Jesus (PUM) in Islam

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friend
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

Post by friend »

Salaam for all

Many people may be surprised that Muslims love Mary, the mother of Jesus. In the Qur'aan, no woman is given more attention than Mary. Mary receives the most attention of any woman mentioned in the Quran even though all the Prophets with the exception of Adam had mothers. Of the Quran's 114 chapters, she is among the eight people who have a chapter named after them. The nineteenth chapter of the Quran is named after her, Mariam. Mariam means Mary in Arabic. The third chapter in the Quran is named after her father, Imran. Chapters Mariam and Imran are among the most beautiful chapters in the Quran.

Mary (peace be upon her) is the only woman specifically named in the Quran. the daughter of Imran and Asia, the wife of Pharaoh." (Bukhari 4.643). Indeed, both Mary and Pharoah's wife are an example (Quran 66:11-12). The Virgin Mary plays a very significant role in Islam. She is an example and a sign for all people.

In the Quran, Mary's story begins while she is still in her mother's womb. The mother of Mary, said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate into Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service: So accept this of me: For Thou hearest and knowest all things." (Quran 3:35).

She wanted the baby in her womb to serve only the Creator. When Mary was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!" (Quran 3:36). She had expected her baby to be a male child who would grow up to be a scholar or religious leader. However, God had a better plan. God is the best of planners. Quran 3:36 continues "…and God knew best what she brought forth- 'And no wise is the male like the female. I have named her Mariam, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from Satan, the Rejected.'" Mariam literally means "maidservant of God."

In Quran 3:37, God states that He accepted Mary as her mother had asked. He made Mary grow in purity and beauty. She was assigned to the care of a priest named Zacharias. This is interesting considering few women were given this opportunity.

"Every time that he entered (her) chamber to see her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: 'O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?' She said: 'From God. for God provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure.'" (Quran 3:37).

Upon hearing Mary's answer, "There did Zakariya pray to his Lord, saying: 'O my Lord! Grant unto me from Thee a progeny that is pure: for Thou art He that heareth prayer!'" (Quran 3:38).

Although his wife was barren and he was very old, God blesses Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth with John. John is known as "John the Baptist" in the Bible. Zacharias was skeptical after the angels announced John's birth. The response to his skepticism was "Doth God accomplish what He willeth" (Quran 3:40). John would become a noble and chaste Prophet as the angels had stated .

The Quran discusses Mary's miraculous conception as well. "Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her Our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects." (Quran 19:16-17). After seeing the angel, she said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God." (Quran 19:18).

The angel Gabriel responded: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a pure son." (Quran 19:19). Her next response is expected. She asked: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (Quran 19:20). The Angel Gabriel said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith, 'That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us.' It is a matter (so) decreed." (Quran 19:21). Mary then becomes pregnant.

'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave. And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I bring the dead into life, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe. (I have come to you) to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you. I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (Quran 3:48-51).

"When Jesus found unbelief on their (the disciples) part he said: 'Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.'" (Quran 3:52).

After conceiving Jesus, Mary went away with the baby to a distant place (Quran 19:22). "And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She cried (in her anguish): 'Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten!'" (Quran 19:23). "But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): 'Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into no talk with any human being.'" (Quran 19:24-26).

Joseph, the magi, and manger are not mentioned in the Quran. God was Mary's only Provider. Muslims do not accept the virgin birth of Jesus as evidence of Jesus' divinity. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was." (Quran 3:59). Adam's creation was even more miraculous because he was born without father and mother. When she brings the baby to her people, they said: "O Mary! truly a strange thing has thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (Quran 19:27-8). Mary then points to the baby. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (Quran 19:29). Then a miracle occurs that is not mentioned in the Bible. In defense of his mother, Jesus said: "I am indeed a servant of God. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He hath made me) kind to my mother, and not overbearing or unblest; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:30-33).

The virgin birth of Jesus was a sign. "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." (Quran 21:91). All previous Prophets confirmed the oneness of God, Tawheed.

Whereas the Holy Trinity is the fundamental concept of God in Christianity, Tawheed is the fundamental concept of God in Islam. God exists independent of religion. Muslims do not believe in the concept of Holy Trinity .

On the Day of Judgment, when Jesus is asked if he had called people to worship him and his mother as two gods, Jesus will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." (Quran 5:116).

People should not worship any of God's creation, including Jesus and Mary. We must not assign any of God's creation His divine attributes and characteristics. "Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations. O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.'" (Quran 3:42)

Thanks to all
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance". Holy Qur'an 16:125
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

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friend
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

Post by friend »

capt_buzzard wrote: www.christinagallagher.org Irish


Salaam

what do you mean ?

what do you want us to know?

