Celebrities In Secret Societies And Satanism

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TruthBringer
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Post by TruthBringer »

Snowfire;1315052 wrote: Well thats it then. No other choice

I'm sticking to Peter Paul and Mary

YouTube - if i had a hammer - peter paul and mary

"If I had a Hammer" sounds pretty violent and demonic.

Or am I just seeing what I want to se ?


It's not all music that is bad. It's certain songs, it's certain musicians, it's certain producers, etc.

Little billy beating on his drums for fun in the garage is not practicing Satanism. But cryptic, Evil messages being put into lyrics of music today, money becoming the prime motivator of musicians, producers as members of the Illuminati forcing those that they sign deals with to take the oath of the Baphomet, these are where the trouble exists.
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Post by Snowfire »

The popular music business has and always has been very cut throat and lucrative. I'm not sure they need any help at all from the devil to turn a tidy profit.

Although there must be some evil input to foist the likes of Hannah Montanna and Justin bloody Beiber on us :rolleyes:
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Post by TruthBringer »

On Friday Coast to Coast AM is doing a show on the power of the Human Voice. In the first half of the show, vocal expert Stewart Pearce discusses the human voice, and how it is much more than just a way to communicate. Followed by Open Lines. Be sure to listen if you are interested on whatever station it comes in on in your area.

Stewart Pearce's website is http://www.thealchemyofvoice.com/

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2010/06/11
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Post by TruthBringer »

Here are two more EXPLOSIVE videos from somebody who was on the inside of the business giving exact details about what is done with music before it hits the public scene.



YouTube - John Todd- Demons Behind The Music

YouTube - Corruption and Satanism in the Music Industry Roger_Morneau John_Todd Spirit Worship



The following is from the same guy from the second video exposing amazing information:



YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 01 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 02 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 03 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 04 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 05 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 06 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 07 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 08 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 09 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 10 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 11 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 12 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 13 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 14 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 15 of 16

YouTube - Roger Morneau Interview 16 of 16
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Post by Snowfire »

This John Todd who seems to have had such an influence on you, doesnt seem to have had the most forthright of existencies does he

From Wikipedia....

Todd was arrested in May 1987 for the rape of a University of South Carolina graduate student. After his arrest, he was additionally charged with sexually molesting two children who attended a karate school where he worked. He was convicted of the rape in January 1988 and sentenced to 30 years in state prison.[11] In 2004, Todd was released, but he was put in the care of the Behavioral Disorder Treatment Unit run by the South Carolina Department of Mental Health.[12] On November 10, 2007, Todd died in the institute.[2]


and more.....



Todd claimed to have served as a Green Beret in the Vietnam War, but his discharge papers list him as a general clerk/typist and do not record him having been in Vietnam. Army medical reports referred to "emotional instability with pseudologica phantastica" (compulsive lying), difficulty in telling reality from fantasy, homicidal threats he had made on another, false suicide reports, and a severe personality disturbance.[13] Todd also claimed in his testimony to have murdered an officer in Germany and to have escaped prison with the help of the Illuminati, but his records show no such things occurred.


John Todd (occultist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why should anyone take this man remotely seriously ? Not only are you producing fantastical claims but you back them up using testimony from a disreputable source
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

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Post by TruthBringer »

Snowfire;1315086 wrote: This John Todd who seems to have had such an influence on you, doesnt seem to have had the most forthright of existencies does he

From Wikipedia....



and more.....





John Todd (occultist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why should anyone take this man remotely seriously ? Not only are you producing fantastical claims but you back them up using testimony from a disreputable source


Well there are different versions of the story but from what I understand the guy may have been framed. Of course there was no evidence of him being involved in the Illuminati. But it does look like a coverup if you ask me.

Anyways, to get the point, the guy really did seem to know what he was talking about. And I wasn't at all interested in who he was as a person, I was more interested in seeing if what he said just so happened to match up with what other people who have gone public have said. And lo and behold, it does.
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Post by TruthBringer »

Anyways, I believe I have provided enough evidence in this thread for people to draw their conclusions one way or the other. As I get more I am sure I will post it, but I am satisfied with the current info that I have posted up until this point. Snowfire, don't worry, I'm not expecting you to become a "believer". In fact, I consider you to be more of a deceiver than a believer. Spot, same to you. GMC, I'm sure you already know that I expect the same from you. K snyder, you are no different. And if I left out any names I do apolagize.

On the other hand, for those who are willing to take the time to do their own research into this matter, good luck with your searches, most likely the deeper you get into it the more you will realize it's true. And really try and focus on people's arguments against it because you will realize that their arguments are based upon pure speculation and opinion where as the evidence to back these claims up is tremendous. I mean I'm just happy there are alot of people who are starting to look into it. One thing about the Truth, it will eventually always come out. No matter what the situation. So to that we can all breath a sigh of relief.
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Post by Snowfire »

TruthBringer;1315128 wrote: Snowfire, don't worry, I'm not expecting you to become a "believer". In fact, I consider you to be more of a deceiver than a believer.


