Lifestyle choice

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spot
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Post by spot »

I herd this on the radio a couple of weeks ago and I've been turning it over in my mind since. It's from a debate in the House of Commons on work and employment:"taxpayers recognise that while there should be a welfare state to act as a safety net, it must not be a lifestyle choice"

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-05-26/debates/16052642000001/TheEconomyAndWork?highlight=lifestyle%20choice#contribution-16052642000321 - go to the top of the web page and you can reed the entire debate.


Discerning members will deduce that the speaker, Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire), is a Conservative.

I have come to the conclusion that he's wrong, even after you remove his emotive terminology. I think there's a net benefit to society if paid employment were a lifestyle choice as opposed to a financial obligation.

I take particular exception to his mandatory "must". It was the "must" which caught my attention as I was listening to the radio report in the first place.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Saw this today on news, found a link:

Switzerland's voters reject basic income plan

"Swiss voters have overwhelmingly rejected a proposal to introduce a guaranteed basic income for all."

Switzerland's voters reject basic income plan - BBC News
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Post by spot »

There are other countries considering it, and I think it's relevant that the Swiss took the question as far as they did. If England gets to that stage too I'll be moderately pleased.

New Zealand and Finland spring to mind.
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Post by Bruv »

It is more a life style with a lack of choice.

If you are brought up on a sink estate in a formerly large industrial town, where your grandfather lost a job that had sustained your family for generations, your father has had several short term jobs but is currently unemployed although he has a trade.

And every job you have applied for has had queues of others, some with a bit of experience unlike yourself.

Despair sets in.
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Post by spot »

I've been wondering for some weeks whether to try a thread focused tight into Cleator Moor, which is a town in Cumbria, and from there down to a single estate and a single street. It fits perfectly with what you've written here.

It starts with the Irish Famine back in the 1840s, when many of the subsistence families who survived did so as economic migrants moving to wealthier countries. Cleator Moor had private iron ore mining which was expanding and by the mid-1850s the miners were predominantly Irish Catholics, so many that a mission church was set up. That's when a nucleus of working class labourers built a working class industry to the profit of the landowners.

By the 1930s two things had happened. A council estate had been built to provide housing, and the iron ore mine had closed not long after. The descendants of that working-class Catholic mining community have now been stuck on that estate for eighty years. There have been two major employers since, the Kangol factory which closed a decade ago and now employs maybe a dozen clerical staff and the industries down south at Barrow in Furness - Vickers Armaments and the Windscale/Sellafield nuclear complex. For those who don't get qualified, there's sod all. They've sat there and festered in that council estate for so long that nobody's left who can even remember why they existed in the first place. It's surrounded by barren hills which I doubt even sustain sheep now, it's a community in utter collapse.

Part of my family lived not far north from there on the coast around Whitehaven, which is why I googled a bit when the town hit the news last month. The estate has been news time and again over the years and on every occasion the stories are of catastrophe. Drug trafficking, endemic violence and pit-bulls, with no remediation at all as far as I can see. A community has been left to descend into feral criminality and then blamed for the state it's reached.

Places like Cleator Moor need mending, it wasn't broken by the people who have to live there, it was broken by capitalist economics.
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Post by Bruv »

Cleator Moor is as much a victim of a changing world.

The town probably only grew due to it being near a source of energy, and that brought other energy hungry industries and so the population boomed.

Maggie had a hand in it I suspect and then the rise of the far east as a manufacturing center with cheap labour and a willing population.

Lifestyle choice my derrière.
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Post by tude dog »

It is unfair to the recipient we taxpayers supply an income so they can sit on their butts all day watching TV. We rob them of their dignity and sense of selfesteem.

I am sure there are plenty of work for the money we give. I see a couple of jobs for loafers to come and do in my town. See how fast they find a real job.

I'll donate a shovel and a couple of rakes towards their reclamation of self worth.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1496723 wrote: It is unfair to the recipient we taxpayers supply an income so they can sit on their butts all day watching TV. We rob them of their dignity and sense of selfesteem.

I am sure there are plenty of work for the money we give. I see a couple of jobs for loafers to come and do in my town. See how fast they find a real job.

I'll donate a shovel and a couple of rakes towards their reclamation of self worth.



Who is the 'We' you speak of as in 'rob them of their self esteem' ?

If you saw a man stumble in the local mall, would you help him up ?
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1496744 wrote: Who is the 'We' you speak of as in 'rob them of their self esteem' ?

