American Sniper

Discussion of Books, Literature, Book Reviews, and more!
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flopstock
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Post by flopstock »

So I got this book through an audible site so that I can listen to it while doing the treadmill. figured I'd read it before seeing the movie/

Have any of you read this? Are any of you reading it?

Any thoughts you like to share/discuss?

I'm an Airforce mom and my inclination is generally Rah - Rah USA... but the beginning of this book kinda creeps me out.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

When it is "us" doing the sniping, it's commendable. When it is "them" they are terrorists. Even when it is "us" who invaded "them."
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Post by LarsMac »

I have not read it, or seen the flick, yet.

In the early 70s I was a volunteer at a crisis center. We handled all sorts of issues, from drug overdoses, and bad trips to people contemplating suicide and and such.

One guy came in carrying a bottle of drain cleaner, and said he was prepared to drink it.

He had been a sniper in 'nam and was haunted by what he had done. We were unable to convince him not to drink the stuff, but we did stall him long enough to have the EMTs walking in the door as he swallowed it.

He lived, and now hear he is a counselor for vets of the latest Bush wars.

This author apparently never suffered such hauntings. I guess you would have to be able to completely justify your actions, and never entertain the slightest doubt to be a good sniper.

The mindset of such people worries me. I expect many of them now are employed by Police SWAT teams.
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Post by gmc »

I find the furore a bit ridiculous. Is it any worse than dropping bombs on people that can't defend themselves or using using unmanned drones so there is no risk to the attacker at all? That's worse IMO sanitaised warfare without risk. If you go to war it's a bit silly to be precious about how you kill people.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1472421 wrote: I find the furore a bit ridiculous. Is it any worse than dropping bombs on people that can't defend themselves or using using unmanned drones so there is no risk to the attacker at all? That's worse IMO sanitaised warfare without risk. If you go to war it's a bit silly to be precious about how you kill people.


I agree. That is why I did not go.
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Post by flopstock »

I read a news story that indicated he had trouble with alcohol when he got out, before he got some help... I'll have to see if I can find that.

I know they say he donated the proceeds from the book to families of lost soldiers and in all the stories and interviews he comes off like a super guy. And he worked with troubled vets and was in fact killed by one..

But at the beginning where he is talking about how evil these folks were, I'm not sure if he's trying to convince the reader or himself.
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Post by Lon »

AnneBoleyn;1472416 wrote: When it is "us" doing the sniping, it's commendable. When it is "them" they are terrorists. Even when it is "us" who invaded "them."


Why did we INVADE THEM? Your opinion please Anne.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Lon;1472483 wrote: Why did we INVADE THEM? Your opinion please Anne.


I was thinking of Iraq for this instance, though I could mention others. Do you disagree that we invaded Iraq, where the film takes place?

I believe we invaded Iraq based on false information with prior intent to invade Iraq at the first excuse, even before 9/11 occurred. I remember reading of such intent on the part of GW before the election v. Gore.
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Post by Lon »

AnneBoleyn;1472486 wrote: I was thinking of Iraq for this instance, though I could mention others. Do you disagree that we invaded Iraq, where the film takes place?

I believe we invaded Iraq based on false information with prior intent to invade Iraq at the first excuse, even before 9/11 occurred. I remember reading of such intent on the part of GW before the election v. Gore.


No I don't disagree
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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1472421 wrote: I find the furore a bit ridiculous. Is it any worse than dropping bombs on people that can't defend themselves or using using unmanned drones so there is no risk to the attacker at all? That's worse IMO sanitaised warfare without risk. If you go to war it's a bit silly to be precious about how you kill people.


Hmm, ,

Dropping bombs, drone attacks include killing bystanders.

A sniper has only one target at a time.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc;1472421 wrote: I find the furore a bit ridiculous. Is it any worse than dropping bombs on people that can't defend themselves or using using unmanned drones so there is no risk to the attacker at all? That's worse IMO sanitaised warfare without risk. If you go to war it's a bit silly to be precious about how you kill people.


Besides you, who suggested it was worse?
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Post by gmc »

AnneBoleyn;1472498 wrote: Besides you, who suggested it was worse?


