In the past , Much has been written about The Shroud Of Turin . It is called The Shroud Of Turin '' , Because Turin is the name of a city in Italy , Where this Burial Cloth is kept . There are many Discrepancies , As to The Authenticity of this Burial Cloth ; Some say that it is True .... Others say that it is False . Yet , How many of you know about this Christian Relic ? Not Many Of You Do !!! Sinologists , Scientists , Anthropologist and the likes are all Fumbling around , And Guessings in their Laboratories trying to Concoct reasons why people should Believe and Worship The Shroud , Why ? So that they would have some other way to make you spend your money . Now by the mere mention of this word '' Shroud '' , You should pose questions in your minds as to it's Authenticity . The question that you should be asking concerning this definition is .... Why Did They Use The Name Shroud ? Why Couldn't It Have Been Called Something Else Beside Shroud , Especially If It Claimed Such A '' Holy Christian '' Relic ? I'll Tell You Why !!
Because whenever The Luciferians is trying to deceive you ; He puts in a little Truth , Within his lie ; Here In Lies The Truth ! Just by the fact that '' Shroud '' Means to protect or to Conceal 'The Luciferians are telling you that he is trying to protect something about whether it is His Lies or Concealing something anout The Truth . The Truth to the matter is ; The Shroud Is Nothing But A Hoax ! Not only am I saying this , But so are your Scientists Ler take a look as the following articles . Shroud Of Turin Mystery Solved History's Most Electrifying Image Was Made 600 Years Ago ... By Ragan Dunn . The Face Of Christ ? The Worlds Famous Shroud Of Turin Is At The Center Of Controversy In Europe . French Historian Paul Cabart Disputes The Belief That The Image Is 2,000 Years Old . It's Only 600 Years Old , He Claim .
The worse thing about The Shroud is the fact , That There Are 42 Of Them . It might have sounded more Believable If There Were Only One . Or Maybe Two Of Them , But 42 ? How Is It That They Know Which On Is The Authentic One . Does The Shroud Have Any Spiritual Signifcance ? No !!! Why do people who call themselves learnt , And strict adherents of the Scriptures consider The Shroud So Holy And Sanctified ? The Shroud Is A Piece Of Vloth , With An Image , Which means that these learnt Scholars are ignoring the laws , And commandments of The Scriptures . The Scriptures specifically states not To Worship Or Bow Down To Graven Images ( Idols ) Exodus 20 ; 4 - 5 .
Exodus 20 ; 4 - 5 ( Modern Hebrew Script )
You Will Not Make For Yourself And 'Idol' At All , Any 'Likeness 'In The 'Skies Above 'Or That Is In The Planet Earth From Beneath Or In The Waters From Under The Planet Earth . You Will Not Prostrate Yourself To Them , Nor Serve ' Them ; For I A Yahuwa Eloheek Am A Jealous ' El The One Visiting The Iniquity ' Of The Father Upon The Children Up To The Third And Fourth Generation Of Them That Hate ' Me !
( Mistranslation For King James 1611 A.D. )
Thou Shalt Not Make Unto Thee Any Graven Image , Or Any Likeness Of Anything That Is In The Heaven Above , Or That Is In The Earth Beneath , Or That Is In The Water Under The Earth
; Thous Shalt Not Bow Down Thyself To Them , Or Serve Them ; For I , The Sustainer They Creator Am A Jealous Creator . Visiting The Iniquity Of The Father Upon The Children Unto The Third And Fourth Generation Of Them That Hate Me ' .
Why Do You Worship The Shroud ? Why Do You Worship Those Statues And Pictures Of Jesus As '' God '' ? You May Say That The Shroud Is Not A Graven Image . However , They Way You Make The Shroud Or Any Other Picture A Graven Image Is By Saying That Jesus ( Whose Image You Christian Say Is On The Shroud ) Is '' God '' Had You Said That The Image On The Shroud Was Only Am Image Of Yashua ( Jesus ) And Not The '' Heavenly Father '' , There Would Be No Problem , The Sin Comes In When You Give The Creator An Image ; He Is Not Yashua ( Jesus ) . The Shroud Of Turin Is Not The Image Of Yashu's ( Jesus ) , Whom You Believe Was '' God '' Manifested In The Flesh .
The Shroud Of Turin Is nothing but a big Farce To Deceive You Shroudists Claim The Blood And Burial Spices On Judas' ( Who They Though Was Yashu'a ) Body , Interacted And Caused An Image Of The Shroud ; However , The Image on The Shroud Of Turin would not have been as precise as they made it seem . Just by the mere fact that The Shroud was wrapped around the body , Would tell you a complete . Undistorted Head - To - Toe Image would be impossible to obtain . The Bible speaks about Burial Clothes , But they never mentioned The Burial Clother as being marked , Or printed on . Since everything else about Yashu'a ( Jesus ) is documented ; wouldn't you think , That this type of information should have been recorded ?
What Is The Meaning Of The Word '' Shroud ? According To The ''American Heritage Dictionary '' The Word '' Shroud '' Is Defined As ; Shroud -- 1 . ( Noun ) A Cloth Used To Wrap A Body For Burial ; Winging Sheet . 2 . Something That Conceals , Protects , Or Screens In The Manner Of A Garment . Shroud -- 1 . ( Verb ) To Wrap ( Corpse ) In Burial Clothing . 2 . To Envelope , Screen ; Hide .
Exactly What Is The Shroud Of Turin ? Christians claim that The Shroud Of Turin is the identical Shroud that the body of Yashu'a was laid in after his supposed Crucifixion ; It measures approximately 14 Feet , and 3 Inches Long , By 3 Feet And 1 Inch Wide . This Cloth is made of a mixture of Cotton , And Linen Woven In A Herringbone Pattern Which is according to Textile Experts , It is identical in Material , And it Weaves into many Fabrics from the near East of The First and Third Century . This piece of Linen is Ivory in color , Almost Yellow , And it has Burn Marks , Which run down it's Sides , As a result of a Fire . Which occurred in the year 1532 A.D. Water Marks which resemble rough cut diamonds , Are still visible of The Shroud from when the fire was extinguished . Visible are the marks from Triangular Linen Patches which were applied to the Worst Burns by Nuns from Sainte Claire - En - Ville . Other Marks appearing on The Shroud are Two Faint Images Of A Body .
Shroudists states that this Cloth had been Laid Length Wise On The Body - Beginning At The Heels , And Proceeding Up The Back , To The Base Of The Skull , Over The Head And Down To The Toes , The Picture Portrayed On The Shroud Is Of A Man With An Owl - Shaped Face ; Eyes Opened , And A Long Nose . The Mouth Is Only A Smudge Beneath The Nostrils . The Hair Appeared To Be Long , And Stringy , Hanging To The Shoulders . The Only Other Visible Point On The Body Are The Hands , Which Apparently Were Folder Over The Loins . Also On The Shroud Are The Dull Red Stains Of Blood ( Or At Least What Some Think Is Bloods ) . The Supposed Gash On The Victim's Side Resulted In The Most Bleeding . The Blood Had Gathered Around The Hole , The Side Of The Body , And The Small Of The Back . Dully Wrapped , The Body Was Temporarily Placed ( According To Christians ) In A Narrow Tomb , The Property Of Joseph Of Arimathea .
Shroudists say that this representation of Yashu'a was his way of leaving A '' Visual Record Of What Happened To Him In The Bloody Hours Of His Death.'' The Shroud Of Turin was introduced in The Mid - 14th Century , In a Town Of Lirey , France . This Shroud was first discovered by a famous French Knight , By the name of Geoffrey l De Charney . It is not quite clear how he gained possession of The Shroud . It has been said that he won it as a '' Spoil Of Battle '' ( In The Crusade Of 1346 A.D. ) ; And his granddaughter holds to this claim , But his son claims that it was given to him as a gift . So it stands vague as to where he first obtained The Shroud . However , A few years after Geoffrey l De Charney founded The Monastery Of Lirey ( 1353 A.D. ) , He presented it with The Shroud .
In the year ( 1452 A.D. ) , Margaret De Charney , The granddaughter of Geoffrey De Charney ,
She was at the time the only Survivor Of The Family , And Consequently . The last Legitimate Owner Of The Shroud , And she took The Relic to The Court of Chambery , Where she presented it to Ann of Lusignan , Wife of Louis , Duke of Savoy . From then on , It has belonged to The House Of Savoy . Duke Louis of Savoy , Built A Special Church At The Champelle Where The Shroud Had Been Glorifed By The Catholic Church . In 1532 A.D. A fire broke out in The Sacristy Of Saint Chapel , At Chambery , And Before The Christians were able to retrieve The Shroud m Drops of Molten Siver from its Casket dropped on The Cloth , And Scorched The Corners of the folds . Large stains were left , As a result of the extinguishing of the fire . There is no earlier record of The Shroud Of Turin that has been documented , Prior to the 14th Century . However , It has been said on the year 1204 A.D. The Knight Of The Templars Organization Took Over Constantinople . Among Those Relics That Were Found ,There Was What Was Called A Burial Cloth Which Supposedly Bore , A Complete Head - To - Toe Image Of Jesus . If we were to believe that The Shroud was in Constantinople in 1204 A.D. And then taken during the seize ; What happened between then , And The 14th Century ?
The Mandolin Cloth ~ Also found among The Relics in Constantinople was a Mandylion Cloth which is said to contain only a dacial image of Yashua ( Jesus ) . Christians claim that The Mandylion Cloth first appeared in the possession of Muslims rulers from whom it had been taken by force in the year 944 A.D. However , No other information had ever been recorded to prove whether it was True or not . Contrary to belief , The Shroud Of Turin is one Cloth , And The Mandylion is something totally different . However , Ian Wilson Author of ''' The Shroud Book '' , States that they were really one , And the same . He reports that Christians kept The Shroud up until the destruction of Jerusalem , And after that , It was taken to Edessa , Syria which is now medern day Turkey .