Please explain................................ :confused:
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance". Holy Qur'an 16:125
koan
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

Post by koan »

Thank you for the well told story. I wondered how Islam felt about Jesus. If Mary is the only woman featured in the Koran what roles if any do women hold throughout the rest of the Koran. I thought the prophet's wife was intregal in his process of receiving the Koran in the cave. Can you not think of any other important roles women might have played in the stories?

Not sure how the captain's link is related either but do find it funny how modern "prophets" scramble after a disaster to show how they had already predicted it.
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How can Allah so Loving & Merciful allow terrorists teach and train boyss and girls as young as 9 years of age to kill,bomb men,women and children. And you call ISLAM, a loving and peaceful religion?
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

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capt_buzzard wrote: How can Allah so Loving & Merciful allow terrorists teach and train boyss and girls as young as 9 years of age to kill,bomb men,women and children. And you call ISLAM, a loving and peaceful religion?


You have an avatar from The Lord of the Rings. If you have seen the film you might recall the scene where the humans were defending against the armies of Mordor. Every young boy was given a sword and any armor that would fit them. Why? Because they were so badly outnumbered by their attackers. Was this a horrible thing in the film? Yes, horrible that they had to send their children to war...but considered necessary. What say you now?
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

Post by Paula »

friend wrote: Salaam

what do you mean ?

what do you want us to know?

Please explain................................ :confused:


Without Mary & God, there would be no religion? I was taught of them and thats who they are for me? Very interesting, but in biblical times this was common langauge? am i on the right track?
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
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ISLAM & Roman Catholism are the two greatest Evils in the world
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Post by Paula »

Islam Online.net. It's all there. I would never want to be a woman in Iraq * Oh My God. They can have it. I hope God is helping them there they believe in him so much, have they blamed him for the war, i wonder?
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Post by kensloft »

friend wrote: Salaam for all

1- "When Jesus found unbelief on their (the disciples) part he said: 'Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.'" (Quran 3:52).

2- After conceiving Jesus, Mary went away with the baby to a distant place (Quran 19:22). "And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She cried (in her anguish):

3- Joseph, the magi, and manger are not mentioned in the Quran. God was Mary's only Provider. Muslims do not accept the virgin birth of Jesus as evidence of Jesus' divinity. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be.' And he was." (Quran 3:59). Adam's creation was even more miraculous because he was born without father and mother. When she brings the baby to her people, they said: "O Mary! truly a strange thing has thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" (Quran 19:27-8). Mary then points to the baby. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" (Quran 19:29). Then a miracle occurs that is not mentioned in the Bible. In defense of his mother, Jesus said: "I am indeed a servant of God. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He hath made me) kind to my mother, and not overbearing or unblest; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!" (Quran 19:30-33).



4- Whereas the Holy Trinity is the fundamental concept of God in Christianity, Tawheed is the fundamental concept of God in Islam. God exists independent of religion. Muslims do not believe in the concept of Holy Trinity .

5-On the Day of Judgment, when Jesus is asked if he had called people to worship him and his mother as two gods, Jesus will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." (Quran 5:116).

6- People should not worship any of God's creation, including Jesus and Mary. We must not assign any of God's creation His divine attributes and characteristics. "Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee - chosen thee above the women of all nations. O Mary! worship thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down.'" (Quran 3:42)

Thanks to all


This is where we get into historical inaccuracies. It is these historical inaccuracies that makes the Muslim and the Christian faiths part ways.

1- The Muslims are not the only ones that deny Mary's role in the earth's religious history. The Anglicans have also set her a notch down from where many believe she should be. The first inaccuracy that is shown is when Jesus is supposed to have used the term Muslims. It is found nowhere else in any of the testaments and is therefore disregarded as being factual. Anything and everything from that point on is looked upon by the Christian faith as being totally false. Muslims did not come into existence for another 600 years.

2- This episode totally discounts the Bethlehem birth of Christ. It, once again, is an historical anomaly. It does not gibe with either the Christian texts nor the secular texts of history for that time.

3- Once again the historical facts do not describe the reality that are those times. The Christian texts do not state that Jesus spoke as a babe to the women of Mary's acquaintance. It is this fantasy that destroys any bond that could occur between the Christians and the Muslims. It is a way of removing Christ from his position to be replaced by a prophet's concept of Who God is. To change the text of Holy Books to give rise to the concepts propounded by the Christian texts are against God's Law. You do not change the words to benefit your ideals.

For years there was a concept that man was only 6 thousand years old. It was proven to all, according to those in the churches that agreed with this proposition, but it is entirely false. You can't pick, choose or create your version of how things are. The Books of God are meant to be immutable.