I didn't just suggest it was any worse I also asked if was any worse and I even put a question mark at the end of the sentence. I suggested it was worse because that is my opinion on the matter and what has what anyone else said got to do with it? I don't need to wait for anyone else to express an opinion before stating my own. If you have no opinion on the matter that's fair enough but if you are going to take umbrage don't expect me to apologise for having an opinion you don't agree with especially if you have no opinion of your own to offer on the matter. I don't think warfare should be reduced to sanitary or surgical and collateral damage a mere incidental in the proceedings. Go to war if you must just don't pretend it is anything but nasty. The best way to kill an enemy is in a way so he doesn't have a chance why pretend there is anything noble about it? The reality is we invaded iraq because militarily the forces against iraq were so overwhelming they had little realistic chance of stopping them. Do you really think if the odds were even we would have done so?

Why are snipers viewed as cowards by some (that is not actually my opinion if you want to know) and it's seen as sneaky and unfair (for want of a better word) for killing from afar without warning when bomber pilots or drone pilots are not? It's an odd double standard, maybe it just seems worse to us because the sniper sees his target and watches them die and it seems quite cold blooded. Many troops must have killed at close quarters during the iraq war come to that some at least will have had to decide in a split instant whether to fire or not at what later turned out to be unarmed civilians or even children or hesitated and cost the lives of their mates and have to live with the consequences of that decision

I save my approbrium for the politicians that caused this mess criticising the soldiers involved and the decisions they made gives them (the politicians that is) a cop out.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Gosh, all I did was ask a question. You're so cute when you're mad. I agree with all you say above.
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Post by tude dog »

This Brit Craig Harrison (sniper) Seems comfortable.



I admire such men.
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Post by Bruv »

Funny.......I have every sympathy with them, they have major problems.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1472573 wrote: This Brit Craig Harrison (sniper) Seems comfortable.



I admire such men.


Sick, arrogant son of a bitch in my opinion.
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Post by Ahso! »

AnneBoleyn;1472608 wrote: Sick, arrogant son of a bitch in my opinion.Not only that; it's senseless and the grammar is poor to boot. It's insulting to the very God he (and TD) believes in. If it's an actual tattoo he should go shoot the guy who did it and himself for approving it. Better yet, go shoot everyone who agrees with it first.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1472611 wrote: Not only that; it's senseless and the grammar is poor to boot. It's insulting to the very God he (and TD) believes in. If it's an actual tattoo he should go shoot the guy who did it and himself for approving it. Better yet, go shoot everyone who agrees with it first.


yup it is an insult to God.

All I know is that I wouldn't wish to be standing next to him when a lightning storm is approaching.
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Post by tude dog »

Removing evil from the Earth is a noble cause.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1472656 wrote: Removing evil from the Earth is a noble cause.


So said God ?

Helloooo God.
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1472657 wrote: So said God ?


No

Made it up myself.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1472662 wrote: No

Made it up myself.


Do you hear voices in your head ?
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Post by tude dog »

LarsMac;1472634 wrote: yup it is an insult to God.

All I know is that I wouldn't wish to be standing next to him when a lightning storm is approaching.


I would be proud to stand next to such a man.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1472664 wrote: I would be proud to stand next to such a man.


Great........if I was a sniper it would be easier to take you both out.......a noble task.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1472666 wrote: Great........if I was a sniper it would be easier to take you both out.......a noble task.


"If I were a sniper.....la la la la la la la la la la la" sung to the tune of "If I were a Rich Man"
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1472666 wrote: Great........if I was a sniper it would be easier to take you both out.......a noble task.


Just as well.

Taking me out would be a noble task. Just wish I could be around to read about my murder on Forum Gardens.
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“Never doubt the courage of the French. They were the ones who discovered that snails are edible.”
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1472678 wrote: Just as well.

Taking me out would be a noble task. Just wish I coulf be around to read about my murder on Forum Gardens.


*I* would miss you.
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Post by Bruv »

AnneBoleyn;1472679 wrote: *I* would miss you.


I wouldn't..........not with telescopic sights
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472634 wrote: yup it is an insult to God.

All I know is that I wouldn't wish to be standing next to him when a lightning storm is approaching.Which serves to prove that God and religiously based morality is mostly nothing more than a convenience for non-thinking individuals.