TB, as an athiest, I do not believe in god so by the same token I dont believe in the devil either. Neither has any influence as to my life

Incidentily, You may not think the reputation of your source - John Todd - is important but certain christian orginisations do. Cornerstone Magazine :: The John Todd Story [expose], by Gary Metz was one I found which was pretty damning of him. His life was full of "significant discrepancies". A compulsive liar and a fantasist who was diagnosed while in the army by a psychiatrist with 'emotional instability with pseudologica phantastica.'

I think if you put so much faith in such a completely disreputable source, then I suggest it is you, not me, that is decieving yourself
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

TruthBringer;1315060 wrote: On Friday Coast to Coast AM is doing a show on the power of the Human Voice. In the first half of the show, vocal expert Stewart Pearce discusses the human voice, and how it is much more than just a way to communicate. Followed by Open Lines. Be sure to listen if you are interested on whatever station it comes in on in your area.



Stewart Pearce's website is http://www.thealchemyofvBoice.com/



The Voice/Open Lines - Shows - Coast to Coast AM


Hi TruthBringer,



I've been listening to Art Bell and then George Noory since 1985. For some reason his show was dumped recently from WABC:mad:



I can sometimes pick him up on another local station and will try to do that on Friday to listen to this discussion. He sounds interesting.....



Here's another link to Pearce...



The Alchemy of Voice by Stewart Pearce
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Post by TruthBringer »

Snowfire;1315149 wrote: TB, as an athiest, I do not believe in god so by the same token I dont believe in the devil either. Neither has any influence as to my life

Incidentily, You may not think the reputation of your source - John Todd - is important but certain christian orginisations do. Cornerstone Magazine :: The John Todd Story [expose], by Gary Metz was one I found which was pretty damning of him. His life was full of "significant discrepancies". A compulsive liar and a fantasist who was diagnosed while in the army by a psychiatrist with 'emotional instability with pseudologica phantastica.'

I think if you put so much faith in such a completely disreputable source, then I suggest it is you, not me, that is decieving yourself


You have to understand. I'm not putting faith in anything. I'm combining evidence here. And you must also understand, even if it's true, John Todd said the only reason he went public is because he was jealous over money, basically. So even if it's true what he did, then that would make him a perfect candidate for the Illuminati, because they love people like that. Do you really believe that the Illuminati recruits God loving, Kind, Generous, Christ loving people into their organizations? Are you kidding me? Child molesters, rapists, now that's right down their ally. Of course they would have liked a guy like John Todd. That's no surprise to me.

But remember, it's the info I'm interested in. Not the man.
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Kathy Ellen;1315150 wrote: Hi TruthBringer,



I've been listening to Art Bell and then George Noory since 1985. For some reason his show was dumped recently from WABC:mad:



I can sometimes pick him up on another local station and will try to do that on Friday to listen to this discussion. He sounds interesting.....



Here's another link to Pearce...



The Alchemy of Voice by Stewart Pearce


Glad to see a fellow fan. =)
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Post by K.Snyder »

TruthBringer;1315128 wrote: K snyder, you are no different. And if I left out any names I do apolagize.




"Satan" doesn't exist. You're just completely convinced that's all that is.

"Satan" cannot exist along side God. It's mathematically incorrect. You're spouting off about misconceptions. You're arguing with you're own reality, it's redundant.
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Post by TruthBringer »

K.Snyder;1315182 wrote: "Satan" doesn't exist. You're just completely convinced that's all that is.

"Satan" cannot exist along side God. It's mathematically incorrect. You're spouting off about misconceptions. You're arguing with you're own reality, it's redundant.


If you say so.
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Post by K.Snyder »

TruthBringer;1315183 wrote: If you say so.


I know so
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Post by TruthBringer »

K.Snyder;1315185 wrote: I know so


You're not doing the math right.

You're looking at it in terms of Satan being Equal to God. You're not doing the math from a standpoint of subtracting from the source to get a number. You're looking at it being two sources equal in scope. You're right, it's impossible. There can be only one Source, and the source is God.

It's a line of succession. This is simple math. You subtract downward in a line. The first subtraction of course being Christ. THEN came the Angels. Remember this because it's important if you're going to do the math. You subtract 1 from the POOL. You take 1 slice of the pie and call it 1 slice. You can't have two pieces of apples from the same apple without the apple first being WHOLE. When it was whole, there was no Satan. There was no anything else. When it was sliced, there was a Satan. And then there was a you. Because you came after the Angels did. Part of the reason why so many legends have stated that these "gods" are "jealous" "gods". Of course. Human intellect would tell you that what comes first has priority. Not the case at all. Just because something was first does not mean it takes precedence. "And the first shall be last." Jesus's own words.
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Post by K.Snyder »

TruthBringer;1315190 wrote: You're not doing the math right.

You're looking at it in terms of Satan being Equal to God. You're not doing the math from a standpoint of subtracting from the source to get a number. You're looking at it being two sources equal in scope. You're right, it's impossible. There can be only one Source, and the source is God.

