We know now who killed JFK ?

Fact or Fiction? Discuss here.
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G#Gill
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We know now who killed JFK ?

Post by G#Gill »

I have just spent two hours watching a documentary about the murder of John F. Kennedy, President of the United States of America in 1963. I was curious at the title, as there has been so much hoo ha about this terrible assassination. I really didn't think that I would survive watching the complete doc. but I got quite involved with it, and it demonstrated to me just how nasty people in high places can be. But if you can set aside a couple of hours (yoiks !) to tackle this documentary, I will leave it up to you what you make of it and whether you think that at last the truth is now out about JFK's murder. Warning:- There are one or two rather graphic photographs in colour and black and white and a rather graphic video of the bullet actually smashing JFK's head. But it is all part and parcel of this investigative documentary. To me it was a real eye opener.

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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK, whether someone else was behind him, I don't know. One of the saddest, most shocking days of my life, I will never forget it.
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Post by G#Gill »

AnneBoleyn;1494924 wrote: Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK, whether someone else was behind him, I don't know. One of the saddest, most shocking days of my life, I will never forget it.


Sorry, Anne, but, if you watch this documentary you will see reasons why Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't and didn't kill JFK. It was, apparently a man called Hunt and JFK was shot from in front, not behind (well at least the shot that killed him was from in front). In other words the assassin was on the 'grassy knoll', as per witness statements in the doc. It shows too that the exit wound was at the back of the head and was 7 centimetres wide, and it basically blew the poor man's brains out. Rather gruesome, but I doubt that JFK would have known much about things, so I doubt he would have suffered too much, thank goodness, not like his poor wife must have done !

Actually, as far as I could tell JFK was probably the best President for America. He prevented a potential third world war with the Cuban missile hassle with Russian involvement. He was firmly against racism and that upset people like Hoover etc.

I must say that his assassination was a terrible shock to me, and I can remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when the awful news broke. It seems that in America if certain people don't like what a president is doing they just kill him off ! No wonder Obama is surrounded by security all the time !
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Post by LarsMac »

Wassberg's film is a re-hash of earlier conspiracy theorists claims, and many of those early point he tries to make have been debunked. Like the "Magic bullet" thing.

And that Oswald could not have fired those three shots in the time allowed.

And, of course the bullet found on the stretcher was always assumed to be the same "Magic Bullet" Probably not. That bullet may have never been anywhere near Oswald or Kennedy.

Oswald could have actually done the deed, without any help.

Did the Warren Commission get it right? Probably not.

Does that mean that Oswald did the deed, all on his own volition, without any help from anyone? No.

It very well could have been a conspiracy. Could someone in the CIA have been in on it? Sure. Possible.

Could someone from the Mob have been behind it? Sure, possible.

We'll never really know. Why even bother.





I think you would find the 1973 film, "Executive Action" a lot more interesting, though. It kind of leaves you with the same idea.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I may have actually seen this before Gill, & I've certainly seen many like it. For me, however, the obvious choice, Oswald, IS the killer. Just like an insignificant nobody killed John Lennon (and he was on an enemies list of Nixon, John was considered more political adversary than being a Beatle), the same for the mental case who shot Reagan & other assassinations committed it turns out to be an "ordinary" guy & the only mystery is in his head.

I don't think, Lars, that "We'll never really know. Why even bother." I think we DO know, & that it is not as interesting as a conspiracy; and it is hard to accept that some lowly guy took down the great, legendary JFK. So, we contemplate other stuff instead.
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Post by Bruv »

I remember it very well, as a 16 year old.

The Americans love a conspiracy, verging on paranoia.

If the theories behind the assassination and 9-11 are to be given any credence, having the right to bear arms to protect yourselves from your own government just isn't working.
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Post by ZAP »

I don't think there's any way, if you look at all the evidence and circumstances and expert testimony that anyone can still believe that Oswald acted alone, if he did in fact act at all. The Warren Commission had to get a story out to the people. Later their report was found to be faulty. Autopsy on the most important man in the world was botched, police evidence was botched, many witnesses were mysteriously killed or died. I have great confidence in Cyril Wecht and his findings. He states that it was impossible for it to have happened the way we were told. I think I've read all the conspiracy books out there and am still reading The Man Who Killed Kennedy, which implicates LBJ in a big way. I also saw a documentary recently on a man in prison who admitted to the killing. This may be the person Gill refers to. I'll have to Google it.

A couple of years ago I was talking to a friend who had "connections" in a small way. I asked him what his thoughts were on the assassination and he said he knew that the Mafia was connected. At the time of the assassination a friend of his, with "connections" in a big way was going to Florida to try to get a multi-million dollar deal through. Marcello was one of the key players, but there was a lot of opposition to it. When he came back he said it was a done deal and that President Johnson would be very happy. The friend said "You mean President Kennedy." The guy said, "No, Johnson, he'll be president before the year is out." This was late September 1963. My friend was careful not to name any names.
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Post by ZAP »

Here's the link to the man who said he shot Kennedy.