If parents and the culture in general spent as much time and resources teaching it's young how to read and write as it does shooting guns (and hoops) we might not have ever seen this swollen hand with such senseless gibberish tattooed all over it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1472662 wrote: No

Made it up myself.Well, according to you, you and boyscout are above God anyway. So just keep making it up as you go.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1472664 wrote: I would be proud to stand next to such a man.Yeah, you, Susan Atkins and the rest of the Manson-type followers in the world.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1472680 wrote: I wouldn't..........not with telescopic sights


Dude, if you are that lame. Just walk up say HI and I'll give you my gun.

Have a nice time in prison thinking about your life there.
If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles,” Doug Larson.

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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1472684 wrote: Well, according to you, you and boyscout are above God anyway. So just keep making it up as you go.


I decided not to involve religious scripture, beliefs etc. as all that is just a distraction.

It was inaccurate for me to say I just made it all up.
If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles,” Doug Larson.

“Never doubt the courage of the French. They were the ones who discovered that snails are edible.”
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1472685 wrote: Yeah, you, Susan Atkins and the rest of the Manson-type followers in the world.


OK, whatever.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1472687 wrote: Dude, if you are that lame. Just walk up say HI and I'll give you my gun.

Have a nice time in prison thinking about your life there.


Blimey Charlie............me lame ?

I thought you was my straight man and we were a comedy double act.........you telling me you were serious all the time?
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1472698 wrote: Blimey Charlie............me lame ?

I thought you was my straight man and we were a comedy double act.........you telling me you were serious all the time?


Give me a break.

It is no secret I like, own and carry guns. If I were to say something like putting you or anybody else in my cross hairs I would expect a lot of grief.
If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles,” Doug Larson.

“Never doubt the courage of the French. They were the ones who discovered that snails are edible.”
― Doug Larson
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1472683 wrote: Which serves to prove that God and religiously based morality is mostly nothing more than a convenience for non-thinking individuals.

If parents and the culture in general spent as much time and resources teaching it's young how to read and write as it does shooting guns (and hoops) we might not have ever seen this swollen hand with such senseless gibberish tattooed all over it.


My parents taught me respect others, to read and write, and to respect God. Pretty much in that order. and they also taught to fish, hunt, shoot guns, even how to think for myself.

I am pretty sure that hand belongs to a Brit, and I don't presume to know what his parents taught him, but it probably has little to do with the culture he seems to have adopted.
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Post by LarsMac »

tude dog;1472656 wrote: Removing evil from the Earth is a noble cause.


Bruv;1472657 wrote: So said God ?

Helloooo God.


tude dog;1472662 wrote: No

Made it up myself.


Hmmm, MY God says, "Thou shall not kill."
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472703 wrote: My parents taught me respect others, to read and write, and to respect God. Pretty much in that order. and they also taught to fish, hunt, shoot guns, even how to think for myself.

I am pretty sure that hand belongs to a Brit, and I don't presume to know what his parents taught him, but it probably has little to do with the culture he seems to have adopted.Forgive my indulgence, but might I ask what the purpose to this post is? Why make it personal? It's a weak argument. You've obviously been subject to cultural lies and fairly tales which you've adopted. So!

Should I (or anyone else for that matter) put more weight in the notion of "God" merely because you're a believer? Are you presuming that that adds credence to this particular fairly tale? Sorry, not good enough, you being a nice person and all that notwithstanding.

I'm fully aware that the hand in question supposedly belongs to a Brit, and it changes nothing of what I previously posted; the indictment stands regardless of country of origin. Whomever owns the hand is an uneducated dolt, and, screwy parenting is screwy parenting no matter who is subject to it or where it occurs. Neither any particular person nor Country will find any exemption to that.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472704 wrote: Hmmm, MY God says, "Thou shall not kill."And yet advocate hunting and fishing? Square that for me, would you.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1472714 wrote: Forgive my indulgence, but might I ask what the purpose to this post is? Why make it personal? It's a weak argument. You've obviously been subject to cultural lies and fairly tales which you've adopted. So!

Should I (or anyone else for that matter) put more weight in the notion of "God" merely because you're a believer? Are you presuming that that adds credence to this particular fairly tale? Sorry, not good enough, you being a nice person and all that notwithstanding.

