Forever War by Joe Haldeman
The Last good SF book I read was The Forever War by Joe Haldeman. Joe wrote the FW after coming back from Vietnam as a Combat Soldier. The FW is one of those books that, I believe, we will see less and less of. It is a SF, but its greatest impact is social commentary. In fact, when Joe wrote it after the war (Vietnam), it was immediately published and did very well. It was read by a large number of mainstream readers and has been highly regarded ever since. In fact, up until recently, the book was missing two original chapters that the publisher thought would offend people at the time (see John Kerry in front of Congress in the 70's). Joe landed a job at MIT teaching creative writing.
When I started FW, I was not too impressed. Joe writes like Hemingway, in short declarative sentences. What kept me reading was the content. There are several unique things about this book: The drudgery and lethality of boot-camp, women in combat, the free sexual relations between the soldiers, the fact that we never see or understand the enemy, and finally, through time-dilation, we experience the absurdity of war in a way that reminded me of All's Quite on the Western Front.
By the time I'd finished FW, I'd gone from not impressed, to emotionally moved. I wrote to Joe and congratulated him on the FW, a high point, socially relevant addition to outstanding SF.
Forever War
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
I read this back when it first came out. Why do you think it's one of those books you will se less and less off?
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Because of media consolidation, and because the science fiction brand has, since Star Wars, become something that mainstream readers don't, in general, frequent. When FW first came out, it was rejected 18 times because publishers and agents said nobody wanted to read a SF that reminded people of Vietnam. And that was before consolidation. Now big publishers are so risk-adverse that unless the author has a name that sells, they will not publish an intelligent SF that deals with topical issues. Most SF is young-adult techno-fantasy which has driven mainstream readers away.
Along with my book Proteus Rising, which is societal SF, I've published several good speculative fiction books by new authors in an attempt to keep the tradition alive.
Along with my book Proteus Rising, which is societal SF, I've published several good speculative fiction books by new authors in an attempt to keep the tradition alive.
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
On the other hand SF is becoming more and more popular, star wars for all it's critics helped rekindle interest in the genre. There would possibly have been no alien or blade runner for instance without it. There's plenty of other SF around with sf and fantasy being amongst the biggest sections in most bookshops. We have a national chains of bookshops that are sf only and do rather well for themselves. There's plenty of good sf around and a lot of new writers like Peter Hamilton or Iain banks so I can't say I agree the last decent sf book was written in the seventies.
http://www.twbooks.co.uk/authors/petercrowther.html
Since most SF fans tend to be also computer literate maybe internet publishing will give more scope for new writers.
I'm ambivalent about fantasy having never really acquired the taste but like some of it. I'm fairly eclectic in my tastes and will read anything I find interesting.
i haven't read Proteus Rising but would have a look at it my curiosity piqued by this post. So are you Dr. Peter Dingus or the publisher?
http://www.twbooks.co.uk/authors/petercrowther.html
Since most SF fans tend to be also computer literate maybe internet publishing will give more scope for new writers.
I'm ambivalent about fantasy having never really acquired the taste but like some of it. I'm fairly eclectic in my tastes and will read anything I find interesting.
i haven't read Proteus Rising but would have a look at it my curiosity piqued by this post. So are you Dr. Peter Dingus or the publisher?
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
I am the author of Proteus. Both Banks and Hamilton have been around for a while--i don't consider them new writers. I think of Star Wars as space fantasy, not really SF. Lucas agrees, those are his words. Also, Blade Runner and Alien are movies, not written SF. Blade Runner was due to PK Dick--an old timer. Most of what's in bookstores today is fantasy, many of the old time SF authors are leaving the genre like Benford and Bear. What I am most interested in is topical SF that is more than just bang-bang entertainment. SF like that of Clarke, Lem, Orwell, etc. I'm not saying that relevant SF that works on several levels should define the genre, but it should be part of it--today is really isn't. Books like The Forever War would be almost impossible to publish through a US corporate publisher today. And web publishing still cannot compete with the corporate marketing machine. As time goes on, fewer and fewer readers are looking to SF for anything more than chapter comic books, I'm sad to say.
