considered by HUD to be an unaccompanied homeless individual with a disabling condition who has either been continuously homeless for a year or more OR has had at least four episodes of homelessness in the past three years. The chronic homeless population is estimated at least 1,306 persons.

Domestic Violence: More than 913 homeless family members are in need of domestic violence services at any given point-in-time. These numbers reflect only reported instances of domestic violence. It is believed that there are additional family members in need of DV services but do not report it.

Persons with HIV / AIDS: There are over 162 persons with AIDS who are unsheltered in San Diego County. This population is extremely difficult to estimate as not all homeless persons bother to get tested and therefore may go uncounted.

Mentally Ill Persons: There are over 1,253 severely mentally ill homeless persons in San Diego County. Homeless persons suffer from a variety of mental illnesses, which differ in their cause, course, and treatment.

Senior Homeless Persons: There are at least 146 homeless seniors at any given point-in-time in our region. Homelessness among seniors continues to increase due to Social Security or other fixed income sources not keeping up with expenses.

Substance (Alcohol &/or Drug) Users: About 2,900 urban homeless adults may abuse alcohol or drugs. This number may be larger as some individuals may not provide accurate information about themselves when accessing shelter services.

Veterans: Estimated at over 1,137, homeless veterans represent at least eighteen percent of the urban homeless adults in our region.

Panhandlers are a permanent part of any metropolitan landscape. These individuals are persistent symbols of homelessness, but actually may not be homeless.

FARM WORKERS AND DAY LABORERS: More than 1,605 adult farm workers and day laborers live in encampments throughout the region. The workers’ tenuous living conditions and their geographical, linguistic and cultural isolation make it very difficult to closely estimate their numbers. This number is low because we were unable to get into many local canyons to count.[/QUOTE]
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Post by spot »

CARLA;909742 wrote: Spot here is the break down for San Diego California. The cities ppopulation is close to 3 million and growing. We do a fairly good job of tracking our homeless. The weather brings many from all over the State here. You can live outside almost 365 days a year. :(Thank you Carla. I still feel it's impossible to get a good national picture - even the pressure groups most concerned nationally say how impossible it is to produce reliable or meaningful estimates of US homeless totals. If they can't collate the hundreds of sites like the one you showed, remove duplication, fill in gaps, estimate the coverage - how am I supposed to? The thread is primarily to discuss that difficulty and the reason for it and whether it's a consequence of the US political system preferring that the facts be swept under the carpet rather than known, tracked and watched for changes.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;909730 wrote: If you're offering! Thank you!
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Post by Lon »

As of June 23, 2008, Los Angeles, California estimates that there are 141,737 homeless living in the area.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;909445 wrote: Between 700 and 800 across England and Wales, last time I looked. Accountable's page is a good summary of what I found when I looked, I'm impressed that he found all that in one place but it does highlight that there's no National Statistics centre keeping track. I'd call that lack of monitoring a problem.
I've got to question the accuracy of that stat, Spat, er, Spot. :o



I think the fine upstanding British government might be defining "homeless" just a bit more, um, specifically than our gov'ts are.
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Post by spot »

Accountable;910076 wrote: I've got to question the accuracy of that stat, Spat, er, Spot. :o



I think the fine upstanding British government might be defining "homeless" just a bit more, um, specifically than our gov'ts are.


People sleeping rough - outdoors, that is - who don't have their own place to go to (that excludes a few, not many, who sleep rough through choice while having a rented or owned alternative). Would you prefer me to go and find the official site so you can see the official definition? It's pretty close to that.

How would you define homeless?

Rough sleeping counts are conducted by local authorities in partnership with local homeless agencies. Street counts provide a useful snap shot of the number of people sleeping rough in a given geographical area on a single night. Single night counts may not capture the number of people who may have experience of sleeping rough over the course of a year but they enable progress to be measured over time and across regions.

We estimate that as at June 2007 there were 498 people sleeping rough in England on any single night. This figure is an update of the rough sleeping estimate published annually since June 1998.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/h ... tatistics/



England has [...] 50,431,700 inhabitants [2006 figure]

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6



eta: I apologise, I've checked the official method, there's no exclusion from the count on the basis of having a place of your own to go to, that really is the actual raw count of people sleeping rough in England. I'm sure though, for all that I can't find it written down, they ask an inoffensive "haven't you got a home you could go to" before tallying someone. I'm guessing, I haven't been tallied.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 4.htm_wqn9
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Post by Accountable »

Do you count people who find temporary free shelter? The majority of our numbers are such people.
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Accountable;910084 wrote: Do you count people who find temporary free shelter? The majority of our numbers are such people.