I'm fully aware that the hand in question supposedly belongs to a Brit, and it changes nothing of what I previously posted; the indictment stands regardless of country of origin. Whomever owns the hand is an uneducated dolt, and, screwy parenting is screwy parenting no matter who is subject to it or where it occurs. Neither any particular person nor Country will find any exemption to that.


Just an observation. Of no more or less significance than the post to which it was a response.

Another observation: You spend much time presuming a lot about people whom you know nothing about.

And a question: Are you lashing out at the demons, or is this merely a cultural adaptation to the things your parents taught you.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1472715 wrote: And yet advocate hunting and fishing? Square that for me, would you.


For me, I have it squared. You have to work out your own dilemma.
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472717 wrote: For me, I have it squared. You have to work out your own dilemma.So that would be a: "No, I won't because I can't, though I will, in the mean time, hide behind some defensive posturing until the subject changes."? You made an argument, now support it. This is a discussion forum where values, opinions and (dare I say) notions are exchanged, shared and proven/disproved.

How about we try this route:

- Is it that Moses just didn't have the dictation skills or time to get the commandment down on the stone accurately? And Why would God allow that to occur in such a vital conversation?

- Perhaps God forgot to specify "humans" in the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment? Or maybe God figured we were all smart enough to get the assumption right? But then God also claims that man cannot know the mind of God, no? Seemingly lots of contradiction in one small ambiguous commandment, wouldn't you agree?

Is it something else? Educate me in the ways of YOUR GOD, please!
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472716 wrote: Just an observation. Of no more or less significance than the post to which it was a response.

Another observation: You spend much time presuming a lot about people whom you know nothing about.

And a question: Are you lashing out at the demons, or is this merely a cultural adaptation to the things your parents taught you.What I know about people on forums is what they post, and, for better or worse, I mostly assume they are honest in their posting. There are, of course, exceptions to that, and I do try to steer clear of such individuals once their validity is tested and proven to be lacking.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
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Post by flopstock »

flopstock;1472410 wrote: So I got this book through an audible site so that I can listen to it while doing the treadmill. figured I'd read it before seeing the movie/

Have any of you read this? Are any of you reading it?

Any thoughts you like to share/discuss?

I'm an Airforce mom and my inclination is generally Rah - Rah USA... but the beginning of this book kinda creeps me out.


So .. I'll be driving for a coupe of hours each way today and should be able to listen to several more chapters (hope he doesn't spend as much time giving me gun details - lol) into this book. So far, I'm imagining the movie is a lot different, considering how many seemed to have liked it..
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Post by Snooz »

I get the impression they portray him in the movie as a man torn apart by the horrors he's seen versus the enjoyment he gets from shooting people the real guy claims in his book. I've heard people defending him by saying he had to have that mindset to survive but really? Some of the passages from the book make him sound like a very happy sociopath that found his calling in life.

Bradley Cooper looks great with the added bulk though so I might watch it for him.
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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1472718 wrote: So that would be a: "No, I won't because I can't, though I will, in the mean time, hide behind some defensive posturing until the subject changes."? You made an argument, now defend it. This is a discussion forum where values, opinions and (dare I say) notions are exchanged, shared and proven/disproved.
I see no reason to justify myself, or my beliefs, to the likes of you. You do nothing but attack others and their point of view (Correct that: Your perception of their point of view.)

You do not seem to have a desire for open discussion.



Ahso!;1472718 wrote:

How about we try this route:

- Is it that Moses just didn't have the dictation skills or time to get the commandment down on the stone accurately? And Why would God allow that to occur in such a vital conversation?

- Perhaps God forgot to specify "humans" in the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" commandment? Or maybe God figured we were all smart enough to get the assumption right? But then God also claims that man cannot know the mind of God, no? Seemingly lots of contradiction in one small ambiguous commandment, wouldn't you agree?

Is it something else? Educate me in the ways of YOUR GOD, please!
Nope. Moses got it right.

I will tell you that I have not gone hunting for a very long time. That does not mean I was not taught how.