It's a line of succession. This is simple math. You subtract downward in a line. The first subtraction of course being Christ. THEN came the Angels. Remember this because it's important if you're going to do the math. You subtract 1 from the POOL. You take 1 slice of the pie and call it 1 slice. You can't have two pieces of apples from the same apple without the apple first being WHOLE. When it was whole, there was no Satan. There was no anything else. When it was sliced, there was a Satan. And then there was a you. Because you came after the Angels did. Part of the reason why so many legends have stated that these "gods" are "jealous" "gods". Of course. Human intellect would tell you that what comes first has priority. Not the case at all. Just because something was first does not mean it takes precedence. "And the first shall be last." Jesus's own words. The first is the last because there is only one. One God. "Satan" is that "God" in the eyes of the clueless. God is God in the eyes of moral people. Same God - different perspective. "Satan" is a fictitious figment of the nonexistent mind. God is all that exists by default. God being everything negates all purpose with the exception of one. Love

The concept of evil is "apparent" to those that believe exists. "Evil" can only be contemplated by nonexistence. It's how you come to read "Judge not and ye shall not be judged" if you're of the care to read the Christian bible
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Post by Bill Sikes »

We're getting off the track a bit here - can we get back to these "Celebrities"?

Have you got a shot of that Doreen Slugsby dancing nekkid around the Maypole?
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Bill Sikes;1315243 wrote: We're getting off the track a bit here - can we get back to these "Celebrities"?

Have you got a shot of that Doreen Slugsby dancing nekkid around the Maypole?


I'm not sure if it matters anyways. I spoke to Steve Quayle from Steve Quayle.com through email and he claims that he covered the Satanism behind the Music Industry subject years ago. If that's true, then it appears that barely a single Soul ever cared enough to take him serious. And if that's true, than I guess I should expect the same. Or at least if anyone did take him serious...it wasn't enough to gain the attention of the masses. Because until my own studies I have never spoken to another person in my lifetime or ever heard about another person in my lifetime ever speaking about Satanism and the Music Industry. Ever. So by logical conclusion that tells me that even if the problem is real (And I believe it is) there just aren't enough people to give a ****. And they continue to buy the music and worship the certain celebrities through buying magazines written all about them and by sitting in front of the tv for hours listening to people talk about them. Or by going to yahoo news and finding that there is 70% news at times which is strictly celebrity related. That is quite a disturbing thought indeed. It does appear that our nation is a nation of fools. For the most part. Not entirely. And they're still my family under God, but they are definitely playing the part of the fool right now. And for the record, Brittany Spears as far as I know has not shaved her head again. Not yet anyways.
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Post by Snowfire »

TruthBringer;1315284 wrote: I spoke to Steve Quayle from Steve Quayle.com through email and he claims that he covered the Satanism behind the Music Industry subject years ago. If that's true, then it appears that barely a single Soul ever cared enough to take him serious.


Maybe that's it in a nutshell. There never was anything to take seriously in the first place. Trying to decipher messages in backward music just doesnt add up. How many hours did people troll through before they came up with a sound that they distinguished as an audible word or phrase. I'm sure the same intense scrutiny would find phrases that laud the art of medieval embroidery, if we have long enough. Its just coincidence that some words said/sung backwards, sound like certain words. Just as the ghost hunter listening to the white noise hears distinguishable names. Its just chance.

I think your chasing your tail and maybe Steve Quayle realised he wasnt catching his
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Post by TruthBringer »

Snowfire;1315288 wrote: Maybe that's it in a nutshell. There never was anything to take seriously in the first place. Trying to decipher messages in backward music just doesnt add up. How many hours did people troll through before they came up with a sound that they distinguished as an audible word or phrase. I'm sure the same intense scrutiny would find phrases that laud the art of medieval embroidery, if we have long enough. Its just coincidence that some words said/sung backwards, sound like certain words. Just as the ghost hunter listening to the white noise hears distinguishable names. Its just chance.

I think your chasing your tail and maybe Steve Quayle realised he wasnt catching his


Well you don't need to waste your time on me because I am already convinced that there is massive Satanism in the Music Industry. But like I said I may be one of the few who believes that. Even with all of the evidence that just about proves it. But now is not the time of honesty on the planet. Not at all. So I focus on what's important...and flow down the stream towards December 21st, 2012.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Seeing as how "satan" doesn't exist what you have are individual beliefs in which needs to be assessed upon an individual basis. Considering it's highly immoral to imprison anyone before they commit a crime might I suggest "satanism" has no value whatsoever.

They're individuals in which you wish to revoke their right to free speech
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Post by TruthBringer »

K.Snyder;1315351 wrote: Seeing as how "satan" doesn't exist what you have are individual beliefs in which needs to be assessed upon an individual basis. Considering it's highly immoral to imprison anyone before they commit a crime might I suggest "satanism" has no value whatsoever.

They're individuals in which you wish to revoke their right to free speech


He does exist, that's where you're wrong. And you're talking crazy talk. No one said anything about taking away free speech.
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Post by K.Snyder »

TruthBringer;1315362 wrote: He does exist, that's where you're wrong. And you're talking crazy talk. No one said anything about taking away free speech.