Of course not, they're not rough sleepers - and the free shelter accommodation they find isn't temporary, it's guaranteed. How else do you think we get the figure that low?

I refer you to my thread title - "US homeless - request for national total government statistic". My entire point is that I'm not looking for what little your government wants to fob me off with, I'm looking for a count of the number of bodies sleeping rough in the USA. My first post said it - "I mean people in a sleeping bag in a car because they've no means of renting a room".
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Post by spot »

This category of Carla's for San Diego, for example, are all obviously sleeping rough - just look at the wording. Canyons?FARM WORKERS AND DAY LABORERS: More than 1,605 adult farm workers and day laborers live in encampments throughout the region. The workers’ tenuous living conditions and their geographical, linguistic and cultural isolation make it very difficult to closely estimate their numbers. This number is low because we were unable to get into many local canyons to count.You're not pretending they're in temporary accomodation, are you?
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spot;910087 wrote: This category of Carla's for San Diego, for example, are all obviously sleeping rough - just look at the wording. Canyons?

FARM WORKERS AND DAY LABORERS: More than 1,605 adult farm workers and day laborers live in encampments throughout the region. The workers’ tenuous living conditions and their geographical, linguistic and cultural isolation make it very difficult to closely estimate their numbers. This number is low because we were unable to get into many local canyons to count.

You're not pretending they're in temporary accomodation, are you?
Oh! So "homeless" doesn't mean people with nowhere to go, necessarily. People with nowhere to live who are lucky enough to find a cot under a hard roof but have no real idea of where tomorrow's meal is coming from - not homeless. Fully employed migrant worker earning a living for himself and his family, but sleeping in a tent at night - homeless. Is that right??
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spot;909445 wrote: Between 700 and 800 across England and Wales, last time I looked. Accountable's page is a good summary of what I found when I looked, I'm impressed that he found all that in one place but it does highlight that there's no National Statistics centre keeping track. I'd call that lack of monitoring a problem.


Apples & Oranges

Population

England 50,762,900

Northern Ireland 1,741,600

Scotland 5,116,900

Wales 2,965,900

United Kingdom 60,587,600



U.S. 304,540,166

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Post by Accountable »

spot;910087 wrote: This category of Carla's for San Diego, for example, are all obviously sleeping rough - just look at the wording. Canyons?

FARM WORKERS AND DAY LABORERS: More than 1,605 adult farm workers and day laborers live in encampments throughout the region. The workers’ tenuous living conditions and their geographical, linguistic and cultural isolation make it very difficult to closely estimate their numbers. This number is low because we were unable to get into many local canyons to count.

You're not pretending they're in temporary accomodation, are you?
The peace protestors camped outside RAF Greenham common all those years fit your definition of homeless. :-2
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Post by Accountable »

Nomad;910236 wrote: Apples & Oranges



Population

England 50,762,900

Northern Ireland 1,741,600

Scotland 5,116,900

Wales 2,965,900

United Kingdom 60,587,600



U.S. 304,540,166


That's why I recommended comparing them to one or two of our states. Some of our smaller states have similar density, while Oregon's land area matched the UK fairly closely. Combine CA & TX and the population is close to 60m. The problem for communication though is the definition of homeless.
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Post by Nomad »

Im sure there must be some significant element of homeless people that dont want to be counted.

Some may have dropped out and adapted.

I dont know if its possible to ever have a definitive #
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

spot;909379 wrote: If anyone ever tries to find a government count of the total US homeless, would they write a paragraph here about what they did and what they found please? This seems a good place for it. To focus, what I mean by homeless is living outdoors or in overnight hostels for, say, a minimum of a week. I don't mean people with no home sleeping at a series of friends' houses, I mean people in a sleeping bag in a car because they've no means of renting a room.