When The King of Edessa had abandoned his Religion , The Christians fear persecution , and the possibility of The Shroud Being Destroyed ; So They Hid It In A Niche , In The City Walls , To Store Out Of Sight , It Was Folded In Fours , So That The Face Was Visible . This Is Why Ian Wilson's Theory Insists , That The Shroud Of Turin , And The Mandylion Cloth Are One And The Same , But Many People Did Not Agree , So , Ian Wilson Concluded , It Seems That Only The Founder Of The Shroud Would Be Able To Tell The Difference Between The Two Ian Wilson Also States That During The 14th Century , When The Shroud First Came Into Existence , The People Of Byzantine Manufactured Many Cloths Which Were Like The Mandylion Cloth In Which It Would Be Regarded , As Miraculously Produced . In Fact , The Shroud Of Turin Is So Popular . That As I Have Stated Previously . [ There Are 42 Shrouds Claiming Authenticity ] . The Shroud Is Know By Italians As The Santa Sindae , Or The Holy Shroud . It Is Kept Within Turin's Cathedral Of St . John The Baptist . It Lies Rolled Around A Velvet Staff . And It Is Wrapped In Red Silk , Within A Four Feet Long Wooden Caslet Ornamented In Silver , With Emblems Of The Passion '' , Or '' Sufferings Of Christ '' .
The casket is kept within an Iron Chest , Weapped in Asbestors which come from ; Middle English asbestus , from Latin asbestos , mineral or gem , from Greek , mineral or gem , and means '' fibrous mineral forms of impure magnesium silicate , used for fireproofing , electrical insulation , building materials , brake linings , and chemical filters . And it is Sealed by three locks , Each requiring a separate Key . The Iron Chest is within a Wooden Box with a Painted Cover . The Cover is all that is visible and behind the Two Iron Grilles in The Upper '' Sepulcher '' Section Of The Alter , The Shroud Is Stored , Since 1694 A.D. The Shroud has been kept in A Special Shrine , That was Built for an Overview of the high altar in The Cathedral Of Turin ; Italy's North West Region of Piedmont . The Shroud Of Turin is kept in a Silver Chest it is wound on A Roller , And backed by '' Red Silk '' . There is no mystery behind The Shroud Of Turin , Just Lies ! This is a perfect example of how far Christians will go , To Keep their incomplete donctrine ( Christianity ) Alive . Give it Back ! In Time , It will fail because . It lacks a strong foundation , And it lacks Morals . So like a house built on water , It is destined to perish .
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
When Was The First Exposure Of The Shroud ? The first time The Shroud was displayed for the pubic it began in The 1800's A.D. It was shown to the public every year , On May 3rd For '' The Day Of The Invention Of The Cross '' . This was stated by Peter Jenning Author Of '' Face To Face '' With The Shroud '' Other Public showing of The So-called Shroud were in 1804 A.D. For the visiting Pope Pius Vii ; In 1815 A.D. This was for The Celebration of the pontiffs Return to Italy , After his French captivity ; And for the next Three to Four generations , Of the marriages of The Princes , And The Heirs Of The Royal House Of Savoy . The most important Exhibition of The Shroud was in May 1898 A.D. During which time , The Snapshot by a Camera was taken . The Shroud was Exhibited for 8 Days In , Memory of Vitto Emanuel lll , Who was married in 1896 A.D.
This picture of The Shroud was taken by Secondo Pia ( 1855 - 1944 A.D. ) Who was also a lawyer . Two Photographic plates of The Shroud were exposed , So that they could serve as official records , Secondo Pia took the pictures back to his darkroom to prosess . As he poured on the developer , An image appeared , Which had a roundness , A deliecacy , And a molding appeareance on The Photographic plate . Secondo Pia believed he was looking at an image of Jesus . Exposures taken by other Photographers confirmed the Life - Like Impressions . The Photographer prints the film , In irder to get get a positive image . However with The Shroud , The Image was already negative . So when The negative plate was developed , A positive picture appeared . Where everyone was quite surprised . In 1931 A.D. The Shroud was again displayed for The Marriage of Umberto , The Prince of The House Of Savoy . In 1933 A.D. It was viewed for The Celebration of the supposed 19th Centenary of Christ's ,
So-called Crucifixion , On November 23 , 1973 A.D. The public exhibition of The Shroud ( By Permission Of Cardinal Pellegrino Of Turin ) Was not displayed in the usual manner . This time The Shroud was shown by what they call '' The Eye Of Modern Man '' , But we call it Tell - Lie - Vision , That's Right '' Television '' , This viewing of The Shroud was called by The Vatican ( The Roman Catholic Religious Officials ) , A '' Televevision Acts Of Veneration '' , They thought that Television could enable Millions of people , To see The Shroud in detail and with less risk than would be expected at a public exhibition . The Vatican felt that if The Shroud was viewed on Television , It would end all talks , Stating that The Shroud was not Authentic , Obviously it did not ! Presently , The legal owner of The Shroud Of Turin , By heredity , Is The Ex-King , Umberto ll of The House Of Savory . However , He is in exile in Portugal ; Therefore , The person unofficially left in charge is The Cardinal Archbishop of Turin , Monsignor Anastasio Ballastrero .
What Are The Theories Used To Support The Shroud ? Christians have assembled a task force of Scientists , Pathologists , Chemists , Photographic Specialists , Art Historians , Linguists , Bibleical Scholars And Textile Experts so that they can make this '' Mysterious Relic '' Become accepted by the world as The Shroud of Jesus '' , The Following are Techniques , Methods , And Conclusions whech they drew concerning this Christian '' Relic '' .
Anatomy Of The Shroud By ; Joes Luis Carreno , An Accredited Sindonologist ~ According to The Shroud researcher Luis Carreno , The Photographic Negative on the following diagram that appears Positive to our eyes , Has 2 parallel line ( See # 1 ) Which now appears white . These are the scorchings he says , Caused by the over heated metal edge of the Urn which contained The Shroud , During the chambery fire of 1532 A.D. The pair of Dark Triangles ( See # 1 ) Were the patches stitched onto the linen by Nuns , And this was in order to cover the holes made by a drop of Molten Metal , From a corner of the Urn . On the forehead , Appears a drop of blood , Which the researchers say were due to a crown of Thorns ( See # 5 ) . On the right side of the chest is the flow of blood , Which was caused by the thrust of The Soldier's Spear ( See # 8 ) .
The left hand partially conceals the right ( See # 6 ) And Luis Carreno says that The Nail that Affixed Jesus when he was on The Cross , Had to go through The Wrist and not through The Palam of The Hand . Neither Thumb Is Visible , Only 4 Fingers are Visible on each Hand . He also said The Pull on Each Arm on The Cross can be easily Calculated from The Angle formed by the direction of The Blood on The Wrist ( See # 7 ) According to him , The Pull must have been Calculated about 200 Pounds , Again he point out that . The back imprint on The second diagram , Show that The Crown Of Thorns was really A Cap Of Thorns , Pressed over The Entire Head , He claims that The Friction Against The Wood Of The Cross Pushed The Thorns In To The Back Of The Head ( See # 5 ) According to him , Both Shoulders Of Yashu'a Were Bruised By The Crossbeam As It Slid Down His Back ( See # 8 ) And This Was While He Was Carrying It To The Place Of Crucifixion .
Imprints Corresponding To - 1 . Scorching And Parches , 2 . Water , 3 . Body , 4 . Scourges , 5 . Thorns , 6 . Nail ( Wrist ) , 7 . Blood , 8 . Spear Thrust , 9 . Nails ( Feet ) 1 , Imprints Corresponding To - 1 . Scorching And Parches , 2 . Water , 3 . Body , 4 . Scourges , 5 . Thorns , 6 . Blood From Cava Vein After Body Was Taken Down From The , 7 . Nails ( Feet ) , 8 . Crossbeam ( Patibulim ) ...
The researcher , Luis Carreno , Says that The Scourges fell in pair ( See # 4 ) Chiefly on the back and shoulders although they show up over the entire body . Quote ; '' The Scourging Was Methodical ( Systematic ) , Almost Geometrical In Design . It Was Not A Hasty Flogging Administered To A Resisting Criminal . Far From It . Christs Was Scourged So That Pilate , On Resenting This Pitful Spectacle . Could Pacify The Crowd And Avoid Giving A Death Sentence .
He also stated that both feet were probaby Nailed By A Single Nail ( See # 7 ) , The Left Leg Arched Over The Right and that The Stiffness Of Death ( Rigor Mortis ) Kept It Bent in The Tomb . Thus the people of Constantinople thought , That one of The Leg of Their Lord , Was Shorter than the other .
Dr , Pierre Barbet A Paris Surgeon States The Following ; . The Face Shows Several Disfigurements ; A Swelling On The Noserbride And On The Right Cheek , A Contusion Below The Right Eye Socket And On The Left Cheek , Nose And Lower Lip. He Concluded By Stating ; If These Be The Works Of A Forger , He Must Have Been A Super Genius , An Anatomist . A Physiologist And An Artist , A Genius Of Such Unexcelled Quality That He Must Have Been Made To Order , ''
What Dr . Berbet Says Here , Leaves The Impression That He Thinks It Is Impossible For Someone With Those Abilities To Have Existed ; However The Holy Scriptures Clearly Tells Us ;
Matthew 24 ; 24 ( Modern Greek Script )
And In Time There Shall Rise Up Lying Messiah And False Prophets And Shall Have The Power To Do Great Signs And Miracles , So Great That If It Was All Possible They Would Be Able To Deceive The Chosen Ones .
( Mistranslation For Kings James 1611 A.D. )
''For There Shall Arise False Christs And False Prophets , And Shall Shew Great Signs And Wonder ; InSoMuch That , If It Were Possible , They Shall Deceive The Very Elect .
Above ; Close Up Of Crossed Hands On The Shroud , Natural Appearance , Showing Apparent Entry Point Of Nail On Wrist .