You'll forgive me when I ask what your agenda is with "Celebrities In Secret Societies And Satanism" if you do not mind everyone's right to free speech.

Criminal awareness? That can't be true because of freedom of speech. Anything else is a police action. All I see here is a viewpoint with heavy religious connotations.

Even if these people influenced others to murder, taking away everyone's right to free speech is far more costly.
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Post by TruthBringer »

K.Snyder;1315771 wrote: You'll forgive me when I ask what your agenda is with "Celebrities In Secret Societies And Satanism" if you do not mind everyone's right to free speech.

Criminal awareness? That can't be true because of freedom of speech. Anything else is a police action. All I see here is a viewpoint with heavy religious connotations.

Even if these people influenced others to murder, taking away everyone's right to free speech is far more costly.


Like I said it doesn't matter if no one speaks out against it. I love my free speech. But that's slowly becoming a thing of the past too. What I don't like is the fact that we have murdering loving Satanists in the Music Industry putting subliminal messages in their music and promoting things that should be illegal. I believe the Music Industry should be regulated to a degree. Absolutely. Kids listen to it. And they hear some of the most horrible things sometimes even when tuning through the radio.

If Music is this bad now, I wonder just how bad it would be in 10-20 years if the Solar Storm/Pole-Shift wasn't coming. Thank God for God. Let's put it that way.
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Post by Clodhopper »

I'd say Grand Theft Auto is worse than any music out there for corrupting the young!
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Post by K.Snyder »

TruthBringer;1315786 wrote: Like I said it doesn't matter if no one speaks out against it. I love my free speech. But that's slowly becoming a thing of the past too. What I don't like is the fact that we have murdering loving Satanists in the Music Industry putting subliminal messages in their music and promoting things that should be illegal. I believe the Music Industry should be regulated to a degree. Absolutely. Kids listen to it. And they hear some of the most horrible things sometimes even when tuning through the radio.

If Music is this bad now, I wonder just how bad it would be in 10-20 years if the Solar Storm/Pole-Shift wasn't coming. Thank God for God. Let's put it that way.


It doesn't matter because the collective society defines "bad". The difference in the levels are dictated by the people that listen to it. The music speaks from the culture the culture doesn't speak from the music. You've it backwards.

The numbers could only increase if society allows it to because of the freedom to say whatever anyone wants. Prohibiting any form of speech negates that which is a far worse consequence. It's that simple

All you can do is to not listen to it and prove by example in all that you do, not to post about "Celebrities In Secret Societies And Satanism" because it's useless
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Post by K.Snyder »

Clodhopper;1315885 wrote: I'd say Grand Theft Auto is worse than any music out there for corrupting the young!


It's interesting because I've played it and laughed and laughed and laughed at the ridiculousness of it which creates a further dislike for what it portrays.
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Post by Clodhopper »

How old were you at the time you played it?

My concern is that unlike tv, you are an active participant in a computer game. I worry that for young people, especially vulnerable young people, this is in some senses a rehearsal. When they meet a real life situation where they can stamp someone's head to a bloody puddle they've already done it so it's no big deal to do it again....
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Post by gmc »

I think we should arrange a forumgarden get together for truthbringer in the early part of 2011 in order to cheer him up because the world hasn't ended.
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Post by Clodhopper »

I think we should arrange a forumgarden get together for truthbringer in the early part of 2011 in order to cheer him up because the world hasn't ended.


Just to inject some real gloom and despondency, I'm not sure the world hasn't already ended. We just haven't noticed it yet.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
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Post by Snowfire »

gmc;1316025 wrote: I think we should arrange a forumgarden get together for truthbringer in the early part of 2011 in order to cheer him up because the world hasn't ended.


Maybe we should ask TB if he can make December 21st, 2012. Seems a good day for a get together
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Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1316030 wrote: Just to inject some real gloom and despondency, I'm not sure the world hasn't already ended. We just haven't noticed it yet.


You mean you're in forum hell?

posted by snowfire

Maybe we should ask TB if he can make December 21st, 2012. Seems a good day for a get together




Is that when it is all supposed to end? How about the 31st? we can first foot him and have wild party to celebrate the end of winter.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Clodhopper;1315999 wrote: How old were you at the time you played it?

My concern is that unlike tv, you are an active participant in a computer game. I worry that for young people, especially vulnerable young people, this is in some senses a rehearsal. When they meet a real life situation where they can stamp someone's head to a bloody puddle they've already done it so it's no big deal to do it again....
Well I was about 17 when the very original came out but the game was far less animated. The subject people used as their alter-ego in this particular one was viewed from above and showed a dot like figure running about with arms and legs conversly enough petruding the likes of his/her sides. If that wasn't funny enough it gets better.

Driving along the road in a square automobile only to then run over another dot, which one could only relate to themselves as par the game, squishing the seemingly unfortunates into that very same "bloody puddle" you speak of.

Baseball bats and guns that show up in slow motion is added incentive for an obviously gifted sense of humor.