Go here and you will find every bit of information you seek. Homeless
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Post by spot »

Accountable;910233 wrote: Oh! So "homeless" doesn't mean people with nowhere to go, necessarily. People with nowhere to live who are lucky enough to find a cot under a hard roof but have no real idea of where tomorrow's meal is coming from - not homeless. Fully employed migrant worker earning a living for himself and his family, but sleeping in a tent at night - homeless. Is that right??They sound like reasonable categories to me. I'm impressed by your ability to twist those people in canyons on a bedroll - where did the tent come from? - into "fully employed" - what's the use of fully employed in a society with a minimum wage set so low as to leave people in that condition?

Nomad;910236 wrote: Apples & OrangesReally, I have no clue what you mean by putting those figures up. Yes one could express homelessness as a rate rather than a number, I've no problem with either since I can convert between them. The apples and oranges surely has to be whether what's counted are the same things, not how many you can see or how dense they are. Inside the hidden facts is that for every person in England there's six Americans, and for every homeless person in England there's six thousand homeless people in America. Approximately.

Homelessness occurs a thousand times more frequently in the USA than in England. The reason for that is the capitalist policies of the USA's political parties and the socialist policies of England's political parties. What would you choose as a better indicator of the difference between the countries?

Accountable;910261 wrote: The peace protestors camped outside RAF Greenham common all those years fit your definition of homeless. :-2No, they have a home to go to. So do people at rock festivals. Being under canvas has nothing to do with being homeless. The homeless have no home. The core is simple even if the facts are wilfully obscured.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;910385 wrote: Go here and you will find every bit of information you seek. Homeless


What that article tells me is that US national government refuses, despite being asked on many occasions, to tally homelessness across the country. Your national statistics unit is corrupted by politics and its director should resign in protest if he has any integrity at all. Pretending there's no problem by refusing to look at it lacks integrity.
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spot;910515 wrote: They sound like reasonable categories to me. I'm impressed by your ability to twist those people in canyons on a bedroll - where did the tent come from? - into "fully employed" - what's the use of fully employed in a society with a minimum wage set so low as to leave people in that condition?Unless I'm mistaken, migrant farm workers make above minimum wage. Not that that matters. Minimum wage is irrellevant regarding migrant workers because my gov't refuses to enforce the immigration laws. Most of them are illegal aliens - criminals. They didn't mention a tent, true. They didn't mention bedrolls, either, so that means they must be force to sleep naked on rocks, right?



spot wrote: Homelessness occurs a thousand times more frequently in the USA than in England. The reason for that is the capitalist policies of the USA's political parties and the socialist policies of England's political parties. What would you choose as a better indicator of the difference between the countries?You're first statement is not provable because we haven't even agreed on how to define the term.



spot wrote: No, they have a home to go to. So do people at rock festivals. Being under canvas has nothing to do with being homeless. The homeless have no home. The core is simple even if the facts are wilfully obscured.Does London have temporary shelters? Assuming they do, are the people that utilize them considered homeless?
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Post by spot »

Accountable;910661 wrote: You're first statement is not provable because we haven't even agreed on how to define the term.



Does London have temporary shelters? Assuming they do, are the people that utilize them considered homeless?


My first statement is not provable because your government refuses to make plain common national definitions and counts available. As an order of magnitude estimate I think I made a fair guess when comparing those who sleep rough in each country.

No, neither London nor any of the cities have temporary shelters, we have a proper safety net which guarantees a place to stay for anyone who wants to use it for as long as they want to use it. The rough sleepers are the ones who've slipped through the safety net for one reason or another, that's why it's an important count to watch. Some of them are illegal immigrants who sleep rough rather than face arrest and deportation if they ask for help. Some of them have a phobia about going into local authority hostels, where those exist. Some are in areas with no local authority hostels and badly-informed advice teams who don't know how to set up bed and breakfast provision for people who say they've no ability to house themselves.

It's not impossible that there are difficulties still in some local authority areas with descriptions of "voluntarily homeless" being applied to people who in practical fact aren't - as far as I know that classification's redundant and obsolete but a very small number of people still come out with it as a reason they've had problems when asking for a safe room to stay in. I know of one instance, anyway.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;910684 wrote: My first statement is not provable because your government refuses to make plain common national definitions and counts available. As an order of magnitude estimate I think I made a fair guess when comparing those who sleep rough in each country.