If you saw a man stumble in the local mall, would you help him up ?



I wrote

It is unfair to the recipient we taxpayers supply an income so they can sit on their butts all day watching TV. We rob them of their dignity and sense of selfesteem.



I am a former Boy Scout always looking out to do a good deed. Helping somebody who stumbles fits my definition of a good deed.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1496755 wrote: I am a former Boy Scout always looking out to do a good deed. Helping somebody who stumbles fits my definition of a good deed.



So helping a fellow through hard times/between jobs should come easy to you.

Now we have discovered you are a nice guy really, we need to find a way to make sure these unfortunate people have work again by supporting local industries so creating jobs for them.
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Post by Betty Boop »

It's not my lifestyle choice that's for sure.

How am I meant to earn enough money to pay £750 rent, £1,000 plus council tax all the utility bills, childcare and food shopping etc.

There is no help in this country to make it possible to get back to work if you find yourself a single parent and stuck in a private rent.

I can't see the government ever making a sensible decision to help someone like me so I'd best keep searching for a millionaire hey.
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tude dog
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1496757 wrote: So helping a fellow through hard times/between jobs should come easy to you.

Now we have discovered you are a nice guy really, we need to find a way to make sure these unfortunate people have work again by supporting local industries so creating jobs for them.



I am no proud to say I have been between jobs and collected unemployment. My job then was to find work. Many tempory jobs not paying much at all, but I did them.

Just a side note, the favorite was for one of those Psychic telephone lines where I tell people their future. Mrs. Dog taught me to read Tarot Cards so I could tell people their future now. Only job I had for minimum wage plus 15 cents for every hour I could keep somebody on the line. It was a lot of fun but many people with serious problems spending four dollars a minute for my wisdom. After two weeks I quit.

All I been saying if you want money from me, be ready to go out and do something for it.
With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds.

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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I used to read the Tarot, too.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1496762 wrote: I am no proud to say I have been between jobs and collected unemployment. My job then was to find work. Many tempory jobs not paying much at all, but I did them.



It happens to all of us, falling on hard times.

It is not the idea thats at fault, it's the economics where a whole community or area goes down hill fast isolating large populations when companies relocate, thank goodness our countries are rich enough to look after their own.
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Post by FourPart »

tude dog;1496755 wrote: I am a former Boy Scout always looking out to do a good deed. Helping somebody who stumbles fits my definition of a good deed.



What I see as the 2 types of 'homeless'. The one who sits there with a (probably borrowed) dog, asking for 'any spare change', and the one who goes selling Big Issue. The Big Issue vendor is the genuine homeless (or recently housed) person, who is, at least, trying to do something to earn a living. The other, who is probably not really homeless, (as well as probably not homeless at all) is content to sponge off of the good nature of others.

As the slogan of the Big Issue states, "Buying a Big Issue is a Hand Up, not a Hand Out". Buying a copy is doing the Good Deed. Giving 'spare change' only serves to further the problem.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1496771 wrote: Giving 'spare change' only serves to further the problem.
I was sat on the pavement outside Kings Cross a while back watching the world go by, and a very well-dressed woman gave me 50p. I was rather surprised, I didn't know I looked that far gone.
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Post by Bruv »

FourPart;1496771 wrote: What I see as the 2 types of 'homeless'. The one who sits there with a (probably borrowed) dog, asking for 'any spare change', and the one who goes selling Big Issue. The Big Issue vendor is the genuine homeless (or recently housed) person, who is, at least, trying to do something to earn a living. The other, who is probably not really homeless, (as well as probably not homeless at all) is content to sponge off of the good nature of others.

As the slogan of the Big Issue states, "Buying a Big Issue is a Hand Up, not a Hand Out". Buying a copy is doing the Good Deed. Giving 'spare change' only serves to further the problem.



You are behind the times FourPart, there are now 'Professional' Big Issue sellers who are making a fortune......or so I hear.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bruv;1496781 wrote: You are behind the times FourPart, there are now 'Professional' Big Issue sellers who are making a fortune......or so I hear.



Difficult to see how
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Post by Bruv »

Bryn Mawr;1496782 wrote: Difficult to see how



Southampton

London

London

Wolverhampton

Newquay

Not all Big Issue sellers, but a very good living from begging.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bruv;1496787 wrote: Southampton

London

London

Wolverhampton

Newquay

Not all Big Issue sellers, but a very good living from begging.