You can download the first 4 chapts of Proteus at: Proteus
You can download the first 4 chapts of Proteus at: Proteus
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Specfiction;756980 wrote: I am the author of Proteus. Both Banks and Hamilton have been around for a while--i don't consider them new writers. I think of Star Wars as space fantasy, not really SF. Lucas agrees, those are his words. Also, Blade Runner and Alien are movies, not written SF. Blade Runner was due to PK Dick--an old timer. Most of what's in bookstores today is fantasy, many of the old time SF authors are leaving the genre like Benford and Bear. What I am most interested in is topical SF that is more than just bang-bang entertainment. SF like that of Clarke, Lem, Orwell, etc. I'm not saying that relevant SF that works on several levels should define the genre, but it should be part of it--today is really isn't. Books like The Forever War would be almost impossible to publish through a US corporate publisher today. And web publishing still cannot compete with the corporate marketing machine. As time goes on, fewer and fewer readers are looking to SF for anything more than chapter comic books, I'm sad to say.
You can download the first 4 chapts of Proteus at: Proteus
Still a generation after Joe Haldeman though. Thanks for the link I'll have a read later.
Can't say I've ever seen the appeal of comic books-was always a peculiarly american phenomenon IMO. British comics were very different from american ones and aimed primarily at children. Can't say in agree with your dire prognosis each generation throws up it's classics and you could put a good case that sci fi is shaping the world we live in. Just have a look at your star trek communicator. Without the dreamers the modern world wouldn't exist as we kmow it.
You can download the first 4 chapts of Proteus at: Proteus
Still a generation after Joe Haldeman though. Thanks for the link I'll have a read later.
Can't say I've ever seen the appeal of comic books-was always a peculiarly american phenomenon IMO. British comics were very different from american ones and aimed primarily at children. Can't say in agree with your dire prognosis each generation throws up it's classics and you could put a good case that sci fi is shaping the world we live in. Just have a look at your star trek communicator. Without the dreamers the modern world wouldn't exist as we kmow it.
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
I'm often amused at how often I hear this association between Star Trek, communicators, and cell phones. People really are impressed by that. Let me give you my brief spin. First, ST was a great show, but it was TV/Movie, not a book (originally). Second, I've worked in cell phone R&D. Clever stuff, no doubt, but the real miracle is Marconi et al. Imagine communications with no wire--it didn't have to be (perhaps the universe would not permit it--but it did--that's the thing to be impressed by). Also, 10,000 years after people burned coal for energy, guess what, they're still doing it. The cornerstone of civilization is its ability to generate large amounts of energy--we're still burning fossil fuels, in a dirty way, I might add. I'm not impressed.
As you pointed out, SF can be a cultural asset. It's not an accident they called the first atomic submarine the Nautilus. And it's not an accident that they credit Clarke with com satellites. It's not clear whether our sense-of-wonder is dying, thus SF is insipid, or if we are insipid and SF is dying.
As you pointed out, SF can be a cultural asset. It's not an accident they called the first atomic submarine the Nautilus. And it's not an accident that they credit Clarke with com satellites. It's not clear whether our sense-of-wonder is dying, thus SF is insipid, or if we are insipid and SF is dying.
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Specfiction;757211 wrote: I'm often amused at how often I hear this association between Star Trek, communicators, and cell phones. People really are impressed by that. Let me give you my brief spin. First, ST was a great show, but it was TV/Movie, not a book (originally). Second, I've worked in cell phone R&D. Clever stuff, no doubt, but the real miracle is Marconi et al. Imagine communications with no wire--it didn't have to be (perhaps the universe would not permit it--but it did--that's the thing to be impressed by). Also, 10,000 years after people burned coal for energy, guess what, they're still doing it. The cornerstone of civilization is its ability to generate large amounts of energy--we're still burning fossil fuels, in a dirty way, I might add. I'm not impressed.
As you pointed out, SF can be a cultural asset. It's not an accident they called the first atomic submarine the Nautilus. And it's not an accident that they credit Clarke with com satellites. It's not clear whether our sense-of-wonder is dying, thus SF is insipid, or if we are insipid and SF is dying.