No, neither London nor any of the cities have temporary shelters, we have a proper safety net which guarantees a place to stay for anyone who wants to use it for as long as they want to use it. The rough sleepers are the ones who've slipped through the safety net for one reason or another, that's why it's an important count to watch. Some of them are illegal immigrants who sleep rough rather than face arrest and deportation if they ask for help. Some of them have a phobia about going into local authority hostels, where those exist. Some are in areas with no local authority hostels and badly-informed advice teams who don't know how to set up bed and breakfast provision for people who say they've no ability to house themselves.



It's not impossible that there are difficulties still in some local authority areas with descriptions of "voluntarily homeless" being applied to people who in practical fact aren't - as far as I know that classification's redundant and obsolete but a very small number of people still come out with it as a reason they've had problems when asking for a safe room to stay in. I know of one instance, anyway.
First, I find it hard - no, impossible - to believe that less than 1000 out of over 60 million meet the definition of homeless as defined in the US.

Second, Simply being homeless is not necessarily a reason for gov't concern; being unable - unable - to find a place to sleep when involuntarily homeless is.

Third, for those very few that have fallen through the cracks here in the US, it is not a concern for the federal gov't beyond possibly monitoring individual state efforts to ensure that reasonable efforts are exhausted to solve the problem.
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Post by Nomad »

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomad

Apples & Oranges

[QUOTE] spot

Really, I have no clue what you mean by putting those figures up. Yes one could express homelessness as a rate rather than a number,

Yes you do. If youre talking about numbers its impossible not to account for the vast difference in population between the countries.

We'll be apples and you can be oranges.

spot

I've no problem with either since I can convert between them. The apples and oranges surely has to be whether what's counted are the same things, not how many you can see or how dense they are. Inside the hidden facts is that for every person in England there's six Americans, and for every homeless person in England there's six thousand homeless people in America. Approximately.



If the US doesnt tally that kind of information, which is the statement you made how on Earth did you come up with a figure. Fess up, you pulled that right out of your butt didnt ya ?

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Post by spot »

Accountable;911216 wrote: First, I find it hard - no, impossible - to believe that less than 1000 out of over 60 million meet the definition of homeless as defined in the US.

Second, Simply being homeless is not necessarily a reason for gov't concern; being unable - unable - to find a place to sleep when involuntarily homeless is.

Third, for those very few that have fallen through the cracks here in the US, it is not a concern for the federal gov't beyond possibly monitoring individual state efforts to ensure that reasonable efforts are exhausted to solve the problem.


Where's this "definition of homeless as defined in the US."? We've been looking for it.

I've said what the 498 people are defined as - the average sum total of rough sleepers in England. That's what the government here counts. Why do you insist that they "meet the definition of homeless as defined in the US" - especially since your national government, as far as I can see, deliberately HAS no such definition? Where is it? I've looked. Even if they had one they don't count a number and publish it!

"for those very few that have fallen through the cracks here in the US"? How many's that, Acc? It's what I started out by asking and all you've done is gone in a circle. How many is it, these very few you speak of, this total number of people sleeping rough in the USA who have no home of their own?
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Post by spot »

Nomad wrote: If the US doesnt tally that kind of information, which is the statement you made how on Earth did you come up with a figure. Fess up, you pulled that right out of your butt didnt ya ?

Yes, of course I did. Partly by extrapolation. It's an order of magnitude estimate. What would you say a better estimate is? Why do you think it's so hard to get a better total?
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Post by Accountable »

spot;911536 wrote: Where's this "definition of homeless as defined in the US."? We've been looking for it.



I've said what the 498 people are defined as - the average sum total of rough sleepers in England. That's what the government here counts. Why do you insist that they "meet the definition of homeless as defined in the US" - especially since your national government, as far as I can see, deliberately HAS no such definition? Where is it? I've looked. Even if they had one they don't count a number and publish it!



"for those very few that have fallen through the cracks here in the US"? How many's that, Acc? It's what I started out by asking and all you've done is gone in a circle. How many is it, these very few you speak of, this total number of people sleeping rough in the USA who have no home of their own?
Okay, let's use your government's definitions. Explain 'sleeping rough' please. That should be a good starting point.
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Post by spot »

Accountable;911649 wrote: Okay, let's use your government's definitions. Explain 'sleeping rough' please. That should be a good starting point.


