US- the religion police

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RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

Either we butt in or we don't do enough. Why does the world think it can have both ways?



U.S. ignores religious oppression, federal panel says


  • Story Highlights

  • Commission names 11 countries it says State Department should identify

  • China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan named with Iran, North Korea

  • Others are Eritrea, Myanmar, Sudan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Vietnam

  • Panel says it's also concerned about religious freedom in Iraq
(CNN) -- China, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are among 11 countries that practice religious oppression, a federal commission says.

Nevertheless, the U.S. State Department hasn't designated or re-designated those nations as "countries of particular concern," the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedoms said Friday.

The other eight countries cited are Eritrea, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea, Sudan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Vietnam.

"In the past year, violent government repression of religious communities in China, Burma (known as Myanmar), and Sudan, among other countries, confirms that religious freedom is [a] vulnerable human right that must be protected by the international community," Commission Chairman Michael Cromartie said in a press release.

The 1998 International Religious Freedom Act requires the United States to identify "countries whose governments have engaged in or tolerated systematic and egregious violations of the universal right to freedom of religion or belief."

The act created the federal panel that annually surveys world religious freedom and gives recommendations to the president, secretary of state and Congress. The law allows policy responses to listed countries, such as sanctions.

The commission said it is troubled that the State Department has not made any designations or redesignations since 2006, even though it issued a report on religious freedom in September.

"While IRFA does not set a specific deadline for the [countries of particular concern] designations, the fact that those designations are based on that review indicates that they should be made in a timely way thereafter," the committee said in a report.

The group said the inaction "may send the unfortunate signal that the U.S. government is not sufficiently committed to the IRFA process, including by seeking improvements from the most severe religious freedom violators."

State Department spokesman Tom Casey responded that "the commission is an independent body, and we certainly respect their views and look closely at the recommendations that they make as we go about implementing the religious freedom legislation and go about preparing both the country reports as well as establishing those countries that should be listed as countries of particular concern."

Myanmar, China, Eritrea, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Uzbekistan are on the latest State Department list, prepared in November 2006. The panel recommends adding Vietnam, which had been removed from the last listing, as well as Pakistan and Turkmenistan.

Vietnam was removed from the list, Casey said, "because Vietnam has addressed the central issues that we believed constituted severe violations of religious freedom, and they continue to make improvements on those.

"At this point we believe that, while there are certainly still a number of issues in terms of religious freedom in Vietnam, that the actions that the Vietnamese government has taken to address some of our concerns makes them a country that does not merit being included on the CPC, or the countries of particular concern list," he said.

The commission made these observations.


  • Myanmar: "Directed increasing repression at ethnic and religious minorities, democracy activists, and international humanitarian agencies over the past year." The crackdown on September demonstrations by Buddhist monks was cited.

  • China: "Severe crackdowns targeting Tibetan Buddhists, Uighur Muslims, 'underground' Roman Catholics, 'house church' Protestants, and various spiritual movements such as Falun Gong continue unabated."

  • Sudan: Pursued "coercive policies of Arabization and Islamization resulting in genocide" in the Darfur region and imposed severe restrictions on religious freedom and other human rights. Christians and followers of local religions have been victimized in a decades-long North-South war.

  • Iran: Baha'is, Sufi Muslims and evangelical Christians "face relentless arrests, imprisonment, and harassment." Fears among Iran's Jews have grown due to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's repeated denials of the Holocaust and other anti-Semitic statements.

  • Eritrea: There have been "arbitrary arrests and detention without charge of members of unregistered religious groups, and the torture or other ill-treatment of hundreds of persons on account of their religion, sometimes resulting in death."

  • North Korea: No "protections for universal human rights, including religious freedom," and religion is perceived as a security threat.

  • Saudi Arabia: "Serious violations of freedom of religion ... by banning all forms of public religious expression other than that of the government's own interpretation of one school of Sunni Islam and by interfering with private religious practice. "

  • Uzbekistan: Muslims arrested, groups repressed, mosques closed, targeting groups "that do not conform to government-prescribed practices or that it alleges to be associated with extremist political programs."

  • Vietnam: "Severe religious freedom restrictions targeting some ethnic minority Protestants and Buddhists, Vietnamese Mennonites, Hoa Hao Buddhists, and monks and nuns associated with the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam."