4- In the Trinity of the Christian beliefs they are separate entities that are of the same. When God begat Jesus they looked upon Each Other and Breathed the Holy Spirit into existence because of their beauty. To deny the Holy Spirit is to deny the existence of the devil. The Bible of the New Testament states that Christ is the Son of God. It is a title that is given to no other of this earth. Mohammed's interpretation of the God is entirely his own and is felt by many to be nothing more than a ploy to remove the Son of God and replace Him as an equal prophet of God. It defies what is written.

5- The Roman Catholic Church does not deify the virgin Mary as being God. She is the Mother of God that was brought to earth through the Word of God. She is the Mother of God in terms of Jesus being the Son of God. To state that she is considered a God is to spread lies and falsehoods about anothers' beliefs. It may fortify your ideals but it can't be proven by your words alone. The barbaric tendencies of crime and punishment that are your concept are against the Words of Jesus.

Where are the miracles of Mohammed as there are with Jesus? Where is Mohammed bringing the dead back to life? Where are the miracles that gave Christ His right to claim to be the Son of God? Where is Jesus body? The Japanese claim that He lived amongst them but there is no proof that He did. There is only folkloric conjecture as to what had transpired on this earth in those days.

Jesus did not say that He was a prophet. He said that He was the answer to the prophecies.

6- Mary has never spoken of herself as being God. The Koran has been interpreted to believe that Christians do, but they don't. It is a means that is used as a wedge between the Children of God's earth.

Furthermore, it is conceived by other Churches that the multiple marriages that the Muslims accord themselves is directly in relation to the deaths in the Wars that gave predominance to the Muslim religion in the regions of Araby and Israel. Because of the multitude of deaths in the various battles the population of the men declined dramatically. To leave so many women without men, although Christ said that marriage should not be put asunder by man, meant that a change had to occur to keep the people that follow Mohammed following his ways. Up to four wives by a man could only happen where there were enough women to be able to take up the call.

In Peace
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Do the Mormans (Church of Jesus Christ & Latter Day Saints) still have one or three wives in tow?:p
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Post by kensloft »

capt_buzzard wrote: Do the Mormans (Church of Jesus Christ & Latter Day Saints) still have one or three wives in tow?:p
Only if the guys asking aren't federal agents.
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The Messiah Jesus Is Glorified In The Qur'an More Than Any Other Prophet. He Is Mentioned In 15 Chapters. One Of The More Common Titles For The Messiah Jesus Is '' Son Of Mary ''. He Is Mentioned 15 Times As Isa Ibn Maryam ( Jesus , Son Of Mary ) ; 2 ; 87 , 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 157 , 4 ; 171 , 5 ; 49 , 5 ; 81 , 5 ; 113 , 5 ; 115 , 5 ; 117 , 5 ; 119 , 19 ; 34 , 33 ; 7 , 57 ; 27 , 61 ; 6 ,

Fourteen times as the Son of Mary , Ibn Maryam ) alone or with some other title; 5 ; 19 ( twice ), 49 ; 78 , 113 , 115 , 117 , 119 , 9 ; 31 , 19 ; 34 , 23 ; 50 , 43 ; 57 , 57 ; 27 , 61 ; 6 .

Once as the sign of the hour -- Alamus Saa'ati ) ; 43 ; 61

Eleven times as Rasuwl , 2 ; 87 , 3 ; 49 , 4 ; 157 , 5 ; 78 , 57 ; 27 , 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 52 - 53 , 4 ; 171 , 5 ; 114 , 61 ; 6 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned on the Qur'an nine times named in conjuction with other Prophets ; 2; 136 , 3 ; 84 , 4 ; 163 , 5 ; 81 , 33 ; 7 , 42 ; 13 , 57 ; 26 - 27 , 6 ; 85 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as Isa in the Qur'an 10 times; 2 ; 136 , 3 ; 51 , 3 ; 54 , 3 ; 59 , 3 ; 84 , 4 ; 163 , 6 ; 85 , 42 ; 13 , 19 ; 34 , 43 ; 63 ,

The Messiah Jesus occurs in connection with Ar Ruhu -- as often as five times in the Qur'an. 2 ; 87 , 2 ; 253 , 5 ; 110 , 4 ; 171 , 21 ; 91 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a witness Shahidan - in the Qur'an twice -- 4 ; 159 , 5 ; 120 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as blessed Mubaarakan --- in the Qur'an once ; 19 ; 31 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as illustrious Wajihan --- in the Qur'an once 3 ; 45

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as - Ayat - -- in the Qur'an four times; 3 ; 48 , 19 ; 21 , 21 ; 91 , 23 ; 50 ..