Big difference between begging and selling copies of the Big Issue.

People making lots of money from begging has been a problem from Sherlock Holmes' day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_with_the_Twisted_Lip) but to do so by legitimately selling copies of the Big Issue would be very difficult.
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Post by spot »

Sherlock Holmes. Relevant in some way but it's escaped me.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1496789 wrote: Sherlock Holmes. Relevant in some way but it's escaped me.



Then follow the link which fully explains the relevance.
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Post by spot »

Had I seen your observation I'd not have made mine. Cross-posting, it's called.
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Post by FourPart »

I looked at the link regarding Southampton, being my home town, but there was no mention in there whatsoever of Professional Big Issue Vendors. Yes, there are Professional Beggars - that's why I said that giving to them is merely furthering the problem. In order to be a Big Issue Vendor you have to be either homeless or newly housed and not in receipt of benefits. You pay £1.25 for the magazine & you sell them for £2.50. You are not permitted to change the price. You are not permitted to take any other 'monetary donations'. Big Issue Vendors are, to all intents & purposes Self Employed & working for their living. They are NOT Beggars. Beggars do nothing but sit & expect you to give them money & the Professional Beggars know full well that the more pitiful they can make themselves look (namely with some mangy mutt), the more money they can make - frequently in the region of £25 / hour. Just consider it - even with just one passer by dropping them a couple of quid every 10 min that, alone is £10 - £12 - more than I get in my job. The problem is that these Professional Beggars end up getting all the Homeless tarred with the same brush, when the real homeless tend to remain out of sight, where it's quiet & sheltered.
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Post by Bruv »

Ok I am chided.
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Post by magentaflame »

Hmmm... went to Melbourne the other week.

When i was a child the only homeless i saw were very old men.

When i see people youngee than myself my heart breaks.

Question..... do dole or pensioner recepients pay tax overeseas? We have an opt in policy. So when people say stuff like "we taxpayers".... i can include myself amongst that fold .
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Post by spot »

I seem to remember for UK tax, if the taxpayer's non-resident but lives in a qualifying country, there is an arrangement to avoid having to pay tax twice on the same income. And I think the taxpayer can choose to pay the lower of the two. Whether that's restricted to UK-sourced income or to UK citizens I'm not sure, I've never been an expatriate earner or a remittance man. It's what happens to residents of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man and possibly why they're called Tax Havens.
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Post by magentaflame »

Sorry, didnt explain tha very well. I meant does anyone pay tax back to the government whilst on the dole?
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Post by FourPart »

magentaflame;1497157 wrote: Hmmm... went to Melbourne the other week.

When i was a child the only homeless i saw were very old men.

When i see people youngee than myself my heart breaks.

Question..... do dole or pensioner recepients pay tax overeseas? We have an opt in policy. So when people say stuff like "we taxpayers".... i can include myself amongst that fold .



When you were a child, men in their 30s would have seemed 'very old men'.
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Post by magentaflame »

No, they were old men. They werent my mothers' age. Mainly old vets (ww2 era).

This lifestyle choice malachy was brought up a few years ago. So welfare agencies challenged politicians to live on welfare for one month. All went very quiet after that. Seems no politician could do it.
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Post by Snowfire »

Yes pensioners pay tax in the UK and "dole" money, as with any benefit, is seen as income and will be liable for tax if the annual amount brings you into the appropriate tax bracket.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1497160 wrote: I seem to remember for UK tax, if the taxpayer's non-resident but lives in a qualifying country, there is an arrangement to avoid having to pay tax twice on the same income. And I think the taxpayer can choose to pay the lower of the two. Whether that's restricted to UK-sourced income or to UK citizens I'm not sure, I've never been an expatriate earner or a remittance man. It's what happens to residents of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man and possibly why they're called Tax Havens.



I don't think you can choose - certainly with Greece the reciprocal agreement is that you pay tax to the country you spend the most time in.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

magentaflame;1497191 wrote: Sorry, didnt explain tha very well. I meant does anyone pay tax back to the government whilst on the dole?



If you're on the dole you should not be in a position to pay tax but, if for example, you have investments and the income from those investments takes you over the tax threshold then yes, you would pay tax.
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Post by Bruv »

Tax is based on annual earnings, any benefits or dole are used as 'income', added to any future income in that tax year.