Why so derogatory? TV shows nowadays are more influential than books. If they get interest in reading up or generate interest in a partuicular genre I am all in favour. Many of the script writers were leading SF authors of their day. James Blish, Robert Bloch are just two I can remember off the top of my head. The first film was crap because they tried to make a worthy film full of relevant social comment. The problem is too many of those who run studios see it as a business and don;t just want to tell good stories like the early pioneers did. They don'y like what they do just do it to make money.
SF isn't dying it's just changing. It's demise has been forecast on numerous occasions. At least now it's not looked down on so much as it used to be.
Incidentally the burning of coal did not become commonplace until the middle ages once we ran out of trees to burn.
As you pointed out, SF can be a cultural asset. It's not an accident they called the first atomic submarine the Nautilus. And it's not an accident that they credit Clarke with com satellites. It's not clear whether our sense-of-wonder is dying, thus SF is insipid, or if we are insipid and SF is dying.
Why so derogatory? TV shows nowadays are more influential than books. If they get interest in reading up or generate interest in a partuicular genre I am all in favour. Many of the script writers were leading SF authors of their day. James Blish, Robert Bloch are just two I can remember off the top of my head. The first film was crap because they tried to make a worthy film full of relevant social comment. The problem is too many of those who run studios see it as a business and don;t just want to tell good stories like the early pioneers did. They don'y like what they do just do it to make money.
SF isn't dying it's just changing. It's demise has been forecast on numerous occasions. At least now it's not looked down on so much as it used to be.
Incidentally the burning of coal did not become commonplace until the middle ages once we ran out of trees to burn.
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
From Wikipedia:
"A 120,000-year-old Stone Age coalstone hunting camp was discovered in 2005 by archaelogists in an opencast coalstone mine in Germany, its first known use being campfire cooking fuel for German hunters.[3] China Coal Information Institute reports the Chinese mined coalstone for fuel since 10,000 years ago at the time of the New Stone Age, or Neolithic Era."
I've been talking about books not TV or Movies. It is a personal POV whether books present a deeper, important forum for ideas. True, things are changing. But it is my POV that the contribution of (fiction) books to what I call "the culture of science" is dying. If you think I might have a point, support small efforts like mine to keep the availability of material marketers overlook because of their priorities and (lack of) culture alive. The people, in general, will vote with their pocketbooks and what they're willing to support. I'm just trying to put my money and effort where my mouth is.
"A 120,000-year-old Stone Age coalstone hunting camp was discovered in 2005 by archaelogists in an opencast coalstone mine in Germany, its first known use being campfire cooking fuel for German hunters.[3] China Coal Information Institute reports the Chinese mined coalstone for fuel since 10,000 years ago at the time of the New Stone Age, or Neolithic Era."
I've been talking about books not TV or Movies. It is a personal POV whether books present a deeper, important forum for ideas. True, things are changing. But it is my POV that the contribution of (fiction) books to what I call "the culture of science" is dying. If you think I might have a point, support small efforts like mine to keep the availability of material marketers overlook because of their priorities and (lack of) culture alive. The people, in general, will vote with their pocketbooks and what they're willing to support. I'm just trying to put my money and effort where my mouth is.
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Specfiction;757545 wrote: From Wikipedia:
"A 120,000-year-old Stone Age coalstone hunting camp was discovered in 2005 by archaelogists in an opencast coalstone mine in Germany, its first known use being campfire cooking fuel for German hunters.[3] China Coal Information Institute reports the Chinese mined coalstone for fuel since 10,000 years ago at the time of the New Stone Age, or Neolithic Era."
I've been talking about books not TV or Movies. It is a personal POV whether books present a deeper, important forum for ideas. True, things are changing. But it is my POV that the contribution of (fiction) books to what I call "the culture of science" is dying. If you think I might have a point, support small efforts like mine to keep the availability of material marketers overlook because of their priorities and (lack of) culture alive. The people, in general, will vote with their pocketbooks and what they're willing to support. I'm just trying to put my money and effort where my mouth is.
