Justice for Harambe

[spot]

It's a judgement call. It reflects my values. I think we should recognize that we owe more, collectively, to the remnants of the Gorilla species than we do to individual humans regardless of who they are - child or adult, wealthy American Exceptionalist or displaced refugee. It's just a matter of applying principled thinking instead of wading through a self-imposed histrionic emotional mire.

Obviously director Thane Maynard applied your value system rather than mine. I think he was wrong. I think he was professionally wrong, too. I think he should have had a policy in place which at the very least attempted the survival of the gorilla, which is what those previous instances successfully demonstrated, and he clearly didn't.

What I find disgusting is that you-all and I have a government and a military which declares the "collateral" death of civilian bystanders to be a legal consequence of military and governmental choices and actions, instead of a crime subject to unbiased intensive investigation and answerable to a court with legal consequences. There's clearly not much value attached to the life of every pre-school child. The excuse, apparently, is "we didn't intend it" or "we didn't mean to", and I don't find that an adequate excuse. I also find this issue of collateral death very relevant when discussing the death of Harambe. At the very least we might agree this question is all to do with values.

[Bruv]

spot;1500234 wrote: I think we should recognize that we owe more, collectively, to the remnants of the Gorilla species than we do to individual humans regardless of who they are - child or adult, wealthy American Exceptionalist or displaced refugee.


What......exactly....do I owe Harambe ?

[spot]

Bruv;1500235 wrote: What......exactly....do I owe Harambe ?


Collectively - you'll note I did write "collectively", and that I said the debt was to a species not an individual - we owe a misappropriated ecological niche which had belonged to his species and its forebears for the last 500 million years and was stolen primarily by animal domestication, industrial fertilizers and antibiotics. The survival of wildlife is a debt we owe in exchange for our self-centred progress.

[Bruv]

spot;1500237 wrote: Collectively - you'll note I did write "collectively", and that I said the debt was to a species not an individual - we owe a misappropriated ecological niche which had belonged to his species and its forebears for the last 500 million years and was stolen primarily by animal domestication, industrial fertilizers and antibiotics. The survival of wildlife is a debt we owe in exchange for our self-centred progress.


I am part of that 'collective'

It seems you personally cannot separate the individual gorilla Harambe, that was possibly endangering the life of an infant (a judgment call) , from the historical decline of the species.

I trust you are not using any products that contain palm oil.

[spot]

Bruv;1500239 wrote: It seems you personally cannot separate the individual gorilla Harambe, that was possibly endangering the life of an infant (a judgment call) , from the historical decline of the species. Indeed I can't. I also think we should all value the life of Harambe - that one, specific, individual gorilla - at more than the life of the child involved, or any child, or any other human life.

I don't actually think I value the life of that child, or any child, or any human, at less than the valuation assigned by other people here. I just think they're mistaken in valuing the life of Harambe as low as they quite evidently do.

[Bruv]

Well.......................that has cleared that up.

Even your own grandchild ?

And the Palm oil products ?

[spot]

Even anyone. Even me. The debt is of a different quality to any personal consideration.

As for the palm oil, I've been a part of the human impact on wildlife, I've not claimed otherwise. The wildlife slaughter and species extinction by humans dates back the best part of 50,000 years, and that's me being very conservative with numbers.

[Bruv]

spot;1500243 wrote: Even anyone. Even me. The debt is of a different quality to any personal consideration.

As for the palm oil, I've been a part of the human impact on wildlife, I've not claimed otherwise. The wildlife slaughter and species extinction by humans dates back the best part of 50,000 years, and that's me being very conservative with numbers.


And that poor innocent child gets to pay the price ?

[AnneBoleyn]

spot;1500240 wrote: Indeed I can't. I also think we should all value the life of Harambe - that one, specific, individual gorilla - at more than the life of the child involved, or any child, or any other human life.

I don't actually think I value the life of that child, or any child, or any human, at less than the valuation assigned by other people here. I just think they're mistaken in valuing the life of Harambe as low as they quite evidently do.


You understand that if Harambe was alive & knew sign language, he'd probably be laughing his head off at your assessment? Just speculating. I really do, btw, value the apes, the elephants, etc.

You must have heard of this horrible, devil human child:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... nd-killed/

Harambe is worth more than her, to me, any day of any week of any year. I guess I'm as nutty as you.