So if you are on the dole for a whole year, not taxable, but if you are on the dole for 6 months then get a decent job, the dole is added on to previous dole benefits.
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Post by magentaflame »

Thats interesting....im under the threshold and pay tax by choice. If nothing else its a good savings loop....if i dnt work in that financial year i get it all back at tax time.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

magentaflame;1497486 wrote: Thats interesting....im under the threshold and pay tax by choice. If nothing else its a good savings loop....if i dnt work in that financial year i get it all back at tax time.



Hmmm - lending the government money at zero interest?

There must be better ways of saving than that :wah:
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Post by Bruv »

magentaflame;1497486 wrote: Thats interesting....im under the threshold and pay tax by choice. If nothing else its a good savings loop....if i dnt work in that financial year i get it all back at tax time.



How can you pay by choice ?
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Post by spot »

Perhaps there's a tick box on the paying agency's paperwork asking whether you want tax deducting at source. I've seen something like that.
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Post by spot »

I have a coincidence. Since starting this thread I bought a thermometer. It's arrived, manufactured by "Brannan". Brannan Thermometers & Instrumentation is located in Cleator Moor.
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Post by minks »

lol spot that is an interesting coincidence.

here in the land of government greediness Canada, you go on the dole you are still taxed.

Any bloody kind of money given to you is a bloody taxable income.

Currently we pay over 30% taxes on our income here.

We are patiently (tongue in cheek) awaiting a brand shiney new "carbon tax"

how does it work that we are in dire economic shambles and the idiots on Parliament hill think we have more money for more taxes.

ok rant over
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Post by magentaflame »

They introduced a carbon tax here........ they said it would be good for everyone. Next minute the price of petrol, gas, electricity etc all rose . Si then they had to begin compesating liw income earners because their bills suddenly became 120% to300% more expensive. So then they got rid of it. Oh woe is us because the greenhouse emmissions will still be high.

The only thing that remained high were our energy bills.

Its so high that there were laws put in place to protect the elderly from having their electricity turned off. Rebates given to those on low incomes .
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Post by FourPart »

magentaflame;1502001 wrote: They introduced a carbon tax here........ they said it would be good for everyone. Next minute the price of petrol, gas, electricity etc all rose . Si then they had to begin compesating liw income earners because their bills suddenly became 120% to300% more expensive. So then they got rid of it. Oh woe is us because the greenhouse emmissions will still be high.

The only thing that remained high were our energy bills.

Its so high that there were laws put in place to protect the elderly from having their electricity turned off. Rebates given to those on low incomes .



Speaking from the Customer Services aspect of an Energy Provider, I can say that the whole Warm Home Discount (of which I presume you speak) is a total farce of Governmental mis-management. They have ruled that every Energy Provider has to allocate a certain quota of £140 grants to people who fall within certain base criteria, which they specify. So far, so good. However, they then allow each Energy Provider to add their own sub-categories of criteria at the discretion of the providers. They also allow the providers to set their own deadlines for applications to start & finish. They also allow each provider to determine their own ways in which the scheme is publicised, and how applications are made. As a result of this hotch potch the general public don't understand why our allocations closed in September (even though we had received more than our alloted quota of applications by over 50%), when all applications had to be made online. These were snapped up within about 6 weeks. Needless to say, we are still constantly receiving calls from people demanding their £140, and threatening to change suppliers unless they get it - regardless of the fact that they probably wouldn't get it with another provider either. Needless to say, it's all MY fault, because I'm the one on the end of the line.

If the Government had simply set firm hard & fast criteria that everyone had to stick to, with precise timescales for applications, and even methods for applications to be processed, it would make it easier for everyone concerned.

Then there was the Government Energy Rebate Scheme - a £12 award across the board for everyone. This was in place for only 2 years (2014 & 2015). It was only ever intended for those 2 years & not an ongoing thing. However, we are still getting calls coming in demanding this year's rebates, claiming that is their RIGHT, and that we are cheating them by refusing them their £12. Then, of course, follows the usual, "Well, I'm going to change my supplier then" - which is quite comical really, as other suppliers would take more than twice that amount off them in Standing Charges alone (we don't have any Standing Charges).

I really hate it when I see those who are really in need miss out on their payments, but when you get those whose sole motive for switching in the first place was to get the payment, and then attempt to blackmail us into giving it to them anyway by threatening to leave I so have to bite my tongue.
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