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as - mercy - Rahmah -- in the Qur'an once ; 19 ; 21 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as - a statement of the truth - Qawlal -- Haqqi ) ; 19 ; 34 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as of those near ( to Allah ) , Min Al Muqarrabiyna ) once in the Qur'an; 3 ; 45 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as of the righteous - Min As Salihiyna ) once in the Qur'an; 3 ; 45 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as an example -- Mathal ) in the Qur'an twice ; 43 ; 57 , 43 ; 59 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a simulator -- Mathalan -- in the Qur'an once 3 ; 59 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as Al Masih -- the Messiah ) 11 times in the once ; 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 157 , 4 ; 171 , 4 ; 172 , 5 ; 19 ( twice ) 5 ; 75 ( twice ) 5 ; 78 , 9 ; 30 , 9 ; 31 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as slave -- Abd --- three times in the Qur'an . 4 ; 172 , 19 ; 30 , 43 ; 59 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned once as a prophet -- Nabian ); 19 ; 30

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a word --- Kalima -- in the Qur'an twice ; 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 171 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as be and he became --- Kuwn Fayakuwn ) in the Qur'an once 3 ; 59

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as her son --- Ibnaha in the Qur'an once . 21 ; 91 . The Prophet Muhammad Is Mentioned Four Times 48 ; 29 ; 3 ; 144 ; 33 ; 40 ; 47 ; 2
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Post by spot »

Thank you Daniyal.

The Koran says that these stories of the infant Jesus and his mother don't come from the New Testament, that the stories in the New Testament are inaccurate versions of what was known already to the Muslims and then placed into the Koran. The two versions of the stories, those in the Koran and those in the New Testament, are very different but obviously based on a common origin.
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Post by Kindle »

It is very interesting to read the stories from the various religions and see how much there is in common.

I believe there is but one God and that He is worshiped under different names.




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Post by Daniyal »

Kindle;1089318 wrote: It is very interesting to read the stories from the various religions and see how much there is in common.

I believe there is but one God and that He is worshiped under different names.


Wrong Again See What Happen When You Believe !

The name ANU means '' He Who Is Above '' and '' The Heavenly One '' . Other name for ANU are AN which mean '' Heavenly One '' . and ANA which mean '' I Am '' . ANU is the ruler of all the ANUNNAQI and ELOHEEM . He is what you would call '' The Great Deity , The Warrior , The Noble One , And The Decision Maker '' . ANU is The Most High , ELYOWN ELYOWN EL .

ANUNNAQI / ELOHEEM

Genesis R.T. 1;1-12 , 14 , 16 - 18 , 20 -22 , 24 -28 , 31 ; 2;2 ; 3;1, 5,6,9 ; 4;25 ; 5 ; 1 , 22; 6;2; 7;16 ; 8;1 ; 9 ;1 ; 20;3 ; 22;9 , 12 ; 27;28 ; 28;4 , 30;20 ; 35;4 , 5 ; 41 ; 39

The word '' ANUNNAQI '' means '' Those Who ANU Sent Down , From Heaven To Earth '' . They came from the skies to the planet earth which was originally called Tiamat meaning '' Maiden Of Life ''. And also referred to as Tamtu And Tiwawat , And Qi , Ki , Tiamat .. Is also called Terra , Orb , Arduwt Or Ard . When the greek got hold of the word Qi , They changed it to Ge Where the word Geo comes from . . The ANUNNAQI in The Bible are called ELOHEEM . They got their name ANUNNAQI When they were coming to Earth . The ANUNNAQI are a race of Supreme Beings .

The word ANUNNAQI is used within The Ancient Tablets such as The Enuma Elish , The Gilgamesh Epics , Etc . The word ELOHEEM means ''' These Beings '' Or '' A Group Of ELOHS '' . ELOHEEMS Are angels of El or messengers of EL ELOH Who is ANU . They are physical Angelic Beings , Not Spooks Or Spirits Or Ghost . They are a host of beings that do the work of EL While on The Planet Earth under an appointed being . Then they are called El Who is under AL or El

The word '' ELOHEEM '' Is found throughout '' The Scroll Of Genesis and is Falsely translated as '' God '' The name ELOHEEM Is used for Both Agreeable And Disagreeable Beings And Even Humans As In Exodus 7 ; 1 , When YAHUWA Told MOSES That He Will Make Him An ELOHEEM For The PHARAOH . The ANUNNAQI , ELOHEEM



( Belief vs Knowledge )

Belief & Believe" are two of the most deceptive words in religion. Belief is ignorance. Belief is to ignore the facts, intentionally or ignorantly. If one has to believe, it means he or she does not know, and if one does not know, that is ignorance. Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong. But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt.