Dr Barbet Proceeded To Show How Jesus . Was Nailed To The Cross At The Wrists , By Driying A Nail Through A Part Of Freshly Amputated Hands . And Then By Using The Body Of Another Deceased Patient , From His Hospital In Paris , Dr Barbet Stated That It Is Unlikely That The Cross Had Been Raised , In Which He Had '' Crucified '' The Dead Body Through The Palms And If That's The Case , Then The Nail Would Have Tore Right Through The Palm Of The Hand , The X -Ray That He Made Of A Nail Penetrating The Bony Structure Of The Wrists , Shaowed How Only The Wrists Could Have Sustained The Weight Of The Body . He States That While He Drew A Nail Through The Wrist , The Thumbs , Contracting Under The Spasm Of Torn Nerves And Tendons , Jerked , And Bent Towards The Palm . He Claims That This Was The Reason Why There Was No Show Of Thumbs In Front Of The Shroud .
Dr . Berbet States ; Evidently , The Thumb Contracted In The Spasm Of The Transfixion , Became Rigid Under The Palms As Rigor Mortis Ensued After The Savior's Death, ''
The Nail Measures 8 to 10 inches here is an example of the nails used by The Romans . It was hammered , Through the hands and feet of accused victims . Sentenced to death in order for the weight of the body to be supported . Shroudists state that the nail had to pass through the wrist in what is called destot's space . But who do they think they are fooling ? A nail that size would shatter someone's wrist bones , And then what support do you think they would have had ? In no way could it support 200 pound as researcher Luis Carreno S .D.B. Stated . Their were blood stains on The Shroud at the exact spot where the wrist was nailed. Another fabrication made up by the advocates of The Shroud . By using simple common Sense , You would see that it is not logical , For the blood that came out of The Wrist woulds to flow up towards the elbows . On the contrary , The blood would have dripped down the sides of the wrists , Onto the body . In fact more blood would have been dripping from the bottom hole , Than the top one , Following The Law Of Gravity .
Archaeologists claim that despite countless Crucifixions by The Romans , Approximately 6000 years after the revolt of The Slave spartacus , That not one Crucified Body had been found , Until people stated digging up a cemetery , So that the foundations could be laid for a building complex , In 1968 A.D. While digging up the cemetery , The body of a Crucified man was discovered , The name of the man was said to be Jehohanam . After Physical Examination , Archaeologists reported that the forearms of the victim , Were scratched , And that other signs showed that he had been nailed to The Crossbar above The Wristbone , Between The Radius And Ulna . They stated that the victim had fractured Leg Bones , Which indicated that there was delibrate smashing of the legs , In order to bring an end to his life , Thus , They say that , Archaeology has confirmed the medical evidence that The Shroud's image is correct . The date of Jehohanan's death was estimated as having occurred between 7 A.D. And 70 A.D. Biblical Scholars say that the discovery of that body prove to be helpful in their research , To make The Shroud Of Turin a reality .
The Scourging -- ( verb ) 1 . To whip or flog 2 . To punish , clastise or afflict severely . ;... Biblical Scholars states that , The Savior was Beaten With A '' Roman Flagrum '' . According To Monsignor Biulio Ricci , An Archivist At The Vatican , And A Sindonologist Scholar , The Shroud Of Turin Shows More Than One Hundred Flagellation Marks , That Are Discernible . Shroudists Say That When A Flagellum Is Laid On Human Skin With Force , That It Would Produce Wounds , Which In Turn Would Produce Marks , Exactly Like Those On The Shroud . Ricci Continues To Say , That The Flagellation Marks That The Robe Or Tunic , Would Have Covered ( The Back , Chest , And Upper Arms ) Appeared Smudged On The Shroud . Whereas The Marks That Were Not Touched By The Tunic ( Lower Arms And Legs , The Face ) Appear Decidedly More Distinct .
Shroudists State That The Shroud Of Turin Bears Blood Marks , Confirming How The Torso , And The Thighs Were Covered With Scourge Marks From The Use Of A Roman Flagrum . Yet They Say This Persecution Caused Him To Lapse Into A Coma , From Which , He Was Revived When He Was Placed In The Tomb ( Resurrect ) . The Phenomenon Is Especially Visible On The Shouldres . Where All Sindonologists Agree , The Man On The Shroud Carried A Heavy , Rough Beam , Notice ; If The Cross That Jesus Was Made To Cary , Had Been A Direct Contact With The Lacerated Shoulders , The Lacerations Would Have Widened , Forming Wider Sores , On The Contrary , They Have Kept Their Shape . This Would Not Have Happened , With The Presence Of A Robe Protecting The Shoulders Wounded By The Scourges .
This picture of The Shroud was taken by Secondo Pia ( 1855 - 1944 A.D. ) Who was also a lawyer . Two Photographic plates of The Shroud were exposed , So that they could serve as official records , Secondo Pia took the pictures back to his darkroom to prosess . As he poured on the developer , An image appeared , Which had a roundness , A deliecacy , And a molding appeareance on The Photographic plate . Secondo Pia believed he was looking at an image of Jesus . Exposures taken by other Photographers confirmed the Life - Like Impressions . The Photographer prints the film , In irder to get get a positive image . However with The Shroud , The Image was already negative . So when The negative plate was developed , A positive picture appeared . Where everyone was quite surprised . In 1931 A.D. The Shroud was again displayed for The Marriage of Umberto , The Prince of The House Of Savoy . In 1933 A.D. It was viewed for The Celebration of the supposed 19th Centenary of Christ's ,
So-called Crucifixion , On November 23 , 1973 A.D. The public exhibition of The Shroud ( By Permission Of Cardinal Pellegrino Of Turin ) Was not displayed in the usual manner . This time The Shroud was shown by what they call '' The Eye Of Modern Man '' , But we call it Tell - Lie - Vision , That's Right '' Television '' , This viewing of The Shroud was called by The Vatican ( The Roman Catholic Religious Officials ) , A '' Televevision Acts Of Veneration '' , They thought that Television could enable Millions of people , To see The Shroud in detail and with less risk than would be expected at a public exhibition . The Vatican felt that if The Shroud was viewed on Television , It would end all talks , Stating that The Shroud was not Authentic , Obviously it did not ! Presently , The legal owner of The Shroud Of Turin , By heredity , Is The Ex-King , Umberto ll of The House Of Savory . However , He is in exile in Portugal ; Therefore , The person unofficially left in charge is The Cardinal Archbishop of Turin , Monsignor Anastasio Ballastrero .
What Are The Theories Used To Support The Shroud ? Christians have assembled a task force of Scientists , Pathologists , Chemists , Photographic Specialists , Art Historians , Linguists , Bibleical Scholars And Textile Experts so that they can make this '' Mysterious Relic '' Become accepted by the world as The Shroud of Jesus '' , The Following are Techniques , Methods , And Conclusions whech they drew concerning this Christian '' Relic '' .
Anatomy Of The Shroud By ; Joes Luis Carreno , An Accredited Sindonologist ~ According to The Shroud researcher Luis Carreno , The Photographic Negative on the following diagram that appears Positive to our eyes , Has 2 parallel line ( See # 1 ) Which now appears white . These are the scorchings he says , Caused by the over heated metal edge of the Urn which contained The Shroud , During the chambery fire of 1532 A.D. The pair of Dark Triangles ( See # 1 ) Were the patches stitched onto the linen by Nuns , And this was in order to cover the holes made by a drop of Molten Metal , From a corner of the Urn . On the forehead , Appears a drop of blood , Which the researchers say were due to a crown of Thorns ( See # 5 ) . On the right side of the chest is the flow of blood , Which was caused by the thrust of The Soldier's Spear ( See # 8 ) .
The left hand partially conceals the right ( See # 6 ) And Luis Carreno says that The Nail that Affixed Jesus when he was on The Cross , Had to go through The Wrist and not through The Palam of The Hand . Neither Thumb Is Visible , Only 4 Fingers are Visible on each Hand . He also said The Pull on Each Arm on The Cross can be easily Calculated from The Angle formed by the direction of The Blood on The Wrist ( See # 7 ) According to him , The Pull must have been Calculated about 200 Pounds , Again he point out that . The back imprint on The second diagram , Show that The Crown Of Thorns was really A Cap Of Thorns , Pressed over The Entire Head , He claims that The Friction Against The Wood Of The Cross Pushed The Thorns In To The Back Of The Head ( See # 5 ) According to him , Both Shoulders Of Yashu'a Were Bruised By The Crossbeam As It Slid Down His Back ( See # 8 ) And This Was While He Was Carrying It To The Place Of Crucifixion .
Imprints Corresponding To - 1 . Scorching And Parches , 2 . Water , 3 . Body , 4 . Scourges , 5 . Thorns , 6 . Nail ( Wrist ) , 7 . Blood , 8 . Spear Thrust , 9 . Nails ( Feet ) 1 , Imprints Corresponding To - 1 . Scorching And Parches , 2 . Water , 3 . Body , 4 . Scourges , 5 . Thorns , 6 . Blood From Cava Vein After Body Was Taken Down From The , 7 . Nails ( Feet ) , 8 . Crossbeam ( Patibulim ) ...
The researcher , Luis Carreno , Says that The Scourges fell in pair ( See # 4 ) Chiefly on the back and shoulders although they show up over the entire body . Quote ; '' The Scourging Was Methodical ( Systematic ) , Almost Geometrical In Design . It Was Not A Hasty Flogging Administered To A Resisting Criminal . Far From It . Christs Was Scourged So That Pilate , On Resenting This Pitful Spectacle . Could Pacify The Crowd And Avoid Giving A Death Sentence .
He also stated that both feet were probaby Nailed By A Single Nail ( See # 7 ) , The Left Leg Arched Over The Right and that The Stiffness Of Death ( Rigor Mortis ) Kept It Bent in The Tomb . Thus the people of Constantinople thought , That one of The Leg of Their Lord , Was Shorter than the other .
