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Fact or Fiction? Discuss here.
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jones jones
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Post by jones jones »

The saturation bombing of Dresden in February 1945 by the Allies took place when to all intents and purposes World War ll was done & dusted. Over 1200 heavy bombers dropped more than 3900 tons of high explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The only manufacturing that was done here was of beautiful & delicate porcelain.

It’s a fact that Churchill, Eisenhower & Stalin divided up Europe at Yalta in February 1945. So was Dresden sacrificed as an example to Stalin of what might happen if he pissed the Allies off in the future? Just as the unnecessary nuclear holocaust inflicted on the Japanese was intended to show?

As an aside … Whilst the spin doctors of the time on both sides would have presented different versions of the death toll, estimates as high as 500,000 have been given. What difference then is their between this massacre and the death of say 500,000 of the estimated 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps?

Just a thought.



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Post by tude dog »

jones jones;1453527 wrote: The saturation bombing of Dresden in February 1945 by the Allies took place when to all intents and purposes World War ll was done & dusted.


Meanwhile, the war continues.

jones jones;1453527 wrote: Over 1200 heavy bombers dropped more than 3900 tons of high explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city. The only manufacturing that was done here was of beautiful & delicate porcelain.


When in time of total war when is producers of is beautiful & delicate porcelain. exempt from reality?

jones jones;1453527 wrote: It�s a fact that Churchill, Eisenhower & Stalin divided up Europe at Yalta in February 1945. So was Dresden sacrificed as an example to Stalin of what might happen if he pissed the Allies off in the future?


Give me an answer, please, hardly waiting.

jones jones;1453527 wrote: Just as the unnecessary nuclear holocaust inflicted on the Japanese was intended to show?


That is cute.

jones jones;1453527 wrote: As an aside � Whilst the spin doctors of the time on both sides would have presented different versions of the death toll, estimates as high as 500,000 have been given.


Where are you going with this :thinking:

jones jones;1453527 wrote: What difference then is their between this massacre and the death of say 500,000 of the estimated 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps?

Just a thought.


Golly, spent way to much time on this.



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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Dresden was a payback. that's never been a hidden fact. Churchill was furious after the bombing of London.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

:wah:

Nothing to do with the factories that manufactured arms and military hardware for the Nazi's then ?

Fact ?

Show me anything but theory and guesswork that Churchill retaliated over the bombing of London. You do have factual evidence of that ???

If Churchill had retailiated, It would not have been due to the bombing of London where there were justifiable targets In war but Coventry. You do know about Coventry I take It ?

Furious at bombing London ? Where's evidence of that?
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

OMG!!! sorry everyone this one likes to stalk.
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Post by tude dog »

Oscar Mate;1453556 wrote: :wah:

Nothing to do with the factories that manufactured arms and military hardware for the Nazi's then ?

Fact ?

Show me anything but theory and guesswork that Churchill retaliated over the bombing of London. You do have factual evidence of that ???

If Churchill had retailiated, It would not have been due to the bombing of London where there were justifiable targets In war but Coventry. You do know about Coventry I take It ?

Furious at bombing London ? Where's evidence of that?


Uhh

It was a little more complicated than the idea Churchill doing a payback, as if he alone had the power to conduct such a massive attack.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

https://suite.io/rupert-taylor/28qq238 ......either way it could possibley viewed as a war crime . 1. to get payback for london. 2. to show russia you can stop where we've agreed you stop.......in any case 35,000 people died in a fire storm.

Writing in Workers World (February 23, 1995) John Black advanced the theory that Churchill used the raid to send a message to the Soviet Union.

Many senior war strategists, among them Churchill, concluded that after the defeat of Germany, the Western Allies were going to be facing a belligerent Soviet Union in Europe.

Black wrote that, “Churchill’s goal in Europe was not only to destroy the military machine of Britain’s imperialist rival - Germany - but to stop the advance of the Soviet Union. With the latter in mind, he decided to bomb Dresden.”