Mafia Hit Man Confesses to Killing President Kennedy
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

ZAP;1494935 wrote: Here's the link to the man who said he shot Kennedy.

Mafia Hit Man Confesses to Killing President Kennedy


Newsmax is "Newsmax Media, commonly called Newsmax, is a conservative/right-wing American news media organization". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsmax_Media. They are known for conspiracy theories aimed to mistrust government.

I have always found them to be a sensationalist site & don't believe anything they ever said about anything. As for this guy confessing, ask any cop & they will tell you of the thousands yearly who confess to crimes they have never committed. I disregard your source.

I will now confess that although I was 13 at the time & was in high school in Brooklyn NY when it occurred, it was indeed me who killed JFK. It was a case of unrequited love, he would not divorce Jackie.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

G#Gill;1494926 wrote: Sorry, Anne, but, if you watch this documentary you will see reasons why Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't and didn't kill JFK. It was, apparently a man called Hunt and JFK was shot from in front, not behind (well at least the shot that killed him was from in front). In other words the assassin was on the 'grassy knoll', as per witness statements in the doc. It shows too that the exit wound was at the back of the head and was 7 centimetres wide, and it basically blew the poor man's brains out. Total nonsense. The nature of the injury is well established. Otherwise the entire attending staff at Parkland would have to have been part of a conspiracy. Also at least one of the amateur films, I've forgotten which, shows the impact clearly.
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1494929 wrote: I may have actually seen this before Gill, & I've certainly seen many like it. For me, however, the obvious choice, Oswald, IS the killer. Just like an insignificant nobody killed John Lennon (and he was on an enemies list of Nixon, John was considered more political adversary than being a Beatle), the same for the mental case who shot Reagan & other assassinations committed it turns out to be an "ordinary" guy & the only mystery is in his head.

I don't think, Lars, that "We'll never really know. Why even bother." I think we DO know, & that it is not as interesting as a conspiracy; and it is hard to accept that some lowly guy took down the great, legendary JFK. So, we contemplate other stuff instead.


I basically agree with you, Anne. Oswald could have done it. We have proof of that. Apply Occam's Razor. Done. Yes, there are some questions. How did he get back so easily, after being in the USSR for so long. Bureaucratic screw-up. Plain and simple.

On the other hand, there is some stuff that does come into play that never really made sense. That's the stuff that just fuels the flames. If one person helped him, in any way, knowing what he was up to, that constitutes a conspiracy. So, yes it could have been a conspiracy. And maybe, somebody WAS tracking Oswald, and figured out what he was doing, and simply "greased the wheels for him." With, or without his knowing. It coulda happened. Marcello's people were really mad at JFK, as were some less than savory types on the CIA. They could have quietly helped Oswald put together his plan, and seen that nothing interfered with him.

The simplest explanation is probably the more correct. That is what I meant about "We'll never really know."

I am sure, however, that the grand government conspiracy idea is probably wrong. the only way a conspiracy can work is if nobody actually knows about it.

The more people involved, the less chance of success.
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Post by LarsMac »

G#Gill;1494926 wrote: Sorry, Anne, but, if you watch this documentary you will see reasons why Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't and didn't kill JFK. It was, apparently a man called Hunt and JFK was shot from in front, not behind (well at least the shot that killed him was from in front). In other words the assassin was on the 'grassy knoll', as per witness statements in the doc. It shows too that the exit wound was at the back of the head and was 7 centimetres wide, and it basically blew the poor man's brains out. Rather gruesome, but I doubt that JFK would have known much about things, so I doubt he would have suffered too much, thank goodness, not like his poor wife must have done !

Actually, as far as I could tell JFK was probably the best President for America. He prevented a potential third world war with the Cuban missile hassle with Russian involvement. He was firmly against racism and that upset people like Hoover etc.

I must say that his assassination was a terrible shock to me, and I can remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when the awful news broke. It seems that in America if certain people don't like what a president is doing they just kill him off ! No wonder Obama is surrounded by security all the time !


That Wassberg "Documentary" is incorrect. I've seen the drawings and the photos. The entry was at the back of the head. And the Zapruder film shows plainly that the the impact came from the rear, and exited the right side of the head, taking a rather large piece of bone with it.
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Post by ZAP »

Mark Aspam;1494953 wrote: Total nonsense. The nature of the injury is well established. Otherwise the entire attending staff at Parkland would have to have been part of a conspiracy. Also at least one of the amateur films, I've forgotten which, shows the impact clearly.