Dr , Pierre Barbet A Paris Surgeon States The Following ; . The Face Shows Several Disfigurements ; A Swelling On The Noserbride And On The Right Cheek , A Contusion Below The Right Eye Socket And On The Left Cheek , Nose And Lower Lip. He Concluded By Stating ; If These Be The Works Of A Forger , He Must Have Been A Super Genius , An Anatomist . A Physiologist And An Artist , A Genius Of Such Unexcelled Quality That He Must Have Been Made To Order , ''
What Dr . Berbet Says Here , Leaves The Impression That He Thinks It Is Impossible For Someone With Those Abilities To Have Existed ; However The Holy Scriptures Clearly Tells Us ;
Matthew 24 ; 24 ( Modern Greek Script )
And In Time There Shall Rise Up Lying Messiah And False Prophets And Shall Have The Power To Do Great Signs And Miracles , So Great That If It Was All Possible They Would Be Able To Deceive The Chosen Ones .
( Mistranslation For Kings James 1611 A.D. )
''For There Shall Arise False Christs And False Prophets , And Shall Shew Great Signs And Wonder ; InSoMuch That , If It Were Possible , They Shall Deceive The Very Elect .
Above ; Close Up Of Crossed Hands On The Shroud , Natural Appearance , Showing Apparent Entry Point Of Nail On Wrist .
Dr Barbet Proceeded To Show How Jesus . Was Nailed To The Cross At The Wrists , By Driying A Nail Through A Part Of Freshly Amputated Hands . And Then By Using The Body Of Another Deceased Patient , From His Hospital In Paris , Dr Barbet Stated That It Is Unlikely That The Cross Had Been Raised , In Which He Had '' Crucified '' The Dead Body Through The Palms And If That's The Case , Then The Nail Would Have Tore Right Through The Palm Of The Hand , The X -Ray That He Made Of A Nail Penetrating The Bony Structure Of The Wrists , Shaowed How Only The Wrists Could Have Sustained The Weight Of The Body . He States That While He Drew A Nail Through The Wrist , The Thumbs , Contracting Under The Spasm Of Torn Nerves And Tendons , Jerked , And Bent Towards The Palm . He Claims That This Was The Reason Why There Was No Show Of Thumbs In Front Of The Shroud .
Dr . Berbet States ; Evidently , The Thumb Contracted In The Spasm Of The Transfixion , Became Rigid Under The Palms As Rigor Mortis Ensued After The Savior's Death, ''
The Nail Measures 8 to 10 inches here is an example of the nails used by The Romans . It was hammered , Through the hands and feet of accused victims . Sentenced to death in order for the weight of the body to be supported . Shroudists state that the nail had to pass through the wrist in what is called destot's space . But who do they think they are fooling ? A nail that size would shatter someone's wrist bones , And then what support do you think they would have had ? In no way could it support 200 pound as researcher Luis Carreno S .D.B. Stated . Their were blood stains on The Shroud at the exact spot where the wrist was nailed. Another fabrication made up by the advocates of The Shroud . By using simple common Sense , You would see that it is not logical , For the blood that came out of The Wrist woulds to flow up towards the elbows . On the contrary , The blood would have dripped down the sides of the wrists , Onto the body . In fact more blood would have been dripping from the bottom hole , Than the top one , Following The Law Of Gravity .
Archaeologists claim that despite countless Crucifixions by The Romans , Approximately 6000 years after the revolt of The Slave spartacus , That not one Crucified Body had been found , Until people stated digging up a cemetery , So that the foundations could be laid for a building complex , In 1968 A.D. While digging up the cemetery , The body of a Crucified man was discovered , The name of the man was said to be Jehohanam . After Physical Examination , Archaeologists reported that the forearms of the victim , Were scratched , And that other signs showed that he had been nailed to The Crossbar above The Wristbone , Between The Radius And Ulna . They stated that the victim had fractured Leg Bones , Which indicated that there was delibrate smashing of the legs , In order to bring an end to his life , Thus , They say that , Archaeology has confirmed the medical evidence that The Shroud's image is correct . The date of Jehohanan's death was estimated as having occurred between 7 A.D. And 70 A.D. Biblical Scholars say that the discovery of that body prove to be helpful in their research , To make The Shroud Of Turin a reality .
The Scourging -- ( verb ) 1 . To whip or flog 2 . To punish , clastise or afflict severely . ;... Biblical Scholars states that , The Savior was Beaten With A '' Roman Flagrum '' . According To Monsignor Biulio Ricci , An Archivist At The Vatican , And A Sindonologist Scholar , The Shroud Of Turin Shows More Than One Hundred Flagellation Marks , That Are Discernible . Shroudists Say That When A Flagellum Is Laid On Human Skin With Force , That It Would Produce Wounds , Which In Turn Would Produce Marks , Exactly Like Those On The Shroud . Ricci Continues To Say , That The Flagellation Marks That The Robe Or Tunic , Would Have Covered ( The Back , Chest , And Upper Arms ) Appeared Smudged On The Shroud . Whereas The Marks That Were Not Touched By The Tunic ( Lower Arms And Legs , The Face ) Appear Decidedly More Distinct .
Shroudists State That The Shroud Of Turin Bears Blood Marks , Confirming How The Torso , And The Thighs Were Covered With Scourge Marks From The Use Of A Roman Flagrum . Yet They Say This Persecution Caused Him To Lapse Into A Coma , From Which , He Was Revived When He Was Placed In The Tomb ( Resurrect ) . The Phenomenon Is Especially Visible On The Shouldres . Where All Sindonologists Agree , The Man On The Shroud Carried A Heavy , Rough Beam , Notice ; If The Cross That Jesus Was Made To Cary , Had Been A Direct Contact With The Lacerated Shoulders , The Lacerations Would Have Widened , Forming Wider Sores , On The Contrary , They Have Kept Their Shape . This Would Not Have Happened , With The Presence Of A Robe Protecting The Shoulders Wounded By The Scourges .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Kurt Berna , Otherwise Known As Hans Naber , The German Sidonologist Came Up With The Theory That Jesus Supposedly Did Not Die On The Cross , But Survived . Robert Wilcox , Author Of The Book Entitled , '' The Shroud'' , States That Naber Saw The Tip Of The Lance , Which Had Been Thrusted Up Into Jesus Side , Sticking Out Of The Left Pectoral Muscle . According To Naber's Vision , The Lance Tip Had Not Come To Rest Within The Chest Cavity , As Most Theological Experts Believed ; It Had Emerged Several Inches Above The Left Nipple . He Even Made It A Point , To State That He Could See A Tiny Would Mark At The Pectoral Area . It Was Circular , And Could Be Differentiated From The Marks Made By Scourging Which Were Straight And Smaller . '' It Is Meaningless To Say A Wound Is In The Speace Between The Fifth And Sixth Ribs Without Oualification Because There Can Be A Difference Of 6 - 7 Inches In Height Between The Front And Back Of The Space Due To The Downward Slope Of The Ribs ,
Apparent Chest Wounds On The Shroud Were Seen Immediately To The Left Of The Triangular Patches , Sewn On By Poor Clare Nuns . The Entrance Would As It Appears On The Shroud Is Clearly At The Front Of The Rib Slope And If Naber Had Only Realized That , His Simulated Spear Thrust Would Definitely Have Hit The Heart , '' Naber Was Charged With Forgery Because The Anatomical Diagram Of An Adult Human Heart Which Naber Claims He Had Used Was Actually The Diagram Of A Young Child's Chest Cavity . So The Reason Why The Naberian Spear Would Have Missed Such A Heart Is That The Organs Were Not Fully Grown .
Dr . Willis Went On To Say That ; '' The Piercing On The Heart Is Irrelevant Because The Executioners ( The Roman Soldiers Trained In The Art Of Using Their Weapon And Well Qualified To Know When The Death Had Ensued Were Convinced That Their Work Was Complete In The Case Of His Companions ; Otherwise They Would Have Broken Judas' ( Who They Thought Was The Messiah Jesus ) , Legs As They Did In The Case Of The 2 Robbers , The Piercing Of The Side . Then , Was In The Nature Of A Coup Degrade ( Literally Stroke Mercy ) , Not The Finishing Off Of Someone Half Dead, '' As You Can See These '' Experts '' Do Not Have Their Lies Straight . Everyone Wants To Be The Chief Theorist , And None Of Them Know What They Are Talking , About Because Their Evidence Is Not Substantial Enough To Back Them Up . What They Are Trying To Insinuate , Is That In Order For The Shroud To Have Received The Image That It Has , The Victim ( Whom You Will See Which Was Judas Iscariot And Not Yashu'a ( Jesus ) , Had To Have Been Alive . They Claim That The Body Was Covered With Blood , Which Means That The Heart Must Still Have Been Pumping , And The Blood Must Still Have Been Circulating Through His Body , Thus Causing A Bloody Discharge To Escape From His Wounds . However , Dead Bodies Do Not Bleed , If A Man's Side Is Punctured When There Is Fluid In The Chest Cavity , Air Will Go In , And No Fluids Would Be Coming Out . In Order For Fluid To Escape ; It Has To Be Sucked Out The Puncture Under Pressure . It Is Amazing To Think How Much Ingenuity Has Been Utilized To Authenticate What Is Obviously A Legend . We Also Know That The Body Of Whom Was Thought To Be Jesus , Was Washed Of Any Blood And Anointed Before It Was Wrapped In The Shroud Because The Book Of John Says That He Was Buried In The Manner In Which The Judahites ( From The Tribe Of Judah ) Bury Their Dead ( John 19 ; 40 ) .
1Corinthians 15 ; 13 - 14 ( Modern Greek Script )
But If There Is No Ressurection Of The Dead , Then Is The Messiah Not Risen ; And If The Messiah Has Not Risen , Then Is Our Preaching Vain , And Your Faith Is Also Vain .
( Mistranslation For King James 1611 A.D. )
But If There Is No Ressurection Of The Dead , Then Is Christ Not Risen ; And If Christ Be Not Risen , Then Is Our Preaching Vain , And Your Faith Is Also Vain .