By this thesis, the destruction of the city was to show the Soviets just what allied bombing was capable of doing and make them think twice about any military adventures.

To reach this political goal, wrote Black “the U.S. and British rulers could easily sacrifice more than 35,000 non-combatants with the bombing of Dresden.”


Or .

https://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/ ... r-coventry
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

"Though Victory in Europe (V-E) Day was celebrated on both sides of the Atlantic on May 8, German forces fighting a desperate last stand around Prague refused to give up until May 12."

HowStuffWorks "Nazi Germany Surrenders: February 1945-May 1945"

That, & other pockets of resistance, are why Dresden was bombed February 1945 by the Allies. And we're talking Germans here, the people who cheered Heil Hitler wherever he went, in droves. Don't make this comparison to me: "What difference then is their between this massacre and the death of say 500,000 of the estimated 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps?" Seriously? Defending the butchers to the lambs?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

fuzzywuzzy;1453560 wrote: https://suite.io/rupert-taylor/28qq238 ......either way it could possibley viewed as a war crime . 1. to get payback for london. 2. to show russia you can stop where we've agreed you stop.......in any case 35,000 people died in a fire storm.



Or .

https://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/ ... r-coventry The words you seem to be missing In both your links are theory and accusations.

Do have any documented, factual evidence other than blogs, theory, accusations and guesswork ?
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

tude dog;1453559 wrote: Uhh

It was a little more complicated than the idea Churchill doing a payback, as if he alone had the power to conduct such a massive attack. Exactly !!!!
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

fuzzywuzzy;1453558 wrote: OMG!!! sorry everyone this one likes to stalk. Actually Fuzzy, If you had written ' It's a common theory that Churchill bombed Dresden In retaliation for London bombings, I would have Ignored It.

Had you even written ' It's a theory that Churchill knew Coventry was about to be bombed but kept silent sending hundreds to their deaths so Hitler didn't realise the British had just cracked the Enigma codes', I would agree with you.

Yet when you write Churchill bombed Dresden as payback as fact, then I'm sure I'd have also been corrected had I made such wild claims. Unless of course, you have some evidence of this fact ?

It's highly unlikely It was payback. London and Coventry was bombed In 1940. Dresden was bombed In 1945. A five year gap for payback ? I don't think so. Perhaps you missed JJ's point In his OP asking why when the war was In It's final stages?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

oscar: " A five year gap for payback ?"

Revenge is a dish best served Cold. (Khan, Star Trek--I think)

Wouldn't have blamed Churchill or any other ally if that's what it was.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

AnneBoleyn;1453651 wrote: oscar: " A five year gap for payback ?"

Revenge is a dish best served Cold. (Khan, Star Trek--I think)

Wouldn't have blamed Churchill or any other ally if that's what it was. No-one really knows the reason Anne. There Is a wealth of theory, guesswork and accusations on the web.

One such theory Is that It was to serve as warning and was a veiled threat from Allied forces, Britain and the USA, to Russia. Historians put the start of the Cold War to 1947 but tensions had begun prior.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

I agree oscar, & I find it real difficult to pity the poor Germans of WWII. My bad.
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Post by tude dog »

AnneBoleyn;1453651 wrote: oscar: " A five year gap for payback ?"

Revenge is a dish best served Cold. (Khan, Star Trek--I think)

Wouldn't have blamed Churchill or any other ally if that's what it was.


Anne, that is just so wrong.

I am a vengeful person, but not against innocent people.

The whole argument concerning Dresden is, or should be was it a legitimate military target?

When somebody says it was bombed because Churchill wanted revenge raises red flags as he did not command the American Army Air Corp which participated with the RAF.

Consider there is zero proof of that accusation of vengeance bombing. To refute that is a monumental task, actually impossible.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

tude dog;1453666 wrote: Anne, that is just so wrong.

I am a vengeful person, but not against innocent people.