I've read numerous reports , by the attending staff, on what happened at Parkland. These articles are quite lengthy but if you read just a few of the items it appears that something strange was going on. And Parkland should have done an autopsy but they were ordered not to do it.

JFK Lancer

and

Testimony Of Dr. Robert Nelson Mcclelland



Eyewitness accounts:

Bill Newman, closest spectator to the president at the time of the headshot: ( Not called to testify (deposition) before the Warren Commission. )

"And then as the car got directly in front of us, gunshot apparently from behind us, hit the President in the side of the temple."

(Newman was about 10-12 feet ( 3-4 meters ) Away at the time of the head shot.)

http://grandsubversion.com/jfkAssassina ... _small.jpg

"I was looking directly at him when he was hit in the side of the head." jfk witnesses head shot wound assassination kennedy bill newman dallas newman jfk assassination kennedy photos pictures autopsy witnesses

newman jfk assassination kennedy photos pictures autopsy witnesses head wound dicription conspiracy from front fatal injury location lone assassin theories temple trajectory.



My name is Hurchel Jacks, Texas State Highway Patrolman. I was assigned on November 22, 1963, to drive the Vice President Lyndon Johnson in the Motorcade from the Airport to the Trade Mart.

***

"Before the President' a body was covered it appeared that the bullet had struck him above the right ear or near the temple." They removed his body at that time. Reporters began to arrive. We were assigned by the Secret Service to prevent any pictures of any nature to be taken of the President's car or the inside.





EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY Emmett J. Hudson:



Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.



Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON. Right hand.





Clint Hill secret service (pictured Back of car.)

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car

jfk assasination head shot photos kennedy autopsy witness wound picture

JFK ASSASSINATION PHOTOS KENNEDY AUTOPSY WITNESS HEAD SHOT WOUND location description conspiracy lone assassin injury theories fatal trajectory.



Philip Willis,

Has stated, he believed shots were fired from the depository,

but "at least one shot including the one that took the back of his head off, had to come from his ( the President’s ) right front." jfk assassination back of head wound shot from eye witness philip willis photo john f kennedy picture

JFK KENNEDY ASSASSINATION AUTOPSY



Parkland Doctors Press Conference -- Nov. 22, 1963
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Post by LarsMac »

Looking at the film, the way the head moved could suggest to the inexperienced observer that the head shot was from the front. But the head lurch to the rear left was a reaction to the force of the exit material.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

ZAP;1494958 wrote: I've read numerous reports , by the attending staff, on what happened at Parkland. These articles are quite lengthy but if you read just a few of the items it appears that something strange was going on. And Parkland should have done an autopsy but they were ordered not to do it.You destroy any credibility you might have had by citing JFK Lancer, which is well-known as a nut website.
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Post by tude dog »

AnneBoleyn;1494924 wrote: Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK, whether someone else was behind him, I don't know.


Ann, I am with you 99%. The only difference is my certainty that Oswald acted alone.

AnneBoleyn;1494924 wrote: One of the saddest, most shocking days of my life, I will never forget it.


At the time I heard, I did not grasp the importance of what just happened till I got home and watched everybody's reaction.
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Post by ZAP »

Mark Aspam;1494968 wrote: You destroy any credibility you might have had by citing JFK Lancer, which is well-known as a nut website.


I didn't realize that JFK Lancer was a nutcase source. I included it and others because they illustrated some of the testimony which seemed to be altered somewhat at some point.

I thought it was interesting that one of the best witnesses who had been standing between the motorcade and the grassy knoll with his wife and 2 small children, heard the shots and thought they came from behind them. They fell to the ground to protect their children. The Warren Commission didn't call them as witnesses. They describe the events in this interview:

JFKfactsCredible witness: Bill Newman's story - JFKfacts
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Post by Mark Aspam »

ZAP;1494971 wrote: I didn't realize that JFK Lancer was a nutcase source. I included it and others because they illustrated some of the testimony which seemed to be altered somewhat at some point.

I thought it was interesting that one of the best witnesses who had been standing between the motorcade and the grassy knoll with his wife and 2 small children, heard the shots and thought they came from behind them. They fell to the ground to protect their children. The Warren Commission didn't call them as witnesses. They describe the events in this interview:

JFKfactsCredible witness: Bill Newman's story - JFKfactsI was not familiar with that website (JFKfacts); it appears, at least at first glance, to be pretty much neutral. I haven't listened to the interview, but reports of the shots coming from different directions are not unusual, there are other tall buildings in the immediate area, which would bounce the sound. The written comments seem to be pretty evenly balanced.
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Post by G#Gill »

In my opinion and from what I have seen and read, there were at least 2 shots fired. One from behind and one from in front of Kennedy, and that would indicate two people shooting, unless Oswald somehow managed to leap from the Depository on to the grassy knoll !