Apparent Chest Wounds On The Shroud Were Seen Immediately To The Left Of The Triangular Patches , Sewn On By Poor Clare Nuns . The Entrance Would As It Appears On The Shroud Is Clearly At The Front Of The Rib Slope And If Naber Had Only Realized That , His Simulated Spear Thrust Would Definitely Have Hit The Heart , '' Naber Was Charged With Forgery Because The Anatomical Diagram Of An Adult Human Heart Which Naber Claims He Had Used Was Actually The Diagram Of A Young Child's Chest Cavity . So The Reason Why The Naberian Spear Would Have Missed Such A Heart Is That The Organs Were Not Fully Grown .
Dr . Willis Went On To Say That ; '' The Piercing On The Heart Is Irrelevant Because The Executioners ( The Roman Soldiers Trained In The Art Of Using Their Weapon And Well Qualified To Know When The Death Had Ensued Were Convinced That Their Work Was Complete In The Case Of His Companions ; Otherwise They Would Have Broken Judas' ( Who They Thought Was The Messiah Jesus ) , Legs As They Did In The Case Of The 2 Robbers , The Piercing Of The Side . Then , Was In The Nature Of A Coup Degrade ( Literally Stroke Mercy ) , Not The Finishing Off Of Someone Half Dead, '' As You Can See These '' Experts '' Do Not Have Their Lies Straight . Everyone Wants To Be The Chief Theorist , And None Of Them Know What They Are Talking , About Because Their Evidence Is Not Substantial Enough To Back Them Up . What They Are Trying To Insinuate , Is That In Order For The Shroud To Have Received The Image That It Has , The Victim ( Whom You Will See Which Was Judas Iscariot And Not Yashu'a ( Jesus ) , Had To Have Been Alive . They Claim That The Body Was Covered With Blood , Which Means That The Heart Must Still Have Been Pumping , And The Blood Must Still Have Been Circulating Through His Body , Thus Causing A Bloody Discharge To Escape From His Wounds . However , Dead Bodies Do Not Bleed , If A Man's Side Is Punctured When There Is Fluid In The Chest Cavity , Air Will Go In , And No Fluids Would Be Coming Out . In Order For Fluid To Escape ; It Has To Be Sucked Out The Puncture Under Pressure . It Is Amazing To Think How Much Ingenuity Has Been Utilized To Authenticate What Is Obviously A Legend . We Also Know That The Body Of Whom Was Thought To Be Jesus , Was Washed Of Any Blood And Anointed Before It Was Wrapped In The Shroud Because The Book Of John Says That He Was Buried In The Manner In Which The Judahites ( From The Tribe Of Judah ) Bury Their Dead ( John 19 ; 40 ) .
1Corinthians 15 ; 13 - 14 ( Modern Greek Script )
But If There Is No Ressurection Of The Dead , Then Is The Messiah Not Risen ; And If The Messiah Has Not Risen , Then Is Our Preaching Vain , And Your Faith Is Also Vain .
( Mistranslation For King James 1611 A.D. )
But If There Is No Ressurection Of The Dead , Then Is Christ Not Risen ; And If Christ Be Not Risen , Then Is Our Preaching Vain , And Your Faith Is Also Vain .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
What Is The Authenticity Of The Fabric ? The Textile Experts Of The 20th Century Have Identified The Fabric Of The Shroud Of Turin , As A Herringbone Was Unknown In France Until The 14th Century . It Has , However , Been Identified As Fabric Know During Roman Times In Syria , Pompeii , And Mainz . It Is Still Being Made In Syria Today ! Although , The Markings On The Cloth Could Not Have Been Made During Medieval France , They Could Have Been Made In Constantinople At Any Time ; Which Is The Supposed Place Where The Shroud First Turns Up In 1973 A.D. Samples Of Threads From The Fabric Were Used In Testing ; By 1976 A.D. Professors Rase ( Of The Ghent Institute Of Textile Technology ) Reported Traces Of Cotton , Which Could Only Mean , That The Fabric For The Shroud Was Made On A Machine , That Was Used For Weaving Cotton . Since Cotton Is Not Grown In Europe , It Is Likely , That The Babric Came Down From The Middle East . However , It Is Only Circumstantial Evidence , That The Imprints Could Have Been Made There , Because Around The 13th Century , Europe And Spain Were Flourishing In The Importation Of The Cotton Manufacturing Industry . Therefor , The Forger Could Have Been From Europe ,
Also Another Scientist , Dr . Max Frei , Examined The Pollen Found On The Shroud . He Reported The Securing A Specific Date From The Pollen . Would Not Be Possible ; But The Place Determined By The Pollen Could Be Discovered . He Found Possible Travels Of The Shroud To Be ; The Jordan Valley , Palestine , Syria , And Turkey , Concerning The Dark Stains Which Shroudists Claimed To Have Been Blood From The Crucifixion Test Were Made That Revealed No Traces Of Blood . However , Shroudist Argue , That The Original Blood Was Destroyed By Some Type Of Mystical Force , Released During The Resurrection . So If It Wasn't Blood , What Was It ? If The Stains Were Somehow Caused By A Remnant Of Blood , Would It Have Shown Up On The Tests ? Think About It ! A Micrscopist By The Name Of Dr . Walter Mccrone Made Tests On 32 Examples Taken From The Shroud .
His Reports Stated That Significant Amounts Of Very Fine Red Iron Oxide Were Found On The Shroud , This Chemical ( Red Iron Oxide ) Was Used Since Prehistoric Time As A Paint Pigment , To Further Question The Genuinely Of The Shroud , These Paint Pigments Were Found Only In Areas Of The '' Image '' And Not On The Fabric As A Whole . His Conclusion Was That '' The Entire Image Appears To Be The Work Of A Skillful , Well - Informed Aetist '' . A Professional Magician , Joe Nickell , Performed And Interesting Experiment Of His Own With Cloth ; In Order To Find Out What Situations Would Produce An Image Like That Found On The Shroud . He Discovered That A Bas - Relief - Scripural Projection Of Figure Forms From A Flat Background That Projects Very Little Of The Background Of A Real Human Body . Other Than A Statue . It Would Give A Distorted Image Of A Human Face And Figure ; Like That Which Is Shown On The Shroud Of Turin . He Was Able To Do This By; '' Soaking The Cloth In Hot Water , I Carefully Molded It To A Bas- Relief , Allowed It To Dry , And Then Applied Pigment - Rather As One Would Do A Rubbing Of A Gravestone ...
I Selected A Mixture Of Myrrh And Aloes As My Pigment , Stroking It On With A Dauber , Careful Application Produces The Negative Returned Positive Images Of Remarkable Fidelity . ;.... These Scientific Test Were Shown To Discredit The Authenticity Of The Shroud . Even If The Shroud Happened By Way Of A Miracle ; Wouldn't There At Least Have Been A Trace Of Something Concrete That Could Help To Prove Its Legitimacy ? We're Talking About A Man Who Bleeds Like You . Cries Like You , Fear Death Like You . Sins Like You . Was Baptized Like You And Dies Like You . So Why Hasn't Anyone Else's Image Been Transferred Onto A Cloth When They Die ?
Also Another Scientist , Dr . Max Frei , Examined The Pollen Found On The Shroud . He Reported The Securing A Specific Date From The Pollen . Would Not Be Possible ; But The Place Determined By The Pollen Could Be Discovered . He Found Possible Travels Of The Shroud To Be ; The Jordan Valley , Palestine , Syria , And Turkey , Concerning The Dark Stains Which Shroudists Claimed To Have Been Blood From The Crucifixion Test Were Made That Revealed No Traces Of Blood . However , Shroudist Argue , That The Original Blood Was Destroyed By Some Type Of Mystical Force , Released During The Resurrection . So If It Wasn't Blood , What Was It ? If The Stains Were Somehow Caused By A Remnant Of Blood , Would It Have Shown Up On The Tests ? Think About It ! A Micrscopist By The Name Of Dr . Walter Mccrone Made Tests On 32 Examples Taken From The Shroud .
His Reports Stated That Significant Amounts Of Very Fine Red Iron Oxide Were Found On The Shroud , This Chemical ( Red Iron Oxide ) Was Used Since Prehistoric Time As A Paint Pigment , To Further Question The Genuinely Of The Shroud , These Paint Pigments Were Found Only In Areas Of The '' Image '' And Not On The Fabric As A Whole . His Conclusion Was That '' The Entire Image Appears To Be The Work Of A Skillful , Well - Informed Aetist '' . A Professional Magician , Joe Nickell , Performed And Interesting Experiment Of His Own With Cloth ; In Order To Find Out What Situations Would Produce An Image Like That Found On The Shroud . He Discovered That A Bas - Relief - Scripural Projection Of Figure Forms From A Flat Background That Projects Very Little Of The Background Of A Real Human Body . Other Than A Statue . It Would Give A Distorted Image Of A Human Face And Figure ; Like That Which Is Shown On The Shroud Of Turin . He Was Able To Do This By; '' Soaking The Cloth In Hot Water , I Carefully Molded It To A Bas- Relief , Allowed It To Dry , And Then Applied Pigment - Rather As One Would Do A Rubbing Of A Gravestone ...
I Selected A Mixture Of Myrrh And Aloes As My Pigment , Stroking It On With A Dauber , Careful Application Produces The Negative Returned Positive Images Of Remarkable Fidelity . ;.... These Scientific Test Were Shown To Discredit The Authenticity Of The Shroud . Even If The Shroud Happened By Way Of A Miracle ; Wouldn't There At Least Have Been A Trace Of Something Concrete That Could Help To Prove Its Legitimacy ? We're Talking About A Man Who Bleeds Like You . Cries Like You , Fear Death Like You . Sins Like You . Was Baptized Like You And Dies Like You . So Why Hasn't Anyone Else's Image Been Transferred Onto A Cloth When They Die ?
