American Sniper

Discussion of Books, Literature, Book Reviews, and more!
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1472735 wrote: I have probably, over the course of my life, broken at least 9 of the ten commandments,


I wont ask......







Edited to make Snooz's post look daft.

Not really Snooz.......honest.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Snooz
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:05 am

American Sniper

Post by Snooz »

I won't not ask either... did you covet your neighbor's wife?
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

Snooz;1472743 wrote: I won't not ask either... did your covet your neighbor's wife?


Ah! thank you. There is one I didn't.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Snooz
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:05 am

American Sniper

Post by Snooz »

An interesting article wondering why American Sniper made so much money on the same weekend that Selma was in theaters, the long weekend celebrating Martin Luther King's birthday.

American Sniper Earned $107 Million Over MLK Weekend, Proving Many Americans Still Don’t Get MLK | VS. BRIAN
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

American Sniper

Post by gmc »

It's that not actually a quotation from one of america's serial killers? I don't believe a british soldier would have such bad spelling and use americanisms. Then again he's cavalry not the sas or marines.

We all hold the power of life and death over others. I realised this tonight when a cyclist told me it was customary to let cyclists out on a roundabout and let them pull out in front of you even if you are actually already on the roundabout and have right of way. My witty riposte that cycling must be damaging his brain he failed to appreciate. I could have killed several cyclists tonight but chose not to. Should I get a tattoo?

posted by tude dog

Removing evil from the Earth is a noble cause.


No it's not - that's what islamic state have set out to do what is noble about that? Or even remotely sane?

MLK died almost two generations ago maybe in an age of video warfare we shouldn't be too surpised if a story about a real life arcade warrior (couldn't quite think how to put that) takes preference over a film about ideals.
User avatar
Snooz
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:05 am

American Sniper

Post by Snooz »

Well, considering we've had protesters in Ferguson for months now, and other cities protesting police violence against Blacks, MLK still seems like a topical subject. But yeah, no exploding heads so I can understand the indifference.
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

Snooz;1472728 wrote: I get the impression they portray him in the movie as a man torn apart by the horrors he's seen versus the enjoyment he gets from shooting people the real guy claims in his book. I've heard people defending him by saying he had to have that mindset to survive but really? Some of the passages from the book make him sound like a very happy sociopath that found his calling in life.

Bradley Cooper looks great with the added bulk though so I might watch it for him.
Did you see Silver Linings Playbook?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1472757 wrote: It's that not actually a quotation from one of america's serial killers? I don't believe a british soldier would have such bad spelling and use americanisms. Then again he's cavalry not the sas or marines.


My nephew says that it is from pulp fiction called, "Sniper Elite"

gmc;1472757 wrote: We all hold the power of life and death over others. I realised this tonight when a cyclist told me it was customary to let cyclists out on a roundabout and let them pull out in front of you even if you are actually already on the roundabout and have right of way. My witty riposte that cycling must be damaging his brain he failed to appreciate. I could have killed several cyclists tonight but chose not to. Should I get a tattoo?

posted by tude dog

Removing evil from the Earth is a noble cause.


No it's not - that's what islamic state have set out to do what is noble about that? Or even remotely sane?

MLK died almost two generations ago maybe in an age of video warfare we shouldn't be too surpised if a story about a real life arcade warrior (couldn't quite think how to put that) takes preference over a film about ideals.


I like the way you put that.

Committing evil to remove evil is not at all noble. That has often be pointed out, most recently by such men as Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr, among others.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Snooz
Posts: 4800
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:05 am

American Sniper

Post by Snooz »

flopstock;1472827 wrote: Did you see Silver Linings Playbook?


No, do you think I'd like it? I like Jennifer Lawrence a lot, like 99.99% of the planet.
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

Snooz;1472835 wrote: No, do you think I'd like it? I like Jennifer Lawrence a lot, like 99.99% of the planet.


I really liked it and I didn't think I would.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1472704 wrote: Hmmm, MY God says, "Thou shall not kill."


Be it a difference of translation, or context of the whole text, I read it as "Thou shall not murder."
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

flopstock;1472725 wrote: So .. I'll be driving for a coupe of hours each way today and should be able to listen to several more chapters (hope he doesn't spend as much time giving me gun details - lol) into this book. So far, I'm imagining the movie is a lot different, considering how many seemed to have liked it..


Until you posted I had no plans to read that book. Well, I ordered the book and it is still a few days away.

I understand how distracting gun details can be from the story. Reminds me of reading books by Tom Clancy. He does a lot of detail of what weapons his characters use, all of which us regular folk have no idea of.

I still enjoyed the books.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1472991 wrote: Be it a difference of translation, or context of the whole text, I read it as "Thou shall not murder."


What is the difference ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

American Sniper

Post by FourPart »

Thou Shalt Not Kill....?