I can go on but I'm afraid I might leap out of my classroom door and beat the tar out of somebody with a baseball bat and blame it on Babe Ruth
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Kathy Ellen;1314006 wrote: Oh, for flip sake...why don't you all leave the man alone, and let him post away. I don't see you all going after Coberst who posts a million threads and hardly speaks or converses with anyone.....AND...he posts the same 'stuff' on tons of other sites:(...He copies and pastes...copies and pastes....copies and pastes.... ad nauseam. I'd rather talk with someone who will converse.



Truthbringer is genuinely concerned about our world, and he means well. Argue with him all you want, but respect his opinion. Stop talking down to him please.



That's the proper thing to do, I think:-6


Just a few thoughts to some members here on TB's thread who think "I'm butting in and telling you that you have no right to question Truthbringer."



I apologize that I didn't make myself clear. You certainly have the right to question everything that doesn't make sense to you. You have the right to question everything that TB says and argue all of your points.



I made this statement in TB's thread because I felt that this man was expressing his opinion as other members here do in certain threads...like the religion thread, and you don't question them. I just wonder why you let others post away and not TB?



Why do you question him and not others?
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Post by Clodhopper »

Well I was about 17 when the very original came out but the game was far less animated. The subject people used as their alter-ego in this particular one was viewed from above and showed a dot like figure running about with arms and legs conversly enough petruding the likes of his/her sides. If that wasn't funny enough it gets better.

Driving along the road in a square automobile only to then run over another dot, which one could only relate to themselves as par the game, squishing the seemingly unfortunates into that very same "bloody puddle" you speak of.

Baseball bats and guns that show up in slow motion is added incentive for an obviously gifted sense of humor.

I can go on but I'm afraid I might leap out of my classroom door and beat the tar out of somebody with a baseball bat and blame it on Babe Ruth


:wah:

Just wait 'til I get my video camera. We could make a fortune on a happy slap site.

No, I imagine you are safe enough.



But the more modern versions of the game are graphically much more advanced than the old dot-with-arms, and a computer game requires a much more active participation than watching tv does. The old studies of tv violence never showed a definite related increase in violence in the tv watcher. I just wonder whether the more active participation required by a computer game is the difference between the two situations that leads to an increase in violence.

I think I'm also affected in my opinion by having seen some underage children playing the game. Watching a 12 year old boy stamping on an innocent's head and giggling is not pleasant. Even if it is only on a screen. The boy in question is unaffected (as far as I know), but I can think of kids I've worked with I would be very much less sure about.

Or perhaps my real concern is with the effects on a middle aged man watching all this!
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Post by Snowfire »

Kathy Ellen;1316152 wrote: Just a few thoughts to some members here on TB's thread who think "I'm butting in and telling you that you have no right to question Truthbringer."



I apologize that I didn't make myself clear. You certainly have the right to question everything that doesn't make sense to you. You have the right to question everything that TB says and argue all of your points.



I made this statement in TB's thread because I felt that this man was expressing his opinion as other members here do in certain threads...like the religion thread, and you don't question them. I just wonder why you let others post away and not TB?



Why do you question him and not others?


I for one , very often do. Ive rumbled about clumsily in the religious threads, Mikiel thread for one. Coberst I have questioned a few times. Conspiricy theories Ive posted in, especially the ones about the US not landing on the moon. That one gets my goat. Many choose not to take up the invitation to argue the point - at least TB does

So I think thats your critisism is little unfair
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Post by Clodhopper »

I think there's a tendency to take the mickey out of TB which Kathy Ellen doesn't like. It's quite clear that he means nothing but good in a general way and strikes me as considerably less sinister than some. I don't much care for the mickey taking myself; but if you post about this sort of thing you've got to expect it and TB, to his credit, seems to cope. chuckle. At least, it hasn't shut him up!

The more sinister sort are fair game in my opinion.

Take an elephant gun

For added fun

But a decent rifle

Will thoroughly stifle

Contrary opinion. ;)
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Post by gmc »

Kathy Ellen;1316152 wrote: Just a few thoughts to some members here on TB's thread who think "I'm butting in and telling you that you have no right to question Truthbringer."



I apologize that I didn't make myself clear. You certainly have the right to question everything that doesn't make sense to you. You have the right to question everything that TB says and argue all of your points.



I made this statement in TB's thread because I felt that this man was expressing his opinion as other members here do in certain threads...like the religion thread, and you don't question them. I just wonder why you let others post away and not TB?



Why do you question him and not others?


He's posting his opinion but also offering evidence to back it up. I asked him if he actually believed it and he replied

What's there to believe? The evidence is right in front of your face......


So to me it's open to question his belief because quite frankly the evidence is bunkum and he appeared up for discussion and seemed to be enjoying himself. I assume he would go away of he wasn't.

It wasn't until you made your comment that the thread got derailed and suddenly coberst was being discussed what did he have to do with the subject of the thread? It went bitchy for a while and then went back to the matter at hand and it was truthbringer that brought it back on subject - presumably because it was something he was interested in doing - and rumbled on with more people joining in.