I did say it only became commonplace in the middle ages not that it hadn't happened prior to that. You have to have a good economic reason to start industrial mining of the stuff not having enough wood is a good incentive.
As to books and the internet-they all go together, you have to be literate to use a computer as a bare minimum. As a likely impact on civilisation iy is arguably as great as or greater than the printing press itself was. Look where that led. It's the sharing of ideas and being able to propagate tham that matter not the how you do it.
If anything the internet should give you access to a wider international market than the old publishing houses method used to. The culture is changing not dying IMO. It's the same with the music industry-record companies have to adapt to the way things are or they will die. Music won't just the record companies.
"A 120,000-year-old Stone Age coalstone hunting camp was discovered in 2005 by archaelogists in an opencast coalstone mine in Germany, its first known use being campfire cooking fuel for German hunters.[3] China Coal Information Institute reports the Chinese mined coalstone for fuel since 10,000 years ago at the time of the New Stone Age, or Neolithic Era."
I've been talking about books not TV or Movies. It is a personal POV whether books present a deeper, important forum for ideas. True, things are changing. But it is my POV that the contribution of (fiction) books to what I call "the culture of science" is dying. If you think I might have a point, support small efforts like mine to keep the availability of material marketers overlook because of their priorities and (lack of) culture alive. The people, in general, will vote with their pocketbooks and what they're willing to support. I'm just trying to put my money and effort where my mouth is.
I did say it only became commonplace in the middle ages not that it hadn't happened prior to that. You have to have a good economic reason to start industrial mining of the stuff not having enough wood is a good incentive.
As to books and the internet-they all go together, you have to be literate to use a computer as a bare minimum. As a likely impact on civilisation iy is arguably as great as or greater than the printing press itself was. Look where that led. It's the sharing of ideas and being able to propagate tham that matter not the how you do it.
If anything the internet should give you access to a wider international market than the old publishing houses method used to. The culture is changing not dying IMO. It's the same with the music industry-record companies have to adapt to the way things are or they will die. Music won't just the record companies.
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
I'm saying that the way we generate energy today has not changed for 10k years, and it hasn't--I'm not impressed. But that's me. If people are impressed by gadgets, so be it. In terms of our civilization, we seem to be most impressed by things that matter least, we've always loved mirrors, bobbles, and shiny things.
I stand by my assessment of the book (media) industry and the importance of the written word, whether it be in print or on the internet. As you can see from what I'm doing that is my POV.
I stand by my assessment of the book (media) industry and the importance of the written word, whether it be in print or on the internet. As you can see from what I'm doing that is my POV.
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Specfiction;757559 wrote: I saying that the way we generate energy today has not changed for 10k years, and it hasn't--I'm not impressed. But that's me. If people are impressed by gadgets, so be it. In terms of our civilization, we seem to be most impressed by things that matter least.
I stand by my assessment of the book (media) industry and the importance of the written word, whether it be in print or on the internet. As you can see from what I'm doing that is my POV.
Actually your web site looks interesting, quite a good idea. I think basically we generally agree but I don't see the internet as meaning the end of books, if anything it should generate an awful lot more interest. The written word is declining in importance rather the reverse IMO.
Sadly in the UK some councils are cutting back on library services-However the more innovative ones embrace the new technology-my local library is busier than it had been in recent years since they introduced wifi for those who want it and free access to terminals for those that don't have their own computers.
Nuclear power is relatively new. so is hydro electric although I suppose the hydro bit is old style power generation. Oil fired power stations are relatively new as well, as is gas powered. Although I suppose you could argue oil and gas were used for lighting in ancient times. They didn't have geo-thermal energy either back in the day.
Books are only one of a growing forums for the sharing of ideas.
It is a personal POV whether books present a deeper, important forum for ideas. True, things are changing. But it is my POV that the contribution of (fiction) books to what I call "the culture of science" is dying. If you think I might have a point, support small efforts like mine to keep the availability of material marketers overlook because of their priorities and (lack of) culture alive.