There is no way anybody can dismiss that awful exit wound at the back of his head, and the 'wound' just below his Adams apple could have been another bullet hole. Very suspicious that the autopsy wasn't done at the Parkland Hospital. So many suspicious goings on anyway. As far as I can see the whole episode stinks and there are too many questions that are unanswered. Top and bottom of it is that somebody wanted rid of JFK for several reasons, possibly to do with racism, possibly to do with Cuba. Fingers are pointing all over the place, but I know who I would put in the dock and it is more than one person ! JFK was probably the best President in America for decades.
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ZAP
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Post by ZAP »

This is a compelling interview done 50 years later, with the Newmans, the closest civilian witnesses to the shooting. It's quite lengthy. It shows a lot of film. One of the most interesting things to me is that they saw Secret Service men immediately rush up the grassy knoll. They weren't asked to be a witness for the Warren Commission. They did give an affidavit the day of the assassination and the FBI visited them 3 days later and asked if they wanted to change anything on their statement or want to add anything. They didn't. Bill and his wife still feel that it wasn't LHO acting alone but they don't discount the possibility that it could have happened that way. They just don't feel that it did.

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Post by Mark Aspam »

G#Gill;1494974 wrote: There is no way anybody can dismiss that awful exit wound at the back of his head... There was no exit wound at the back of his head. Period. Does that count as a dismissal?

If you disagree, present evidence from a RELIABLE source, not raving nut material.
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Post by LarsMac »

Well, as far as I am concerned, we may as well discuss who the guy in Troy was that let the Greeks slip that damned Wooden Horse through the gates.

I spent a year digging through the JFK evidence, once. I am pretty much done with it. It really doesn't matter, anymore.

Oswald done it, and there is no evidence that soundly refutes that assertion. Whether he had help, or not is irrelevant, now.
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Post by FourPart »

A Rational Conspiracy Theory is a contradiction in terms. It's like Creationist arguments - if the evidence doesn't fit with the theory, it either doesn't exist or it's been faked - as to why anyone would want to fake it is neither here nor there.

Personally I reckon the Red Dwarf episode has just as much validity as any of the other Conspiracy Theories and, for the benefit of those unfamiliar with Red Dwarf, this involves the crew going back in time (to see if they can find a Curry House, as it happens) & inadvertently prevent LHW from assassinating JFK. The ensuing string of events bring about utter world disaster, so they get to speak to JFK & get him to be the gunman on the Grassy Knoll to assassinate himself.

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Post by ZAP »

FourPart;1495007 wrote: A Rational Conspiracy Theory is a contradiction in terms. It's like Creationist arguments - if the evidence doesn't fit with the theory, it either doesn't exist or it's been faked - as to why anyone would want to fake it is neither here nor there.

Personally I reckon the Red Dwarf episode has just as much validity as any of the other Conspiracy Theories and, for the benefit of those unfamiliar with Red Dwarf, this involves the crew going back in time (to see if they can find a Curry House, as it happens) & inadvertently prevent LHW from assassinating JFK. The ensuing string of events bring about utter world disaster, so they get to speak to JFK & get him to be the gunman on the Grassy Knoll to assassinate himself.




That was interesting. But the cars at the end of the clip looked much older than 1963.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

LarsMac;1494999 wrote: 1. Oswald done it, and there is no evidence that soundly refutes that assertion.

2. Whether he had help, or not is irrelevant, now.1. You are correct.

2. Probably no help. He seems to have been a lone wolf, kind of an oddball. His fellow Marines regarded him as such. Once out of the Corps, everything seemed to go wrong for him. His exact motivation for the act is hard to imagine.
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Post by tude dog »

ZAP;1495013 wrote: That was interesting. But the cars at the end of the clip looked much older than 1963.


SO?

The pick up in the center reminds me of the '52 Chevy my parents let me drive while in high school, '68-'69. The others certainly predated 1963 which is all that matters.
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Mark Aspam;1495014 wrote: 1. You are correct.

2. Probably no help. He seems to have been a lone wolf, kind of an oddball. His fellow Marines regarded him as such. Once out of the Corps, everything seemed to go wrong for him. His exact motivation for the act is hard to imagine.


Wasn't long for me to realize the first famed conspirator claimant Jim Garrison was a total wack job.

After that other followed suit with all kinds of books all with different angles.

A new religion was born when it was sanctified by Oliver Stones self-admitted fairy tail, JFK

The only book I read on the subject was Gerald Posner’s “Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK”.

To say the least, I was impressed by Mr. Posner's work.

It was nice to learn at an early age to look askance went confronted with any conspiracy theory.
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