This revolting young woman must be her hero, an older story, pardon me:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/c ... -1.1850383

Harambe is worth more than her, to me, any day of any week of any year. I guess I'm as nutty as you.

Donald Trump's two sons trophy hunt too. Must have papa's blessing as he pays for everything. I value Harambe more than them as well.

Does this make me a misanthrope? Or you?

eta--you said: "I don't actually think I value the life of that child, or any child, or any human, at less than the valuation ...... (of Harambe).

I'm worse than you, I think, or more misanthropic.

[spot]

AnneBoleyn;1500264 wrote: You understand that if Harambe was alive & knew sign language, he'd probably be laughing his head off at your assessment?


Harambe would not, at that point, be a gorilla.

I have a great deal of trouble trying to sift reality out of the welter of simile, metaphor and sheer unadulterated codswallop people drift into these attempts at discussion.



AnneBoleyn;1500264 wrote: eta--you said: "I don't actually think I value the life of that child, or any child, or any human, at less than the valuation ...... (of Harambe).


No, you missed my point. I said "at less than the valuation assigned by other people here". I have no hesitation valuing Harambe more highly, but I don't think I devalue people (or children) at all by doing so.

[spot]

Bruv;1500248 wrote: And that poor innocent child gets to pay the price ?


Would you describe a child killed in a car crash as "paying the price" of inadequate lane widths on the A27 which additional Department of Transport finance could have widened eight years ago? Someone in the DoT deliberately decided the child's life was worth less than the £5m investment per projected life saved by the local authority's widening proposal, which he consequently refused to endorse.

They're both "poor innocent children", I take it?

I don't see that the one death differs in the slightest from the other. Both pay the price because both are doing the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time. Increasing the valuation placed on these children might have saved the road victim but I doubt it would change my verdict as far as Harambe's concerned. We might agree there's no difference in either child's degree of innocence. If you want to balance them exactly, let's say the hypothetical road victim was having a screaming tantrum in the car and distracting the driver.

[spot]

Harambe the gorilla: Cincinnati Zoo deletes Twitter account - BBC News

Refusing to engage in the discussion is scarcely the act of someone who thinks his position is justifiable.

[Bruv]

spot;1500268 wrote: Would you describe a child killed in a car crash as "paying the price" of inadequate lane widths on the A27 which additional Department of Transport finance could have widened eight years ago?


Hardly the same, only similar in your mind.

The first problem was down to hundreds of thousands of years of decisions by hundreds of thousands of individuals.

The A27 accident was a budgetary decision by a committee.

The committee could be to blame for Harambe and the child's deaths in your convoluted mind as it happens.......so the answer is yes.

[spot]

All the A27 committee is responsible for is the price they set on human life. My point is that a valuation was performed. Throw more money, diminishing returns, cut-off point, words like that. Human lives are valued. Harambe's wasn't considered as valuable. It should have been.

[Bruv]

spot;1500281 wrote: All the A27 committee is responsible for is the price they set on human life. My point is that a valuation was performed. Throw more money, diminishing returns, cut-off point, words like that. Human lives are valued. Harambe's wasn't considered as valuable. It should have been.


I should have stepped out of this when I saw the way it was going.

The bloody American space agency threw bleedin millions at the safety of their astronauts........accidents happened.

People are........human.

[spot]

I note a gorilla found an unlocked door at Regent's Park Zoo and went through to the keeper's preparation room and had a chat with his keeper. Nobody was shot.Kumbuka briefly explored the zookeeper area next door to his den, where he opened and drank five litres of undiluted blackcurrant squash.

“Kumbuka was immediately contained in the non-public area by quick-thinking zookeepers responding to the alarm, where he was tranquilised and moved back into his den.”If I ever drink five litres of undiluted blackcurrant squash I strongly recommend that I be immediately contained in a non-public area too, because I have a pretty good idea what might happen next.

[magentaflame]

spot;1502003 wrote: I note a gorilla found an unlocked door at Regent's Park Zoo and went through to the keeper's preparation room and had a chat with his keeper. Nobody was shot.Kumbuka briefly explored the zookeeper area next door to his den, where he opened and drank five litres of undiluted blackcurrant squash.