  • Pakistan: Sectarian and religiously motivated violence continues, particularly against Shiite Muslims, Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus. The government's response remains "inadequate."

  • Turkmenistan: "Significant religious freedom problems and official harassment of religious adherents persist." Registered and unregistered religious groups harassed.The commission also issued a watch list that names Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Belarus, Cuba, Egypt, Indonesia and Nigeria.

    The panel said it remains "seriously concerned" about religious freedom in Iraq.

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Post by Accountable »

What? The US didn't make the list?? :rolleyes:
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Pheasy
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Post by Pheasy »

Changing the subject slightly. I do have to say that when I first came to the States I was surprised by how many people were religious - much bigger here that in England. But then, not so long afterwards, I realised that most were there for the wrong reasons, and the others were a little extreme (remember I only have only experienced my area - before you all shoot me) :D

Please note: I DID NOT say all of them.
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Post by RedGlitter »

I didn't say it was US against anything, RJ. I am complaining that the WORLD gripes about us being the "world police" yet now we're not doing enough to help other countries with their religious freedom. PishPosh. They can't have it both ways.
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Post by RedGlitter »

rjwould;855813 wrote: My point is that the "WORLD" does not gripe, some influential people and organizations do......Who gives a sh!t what those people say?



I'm not so sure about that RJ. I mean just as an example take this forum. Just since you've been a member, how much animosity toward the US have you seen from non American members? Ok, only some have animosity so I'll rephrase that- how much annoyance or distaste toward the US have you picked up on? They would have us believe that all the rest of the world wants us to "know our place" yet that same world will expect us to fix its problems because we're always getting into something. Now it's religion- why should the US even have to fight for someone else's religious freedom? Aside from the fact that it's good for humanity, why should we have to?

By the way, FG was only an example. I have friends in several countries and their attitude is also what I described.
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Post by Chookie »

RedGlitter;855807 wrote: I didn't say it was US against anything, RJ. I am complaining that the WORLD gripes about us being the "world police"



So, can you produce one reason why should you be the "world police"?



RedGlitter;855807 wrote: yet now we're not doing enough to help other countries with their religious freedom



Why the hell should the US "help" other countries with religious anything? Religion is, surely a personal thing.



RedGlitter;855807 wrote: PishPosh. They can't have it both ways.



Neither can BushCo.

Unfortunately Terri, you seem to be arguing from the Imperialist position beloved of the British Empire (we know better than you, so do what your told).
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Post by Pheasy »

RedGlitter;855836 wrote: I'm not so sure about that RJ. I mean just as an example take this forum. Just since you've been a member, how much animosity toward the US have you seen from non American members? Ok, only some have animosity so I'll rephrase that- how much annoyance or distaste toward the US have you picked up on? They would have us believe that all the rest of the world wants us to "know our place" yet that same world will expect us to fix its problems because we're always getting into something. Now it's religion- why should the US even have to fight for someone else's religious freedom? Aside from the fact that it's good for humanity, why should we have to?

By the way, FG was only an example. I have friends in several countries and their attitude is also what I described.



Thats not how I feel .. I think the reverse, I think the US should stay out of things a little more ... I certainly don't expect the US to put everything right.

IMO the US thinks they should step in, more than the rest of the world does.
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Chookie
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Post by Chookie »

Pheasy;855849 wrote: IMO the US thinks they should step in, more than the rest of the world do.



That's true............
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Post by gmc »

RedGlitter;855807 wrote: I didn't say it was US against anything, RJ. I am complaining that the WORLD gripes about us being the "world police" yet now we're not doing enough to help other countries with their religious freedom. PishPosh. They can't have it both ways.



Actually it's not the world that's complaining. From your article

U.S. ignores religious oppression, federal panel says



the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedoms said Friday.




The rest of the world probably hasn't heard of the US commission on international religious freedoms and cares even less what they have to say on the matter.
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Post by Pheasy »

Chookie;855854 wrote: That's true............



I would go as far as saying (having lived in the UK and seen how far things can go), I wish they wouldn't, it would make me feel safer.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Ack. I tried to multiple quote but what a mess I made!

Okay first, in case anybody feels I stepped on their toes, it wasn't intentional. I did not bring this here as a "US against the World" thing. I posted it because I keep hearing about how US butts in to everything and how unwanted we are, yet this article says we aren't doing enough to "help" other countries with their religions. It irritated me because no matter what we do, someone says we're wrong.