The whole argument concerning Dresden is, or should be was it a legitimate military target?

When somebody says it was bombed because Churchill wanted revenge raises red flags as he did not command the American Army Air Corp which participated with the RAF.

Consider there is zero proof of that accusation of vengeance bombing. To refute that is a monumental task, actually impossible.


Well said Sir

Now that IS fact
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Okay, so I'm wrong. When I reach perfection, you'll be the first to know. Promise.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

AnneBoleyn;1453669 wrote: Okay, so I'm wrong. When I reach perfection, you'll be the first to know. Promise. You're not so shabby.

You're an excellent debater,
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Oscar Mate;1453671 wrote: You're not so shabby.

You're an excellent debater,


Me? I know I once was, but Me? Now? I LOVE YOU SO MUCH! Pucker up!
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

AnneBoleyn;1453673 wrote: Me? I know I once was, but Me? Now? I LOVE YOU SO MUCH! Pucker up! Yes you. Never put yourself down until you know for sure others are.
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Post by tude dog »

Oscar Mate;1453654 wrote: No-one really knows the reason Anne. There Is a wealth of theory, guesswork and accusations on the web.

One such theory Is that It was to serve as warning and was a veiled threat from Allied forces, Britain and the USA, to Russia. Historians put the start of the Cold War to 1947 but tensions had begun prior.


I don't buy that at all. If anything along those lines would have been the A-bomb which President Truman hinted to Stalin during the Potsdam Conference.

Seems Stalin already knew.

Even so, it was way to early as everybody foolishly were playing nice-nice with Stalin.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

tude dog;1453680 wrote: I don't buy that at all. If anything along those lines would have been the A-bomb which President Truman hinted to Stalin during the Potsdam Conference.

Seems Stalin already knew.

Even so, it was way to early as everybody foolishly were playing nice-nice with Stalin.


Just a theory... one of many.
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Post by tude dog »

AnneBoleyn;1453669 wrote: Okay, so I'm wrong. When I reach perfection, you'll be the first to know. Promise.


Trust me, we will see it before you do.:guitarist
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

tude dog;1453682 wrote: Trust me, we will see it before you do.:guitarist


Look who's talking. The pot calling the kettle black.
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Post by jones jones »

"Don't make this comparison to me: "What difference then is their between this massacre and the death of say 500,000 of the estimated 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps?" Seriously? Defending the butchers to the lambs?"



I don't believe I can ever stand accused of either making light of or disputing the authenticity of the holocaust Annie.

However both during & after World War ll there were and have been other atrocities and genocide against other ethnic groups.

Personally I deplore the slaughter of innocent civilians be they Jew or Gentile.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

jones jones;1453527 wrote: What difference then is their [sic] between this massacre and the death of say 500,000 of the estimated 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps?

Just a thought.Probably one of the most outrageous comparisons I've encountered on these forums - or elsewhere.

The six million - Jews and others - were slaughtered in concentration camps because a LUNATIC and his loyal followers considered them "inferior races".

The citizens of DRESDEN and many other German cities, east and west, paid the price of following such a lunatic rather than stopping him at MUNICH.

I first visited Dresden shortly after German reunification. They were STILL cleaning up the mess. Of course, that was because the Russians had just left it sitting there as a reminder.

I've been back several times since. Still cleaning it up. Otherwise, it's a nice city.
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Post by jones jones »

Mark Aspam;1453789 wrote: Probably one of the most outrageous comparisons I've encountered on these forums - or elsewhere.

The six million - Jews and others - were slaughtered in concentration camps because a LUNATIC and his loyal followers considered them "inferior races".

The citizens of DRESDEN and many other German cities, east and west, paid the price of following such a lunatic rather than stopping him at MUNICH.

I first visited Dresden shortly after German reunification. They were STILL cleaning up the mess. Of course, that was because the Russians had just left it sitting there as a reminder.

I've been back several times since. Still cleaning it up. Otherwise, it's a nice city.