To believe is to accept things that you do NOT know. Either you know or you don't. Once you know - then you no longer have to believe and belief is the fuel of most religions. Belief = acceptance of things that you don't know
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Post by AussiePam »

Daniyal;1089394 wrote:

( Belief vs Knowledge )

Anyone can believe anything and this means that a person can believe, and be 100% wrong.


Absolutely. Being sincere in your belief does not make that belief right.



Daniyal;1089394 wrote: But knowledge is knowing and knowledge is correct information. "To know" gives one confidence, but belief infers doubt.

To believe is to accept things that you do NOT know. Either you know or you don't. Once you know - then you no longer have to believe and belief is the fuel of most religions. Belief = acceptance of things that you don't know


Indeed.

People have thought about this for a very long time. Philosophy has a whole area devoted to epistomology - the science of knowing. How we know what we know.

Teachers / textbooks refer to two basic kinds of knowledge - things that we know because they are a priori true, true by logical necessity, which means that they can be reduced to a tautology. We know that one and one will always make two in all possible worlds, because we define two as the sum of one and one. We know a circle will always be perfectly round, because that is the definition of a circle.

Where something cannot be reduced to tautology, we may be able to make a very convincing case for knowing it, based on our collective experience. The sun will rise tomorrow. It always has, so we can deduce it will do so tomorrow. But this is not logically necessary. Maybe it won't rise tomorrow. There is a second part to this kind of hypothesis too - what we think we know in this way, we know via our five senses (or six if you wish to include a spiritual/heart-sense too). And it has been shown often that these senses can all be tricked. So we don't really know the sun will rise, but we can say we believe it will. We may have loads of evidence to support our hypothesis, but we don't have certain knowledge.

This is the difference between knowledge and belief.

And I hope those fellow FGers who have also wrestled with Philosophy 101 will forgive me for any misrememberings or oversimplifications. I believe they will, because from experience I've so far found FGers are completely reasonable etc etc, but I don't know this for sure.
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Post by Daniyal »

AussiePam;1089402 wrote: Absolutely. Being sincere in your belief does not make that belief right.





Indeed.

People have thought about this for a very long time. Philosophy has a whole area devoted to epistomology - the science of knowing. How we know what we know.

Teachers / textbooks refer to two basic kinds of knowledge - things that we know because they are a priori true, true by logical necessity, which means that they can be reduced to a tautology. We know that one and one will always make two in all possible worlds, because we define two as the sum of one and one. We know a circle will always be perfectly round, because that is the definition of a circle.

Where something cannot be reduced to tautology, we may be able to make a very convincing case for knowing it, based on our collective experience. The sun will rise tomorrow. It always has, so we can deduce it will do so tomorrow. But this is not logically necessary. Maybe it won't rise tomorrow. There is a second part to this kind of hypothesis too - what we think we know in this way, we know via our five senses (or six if you wish to include a spiritual/heart-sense too). And it has been shown often that these senses can all be tricked. So we don't really know the sun will rise, but we can say we believe it will. We may have loads of evidence to support our hypothesis, but we don't have certain knowledge.

This is the difference between knowledge and belief.

And I hope those fellow FGers who have also wrestled with Philosophy 101 will forgive me for any misrememberings or oversimplifications. I believe they will, because from experience I've so far found FGers are completely reasonable etc etc, but I don't know this for sure.




Sound Like Something A Professor Who Passing On Something That Was Pass On To Him To Pass On To You , So You Passing It On Here , Meaning You're Pro -fessing To Know Something , Which You Don't . If You Though You Were Saying Something Heavy , I'm Not Impress , Other Here Might Be ,
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Post by spot »

Daniyal;1089410 wrote: Sound Like Something A Professor Who Passing On Something That Was Pass On To Him To Pass On To You , So You Passing It On Here , Meaning You're Pro -fessing To Know Something , Which You Don't . If You Though You Were Saying Something Heavy , I'm Not Impress , Other Here Might Be ,


No Daniyal, she's checking that you both use the same dictionary. She's defining her terms. If one person uses a word to mean this and another to mean that they'll make different statements. Each will be correct according to the definition they're using. That's why agreeing what the words mean is so important if there's to be a discussion.

The other area of knowledge you seem to reject is logic. The application of rigid rules to problem-solving. It's another of those areas where people normally share an existing set of techniques. If it turns out they don't share the same rules of logic then they can't meaningfully discuss anything without going back and laboriously constructing common ground. That's why we seem to have to go back to find which small subset of rules we both use, and which small subset of words we have which mean the same to both of us, before we can rebuild a dialogue. It's not a problem for people with more overlapping backgrounds.