"A sorcerer shall not be allowed to live."

(Exodus 22:17)

"And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast."

(Leviticus 20:15)

"And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor".

(Numbers 25:5)
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1473014 wrote: Thou Shalt Not Kill....?

"A sorcerer shall not be allowed to live."

(Exodus 22:17)

"And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast."

(Leviticus 20:15)

"And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor".

(Numbers 25:5)


God didn't say those things.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

American Sniper

Post by FourPart »

He didn't say "Thou Shalt Not Kill" either.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1473040 wrote: He didn't say "Thou Shalt Not Kill" either.


Probably not, but The King James version of the translation is as close as I can read or write.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Lon
Posts: 9476
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:38 pm

American Sniper

Post by Lon »

I read the book and saw the movie and have read all the foregoing posts and here are my thoughts on this man.

Irrespective of should we even be involved in the Middle East problems or not, irrespective of who are the good guys and the bad guys, Kyle's job was to kill others that were attempting to kill his fellows or to kill those that had the potential to kill his fellows. He did that admirably and I say "Well Done" & Kiss My Ass Michael Moore.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

American Sniper

Post by Ahso! »

Lon;1473055 wrote: I read the book and saw the movie and have read all the foregoing posts and here are my thoughts on this man.

Irrespective of should we even be involved in the Middle East problems or not, irrespective of who are the good guys and the bad guys, Kyle's job was to kill others that were attempting to kill his fellows or to kill those that had the potential to kill his fellows. He did that admirably and I say "Well Done" & Kiss My Ass Michael Moore.One wonders why members of the Bush administration and congress are still alive and well.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1473005 wrote: What is the difference ?


Difference is intent.

Looking up the actual word used in the commandant best describes.

"the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war."

[url=http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html]
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1473211 wrote: Difference is intent.

Looking up the actual word used in the commandant best describes.

"the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war."

[url=http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html]


Now we get into discussions as to 'Just' wars or who's type of 'Justice' ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1473219 wrote: Now we get into discussions as to 'Just' wars or who's type of 'Justice' ?


Sounds good for a new thread.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1473224 wrote: Sounds good for a new thread.


It all depends what side your on.........no need for discussion......thats the way it has always been.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

American Sniper

Post by FourPart »

"Just War" - isn't that what "Jihad" means?
User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1473227 wrote: It all depends what side your on.........no need for discussion......thats the way it has always been.


Thanks, that makes sense to me.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

So does he really love the marines, because the more I listen to this book and hear the backhanded compliments, I can't decide if he just viewed them like little brothers that depended on him for their survival or whether he really meant those comments to be positive and they just sound bad to my ears?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

flopstock;1473471 wrote: So does he really love the marines, because the more I listen to this book and hear the backhanded compliments, I can't decide if he just viewed them like little brothers that depended on him for their survival or whether he really meant those comments to be positive and they just sound bad to my ears?


Well he is Navy. We Sailors always talked that kind of crap about them, but I never knew a Navy man who did not, deep down, truly have the utmost respect for the Marines.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

Then I read stuff like this ..

ISIS photos appear to show Jordanian pilot burned alive - CNN.com
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1473228 wrote: "Just War" - isn't that what "Jihad" means?


Simple translation, Jihad = Struggle

in the current use by most of the warring muslim factions Jihad is the struggle with non-believers.

That is us.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

So I've listened far enough into this that he's lost buddies and says he used to feel invincible but that had changed now.



I'm also far enough in that I believe he really does like those Marines, Army and Airforce guys a lot, but I haven't heard much love for any of the Navy pukes except fellow seals.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

flopstock;1473741 wrote: So I've listened far enough into this that he's lost buddies and says he used to feel invincible but that had changed now.



I'm also far enough in that I believe he really does like those Marines, Army and Airforce guys a lot, but I haven't heard much love for any of the Navy pukes except fellow seals.


That sounds about right. The rest of us Squids were low-life, lazy, good-for-nothings as far as the Seals I used to know were concerned.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6476
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

American Sniper

Post by FourPart »

I am the Walrus.
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

American Sniper

Post by AnneBoleyn »

FourPart;1473752 wrote: I am the Walrus.


Goo goo g'joob
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

FourPart;1473752 wrote: I am the Walrus.
Second time I've heard that in a week! How freaky is that! lol
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

OK, read the book, last night watched the movie.

Other than to say, he was the right guy for the mission.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

Done with this one and I don't know if it was because it was my first audio book or the book itself, but it just seemed to fizzle at the end. I had to check to see if it had accidently kept playing from the last time I listened...lol I just missed any real closure from it.