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
What Are Image Problems For The Shround Of Turin ? Vaporography , Thermography , Kirlian Photography And The Scorch Theory , All Work In A Similar Way . Thermography Is An Offset Or An Extension Of Infra - Red Photography Which Was Developed After World ll . It Is Used In Hospitial To Detect Diseases Such As Breast Cancer , Etc . The Principle Use For Thermography Is The Usage Of Body Heat , Which Penetrates Certain Photographic Chemical Emulsions To Make Diagnostic Pictures Which Appear As Negative Images .
Vatican Officials That Are Obsessed With Proving The Authenticity Of The Shroud Have Gone To The Extent Of Killing Dogs , And Using Them In Experiments Such As These . These Photographic Chemical Emulsion Can Be Purchased Today In Spray Paint Form , Which You See , These Produced Images On Popular T-Shirts . These Emulsion Had Not Been Combined And Formulated For Sale To The Public Before World ll . The Cameras , Machinery , And Photographic Technology Did Not Develop Before The 1800's A.D. However , The Process Of Heat Forming Can Take Place Without The Aid Of These Things But It Takes A Very Long Period Of Time Before A Result Is Seen . Which Bring Us To The Theory Concerning How The Image Of Judas ( Thought To Be Jesus ) Was Left On The Shroud .
According To Shroudists , The Heat Of The Corpse Had The Ammoniac Vapors , Which Interacted With The Burial Spices Upon The Cloth , And It Produced The Image . Now This Cause Two Problems . First Of All , Shroudists Claim That There Was No Time To Wash The Body Of Judas , And Anoint It With Spices . So The Spices Had To Be Laid Beside The Body After Which He Was Covered With The Shroud . But If This Is True , Then How Is It Possible For The Heat Of His Body And The Burial Spices To Interact ,
Thus Producing A Full Front And Back Image On The Shroud . Second Of All , We Have Stated That The Process Of Vaporization , And Dehydration Etc., Is A Natural Process Which Can Leave A Negative Image On A Surface , But It Takes A Very Long Period Of Time . And The Body Of He Who Is Thought To Be Yashua Was Not In The Tomb Long Enough For Any Sort Of Image To Have Been Produced On The Cloth , Especially Such A Third Dimensional Image As Is Portrayed On The Shroud . ( Why Are There So Many Different Interpretations Of '' Christ's '' Appearance If '' The Shtoud '' Was An Open Testimony Of How He Actually Looked ?
Vatican Officials That Are Obsessed With Proving The Authenticity Of The Shroud Have Gone To The Extent Of Killing Dogs , And Using Them In Experiments Such As These . These Photographic Chemical Emulsion Can Be Purchased Today In Spray Paint Form , Which You See , These Produced Images On Popular T-Shirts . These Emulsion Had Not Been Combined And Formulated For Sale To The Public Before World ll . The Cameras , Machinery , And Photographic Technology Did Not Develop Before The 1800's A.D. However , The Process Of Heat Forming Can Take Place Without The Aid Of These Things But It Takes A Very Long Period Of Time Before A Result Is Seen . Which Bring Us To The Theory Concerning How The Image Of Judas ( Thought To Be Jesus ) Was Left On The Shroud .
According To Shroudists , The Heat Of The Corpse Had The Ammoniac Vapors , Which Interacted With The Burial Spices Upon The Cloth , And It Produced The Image . Now This Cause Two Problems . First Of All , Shroudists Claim That There Was No Time To Wash The Body Of Judas , And Anoint It With Spices . So The Spices Had To Be Laid Beside The Body After Which He Was Covered With The Shroud . But If This Is True , Then How Is It Possible For The Heat Of His Body And The Burial Spices To Interact ,
Thus Producing A Full Front And Back Image On The Shroud . Second Of All , We Have Stated That The Process Of Vaporization , And Dehydration Etc., Is A Natural Process Which Can Leave A Negative Image On A Surface , But It Takes A Very Long Period Of Time . And The Body Of He Who Is Thought To Be Yashua Was Not In The Tomb Long Enough For Any Sort Of Image To Have Been Produced On The Cloth , Especially Such A Third Dimensional Image As Is Portrayed On The Shroud . ( Why Are There So Many Different Interpretations Of '' Christ's '' Appearance If '' The Shtoud '' Was An Open Testimony Of How He Actually Looked ?
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
What Is The Icon Theory ? The Image That Appears On The Shroud Of Turin Is What Christians Use As Their Verification Of The So-called '' Crucifixion Of Jesus Christ '' . The Image Found On The Shroud Contain Certain Features , That '' Biblical Scholars '' And Shroud Advocates Attributes To Yashu'a ( Jesus ) , Such As ; Woulds On The Wrists , The Side , The Head , And Scorches All Over The Body . According To The Synopic Gospels Matthew , Mark , And Luke , These Things Describe Yashu'a . This Is Why The Media Has Saturated The Public With So Many Representations Of '' The Savior '' , These Representations Are Called '' Icons '' . The Definition Of Icon According To The American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language Is As Follows ;
Icon -- 1 , An image ; representation b ) a smile or symbol 2 . a representation or picture of a sacred christian personage , itself regarded as sacred , especially in the tradition of the eastern churches . According To Reverend Marcus Green Of The Order Of St . Benedit , Certain Geatures In The Representation of Yashu'a Seem To Indicate That The Artist Drew Their Inspirations Disrectly And / Or Indirectly From The Shroud . He Also Included That The Shroud Shows A Bruise Across The Forehead , Three Sides Of A Square Between The Eyebrows , Enlarged Nostrils ; And A Divided Beard Across The Throat . The Icons That Are Seen Today Do Not Come Anywhere Near The Description Mentioned Above . Notice In The Following Pictures , The Difference In Appearance Between The Eleventh Century , And The Twentieth Century Concepts .
It Is Quite Obvious That They Don't Know How Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Really Looked . If The Shroud Sereves As A Model Of How He Really Looked , Then Why Are There So Many Different Paintings Of Him ? The Luciferians Are Trying To Fool You ! They Are Doing A Very Good Job At It , With All Of These Different Leaders Now Coming Out Saying That Jesus Is Really A Blackman , None Of Them Can Seem To Agree With Which Picture They Want To Use , Thus , They Will Confuse The Next Generation Of Children That Are Coming Up . What All Of Them Need To Do Is Meet And Agree On A Standard Picture For The Children's Sake If No Other Reason . The Next Thing That Is Going To Happen Is That All Of These Churches Are Going To Be At War About Who Should Use What And '' I Think This '' , I Think That '' , I , I , I , '' , Nobody Is Looking At It From A '' We '' Stand Point Of View .
Icon -- 1 , An image ; representation b ) a smile or symbol 2 . a representation or picture of a sacred christian personage , itself regarded as sacred , especially in the tradition of the eastern churches . According To Reverend Marcus Green Of The Order Of St . Benedit , Certain Geatures In The Representation of Yashu'a Seem To Indicate That The Artist Drew Their Inspirations Disrectly And / Or Indirectly From The Shroud . He Also Included That The Shroud Shows A Bruise Across The Forehead , Three Sides Of A Square Between The Eyebrows , Enlarged Nostrils ; And A Divided Beard Across The Throat . The Icons That Are Seen Today Do Not Come Anywhere Near The Description Mentioned Above . Notice In The Following Pictures , The Difference In Appearance Between The Eleventh Century , And The Twentieth Century Concepts .
It Is Quite Obvious That They Don't Know How Yashu'a ( Jesus ) Really Looked . If The Shroud Sereves As A Model Of How He Really Looked , Then Why Are There So Many Different Paintings Of Him ? The Luciferians Are Trying To Fool You ! They Are Doing A Very Good Job At It , With All Of These Different Leaders Now Coming Out Saying That Jesus Is Really A Blackman , None Of Them Can Seem To Agree With Which Picture They Want To Use , Thus , They Will Confuse The Next Generation Of Children That Are Coming Up . What All Of Them Need To Do Is Meet And Agree On A Standard Picture For The Children's Sake If No Other Reason . The Next Thing That Is Going To Happen Is That All Of These Churches Are Going To Be At War About Who Should Use What And '' I Think This '' , I Think That '' , I , I , I , '' , Nobody Is Looking At It From A '' We '' Stand Point Of View .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
What Type Of Material Was Used By Joseph To Wrap The Body Of Judas ? This Is An Aspect Of The Shroud Which Has Been Overlooked . The Type Of Material That Joseph Used Was Linen , Yet The Shroudists , Professors ( Those Who Profess To Know ) , And Biblical Scholars Have A Piece Of Cloth That They Says Is The Burial Cloth Of Judas ( Who They Though To Be Yashu'a ( Jesus ) . This Cloth Is Suppose To Be Made Of Herringbone Twill After Researching Out The Date That The Herringbone Twill Came Into Use , We Find Out That It Was Way After The Time Of Yashu'a ( Jesus ) . Msgr . Rietro Savio , Archivist And Sindonologist ( One Who Studies The Shroud ) Says ; '' Herringbone Date Back To A.D. 130, '' Professor Gilbert Raes Of The University Of Ghent Belgium States ; '' Some Of The Textile Indications Seem To Point To The Holy Land And Great Antiquity . The Material Is Linen , Commonly Used In Ancient Palestine For Grave Clothes . The ( Weave ) Is A Herringbone Twill , A Pattern Not Known To The Ancient , ( Although Plain , Weave ) Was Much More ( Common ) In Those Days ... ' Now Look At The Time Period He Placed On This Discovered Linen ; .... The Thread Appears To Be Hand Spun , An Ancient Technique ; After About A.D. 1200 ... ''
Look At The Two Different Time Periods Which The Shroudists Have Submitted , As The Dates When The Herringbone Was First Used ; 1200 A.D. And 1300 A.D. Anno Domini To The Historians ( His - Story Tellers ) Means '' After The Death Of Christ '' Or '' In The Year Of Our Lord '' This Means That It Was Not Until 300 Years On 1200 Years After The '' Supposed Crucifixion Of Christ , That They Began To Use Herringbone Was Weave . In The Above Quote The So-called Scholars Are Telling You That They Discovered The Shroud Of Turin Which Is Made Of Linen Material , That Has A Herringbone Weave Pattern . Yet There Is No Record That The Herringbone Was Weave Was Fabric , With A Diagonal Rib . There Are Said To Be Four Qualities , One So Fine That Each Thread Contained 360 Fibers . Hebrew Also Developed Great Skills At The Linen Looms , And They Even Reported Their Product To The Nile Valley For Loin Cloths . The Comfortable Texture Of Linen , Made It Popular For The Garments Of Royalty , And Aristocrats . It Is This Type Of Linen That Was Used For Egyptian Mummy Bandages , Sometimes Piles Of Linen Sheets Are 60 Feet Long , Beautifully Fringed , And They Were Piled In The Tomb Chambers Of The Deceased .