If the bit about Professor and Pro-fessing is something you got from someone else you're on the thin ice of doing exactly what you're accusing Pam of doing. You have trigger areas just like people who can't ever see the word "assume" without telling that idiot joke about being an "ass". They just can't avoid doing it.

When Pam mentions Philosophy 101 she's referring to the basic set of logic rules we all stick to unless we warn people beforehand and explain the new rules. That's just politeness. It allows the people with the - wait for it - assumption - to spend far less time negotiating the actual rules of the day. It's not essential, it's just a courtesy.
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Post by Daniyal »

spot;1089440 wrote: No Daniyal, she's checking that you both use the same dictionary. She's defining her terms. If one person uses a word to mean this and another to mean that they'll make different statements. Each will be correct according to the definition they're using. That's why agreeing what the words mean is so important if there's to be a discussion.

The other area of knowledge you seem to reject is logic. The application of rigid rules to problem-solving. It's another of those areas where people normally share an existing set of techniques. If it turns out they don't share the same rules of logic then they can't meaningfully discuss anything without going back and laboriously constructing common ground. That's why we seem to have to go back to find which small subset of rules we both use, and which small subset of words we have which mean the same to both of us, before we can rebuild a dialogue. It's not a problem for people with more overlapping backgrounds.

If the bit about Professor and Pro-fessing is something you got from someone else you're on the thin ice of doing exactly what you're accusing Pam of doing. You have trigger areas just like people who can't ever see the word "assume" without telling that idiot joke about being an "ass". They just can't avoid doing it.

When Pam mentions Philosophy 101 she's referring to the basic set of logic rules we all stick to unless we warn people beforehand and explain the new rules. That's just politeness. It allows the people with the - wait for it - assumption - to spend far less time negotiating the actual rules of the day. It's not essential, it's just a courtesy.




I Have To Say Something Here Ok So Don't Take It Personal Ok . I Have Never Seen So Many Mind Reader , In My Life , Where Do SOME Of You Get This Authority To Tell People What They Mean / Say , And Change The Rules To Your Trian Of Though . We Both Know pam Was Trying To Play This Tricknowledge Game With The Words BELIEVE / BELIEF'. Like You With The Word Experience . If You Had All This Experience In The Things You Claim To Know , You Be One Of The Oldest Person On The Planet . I Want Thank You And Pam For The Laught This Morning :wah: Yall Can't Help Telling People What To Say / What To Do How To Act , I Guess It In The Blood Yes . Belief Infer Doubt , Believe = Don't Know No Matter How You Try To Slice It . But Hey Maybe Can We Get Back To The Subject At Hand . Oh For The Record I Don't Mind People Disagreeing With Me . Doesn't Change A Thing . I Stand By What I Say And That's It . Have A Bless Day
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Post by AussiePam »

Comments noted. Thanks.
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Post by jamali22 »

Asslam o Alaikum Warahmataalahe wabarakatauhu may peace mercy and blessings of Allah subhanwatalah be on all of u

i wana to mention that in the complete bible jesus crist never say himself that i am God or where say Worship me
"Say: He is Allah,

The One and Only.

"Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.

"He begets not, nor is He begotten.

And there is none like unto Him."

[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]
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Post by freethinkingthuthseeker »

Jesus is the only Begotton son of God. He is referred to many times in the old testement in psalms, ezekiel Ishiah Genesis and more.

He directly also stated that anyone who asks his Father through his name anything will be granted this unless it is an unclean request obviously.

I do wondewr why Mohammed is the only prophet who needed 23 years of "revelations" to have his message when every other prohet was given deeper messages in a few visions within 1 month?

I also wonder why the Quaran is so incredibly repetitive, why it came 600 years after Christ and after the Book of revelations which ends the Bible? The Bible is complete without any additional information needed.

Finally I would love to know ( after having read the quran) what new Wisdom is within the Quaran which was not already in the Bible? When I say "wisdom" I do not mean knowledge such as scientific facts but real wisom as is found abundantly in the Bible. There is science in the Bible too but that is for another topic.

I eagerly lookforward to responses on all these points in peace and blessings

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Post by efidancim »

Ä°n Ä°slam Jesus is a prophet not son of God and he didnt killed.Jesus will come an kill the deccal or help to Mehdi to kill deccal
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Post by Týr »

efidancim;1461654 wrote: Ä°n Ä°slam Jesus is a prophet not son of God and he didnt killed.Jesus will come an kill the deccal or help to Mehdi to kill deccal


Has Jesus much experience of killing, or is he just going to pick it up as he goes along? I can't think of any occasions where he's killed anybody in the last 2000 years.
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Post by gmc »

Jesus is the only Begotton son of God. He is referred to many times in the old testement in psalms, ezekiel Ishiah Genesis and more.