Ahso!;1472719 wrote: What I know about people on forums is what they post, and, for better or worse, I mostly assume they are honest in their posting. There are, of course, exceptions to that, and I do try to steer clear of such individuals once their validity is tested and proven to be lacking.


You read what others post, filter it through your own perspective, and react to the the interpretation with as much spite as you can muster, trying to annoy them into reacting to you in like manner, so you can play out a battle of wits with them and show your command of the language.

Sorry, I outgrew such games a while back. You win. Play on.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
― Greg Bear, Darwin's Children
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472730 wrote: I see no reason to justify myself, or my beliefs, to the likes of you. You do nothing but attack others and their point of view (Correct that: Your perception of their point of view.)

You do not seem to have a desire for open discussion.



Nope. Moses got it right.

I will tell you that I have not gone hunting for a very long time. That does not mean I was not taught how.





You read what others post, filter it through your own perspective, and react to the the interpretation with as much spite as you can muster, trying to annoy them into reacting to you in like manner, so you can play out a battle of wits with them and show your command of the language.

Sorry, I outgrew such games a while back. You win. Play on.Seriously, LM? You kind of do since it's the foundation of your justification and argument - otherwise you sound like Pahu. I'll offer an example:

LarsMac;1472433 wrote: As I said before, you made the statement. The task is yours to do prove your point

Pahu;1472437 wrote: Why should I do your work for you? If you are really interested in the answer you will follow my instructions. Otherwise, admit you are not really interested in the answer.[...]Ahso!;1472715 wrote: And yet advocate hunting and fishing? Square that for me, would you.
LarsMac;1472717 wrote: For me, I have it squared. You have to work out your own dilemma.See the resemblance?

With Pahu you deride him for not offering empirical evidence and in this thread you're invoking Gods, demons and even divinely guided lightning bolts?

I'm just trying to make sense of it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1472733 wrote: Seriously, LM? You kind of do since it's the foundation of your justification and argument - otherwise you sound like Pahu. I'll offer an example:

[...]

See the resemblance?

With Pahu you deride him for not offering empirical evidence and in this thread you're invoking Gods, demons and even divinely guided lightning bolts?

I'm just trying to make sense of it.


So, where did I "advocate hunting and fishing?"

I merely stated that my parents taught me to do that. You prove my previous argument for me. Thank you.

I live by my moral standards, and I do not judge other people by my standards. I try to not even judge them by their own moral standards. My God also said, "Judge not, lest you be judged."

I have probably, over the course of my life, broken at least 9 of the ten commandments, and I will stand and face whatever judgment may come from my God or whatever judge he sees fit to employ, but I am fairly confident that that judge is not going to be you.

What I post here are my own personal opinions, and observations filtered through my own perceptions. I make no more of them than that. Most people here do the same, but some people do seem to think themselves and their opinions are of far more importance to the fabric of the universe than they really are.



I'm just here to have fun, and occasionally share some space in the light.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
― Greg Bear, Darwin's Children
Ahso!
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Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1472735 wrote: So, where did I "advocate hunting and fishing?" I never said you did, I was careful not to. I was speaking of the philosophical perspective that comes from religious teaching and upbringing.

LarsMac;1472735 wrote: I merely stated that my parents taught me to do that.and that is the context of which my question was posed.

LarsMac;1472735 wrote: I live by my moral standards, and I do not judge other people by my standards. I try to not even judge them by their own moral standards. My God also said, "Judge not, lest you be judged."

I have probably, over the course of my life, broken at least 9 of the ten commandments, and I will stand and face whatever judgment may come from my God or whatever judge he sees fit to employ, but I am fairly confident that that judge is not going to be you.

What I post here are my own personal opinions, and observations filtered through my own perceptions. I make no more of them than that. Most people here do the same, but some people do seem to think themselves and their opinions are of far more importance to the fabric of the universe than they really are.



I'm just here to have fun, and occasionally share some space in the light.Seriously, Dude, it's not necessary to explain yourself. I think I've gotten enough of a taste of you throughout the years here. I engage you because I enjoy reading what you write, though sometimes we challenge or inquire what's meant in any certain discussion. There's no need to become defensive about that. If one invokes God and religion in a discussion I assume there's a reason for it and so I ask. If that happens to become a separate topic then so be it.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple

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