People who are sleeping outdoors because they have no home to sleep in and can't afford to lodge or rent or lease or own one for any significant period before they lose it through an inability to pay.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;911755 wrote: People who are sleeping outdoors because they have no home to sleep in and can't afford to lodge or rent or lease or own one for any significant period before they lose it through an inability to pay.
Significant period?
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Post by sunny104 »

I'm curious how anybody could get an exact count when there are people who have been homeless for years or even decades and find their own way to survive instead of utilizing any of the resources available to them?
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Post by spot »

Accountable;911760 wrote: Significant period?


You wanted an explanation of who these people are, and I'm aware that some of them may have enough cash in their pocket to buy a night or two in a hostel but prefer to stay off rock bottom where they wouldn't even manage to eat. My thinking is that they've exhausted their friends by sleeping on couches one time too many, their parents and siblings are no longer a choice for them for any of a number of possibly sordid reasons, if they owned or rented they've lost their home, they have no resources available to pay for overnight lodging if they're not soon to be totally unable to buy anything at all. Those people are rough sleepers. A significant period for being able to pay for accommodation without running out of money? Weeks, I'd imagine. If I were down to my last week's rental money and then I'd stop eating, I think I'd keep the cash and sleep out so I could have longer to find work. Once your out then getting somewhere to live takes things like a deposit and money in advance, if you're homeless you have to build that cash up before you can get off the streets. I've never been quite that low so I'm not speaking from experience. I can see why people would be sleeping rough while building up a lump sum sufficient to get back under a roof though.

That's explanation, not definition. Rough sleepers are people who are sleeping outdoors because they have no home to sleep in and can't afford to lodge or rent or lease or own one for any significant period before they lose it through an inability to pay.
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Post by spot »

sunny104;911763 wrote: I'm curious how anybody could get an exact count when there are people who have been homeless for years or even decades and find their own way to survive instead of utilizing any of the resources available to them?


I don't need an exact count sunny, I'm asking for a national total US government statistic which seems not to be tallied and made public by any of your government departments.
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Post by Accountable »

spot;911769 wrote: You wanted an explanation of who these people are, and I'm aware that some of them may have enough cash in their pocket to buy a night or two in a hostel but prefer to stay off rock bottom where they wouldn't even manage to eat. My thinking is that they've exhausted their friends by sleeping on couches one time too many, their parents and siblings are no longer a choice for them for any of a number of possibly sordid reasons, if they owned or rented they've lost their home, they have no resources available to pay for overnight lodging if they're not soon to be totally unable to buy anything at all. Those people are rough sleepers. A significant period for being able to pay for accommodation without running out of money? Weeks, I'd imagine. If I were down to my last week's rental money and then I'd stop eating, I think I'd keep the cash and sleep out so I could have longer to find work. Once your out then getting somewhere to live takes things like a deposit and money in advance, if you're homeless you have to build that cash up before you can get off the streets. I've never been quite that low so I'm not speaking from experience. I can see why people would be sleeping rough while building up a lump sum sufficient to get back under a roof though.



That's explanation, not definition. Rough sleepers are people who are sleeping outdoors because they have no home to sleep in and can't afford to lodge or rent or lease or own one for any significant period before they lose it through an inability to pay.
Got it. I've got a Honey-Do list for now but I'll be back.

spot;911770 wrote: I don't need an exact count sunny, I'm asking for a national total US government statistic which seems not to be tallied and made public by any of your government departments.
Why is it so deep in your craw that the states take care of themselves. Accept that our cultures are different. We don't need or even want the federal gov't in every detail.
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Post by chonsigirl »

National Survey of Homeless Assistance providers and Clients:

http://www.census.gov/prod/www/nshapc/NSHAPC4.html

If you are looking for something specific, you can always try:

http://usa.ipums.org/usa/

But you will have to know your parameters to set in. If you are trying to come up with numbers of homeless in total, you can extrapolate from the numbers given.
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Post by spot »

chonsigirl;911844 wrote: National Survey of Homeless Assistance providers and Clients:That one I've read and as the label says, "NSHAPC was not conducted to produce a count of homeless persons". It lists several thousand service providers and offers no way of telling the extent of their service use at all, much less on any given day in the past.