RJ, no I don't believe it is just my perception. I've been hearing about it for a good nine years and that is just coming from good friends of mine. I chose FG as an example because this is the forum I'm at most.

I am not separating US from the rest of the world as you say, RJ, but in this context I needed to phrase it as I did because I think it's more a case of the World against US.

Chookie asks why should we be the world police? Indeed why. Can't other countries do for themselves? Do we always have to help or try to help or even just be there?

I do hear a lot of "we don't need your help" like from my Canadian friend but then after she got done watching Hotel Rwanda she demanded to know why the US didn't do something about it. That's what I mean by having it both ways. Either you want us or you don't.

Chookie asks why US should help any country with religion and I agree. However if the people in that country are not permitted to practice their choice of religion, should we step in or leave it be?

Chookie, I don't quite understand what you meant by Imperialist position and do what you're told...I'm not trying to argue with anyone. Unless maybe you meant that the US has that attitude? If that's what you meant I can appreciate that. I do see that in our government and Bush at times.

Pheasy said she thinks the US steps in more often than what others would like. That could be. I know I for one would like my country to take care of our own hungry and homeless for a change instead of giving aid to others. Does that make me heartless? Charity starts at home supposedly, so where is it?
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Post by Pheasy »

RedGlitter;855864 wrote: Ack. I tried to multiple quote but what a mess I made!

Okay first, in case anybody feels I stepped on their toes, it wasn't intentional. I did not bring this here as a "US against the World" thing. I posted it because I keep hearing about how US butts in to everything and how unwanted we are, yet this article says we aren't doing enough to "help" other countries with their religions. It irritated me because no matter what we do, someone says we're wrong.

RJ, no I don't believe it is just my perception. I've been hearing about it for a good nine years and that is just coming from good friends of mine. I chose FG as an example because this is the forum I'm at most.

I am not separating US from the rest of the world as you say, RJ, but in this context I needed to phrase it as I did because I think it's more a case of the World against US.

Chookie asks why should we be the world police? Indeed why. Can't other countries do for themselves? Do we always have to help or try to help or even just be there?

I do hear a lot of "we don't need your help" like from my Canadian friend but then after she got done watching Hotel Rwanda she demanded to know why the US didn't do something about it. That's what I mean by having it both ways. Either you want us or you don't.

Chookie asks why US should help any country with religion and I agree. However if the people in that country are not permitted to practice their choice of religion, should we step in or leave it be?

Chookie, I don't quite understand what you meant by Imperialist position and do what you're told...I'm not trying to argue with anyone. Unless maybe you meant that the US has that attitude? If that's what you meant I can appreciate that. I do see that in our government and Bush at times.

Pheasy said she thinks the US steps in more often than what others would like. That could be. I know I for one would like my country to take care of our own hungry and homeless for a change instead of giving aid to others. Does that make me heartless? Charity starts at home supposedly, so where is it?



My fears are for the USA and the outcome of too much interference. But I agree here Terri, you have to look after your own. :-6
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Post by Chookie »

RedGlitter;855864 wrote: Chookie, I don't quite understand what you meant by Imperialist position and do what you're told...I'm not trying to argue with anyone. Unless maybe you meant that the US has that attitude? If that's what you meant I can appreciate that. I do see that in our government and Bush at times.



That's exactly what I meant and it's a very widespread concept. I've had it suggested to me on other forums that the British empire was a civilising influence. I thought that was utter bullshit, but the British empire did not exist in the age of the internet.
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RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

Okay that's fair. Do you guys have issues with the US citizens or just with our government? When this kind of subject comes up, I and others tend to have a kneejerk reaction to it, as if other countries are insulting our "mother." Or us individual citizens personally. That's why we get emotional about it. For me personally I cannot apologize enough for Bush and things our government does but I don't feel I have done anything. At least I never voted him in. :o
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Post by Pheasy »

This is just my feeling on stuff. Look at the UK, that diddy little island, what made us strong? We looked after our own, built up strength, and are ready for anyone who wants to take us. We never tried to impress the world with our power, we just stood strong.