He directly also stated that anyone who asks his Father through his name anything will be granted this unless it is an unclean request obviously.


Really? Do you believe that or are you a unitarian

freethinkingthuthseeker

I also wonder why the Quaran is so incredibly repetitive, why it came 600 years after Christ and after the Book of revelations which ends the Bible? The Bible is complete without any additional information needed.




What version of the bible are you talking about? The christian bible is a carefully edited book, edited tio make sure only the "right" message was put out. Many gospels were deliberately destroyed also it wasn't written in english so what you read is the result also of the varous interpretations put on the translationj by translaters who were looking over their shoulders in case they annoyed the church authorities. That's not some com=nspiracvy theory you can look up the dates of the various congresses that set out what the message was to be and what was heresy. The shia/sunni dispuite is very similar to the catholic protestant one - do you find your way to god yourself or do you follow what the priests tell you. control access to god and you control whole populations, ubtil they start to quetion you that is.

As to the koran it's fairly obvious where the inspiration came from - it's no surprise chunks of it are like the bible.
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Post by FourPart »

As I understand it, even the 4 Gospels are telling exactly the same story. That seems fairly repetative to me.

Besides, the Qu'ran is actually a different version of the Old Testament, with variances on the names (probably more accurate ones) of the characters within (eg 'David' is 'Dawood', 'Abraham' is 'Ebrahim', etc). The names we know are mainly the Westernised versions which have changed over time. Islam, on the other hand doesn't change over time, hence the reason their culture is still living in the Middle Ages.

I am totally Anti-Religious, as I see it to be the root of all wars & related atrocities in its name, but I do recognise the existance of Jesus, and that far from being any sort of a deity, he was a free thinking radical with a mind of his own, rather than adhering to the dogma of the current culture. It was his followers who went on to cast him as some sort of 'God' figure, making up stories with no validity to support their case - such as providing a verbatim documentation of him out in the desert, chatting to Satan. The question has to be asked, who was there to take notes of what was said?

These name stories thrive in all religious texts. As with all stories, they need to get embellished on each time they're told, otherwise they become stale & lose interest. Such are the roots of Religion. No doubt one day Ghandi will be worshiped in future scriptures as being another Son of God (if he isn't so already).
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Post by gmc »

posted by four part

As I understand it, even the 4 Gospels are telling exactly the same story. That seems fairly repetative to me.


As you understand it? Read them for yourself and find out.

Of course they are similar if they didn't till the story in line with the accepted version they would have been kicked out. They were also written well after the events and not by the apostles themseleves.

but I do recognise the existance of Jesus, and that far from being any sort of a deity,


tsk tsk such herey. Not so very long ago that statemnt if said out loud in public would have had you facing a charge of heresy even now in some places you would get a good kicking. Other than the bible there is very little historical evidence to back up the existence of jesus

These name stories thrive in all religious texts. As with all stories, they need to get embellished on each time they're told, otherwise they become stale & lose interest. Such are the roots of Religion. No doubt one day Ghandi will be worshiped in future scriptures as being another Son of God (if he isn't so already).


No he isn't and isn't likely to be unless some powerful like figure like say an emperor can find a use for doing so. Sadly his dream of religious pluralism failed on the intransigence of monotheism which cannot accept the right of people to believe as they choose. You will never have freedom where religion rules.
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Post by FourPart »



tsk tsk such herey. Not so very long ago that statemnt if said out loud in public would have had you facing a charge of heresy even now in some places you would get a good kicking. Other than the bible there is very little historical evidence to back up the existence of jesus


A perfect example of the hypocrisy of Religion. It teaches Peace & Love & tries to enforce it through Violence & Hatred.

As for the existence of Jesus, although not 100%, it is pretty certain, as Romans were very good at keeping records, and his crucifixion was recorded, if nothing else. Furthermore, he never claimed to be the Son of God. At the most he claimed "We are ALL the children of God".

I have no problem at all with his ethics as a man, and the tenets he taught, but once it goes into the world of fantasy & fairies, that's a different matter.