So what you are saying citizen Mark Aspam, is that irrespective of what political party you follow, you are "fair game" if the ruling party of your country causes its opponents to bomb the **** out of you?
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Post by jones jones »

"What difference then is there between this massacre and the death of say 500,000 of the estimated 6,000,000 Jews in concentration camps?"



So what is the difference then?
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Post by Mark Aspam »

jones jones;1453791 wrote: So what you are saying citizen Mark Aspam, is that irrespective of what political party you follow, you are "fair game" if the ruling party of your country causes its opponents to bomb the **** out of you?No, I didn't say anything even REMOTELY like that. Maybe you should go back and read it again.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Mark Aspam;1453789 wrote: Probably one of the most outrageous comparisons I've encountered on these forums - or elsewhere.

The six million - Jews and others - were slaughtered in concentration camps because a LUNATIC and his loyal followers considered them "inferior races".

The citizens of DRESDEN and many other German cities, east and west, paid the price of following such a lunatic rather than stopping him at MUNICH.

I first visited Dresden shortly after German reunification. They were STILL cleaning up the mess. Of course, that was because the Russians had just left it sitting there as a reminder.

I've been back several times since. Still cleaning it up. Otherwise, it's a nice city. Excellent point.

It wasn't just the Jews that were considered Inferior races but also the disabled and gypsies were rounded up for the gas chambers because they were viewed the Inferior races. The very big difference Is one was ethnic cleansing and the other collateral damage, although I am loathed to use that phrase because Innocents were caught up In bombings.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Oscar Mate;1453812 wrote: Excellent point.

It wasn't just the Jews that were considered Inferior races but also the disabled and gypsies were rounded up for the gas chambers because they were viewed the Inferior races. The very big difference Is one was ethnic cleansing and the other collateral damage, although I am [loath] to use that phrase because Innocents were caught up In bombings.Oscar, war is hell and there will always be civilian casualties.

Also, the failure to stop Hitler at Munich was, of course, shared by the Western nations.

Righteous Germans who gave their lives attempting to do so, such as the Scholl siblings, and many others, are now regarded as German heroes, as they should be.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Mark Aspam;1453878 wrote: Oscar, war is hell and there will always be civilian casualties.

Also, the failure to stop Hitler at Munich was, of course, shared by the Western nations.

Righteous Germans who gave their lives attempting to do so, such as the Scholl siblings, and many others, are now regarded as German heroes, as they should be.


Without going Into details, one of my prized possessions Is a certificate tucked Into a 1940 Pilots log book that Is from the Home Office. It states my Father Is hereby ' Licensed to Bomb'...

When looking at the war, my Father did bomb Germany but It was something he had to live with there after and many people do not realise the Impact It had on them and there was no counselling back then. He saw It as having to follow orders, do what he had to do but although he never ever spoke about those years to anyone and certainly never glorified what he did, I know he felt for the loss of civilian life for the rest of his days.

However, I am very proud of my Father.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Oscar Mate;1453885 wrote: ...my Father did bomb Germany but It was something he had to live with there after and many people do not realise the Impact It had on them and there was no counselling back then. He saw It as having to follow orders, do what he had to do but although he never ever spoke about those years to anyone and certainly never glorified what he did, I know he felt for the loss of civilian life for the rest of his days. However, I am very proud of my Father.Understood, and had I been in his position I 'm sure I would have had similar regrets.

Still, the burden of guilt belongs on the aggressors, not the defenders of freedom such as your dad.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Mark Aspam;1453887 wrote: Understood, and had I been in his position I 'm sure I would have had similar regrets.

Still, the burden of guilt belongs on the aggressors, not the defenders of freedom such as your dad. True... every now and then, I get out his pilots log books and read what he was doing over the skies. It was also an extremely dangerous time for fighter pilots. I was lucky In that my dad got to come home.

The only thing he would ever say about those times was that Hitler was the enemy, not the people of Germany.
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