According To The Bible , The Word Linen Appears 104 Times . Notice If You Will That In Each Instance The Words For Linen Varies Because It Describes Its Different Function ( John 19 ; 40 )
. In Summary , After Judas ( Not Jesus ) Was Crucified , Taken Down From The Cross And Wash , Anointed With Aromatic Ointments And Treated With Spice , He Was Wrapped In Linen And A Bandage Or Hihaaba -- Veil , Nakin Was Placed Over His Face, Another Extremely Important Point Is The Fact That The Image On The Shroud Of Turin Could Not Have Been As Precise As It Seems On The Shroud , Judas ' Body Was '' Wrapped '' In Burial Cloths , Which Means That When The Shroud Was Unwarpped The Image ( If It Were True That There Was An Image ) Would Have Been Dispersed So That You Would Not Be Able To See Such A Complete Head To Toe Image As It Seems On The So-Called Holy Shroud ( John 2 ; 19 , 21 ) . Now We Would Like To Ask ; What Kind Of Physical Ptoof Do The Christians Have To Prove The Shroud Is Authentic ? None , Because They Have No Substantial Or Logical Information To Back Up Their Conclusions .
Look At The Two Different Time Periods Which The Shroudists Have Submitted , As The Dates When The Herringbone Was First Used ; 1200 A.D. And 1300 A.D. Anno Domini To The Historians ( His - Story Tellers ) Means '' After The Death Of Christ '' Or '' In The Year Of Our Lord '' This Means That It Was Not Until 300 Years On 1200 Years After The '' Supposed Crucifixion Of Christ , That They Began To Use Herringbone Was Weave . In The Above Quote The So-called Scholars Are Telling You That They Discovered The Shroud Of Turin Which Is Made Of Linen Material , That Has A Herringbone Weave Pattern . Yet There Is No Record That The Herringbone Was Weave Was Fabric , With A Diagonal Rib . There Are Said To Be Four Qualities , One So Fine That Each Thread Contained 360 Fibers . Hebrew Also Developed Great Skills At The Linen Looms , And They Even Reported Their Product To The Nile Valley For Loin Cloths . The Comfortable Texture Of Linen , Made It Popular For The Garments Of Royalty , And Aristocrats . It Is This Type Of Linen That Was Used For Egyptian Mummy Bandages , Sometimes Piles Of Linen Sheets Are 60 Feet Long , Beautifully Fringed , And They Were Piled In The Tomb Chambers Of The Deceased .
According To The Bible , The Word Linen Appears 104 Times . Notice If You Will That In Each Instance The Words For Linen Varies Because It Describes Its Different Function ( John 19 ; 40 )
. In Summary , After Judas ( Not Jesus ) Was Crucified , Taken Down From The Cross And Wash , Anointed With Aromatic Ointments And Treated With Spice , He Was Wrapped In Linen And A Bandage Or Hihaaba -- Veil , Nakin Was Placed Over His Face, Another Extremely Important Point Is The Fact That The Image On The Shroud Of Turin Could Not Have Been As Precise As It Seems On The Shroud , Judas ' Body Was '' Wrapped '' In Burial Cloths , Which Means That When The Shroud Was Unwarpped The Image ( If It Were True That There Was An Image ) Would Have Been Dispersed So That You Would Not Be Able To See Such A Complete Head To Toe Image As It Seems On The So-Called Holy Shroud ( John 2 ; 19 , 21 ) . Now We Would Like To Ask ; What Kind Of Physical Ptoof Do The Christians Have To Prove The Shroud Is Authentic ? None , Because They Have No Substantial Or Logical Information To Back Up Their Conclusions .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
New York Times , October 13 , 1979 ~ Scientists Fair Fail To Solve Mystery Of Shroud Of Turin Los Alamos , New Mexico On Different Occasions , Shroudists Have Speculated In The Media ( Television , Newspapers , Magazines , Etc . ) , That It Is Very Hard To Prove That The Shroud Of Turin , Is The Actual Burial Cloth Of Yashu'a ( Jesus ) . Nor Could They Even Prove , That The Image Was Made By A Real Body . Dr , John Jackson Of The United States Air Force ( Who Is Directly Related To Nasa Commented For The Newspaper By Saying ; '' We Can Show Mathematically That His Image Was Formed By A Real Body Shape Underneath The Cloth , But Whether It Was A Real Body Or Not Is Unknown . '' The Newspaper Continues To Back Up The Fact That It Could Be A Fake By Saying ;, '' The Process That Formed The Image Which Appears Similar To That Of The Photograph Negative Has Not Been Determined , ''
The Times Newspaper Admits That The Previous Examination Performed By Shroudists , Have Failed To Determine What Caused The Image On The Menen . It Brings Out One Important Point
, However , And That Is . That The Roman Catholic Church Urges Its Followers To Worship This Relic , Yet They Know That It Is Not Real , And They Have No Tests To Prove That It Will Guarantee Man's Entrance Into Paradise . In Another Article Published , A Month Later , In The Same Newspaper , Thy Revealed That During The Middle Ages There Was An Outburst Of Relics Being Displayed For The Sole Pirpose Of Collecting Money For The Upkeep Of The Church , State , And Ministers . Towns Would Steal Relics Of Famous Persons And Things So That They Could Gain Enough Attention To Make A Profit . New York Times Sunday , November 4 , 1979
Religion ; Shroud Of Turin Investigation Renews Debate Over Relics ...
The Vatican Council States That The Shroud Is An Extraordinary Document Of The Life . And Redemptive Mission Of Christ In Existence , One That Should Take Its Place Alongside The New Testament , The Attention That The Vatican Gives To The Shroud Shows A Reoccurrence Of The Fourteenth Century Relic Veneration . The Catholic Church Is Losing Its Followers , And Consequently Is Losing The Funds That It Once Had To Make It So Popular . This Is Why They Will Seek Any Means Necessary To Gain Its Power And Wealth , So Why The Shroud !!!! A Large Number Of People , As We Already Know , Are Beginning To Realize That The Shroud Of Turin Is A Fake . Especially Because Of All The Controversy Surrounding It . Christians Are Beginning To Realize That Their Lies Are Not Working Anymore And That With Every Day That Passes , They Lose More And More Followers . Thus They Have To Come Up With New Ideas , That They Hope Will Make People Hold On To Their Christian Followers . Take This Article For Example . This Is A Clipping From One Of The Most Read Newspapers In The Metropolitan Area .
According To This Article , Shroudists Are Now Saying That They Have New Evidence With Regards To The Shroud , And That This Evidence Will Be Put On Display At Connecticut College For You To See . Evidence That They Say , They Have Been Holding Onto For Three Years . But Why ? The Reality Is , That This Display Is Nothing More Than A Gimmick , A Means For Them To Make Money Because Of These Tests Which They Made Had In Fact Proven That The Shroud Is Authentic , Then They Waited Three Years Before Telling The World . It Would Seem That After Making Such An Extraordinary Discovery , That They Would Be More Than Happy With The Idea Of Telling Everyone , So That The Controverises Regarding The Shroud Could Stop . But Like I Said Before , These Christians Only Want People To Come Out And See The Shroud So That They Can Spend Money . Why ? Because Christians Need The Money So That They Can Finance The Casket , And Buy All The Other Material Necessary To Upkeep The Shroud .
It Is Just Like When You See Someone Advertising , They Have New Findings Concerning The Bible And When You See Someone Go , Where Ever You Must Go , To Hear These Fascinating New Facts , What You Find Is That It Is Nothing More Than Another Translation Of The Bible . Then There You Are . You Have Spent Mony On Traveling And Ptobaby An Entrance Fee Only To Find Out That You Are Right Back Where You Started . Knowing No More And No Less . What Christians Have To Realize Is That People Are No Longer Accepting Things On Blind Faith . And If They ( Christians ) Say That The Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic And That It Has The Power To Heal ( As They Have Already Done ) . And Someone Touches That Shroud And It Doesn't Heal Him , That Person Is Not Going To Believe That The Shroud Is Holy No Matter What They Say .
The Times Newspaper Admits That The Previous Examination Performed By Shroudists , Have Failed To Determine What Caused The Image On The Menen . It Brings Out One Important Point
, However , And That Is . That The Roman Catholic Church Urges Its Followers To Worship This Relic , Yet They Know That It Is Not Real , And They Have No Tests To Prove That It Will Guarantee Man's Entrance Into Paradise . In Another Article Published , A Month Later , In The Same Newspaper , Thy Revealed That During The Middle Ages There Was An Outburst Of Relics Being Displayed For The Sole Pirpose Of Collecting Money For The Upkeep Of The Church , State , And Ministers . Towns Would Steal Relics Of Famous Persons And Things So That They Could Gain Enough Attention To Make A Profit . New York Times Sunday , November 4 , 1979
Religion ; Shroud Of Turin Investigation Renews Debate Over Relics ...