Any forum for ideas is good IMO. Books by their very nature shut out a lot of people. If because of a film, TV programme or an internet visitation someone who would not have picked up a book before does so having had their curiosity tweaked them all to the good. Who knows they might go on to read another then another.
I stand by my assessment of the book (media) industry and the importance of the written word, whether it be in print or on the internet. As you can see from what I'm doing that is my POV.
Actually your web site looks interesting, quite a good idea. I think basically we generally agree but I don't see the internet as meaning the end of books, if anything it should generate an awful lot more interest. The written word is declining in importance rather the reverse IMO.
Sadly in the UK some councils are cutting back on library services-However the more innovative ones embrace the new technology-my local library is busier than it had been in recent years since they introduced wifi for those who want it and free access to terminals for those that don't have their own computers.
Nuclear power is relatively new. so is hydro electric although I suppose the hydro bit is old style power generation. Oil fired power stations are relatively new as well, as is gas powered. Although I suppose you could argue oil and gas were used for lighting in ancient times. They didn't have geo-thermal energy either back in the day.
Books are only one of a growing forums for the sharing of ideas.
It is a personal POV whether books present a deeper, important forum for ideas. True, things are changing. But it is my POV that the contribution of (fiction) books to what I call "the culture of science" is dying. If you think I might have a point, support small efforts like mine to keep the availability of material marketers overlook because of their priorities and (lack of) culture alive.
Any forum for ideas is good IMO. Books by their very nature shut out a lot of people. If because of a film, TV programme or an internet visitation someone who would not have picked up a book before does so having had their curiosity tweaked them all to the good. Who knows they might go on to read another then another.
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Specfiction
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Forever War by Joe Haldeman
We definitely agree, although I find the statement: "Books by their very nature shut out a lot of people." very scary--why should books shut anyone out--quite the contrary. For books you need no tech infrastructure, no power, no equipment--you only need to read. If culture is degraded to the point where people can't read a book, all is lost.
Also, my point is that big-corp marketing has dictated the atmosphere to the extent that may times people wouldn't even try something unless it comes from big-media. Many times if I suggest a book I've published, or my own book, on the net, at best people ignore it, at worse they consider my mentioning it spam. Then they go on and talk about (promote) a book by big media as though that's something different. The music world on the net has been much more creative and accepting.
BTW, read my posts on nuclear energy on:Nuclear
Also, my point is that big-corp marketing has dictated the atmosphere to the extent that may times people wouldn't even try something unless it comes from big-media. Many times if I suggest a book I've published, or my own book, on the net, at best people ignore it, at worse they consider my mentioning it spam. Then they go on and talk about (promote) a book by big media as though that's something different. The music world on the net has been much more creative and accepting.
BTW, read my posts on nuclear energy on:Nuclear
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Specfiction;757592 wrote: We definitely agree, although I find the statement: "Books by their very nature shut out a lot of people." very scary--why should books shut anyone out--quite the contrary. For books you need no tech infrastructure, no power, no equipment--you only need to read. If culture is degraded to the point where people can't read a book, all is lost.
Also, my point is that big-corp marketing has dictated the atmosphere to the extent that may times people wouldn't even try something unless it comes from big-media. Many times if I suggest a book I've published, or my own book, on the net, at best people ignore it, at worse they consider my mentioning it spam. Then they go on and talk about (promote) a book by big media as though that's something different. The music world on the net has been much more creative and accepting.
BTW, read my posts on nuclear energy on:Nuclear
I think if you are not introduced to the habit of reading early on starting to read a lot can be quite intimidating. I just don't see things as being as bleak as you make out. Different culture in the UK perhaps.
Also, my point is that big-corp marketing has dictated the atmosphere to the extent that may times people wouldn't even try something unless it comes from big-media. Many times if I suggest a book I've published, or my own book, on the net, at best people ignore it, at worse they consider my mentioning it spam. Then they go on and talk about (promote) a book by big media as though that's something different. The music world on the net has been much more creative and accepting.
BTW, read my posts on nuclear energy on:Nuclear
I think if you are not introduced to the habit of reading early on starting to read a lot can be quite intimidating. I just don't see things as being as bleak as you make out. Different culture in the UK perhaps.