Basically you came in to thread you weren't interested in participating in and asked why were we arguing ( and having fun,) about the subject matter and apparently ganging up on truthbringer - as you saw it. Truthbringer is a grown up he can presumably defend himself quite well or would go away if he was offended so why did you feel the need to butt in on his behalf? If he wants to discuss it why are you complaining when he gets the dialogue he wants. Basically you caused disruption and aggravation where none had existed. Passionate disagreement is not synonymous with dislike and disrespect. You can disrespect someone beliefs, especially when they are load of cobblers, it doesn't mean you disrespect the person or think they shouldn't be entitled to their opinion. There are many people whose opinions I vehemently disagree with it doesn't mean I don't respect them.

As to those who post and don't want to enter in to dialogue I don't waste my time worrying about it I jut stop looking at their threads. Coberst occasionally enters in to dialogue most times he doesn't bother so I don't bother reading his threads very often.

Religious threads are awkward, some people you can agree to disagree with and have amicable discussion with. Some take the view that my religious view should not be questioned and you have no right to do so. I have very little tolerance for those who believe their religion somehow makes them superior. I don't waste my time with them cos there's no point, you can't discuss with people who don't want to do so. The forum is entertainment I've got real life to worry about.

Obviously I am speaking for myself in what I've just posted. But you did ask. If don't want to partake why jump in to a thread to object and suggest they shouldn't be arguing when that is the whole point?

posted by clodhopper

But the more modern versions of the game are graphically much more advanced than the old dot-with-arms, and a computer game requires a much more active participation than watching tv does. The old studies of tv violence never showed a definite related increase in violence in the tv watcher. I just wonder whether the more active participation required by a computer game is the difference between the two situations that leads to an increase in violence.

I think I'm also affected in my opinion by having seen some underage children playing the game. Watching a 12 year old boy stamping on an innocent's head and giggling is not pleasant. Even if it is only on a screen. The boy in question is unaffected (as far as I know), but I can think of kids I've worked with I would be very much less sure about.

Or perhaps my real concern is with the effects on a middle aged man watching all this!


What about things like power rangers. I once saw a six year old do a roundhouse kick on his toddler brother then realised they were just playing power rangers and taking turn about to kick each other. When I was a kid we all played at being soldiers and cowboys and indians and got in to very real fights but you never saw anyone killed falling off a roof because they were pretending to be superman. Kids have always fantasised and been able to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, all that's changes is there is more fantasy around.
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Post by Clodhopper »

What about things like power rangers. I once saw a six year old do a roundhouse kick on his toddler brother then realised they were just playing power rangers and taking turn about to kick each other. When I was a kid we all played at being soldiers and cowboys and indians and got in to very real fights but you never saw anyone killed falling off a roof because they were pretending to be superman. Kids have always fantasised and been able to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, all that's changes is there is more fantasy around.


I also remember the story of the slightly overheated journo asking a 6 year old if she wasn't upset by the horrible things Jerry did to Tom, and the little girl replying, with the serene superiority only a child can manage, "Don't worry, it isn't real." :wah:

It was all Kung Fu and Bruce Lee when I were a nipper (says Clodhopper, using his Zimmer frame as a Nunchuk* or whatever it was called).

I suppose I'm just oversensitive in the matter. chuckle. I find it hard to play the "evil" version of a computer game. Makes me feel queasy.

"Butt kicking for goodness!"



(*Nunchuk (n.): Obscure Catholic sport played in seminaries.)
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Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1316203 wrote: I also remember the story of the slightly overheated journo asking a 6 year old if she wasn't upset by the horrible things Jerry did to Tom, and the little girl replying, with the serene superiority only a child can manage, "Don't worry, it isn't real." :wah:

It was all Kung Fu and Bruce Lee when I were a nipper (says Clodhopper, using his Zimmer frame as a Nunchuk* or whatever it was called).

I suppose I'm just oversensitive in the matter. chuckle. I find it hard to play the "evil" version of a computer game. Makes me feel queasy.

"Butt kicking for goodness!"



(*Nunchuk (n.): Obscure Catholic sport played in seminaries.)


:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl (just got the nunchuk joke )
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Thank you for your response gmc.



I absolutely do not agree with anything that you've said. I actually did have some thoughts that I wanted to post to Truthbringer about his ideas, but chose not to when I read some of the posts in this thread.



I will bow out of this thread as you and I will never, ever agree on anything.
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Post by gmc »

Kathy Ellen;1316339 wrote: Thank you for your response gmc.



I absolutely do not agree with anything that you've said. I actually did have some thoughts that I wanted to post to Truthbringer about his ideas, but chose not to when I read some of the posts in this thread.



I will bow out of this thread as you and I will never, ever agree on anything.


Sorry you feel that way about it kathy. It would be surprising if we agreed on everything in fact there are quite a few people on this forum I don't agree with and there's probably quite a few that don't agree with me and probably think I am a complete pillock. I originally joined this forum to join in and discuss not to get everybody to agree with me or to end up agreeing with them. You should just have gone ahead and posted what you wanted at least it might have added to the discussion rather than disrupting it putting in a post suggesting we all stop discussing the matter in case it hurts his feelings. I doubt he needs anyone to defend him. If you don't like discussion and want everybody to agree then keep away from threads where you know people are unlikely to end up in agreement. It's a bit silly to bow out just because you think someone won't agree with you. It's your loss not mine.
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Post by Clodhopper »

(Musing...)