I worry for the USA, especially as I now live here, you think 911 was bad? If the USA carrys on the way things are going, thats nothing ... its going to get a whole lot nastier. It really scares me how this is going. Back up, look after your own, and show the rest of the world thats how its going to be .. leave them alone, they will respect your strength as you are united. Stop making enemies and respect other countries.
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Post by Chookie »

RedGlitter;855875 wrote: Okay that's fair. Do you guys have issues with the US citizens or just with our government? When this kind of subject comes up, I and others tend to have a kneejerk reaction to it, as if other countries are insulting our "mother."



No Terri, it's your government we have issues with.
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Post by RedGlitter »

rjwould;855879 wrote: You voted for Kerry and Gore, Red?



No....I didn't care for either of them.

I'll try to take into consideration what you said RJ, and see if I notice anything. But to be honest, I don't see very much difference between it all being my perception or just some of it, but we'll see. By the same token, I am not always crystal clear in my posts so if you don't understand me or aren't sure what I mean, don't hesitate to ask me to clarify.

My opinion on the religion issue would be No. I( don't feel the US needs to do anything because some people may be religiously persecuted. That may be callous of me, but it's how I feel it should be handled.

Your point about my Canadian friend being just one person and I shouldn't judge them all based on her opinions, well could we say that would be fair to apply to the States too? I mean, obviously not all of us are behind the current war and not all of us are in support of Bush so wouldn't it be preferable to criticize the US government rather than its citzens? I think if people of other countries did this, the US citizens would be more willing to hear them out. When they point a finger at us and say "YOU!" we take that very much to heart.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Chookie;855882 wrote: No Terri, it's your government we have issues with.



Ha! Perfect timing Chookie. I just asked that question in my last post! :wah:
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Post by Pheasy »

Okay I know I'm being ignored here :wah: But I have lived here and seen how the American people treat each other, its terrible. So focused on defending your flag and country you forgot about yourselves. Sad but true. I'll shut up now, I know when I'm flogging a dead horse :wah:
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Post by RedGlitter »

You're not being ignored Pheasy. I didn't know there was such a difference in people. What do you mean we forget about ourselves?
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Post by Pheasy »

RedGlitter;855889 wrote: You're not being ignored Pheasy. I didn't know there was such a difference in people. What do you mean we forget about ourselves?



Where do I start ... ok here's just a few things off the cuff ... Your customer service is appalling .... you have rights as a consumer, but companies really don't care, and you accept that. People are so hell bent on earning money, and owning at least 3 vehicles they forget their kids and the affect they are having on society. You accepted drugs problems as ok, very little being done about that. Very few people stand up for animals (I know thats not you - but in the UK you the majority not minority). Americans talk to each other like cr4p. It took me at least 6 months of being here to finally accept the way you treat each other ... it was very upsetting.

I was used to being a person who had rights and a voice, you don't have that here. I just think you need to get back home, and look after your own. USA is not looking after their own, don't you think they should?
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Post by RedGlitter »

FB, if I had known it was O'Reilly I probably wouldn't have watched because I loathe that arrogant fool. I just can't stomach him, his rhetoric or his abysmal manners. But...I made myself watch the whole thing.

The only thing i agreed with was when he touched on Iraq's ineptitude of standing up for itself. But the rest is just his usual, Limbaughian claptrap designed to make it look like if you are against the war, you're against the military and therefore (gasp!) against America. This works on some people certainly, but fortunately not all of us fall for it.

I am surprised (pleasantly so) that we are all discussing this without hatred. Even you and I are and we were once at complete odds with each other. So that's a good thing.

Why does Australia and (I'm gonna say it RJ ;)) the rest of the world choose to see us all that way? To believe that is what we all stand for? Is the American media really that powerful that your or anyone's else's country would give that much credence to an idiot war monger like O'Reilly? I don't know, so I'm asking.

Overall though, this concept isn't anything new. It smacks of Vietnam and being hated for protesting what they thought was an unnecessary war. It seems like a repeat of the same.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Ack! Everybody slow down! :wah: Okay I'm cooking dinner in between posts so I might be slow but I will answer everyone.
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

WOW....didn't realize that ALL of us Americans were so rude, arrogant and so self-centered and noncaring of our children...guess I'll have to travel back to some European and Australian countries to learn some manners:mad:
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Post by Pheasy »

Kathy Ellen;855910 wrote: WOW....didn't realize that ALL of us Americans were so rude, arrogant and so self-centered and noncaring of our children...guess I'll have to travel back to some European and Australian countries to learn some manners:mad:



No ... there are many who are holding strong like you ... I'm sorry if I offended you Kathy. Its just having lived here, and bonded with many, I just wanted to say where you are being cheated. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother mentioning it ... I do care :-4
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Post by Pheasy »

Okay I'm off to bed .... I just wanted to say I meant no offense. But you do need to know that you have lost focus a little. Stop worrying about other countries and look at your own. Look after your own. You are loosing focus on your own people, you are treating each other badly, spending so much time defending and not looking closer to home. Look after your fellow Americans and its animals, Once you have a strong hold on this, the rest just happens - and the world knows it :-4 Peace :-6
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Some of the comments in this thread make me so very sad. America is not the only country that has problems. I seem to be hearing from quite a few members here that they are also having similar problems in their county, and don't know how to deal with them.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Okay catching up now.....

Regarding dumping the flag and living in the past....we've talked about that before so I won't rehash it. But I have to say regarding our history, you can't go anywhere if you don't know where you've already been.

RJ....I voted Libertarian in that election. That's my chosen party although I vote for who I like best and not necessarily my own party. I always vote and I take that very seriously.

What I was trying to say, was that blanket statements are never a good idea. If non Americans would elaborate a little and specifically say "your government sucks," that would be preferable to them saying "well, YOU are responsible for this or that!" It just sounds like a bunch of whining. It's not constructive. And Americans don't like to all be painted with the same brush. Not all of us support Bush and War so please stop being all-inclusive in your fingerpointing. We're not happy about the situation any more than you are. (ETA: I mean "you" as in general, not anyone specific)

Pheasy....I don't know what I can say about that having never been to Britain. I think however that British people are more artificial when it comes to courtesy. Manners at all costs, while Americans are more a "tell it like it is" breed. Yes, our customer service is often terrible. True.

I have to take issue with the money part. Americans aren't any more into money than British people. The fact is we have to work to feed ourselves. Where I live it's not uncommon to work two jobs just to feed your kids. Many people have to have two incomes coming in to survive and that's not because we have too many cars or want big houses. We don't forget our kids, we work our @sses off to provide for them.

We still have the ridiculous "war on drugs" and my opinion is if they were to legalize them things would run a lot smoother. The drug war is a colossal waste of money in my opinion. I accept drugs because I recognize that people need an escape. If you drink that's one escape, If you lick an acid tab that's another form of one. It's not for me to judge that one.

I'm not sure what you are talking about in respect to having a voice and our rights? Americans are some of the most outspoken people there are and we know we have rights. I guess I don't understand that part.

We talk like crap to each other? I think that's probably a human thing more than a regional thing. I've certainly had people mistreat me but I've had just as many be kind to me.
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Post by Pheasy »

RedGlitter;855922 wrote: Okay catching up now.....

Regarding dumping the flag and living in the past....we've talked about that before so I won't rehash it. But I have to say regarding our history, you can't go anywhere if you don't know where you've already been.

RJ....I voted Libertarian in that election. That's my chosen party although I vote for who I like best and not necessarily my own party. I always vote and I take that very seriously.

What I was trying to say, was that blanket statements are never a good idea. If non Americans would elaborate a little and specifically say "your government sucks," that would be preferable to them saying "well, YOU are responsible for this or that!" It just sounds like a bunch of whining. It's not constructive. And Americans don't like to all be painted with the same brush. Not all of us support Bush and War so please stop being all-inclusive in your fingerpointing. We're not happy about the situation any more than you are. (ETA: I mean "you" as in general, not anyone specific)

Pheasy....I don't know what I can say about that having never been to Britain. I think however that British people are more artificial when it comes to courtesy. Manners at all costs, while Americans are more a "tell it like it is" breed. Yes, our customer service is often terrible. True.

I have to take issue with the money part. Americans aren't any more into money than British people. The fact is we have to work to feed ourselves. Where I live it's not uncommon to work two jobs just to feed your kids. Many people have to have two incomes coming in to survive and that's not because we have too many cars or want big houses. We don't forget our kids, we work our @sses off to provide for them.

We still have the ridiculous "war on drugs" and my opinion is if they were to legalize them things would run a lot smoother. The drug war is a colossal waste of money in my opinion. I accept drugs because I recognize that people need an escape. If you drink that's one escape, If you lick an acid tab that's another form of one. It's not for me to judge that one.