No he isn't and isn't likely to be unless some powerful like figure like say an emperor can find a use for doing so. Sadly his dream of religious pluralism failed on the intransigence of monotheism which cannot accept the right of people to believe as they choose. You will never have freedom where religion rules.
As I said, it wasn't him who claimed to be the son of God - nor was it an Emperor, or any other Political Leader, but his fanatical followers. With enough of those shouting loud enough, the belief spirals in just the same way as modern Urban Myths - many of which are so plausible that they are taken to be fact - then they progressively get embellished further, little by little, until they become so bizarre that they are preposterous, yet because they've been going so long they continue to be accepted as truth.
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Post by gmc »

four part

As I said, it wasn't him who claimed to be the son of God - nor was it an Emperor, or any other Political Leader, but his fanatical followers. With enough of those shouting loud enough, the belief spirals in just the same way as modern Urban Myths - many of which are so plausible that they are taken to be fact - then they progressively get embellished further, little by little, until they become so bizarre that they are preposterous, yet because they've been going so long they continue to be accepted as truth.


Actually his fanatical followers killed each other over that very issue - whether you have the father son and holy ghost three seperately subsisting individuals as first incorporatd in the nicene creed (congress of nicea convened by emperor constntine who had realised the value of controlling religious beliefs) or whether they are actually all one. The nicene creed w the one that if you didn't accept it made you a heretic and fait gam for the catholic church. Hundreds of thousands if not millions died in the fighting over the issue, the holocaust was not the first mass murder in the nam of religion. The thing is if the bible or the koran is then only book you read and acept all that is in it as truth not only will you be incredibly ignorant and incapable of thinking for yourself you will go insane trying to work out the meaning behind the contradictions and end up wantkng to slaughter dissenters rather than make up your own mind.
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Post by Saint_ »

gmc;1461745 wrote: The thing is if the bible or the koran is then only book you read and acept all that is in it as truth not only will you be incredibly ignorant and incapable of thinking for yourself you will go insane trying to work out the meaning behind the contradictions


Hello? Pahu? Are you listening to this?:thinking:
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Post by FourPart »

Saint_;1461746 wrote: Hello? Pahu? Are you listening to this?:thinking:
lol - Don't tempt fate.
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Post by eyyupk »

Kur'an verse about Jesus(pum) -Ä°slam name Ä°sa (A.s.)

The Cow (87)

And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.



The Cow (136)

Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.



The Cow (253)

We have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends.



The Family Of Imran (45)

When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).



The Family Of Imran (52)

But when isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.



The Family Of Imran (55)

And when Allah said: O isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.



The Family Of Imran (59)

Surely the likeness of isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.



The Family Of Imran (84)

Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.



Women (157)

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.



Women (163)

Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood



Women (171)

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.



The Food (46)

And We sent after them in their footsteps isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).



The Food (78)

Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.



The Food (110)

When Allah will say: O isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.



The Food (112)

When the disciples said: O isa son of Marium! will your Lord consent to send down to us food from heaven? He said: Be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.



The Food (116)

And when Allah will say: O isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.



The Cattle (85)

And Zakariya and Yahya and isa and Ilyas; every one was of the good;



Marium (34)

Such is isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.



The Allies (7)

And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant



The Counsel (13)

He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.

The Embellishment (63)

And when isa came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me:

I hope it helps you
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Post by eyyupk »

Arabic should be known for the actual translation

source:Kuran'da Ara Bul, Kuran, kuranikerim, sesli kuran, kuran dinle, kuran video, meal, dua, sure, ayet, meali, duası, ayeti, suresi, diyanet, meali
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

eyyupk;1489675 wrote: Kur'an verse about Jesus(pum) -Ä°slam name Ä°sa (A.s.)

The Cow (87)

And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.



The Cow (136)

Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.



The Cow (253)

We have made some of these apostles to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends.



The Family Of Imran (45)

When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).



The Family Of Imran (52)

But when isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.



The Family Of Imran (55)

And when Allah said: O isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.



The Family Of Imran (59)

Surely the likeness of isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.



The Family Of Imran (84)

Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.



Women (157)

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.



Women (163)

Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood



Women (171)

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.



The Food (46)

And We sent after them in their footsteps isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).



The Food (78)

Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.



The Food (110)

When Allah will say: O isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.



The Food (112)

When the disciples said: O isa son of Marium! will your Lord consent to send down to us food from heaven? He said: Be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.



The Food (116)

And when Allah will say: O isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.



The Cattle (85)

And Zakariya and Yahya and isa and Ilyas; every one was of the good;



Marium (34)

Such is isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.



The Allies (7)

And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant



The Counsel (13)

He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently.

The Embellishment (63)

And when isa came with clear arguments he said: I have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me:

I hope it helps you


It does, and welcome to the Garden :-6
eyyupk
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Jesus (PUM) in Islam

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