I wonder if one the the problems we have in cross-pond relationships is that English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh are still all fighting the Battle of Brunanburh and are entirely used to a thoroughly robust exchange of views. You can still see the ancient kingdoms of Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia and Wessex in our regional English identities today. The modern achievement is to get that conflict down to verbal sparring in the drawing room. On the whole. Touch wood.

In contrast, the American experience/tradition is of co-operation against hostile external forces. Oh, think of Dire Straits' Telegraph Road for a decent summary of the sort of thing I'm thinking about. (Sorry, TB;))

I'm not sure how far this idea can be pushed - if indeed it has anywhere to go - but I do wonder if we come across to Americans as terribly aggressive when to other Brits we're just coming across as ordinarily straightforward...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Clodhopper;1316181 wrote: :wah:

Just wait 'til I get my video camera. We could make a fortune on a happy slap site.

No, I imagine you are safe enough.



But the more modern versions of the game are graphically much more advanced than the old dot-with-arms, and a computer game requires a much more active participation than watching tv does. The old studies of tv violence never showed a definite related increase in violence in the tv watcher. I just wonder whether the more active participation required by a computer game is the difference between the two situations that leads to an increase in violence.

I think I'm also affected in my opinion by having seen some underage children playing the game. Watching a 12 year old boy stamping on an innocent's head and giggling is not pleasant. Even if it is only on a screen. The boy in question is unaffected (as far as I know), but I can think of kids I've worked with I would be very much less sure about.

Or perhaps my real concern is with the effects on a middle aged man watching all this!


Well I can honestly say this sort of thing is incredibly tasteless I admit and the only time my I try my hand at it is when my nephews are visiting and playing the game(I purchased the game roughly 4 years ago). The moral of the storyline likes to portray a socially impaired figure in this particular game. There's even a basketball court within it where the person can pick the ball up and shoot around but it's merely there as a form of symbolism. Yes, I'd say purchasing the game would say alot about one's class.

On that it's easy to relate this with "ancient" Greece, particularly in Sparta. If not for the guns and knives in the world they wouldn't show up in the game. The game might be say soccer, or football, or art, music...

But that's not entirely true...

All one need do is wave a stick around being completely convinced it's a sword. Or even a stick for that matter so long as it proves it's purpose.

So the argument is that this allows one to not have to physically expend their energy to partake in gross ventures. This "influences children to do wrong because they observe no future consequence as a result".

There is always an authority figure in the eyes of a child because they're uneducated. When the video games, or what have you, serves in that role defines a complete lack of interest for those responsible in the consequences of this child's actions as an adult. That society is the majority. The minority creates the video games so they're not to blame.

Taking away the freedom of speech because of the minority is indefinitely horrendous therefore it must be concluded that the blame lies in the hands of those unwilling to show there children love enough to not allow them to be influenced by the "distaste". It's the involvement in their lives that shows them the consequences not the genre of the "distaste".

Involving one's self with their child's life is as much love as anyone could extend to that child. The involvement then serves to give suggestions to that child of the virtues held by the adult. The child then acts out of impulse and mimics what the adult does and then they decide where their preferences lie. The minority that makes the game is irrelevant because the majority always has the power to prevent undesirable effects. Taking away the freedom of speech of a minority is virtually impossible because by definition "minority" speaks on it's own behalf simply because they exist.

The answer is to teach a child how to not view anything in bad taste. It's all there is
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Post by Clodhopper »

Not sure I entirely followed you there, but if I've understood you correctly then yes, good parenting will generally lead to a situation where a child knows right from wrong at quite an early age. In this sort of case, a game like GTA is very, very unlikely to have a bad effect. Arguably even the opposite, I suppose.

But in cases of bad parenting, where the child has an underdeveloped or warped morality, the validation of immoral behaviour provided by the game is at least an area that would be worth keeping an eye on.

Agree that a perfectly legal product should not be banned simply because I don't like it or because of a potential behavioural issue. Something would have to be proved.

Worth remembering, as well, that no child ought to be playing the game at all, according to the recommedend age bit...
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They Sold Their Souls For Rock and Roll:

They Sold Their Souls for Rock and Roll Part 1 - 4

They Sold Their Souls for Rock and Roll Part 2 - 4

They Sold Their Souls for Rock and Roll Part 3 - 4

They Sold Their Souls for Rock and Roll Part 4 - 4
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Post by TruthBringer »

From the bible:

14:12 "How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations."

(Isaiah, Judaica Press Tanakh)

The meaning of the word “Lucifer” is “light-bearer.” The Scriptural basis for applying this name to Satan can be found in Isaiah 14:12. The Catholic Douay-Rheims version translates “Day Star” as “Lucifer,” whereas the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version (RSV CE) uses the more linguistically accurate “Day Star.” In the literal sense of the scripture verse, the Babylonian empire is being referenced. However, in the spiritual sense, the Church has long recognized that the passage speaks of a fallen angel, namely Satan:



“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!” (RSV CE).