IPUMS is interesting in that it's predominantly a subset of a series of census returns. I've always felt that the US was rather careless when it comes to counting peripheral citizens. Here's an interesting question - is the most recent national census likely to have counted people sleeping rough or less likely to? Are most of them in it or most of them not? If I were asked to guess I'd say they were predominantly excluded from the US census count. I'll see if I can find out what the census people think.
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Post by chonsigirl »

I think the current Census would probably have counted them-I would not venture to say the numbers are public, but probably would be after a specific number of years. The census is usually pretty thorough in other areas, such as illegal immigrants and other categories like that. I know historians use IPUMS for a look at specific populations that are usually considered on the fringes of the mainstream, and the data is there.
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Post by spot »

chonsigirl;911880 wrote: I think the current Census would probably have counted them-I would not venture to say the numbers are public, but probably would be after a specific number of years.That's strange, because counts are meant to be issued by census analysers. Individual household self-report forms are embargoed a specific number of years but not the summary or category totals, surely. That's the point of the census, telling the condition of the population on a basis comparable from one period to another.

Homelessness, though, is an explicit exclusion:The U.S. Census Bureau does not produce counts of the population experiencing homelessness.

https://ask.census.gov/cgi-bin/askcensu ... =316What's more, the people identified as homeless (in shelters, in "identifiable outdoor locations", and I still say it's the minority of rough sleepers) aren't asked to self-report their personal details in the way everyone else does, they're merely counted by officials. Their counts are buried in with nurses in dormitories and residents of care homes - I thought I remembered that college students living on campus were in that same totals category as well but they're not mentioned on that page.

The US government is shockingly timid at the thought that the number of rough sleepers in the US should be somehow demonstrable.
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Post by sunny104 »

spot;911916 wrote: That's strange, because counts are meant to be issued by census analysers. Individual household self-report forms are embargoed a specific number of years but not the summary or category totals, surely. That's the point of the census, telling the condition of the population on a basis comparable from one period to another.

Homelessness, though, is an explicit exclusion:The U.S. Census Bureau does not produce counts of the population experiencing homelessness.

https://ask.census.gov/cgi-bin/askcensu ... =316What's more, the people identified as homeless (in shelters, in "identifiable outdoor locations", and I still say it's the minority of rough sleepers) aren't asked to self-report their personal details in the way everyone else does, they're merely counted by officials. Their counts are buried in with nurses in dormitories and residents of care homes - I thought I remembered that college students living on campus were in that same totals category as well but they're not mentioned on that page.

The US government is shockingly timid at the thought that the number of rough sleepers in the US should be somehow demonstrable.


like I said earlier I'm not sure how they could?

how do you suggest they get a count of all the homeless people in the country?
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Post by chonsigirl »

US Census numbers are not all released to the public, especially the longer census form used. As far as years it takes to release the full data, it is sometimes up to 75 years.

I would just say in my opinion, that they do take these numbers. I know they go into the illegal homes and count specific people, even if an unusually large number of people are in that dwelling.

If I remember in a week, I am going down to the Archives totting along my daughter's boyfriend. (he can carry my stuff :wah:-but I will let him ask how to pull up the numbers for a specific year and see if data is available so you know how to do it) As far as it being public knowledge, I do not know if they will release them to him/us. But I really think there is data available, but it would be from an earlier time period. (I'm pulling a diffferent population survey, so we can have two pulls from the records in a day. But it is a population survey from another source, wait until I return to see if there is another venue in that direction)
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Post by spot »

sunny104;911951 wrote: like I said earlier I'm not sure how they could?

how do you suggest they get a count of all the homeless people in the country?


The way we do it in England, as explained in some detail at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 4.htm_wqn9
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spot;911956 wrote: The way we do it in England, as explained in some detail at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 4.htm_wqn9


ok, that says they get estimates from doing street counts.

but it's still an estimate.

That still wouldn't give us an accurate number. There are so many places where these people can be. It's not like they are all out in the open.
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Post by spot »

sunny104;911969 wrote: ok, that says they get estimates from doing street counts.

but it's still an estimate.

That still wouldn't give us an accurate number. There are so many places where these people can be. It's not like they are all out in the open.


I'm looking for a government estimate, it's all I've ever asked for. The impossibility of getting an accurate total doesn't mean that making a best estimate isn't a good idea.
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