BTW, news reports are now saying that his wife is not donating proceeds from the book to veterans groups like he had stated he planned to. She shouldn't have to, IMO. She had a different take on his life experience then he did and if it was me- I would be a tad resentful of veterans.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
YZGI
Posts: 11518
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:24 am

American Sniper

Post by YZGI »

flopstock;1474388 wrote: Done with this one and I don't know if it was because it was my first audio book or the book itself, but it just seemed to fizzle at the end. I had to check to see if it had accidently kept playing from the last time I listened...lol I just missed any real closure from it.

BTW, news reports are now saying that his wife is not donating proceeds from the book to veterans groups like he had stated he planned to. She shouldn't have to, IMO. She had a different take on his life experience then he did and if it was me- I would be a tad resentful of veterans.


It's not her job to take care of our veterans, it' our governments job.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

American Sniper

Post by Ahso! »

YZGI;1474392 wrote: It's not her job to take care of our veterans, it' our governments job.Veteran's affairs organizations receive donations all the time. The fact that the sniper guy wanted to donate the proceeds of the book to veteran's need should be honored in his memory. Why shouldn't it?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

YZGI;1474392 wrote: It's not her job to take care of our veterans, it' our governments job.


I agree and after listening to her parts of the book and then having him killed by a vet he was trying to help, I could see per position. Then you have the movie that presumably she's making money off of. At what point do outside interests quit feeling entitled to a piece of the proceeds? I would imagine she is quietly helping guys they were friends with. The fact that it isn't in the news would naturally be counted against her.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

YZGI;1474392 wrote: It's not her job to take care of our veterans, it' our governments job.


True, but history shows the gummint has done a damned poor job of taking care of veterans, going all the way back to the Revolution.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

American Sniper

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1474419 wrote: True, but history shows the gummint has done a damned poor job of taking care of veterans, going all the way back to the Revolution.I have little knowledge of past veteran care. Like any other organization the VA has had its problems, but my health care is pretty much top notch. I don't particularly care for having a christian doctor but otherwise I'm treated very well. I speak with other vets when I'm at the office or hospital and they all say that their experiences have been similar to mine.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

I visited the US for three weeks, and one of the many things that struck me was the preponderance of veteran centres, every little town seemed to have one.............just an observation.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1474443 wrote: I visited the US for three weeks, and one of the many things that struck me was the preponderance of veteran centres, every little town seemed to have one.............just an observation.


I suspect you refer to something like the VFW, or American Legion.

These are private organizations of veterans.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

LarsMac;1474445 wrote: I suspect you refer to something like the VFW, or American Legion.

These are private organizations of veterans.


The first thing was the US Flag flying in a high percentage of homes, I knew to expect that, but I wasn't looking....but saw signs of the military.

Somewhere in the middle of Iowa I have photos of me and my grandson with a tank and jet fighter as the backdrop, my noticing buildings with Veteran signage attached reinforced the military presence.

It was just my first impression, draw what ever conclusion you like.

As you know....Water closets drew my attention also...... they way they flush.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

Yeah, we have our fascination with machines of war. And the military is often generous with equipment that they no longer need, and some local vet knows where to acquire a jet, or a tank or such toys on the cheap. Some are leftover from the local National Guard Armory, too.

When I was a young'n, the airfield my dad and his friends flew out of had a Sherman Tank in the main building. I explored every nook and cranny of the thing.

Most kids here loved all the toys. Some of us outgrew them as we aged, though.

I can't say I am one of those. I still enjoy stopping at the little museums along the highways and checking out whatever implements of destruction might be found.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

I hit as many of the memorial services as I can in our area each year. Not a lot of the old timers left, but I always find someone at each to thank for their service.
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

American Sniper

Post by Bruv »

There is a different mindset between our two nations..............as well as the language difference.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
tude dog
Posts: 5121
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:48 am

American Sniper

Post by tude dog »

I was 14 years old at the beginning of the Viet Nam War when me and my best buddy took up going to the local Vet Hospital to visit the wounded.

We had an angle in that we brought checker/chess boards. We didn't play as much board games as they taught us to shoot pool. Who knew pool tables were an integral part of the recovery process?

WIN/WIN
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
User avatar
flopstock
Posts: 7406
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:52 am

American Sniper

Post by flopstock »

The whole thing is a tragedy.

'American Sniper' trial: Chad Littlefield's parents say 'justice was served' | MSNBC
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.

Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6

User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12542
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

American Sniper

Post by LarsMac »

flopstock;1474765 wrote: The whole thing is a tragedy.

'American Sniper' trial: Chad Littlefield's parents say 'justice was served' | MSNBC


Two sentences in that article stand out when I read it.

"Routh, a former Marine corporal who served in Iraq but not in a combat role, was sentenced to life in prison without parole."

"The two friends had taken Routh to the range reportedly to help his transition from combat to civilian life."

I have to wonder what kind of story the guy gave them.

It is a shame. Two guys trying to do good in the world, and now gone.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir

Return to “The Library”