A New Testament passage that somewhat parallels the spiritual sense of Isaiah 14:12 can be found in Luke 10:18 which states:

“And he said to them, ‘I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.’”

For more reading on the angels, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 391-95, 414, and 760. See also the entry for “Demons” in the Catechism’s Index.
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In contrast with the good qualities, the evil and the indifferent ones originate not in the goodness and wisdom of God, whose substance underlies the universe, but in the blindness and willfulness of certain spiritual entities.

True "Angels of Light" are spirits, upon whom great power, wisdom and holiness have been bestowed by God.

The word Angel means "messenger", for the most frequent role of angels is that of messengers and mediators between the PLEROMA and the world of humans.

There are supposably nine orders or "choirs" of angels: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions (or Dominations), Virtues, Powers, Principalities (Kingdoms), Archangels and Angels. The canonical scriptures mention three angels by name: the Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Raphael. The Gnostic church adds to these a fourth: Uriel. Gnostic scriptures mention most of these angels and add numerous others such as the rescuer of Gnostics, Eleleth, and many others.

Positive Angels help Humans by praying for them, by acting as messengers between the PLEROMA and our earthly dwelling place, and by serving as our guardian angels.

Guardian angels pray for us, protect us from spiritual harm (or at times also from physical harm).

The visitation of the Holy Virgin Mary by the Archangel Gabriel and the revelation of the Koran to Mohammed by the same Archangel are two examples of Angels who were supposed to have been seen.

There are spiritual beings who have become estranged from God and from the PLEROMA and who are thus at best unwise and at worst evil.

They are found primarily in connection with the material universe and its mental and emotional aspects, for they are primarily responsible for the creation and management of the negative realms and for the suffering and sorrow that abide therein.

Another much older name for Lucifer/Satan was Demiurge or "half-maker" because he was supposed to have taken the divine substance and fashioned out of it a world. He is the spiritual being who had become forgetful of his origins, even of God. He thinks that he is God and there is no other God before him.

In Gnostic scriptures he is called YALDABAOTH (child of chaos), SACLAS (fool) and SAMAEL (blind one). Later he was at times identified with LUCIFER or SATAN, the prince of the powers of air.

It has been said by some that not all of the images of God in the Old Testament come from the same source, and that a good many are descriptions of the Demiurge. There are some people who claim that some, such as those in the Wisdom Literature and in some Psalms, are of a much more exalted nature. In fact, there are some Gnostic teachers who held that the teachings of the Old Testament were a mixture attributable to three sources: the Demiurge, the elders of Israel and the True God.

Aside from Lucifer (Also known as Demiurge and or Satan) There is suppose to exist monstrosities of evil which populate hellish regions in association with earth. Their origins are unknown. The name of one demon mentioned in Gnostic scriptures is YACHTANABAS, although there are others.
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According to Greek philosophy the Demiurge (The Devil) is not necessarily identical with God, and he may be distinct from and inferior to the supreme spirit, though he may also be the practical expression of the reason of God, the Logos as operative in the harmony of the universe. In this sense, i.e. that of a world-maker distinct from the Supreme God, Demiurge became a common term in Gnosticism. The Gnostics, however, were not satisfied merely to emphasize the distinction between the Supreme God, or God the Father, and the Demiurge, but in many of their systems they conceived the relation of the Demiurge to the Supreme God as one of actual antagonism, and the Demiurge became the personification of the power of evil, the Satan, with whom the faithful had to wage war to the end that they might be pleasing to the Good God.

The term Demiurge became still more complicated when in some systems he was identified with the Old Testament, and was brought in opposition to Christ of the New Testament, the Only-Begotten Son of the Supreme and Good God. The purpose of Christ's coming as Saviour and Redeemer (According to the New Testament) was to rescue us from the power of the Demiurge, the lord of the world of this darkness, and bring us to the light of the Good God, His Father in heaven.
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Some more stuff relating to Lucifer/Satan (The Dark Angel):

Satan is said to be an angel (Job 1-2). God is supposed to have made him before the world began (Job 38:4-7). Satan is said to be very powerful and very wise But he became the first sinner (1 John 3:Cool. Apparently at one point in the past (or possibly future) he led a rebellion in heaven against God (Revelation 12:7). In Satan’s fall, he drew a vast number of angels with him (Revelation 12:4, 9). Some of the fallen angels are loose and some are bound in a place called the Abyss (Luke 8:31). The loose ones we call "demons". Of the bound ones, there are two kinds, permanently bound (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) and temporarily bound (Revelation 9:1-11). Satan and his demons now wage war against God’s kingdom (Revelation 12:17). Satan now dwells on earth (Job 1:7). At the Second Coming of Christ, he will be bound for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). After the thousand years, he will be set free for a short time and will go out to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:7-9). The devil’s final end will be in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), which was prepared by God for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).
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