I'm not sure what you are talking about in respect to having a voice and our rights? Americans are some of the most outspoken people there are and we know we have rights. I guess I don't understand that part.

We talk like crap to each other? I think that's probably a human thing more than a regional thing. I've certainly had people mistreat me but I've had just as many be kind to me.



Nope! Big time disagree, every Brit you meet will be genuine!
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

I appreciate everything that you've said Red and agree 100% with all of your thoughts. Thank you:-6.......well said.
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Post by Pheasy »

'sigh'
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Post by Accountable »

I've been to England. I've also lived on all three US coasts.



Put away all broad brushes when referring to any country. To say all Americans do this or all Brits do that is to de-personalize either people. Individuals are, well, individual.



Try to remember that.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable;855934 wrote: I've been to England. I've also lived on all three US coasts.



Put away all broad brushes when referring to any country. To say all Americans do this or all Brits do that is to de-personalize either people. Individuals are, well, individual.



Try to remember that.



Thank you Acc. Good point.
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Post by Pheasy »

JAB;855935 wrote: Pheasy, I must admit that the stereotype image I had of Brits changed dramatically while working for the BBC here in the US. They were 5 of the best years of my working life. Our office was about 50/50 of Americans and Brits and we each learned from the other. We butted heads and we clinked a lot of glasses. ;) With the exception of religion though, we're not all that different.



Yes and I agree :-5
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Kathy Ellen
Posts: 10569
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm

US- the religion police

Post by Kathy Ellen »

Accountable;855934 wrote: I've been to England. I've also lived on all three US coasts.



Put away all broad brushes when referring to any country. To say all Americans do this or all Brits do that is to de-personalize either people. Individuals are, well, individual.



Try to remember that.



Thanks Accountable:-6 Well said and so true. There have been some people from other countries who have been so rude to me, but I understood that they were individuals. Their behavior was not indicitive of the population in their country.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

US- the religion police

Post by gmc »

RedGlitter;855875 wrote: Okay that's fair. Do you guys have issues with the US citizens or just with our government? When this kind of subject comes up, I and others tend to have a kneejerk reaction to it, as if other countries are insulting our "mother." Or us individual citizens personally. That's why we get emotional about it. For me personally I cannot apologize enough for Bush and things our government does but I don't feel I have done anything. At least I never voted him in. :o



Any discussions you see here are almost invariable about what your govt is doing not about the american people per se. It actually gets irritating that you can't discuss anything without someone saying you are just anti-American. You can say what you like about canada, the UK etc etc no one assumes it is a diatribe against the british people unless you make it very clearly personal as in all britons smell or something like that. We probably wouldn't bother about that either.

It is your perception that everybody is anti american-and i probably come across that way as much as anyone. Look at your initial post

posted by red glitter

Either we butt in or we don't do enough. Why does the world think it can have both ways?



You then post an article criticising US policy written by an AMERICAN organisation and ask why the rest of the world is complaining.

posted by red glitter

I didn't say it was US against anything, RJ. I am complaining that the WORLD gripes about us being the "world police" yet now we're not doing enough to help other countries with their religious freedom. PishPosh. They can't have it both ways.



You're finding anti american comments where they don't even exist. One nutter on this forum accused me of being anti american because I kept using a small a instead of a capital A when typing america. There was succession of increasingly abusive posts until she finally told me what she found offensive because for the life of me I couldn't work out what it was.

Actually America is so diverse I don't think there is any such thing as a typical American.

posted by red glitter

What I was trying to say, was that blanket statements are never a good idea. If non Americans would elaborate a little and specifically say "your government sucks," that would be preferable to them saying "well, YOU are responsible for this or that!" It just sounds like a bunch of whining. It's not constructive. And Americans don't like to all be painted with the same brush. Not all of us support Bush and War so please stop being all-inclusive in your fingerpointing. We're not happy about the situation any more than you are. (ETA: I mean "you" as in general, not anyone specific)



Your government sucks. You elected them but like us the majority didn't vote for them.

In the UK over 2/3rds of the votes were not for new labour yet we got stuck with them and tony I'm a smarmy git Blair. We both have problems with our electoral systems.

Although at least GW was acting in what he thinks are america's interests. God knows what Tony Blair was thinking. Just for the record we are even more embarrassed about that than you are about GW. Looks like new labour are about to get their comeuppance pity the alternative will only get in because they are currently seen as being less bad.

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