“Kumbuka was immediately contained in the non-public area by quick-thinking zookeepers responding to the alarm, where he was tranquilised and moved back into his den.”If I ever drink five litres of undiluted blackcurrant squash I strongly recommend that I be immediately contained in a non-public area too, because I have a pretty good idea what might happen next.


He wasnt shot because keepers are a dime a dozen and as in your words "he stopped to chat"......... manners spot, manners will get you everywhere in life.

And if you drank blackcurrent squash they wouldnt have to shoot you........ theyd already have you contained in a nearby toilet.

[spot]

Harambe Day is Monday the 29th, if anyone would like to reflect on the events of last year. I think we ought. I was disappointed at the relative valuation placed on Harambe in this thread at the time. We might take another shot at it, if you'll excuse the expression given the context.

I'd quite like to discuss the date assigned to the start of the Anthropocene which has been in the news extensively over the last year. I very much disagree with the notion that it's maybe now or near enough. I said as much in this thread. I think the question is whether the acts of Homo Sapiens appears in the geological record as a dividing line between epochs 50,000 years ago, or 40,000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago. I don't see the slightest excuse for making it more recent than that. I think the dividing line into the Anthropocene will be undeniably dated, as more evidence emerges, at the start of the Late Pleistocene extinction event, a worldwide permanent marker in the fossil record outside of Africa of man's subjugation of the biosphere.

Meanwhile, as Harambe's death indicates, we're nowhere near learning any sort of lesson from what we've already done. We still feel no obligation to rescue what can still be saved, for which I blame Thane Maynard personally and the posters on ForumGarden as accessories.

[tude dog]

spot;1509104 wrote: Harambe Day is Monday the 29th,


Why nobody mourns for the most famous of all monkeys, King Kong?

KING KONG MURDERED!

[Wandrin]

spot;1509104 wrote: Harambe Day is Monday the 29th, if anyone would like to reflect on the events of last year. I think we ought. I was disappointed at the relative valuation placed on Harambe in this thread at the time. We might take another shot at it, if you'll excuse the expression given the context.

I'd quite like to discuss the date assigned to the start of the Anthropocene which has very much been in the news over the last year. I very much disagree with the notion that it's maybe now or near enough. I said as much in this thread. I think the question is whether the acts of Homo Sapiens appears in the geological record as a dividing line between epochs 50,000 years ago, or 40,000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago. I don't see the slightest excuse for making it more recent than that.

Meanwhile, as Harambe's death indicates, we're nowhere near learning any sort of lesson from what we've already done. We still feel no obligation to rescue what can still be saved, for which I blame Thane Maynard personally and the posters on ForumGarden as accessories.


No one has ever called me an accessory before.

[spot]

tude dog;1509106 wrote: Why nobody mourns for the most famous of all monkeys, King Kong?Because he was fictional?

I'm not sure you can distinguish, the way you've posted over the years here.

The one is a story, the other is a diminishing species on the man-made edge of extinction.

As usual you're mocking reality. Perhaps you regard yourself as comical.

For the record gorillas are apes. All apes are primates. No monkey is a primate. Gorillas are not monkeys. I'm sure you're aware of that and the deliberate confusion was part of the act.

[compopete]

Some interesting points here, though I tend to agree with the point earlier of putting the animal first. It's bad enough 'generally' that animals are kept in zoos for human entertainment: to kill one because of unwanted human encroachment merely compounds the problem and adds to the animals demise. If dangerous areas were clearly marked (however 'common sense' and unnecessary they may seem), that would at least help, as people unfortunately need to be reminded of common sense these days. I do think that the parents are also accountable and must take some responsibility though.

[spot]

I would like this thread to note the death of Ozzie, a lowland gorilla, at a zoo in Atlanta.

Ozzie, the world’s oldest male gorilla, dies aged 61

A ‘devastating loss’ to the Atlanta zoo, the gorilla’s cause of death has yet to be determined by officials

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... rilla-dies

For some reason, the article fails to mention that Ozzie became infected with Covid-19 four months ago after exposure to one of his jailers.

I think this detail should have been recorded in the article. Covid deaths of the elderly in nursing homes throughout America and the UK were well publicized. Practically all of those deaths resulted from contact with care staff who brought the infection in, due to unprofessionally inadequate isolation protocols.

As I observed earlier in this thread, gorillas die from being undervalued, both in the wild and in captivity.