The Vatican Council States That The Shroud Is An Extraordinary Document Of The Life . And Redemptive Mission Of Christ In Existence , One That Should Take Its Place Alongside The New Testament , The Attention That The Vatican Gives To The Shroud Shows A Reoccurrence Of The Fourteenth Century Relic Veneration . The Catholic Church Is Losing Its Followers , And Consequently Is Losing The Funds That It Once Had To Make It So Popular . This Is Why They Will Seek Any Means Necessary To Gain Its Power And Wealth , So Why The Shroud !!!! A Large Number Of People , As We Already Know , Are Beginning To Realize That The Shroud Of Turin Is A Fake . Especially Because Of All The Controversy Surrounding It . Christians Are Beginning To Realize That Their Lies Are Not Working Anymore And That With Every Day That Passes , They Lose More And More Followers . Thus They Have To Come Up With New Ideas , That They Hope Will Make People Hold On To Their Christian Followers . Take This Article For Example . This Is A Clipping From One Of The Most Read Newspapers In The Metropolitan Area .
According To This Article , Shroudists Are Now Saying That They Have New Evidence With Regards To The Shroud , And That This Evidence Will Be Put On Display At Connecticut College For You To See . Evidence That They Say , They Have Been Holding Onto For Three Years . But Why ? The Reality Is , That This Display Is Nothing More Than A Gimmick , A Means For Them To Make Money Because Of These Tests Which They Made Had In Fact Proven That The Shroud Is Authentic , Then They Waited Three Years Before Telling The World . It Would Seem That After Making Such An Extraordinary Discovery , That They Would Be More Than Happy With The Idea Of Telling Everyone , So That The Controverises Regarding The Shroud Could Stop . But Like I Said Before , These Christians Only Want People To Come Out And See The Shroud So That They Can Spend Money . Why ? Because Christians Need The Money So That They Can Finance The Casket , And Buy All The Other Material Necessary To Upkeep The Shroud .
It Is Just Like When You See Someone Advertising , They Have New Findings Concerning The Bible And When You See Someone Go , Where Ever You Must Go , To Hear These Fascinating New Facts , What You Find Is That It Is Nothing More Than Another Translation Of The Bible . Then There You Are . You Have Spent Mony On Traveling And Ptobaby An Entrance Fee Only To Find Out That You Are Right Back Where You Started . Knowing No More And No Less . What Christians Have To Realize Is That People Are No Longer Accepting Things On Blind Faith . And If They ( Christians ) Say That The Shroud Of Turin Is Authentic And That It Has The Power To Heal ( As They Have Already Done ) . And Someone Touches That Shroud And It Doesn't Heal Him , That Person Is Not Going To Believe That The Shroud Is Holy No Matter What They Say .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Shroud Of Turin Still A Mystery ( Article From ; The Daily News ) ~ New London , Conn (Ap ) - The Image On The Shroud Of Turin Is That Of A '' Scourged Crucified Man '' Scientists Who Examined The Cloth For Three Years Said Yesterday , But They Added That Science Cannot Decide Wether The Image Is Jesus Christs , '' We Can Conclude That The Shroud Image Is That Of A Real Human Form , Of A Scourged , Crucified Man . It Is Not The Product Of An Artist . The Blood Stains Are Composed Of Hemoglobin , Said Joan Janney , A Member Of The Stroud Of Turin Research Project Inc . Which Began Its Examination Of The Shroud In 1978 A.D. '' The Image Is An On - Going Mystery And Until Further Tests Are Made , Perhaps By This Group Of Scientists , Or Perhaps By Some Scientist In The Future , The Problem Remains Unsolved , ''
She Said During A News Conference To Discuss The Findings , Janney , A Scientist At The National Science Labratory In Los Alamos , N.M. Said She Didn't Think It Was Possible For Scientists To Decide Wether The Image Is Christs , '' I Don't Think The Classical Scientific Method Can Prove Who It Was , '' She Said . The Science Team Report Said Chemical And X - Ray Test Determined That No Pigments , Paints , Stains Or Dyes Were Use To Create The Image . It Also Determined That The Image Was Not Caused By Spices , Oils , Or Any '' Biochemicals '' Produced By Body In Life Or Death . The Scientist Said The Image , Was However , Produced By '' Direct Contact With A Body , Which Explains Certain Features . ''
However , While This Type Of Contact Might Explain Some Of The Feature Of The Torso , It Is Totally Incapable Of Expaining The Image Of The Face With The High Resolution That Has Been Amply Demonstrated By Photography '' , Their Report Said . The 40 Member Team That Examined The Shroud Is Presenting The Results Of Its Investigation To Some 1,000 Participain , Including Scientist And Religious Pilgrims . At A Three - Day Conference At Connecticut College . The Scientists Said Conclusive Evidence Of The Cloth's Age Could Be Gained Via - Carbon - 14 Dating Which Has Not Yet Been Permitted By The Roman Catholic Church . The Shroud's Official Guardian , Cardinal Anastasio Ballestrero . The Roman Catholic Archbishop Of Turin , Is Considering A Request By Researchers To Allow The Carbon - 14 Testing . The Shroud Itself Never Leaves Italy And Is Displayed Only Two Or Three Times Every Century ...
Pious Frauds ~ People Today , Are So Anxious To Find Out The Truth , That Many Times They Are Deceived By People Who Claim That They Are Healers And That They Have The Answers ( Matthew 24 ; 11 - 12 ) . The Articles On The Following Page Are Proof Of That For Over Thousands Of Years People Have Used Symbols To Express Their Religious Beliefs , From Statues To Jewelry . The Christians Were Some Of The First To Use Symbols . They Made Statues Of Myriad Gods In The Form Of Men '' Paint '' On Shroud Of Turin ( Article From ; New York Post , Friday , January 8 , 1982 ) . These Shroudist Had People Believing That They Had Indeed Found New Startling Information Concerning The Shroud Of Turin Only For Us To Later Find Out That They Are Saying The Same Thing That Hundreds Of Other Shroudist Have Been Saying For Years , They Claim That The Blood Stains On The Shrous Are Composed Of Hemoglobin . But As Stated Before , According To Walter Meccrone , A Chicago Microscopist , That Is Not True , He Says That The Stains On The Shroud Is Paint That Was Applied To It In The 14 Century .
He States That What He Found Was '' Iron - Oxide '' , A Red Pigment Commonly Used By Artists In The Middle Ages . Shroudists State That A Carbon - 14 Test ( A Test In Which Strands Of The Shroud Are Put Through A Machine Which Them Determines The Age Of Then Linen ) Would Prove Whether The Shroud Is Authentic Or Not . However , The Vatican , The Roman Catholic Church Does Not Agree To Give Them The Samples Needed For Testing Because They Claim It Will Ruin The Shroud . But Who Are They Kidding ? The Question Is '' What Are They Trying To Hide ? The Fact That The Shroud Is Fake ??? The Shroud Of Turin Is Quickly Losing Its Popularity , In Fact Many People Now Believe That It Does Not Belong To ( Jesus ) . They Are Now Saying That It Belongs To King Tut !!
She Said During A News Conference To Discuss The Findings , Janney , A Scientist At The National Science Labratory In Los Alamos , N.M. Said She Didn't Think It Was Possible For Scientists To Decide Wether The Image Is Christs , '' I Don't Think The Classical Scientific Method Can Prove Who It Was , '' She Said . The Science Team Report Said Chemical And X - Ray Test Determined That No Pigments , Paints , Stains Or Dyes Were Use To Create The Image . It Also Determined That The Image Was Not Caused By Spices , Oils , Or Any '' Biochemicals '' Produced By Body In Life Or Death . The Scientist Said The Image , Was However , Produced By '' Direct Contact With A Body , Which Explains Certain Features . ''
However , While This Type Of Contact Might Explain Some Of The Feature Of The Torso , It Is Totally Incapable Of Expaining The Image Of The Face With The High Resolution That Has Been Amply Demonstrated By Photography '' , Their Report Said . The 40 Member Team That Examined The Shroud Is Presenting The Results Of Its Investigation To Some 1,000 Participain , Including Scientist And Religious Pilgrims . At A Three - Day Conference At Connecticut College . The Scientists Said Conclusive Evidence Of The Cloth's Age Could Be Gained Via - Carbon - 14 Dating Which Has Not Yet Been Permitted By The Roman Catholic Church . The Shroud's Official Guardian , Cardinal Anastasio Ballestrero . The Roman Catholic Archbishop Of Turin , Is Considering A Request By Researchers To Allow The Carbon - 14 Testing . The Shroud Itself Never Leaves Italy And Is Displayed Only Two Or Three Times Every Century ...
Pious Frauds ~ People Today , Are So Anxious To Find Out The Truth , That Many Times They Are Deceived By People Who Claim That They Are Healers And That They Have The Answers ( Matthew 24 ; 11 - 12 ) . The Articles On The Following Page Are Proof Of That For Over Thousands Of Years People Have Used Symbols To Express Their Religious Beliefs , From Statues To Jewelry . The Christians Were Some Of The First To Use Symbols . They Made Statues Of Myriad Gods In The Form Of Men '' Paint '' On Shroud Of Turin ( Article From ; New York Post , Friday , January 8 , 1982 ) . These Shroudist Had People Believing That They Had Indeed Found New Startling Information Concerning The Shroud Of Turin Only For Us To Later Find Out That They Are Saying The Same Thing That Hundreds Of Other Shroudist Have Been Saying For Years , They Claim That The Blood Stains On The Shrous Are Composed Of Hemoglobin . But As Stated Before , According To Walter Meccrone , A Chicago Microscopist , That Is Not True , He Says That The Stains On The Shroud Is Paint That Was Applied To It In The 14 Century .
He States That What He Found Was '' Iron - Oxide '' , A Red Pigment Commonly Used By Artists In The Middle Ages . Shroudists State That A Carbon - 14 Test ( A Test In Which Strands Of The Shroud Are Put Through A Machine Which Them Determines The Age Of Then Linen ) Would Prove Whether The Shroud Is Authentic Or Not . However , The Vatican , The Roman Catholic Church Does Not Agree To Give Them The Samples Needed For Testing Because They Claim It Will Ruin The Shroud . But Who Are They Kidding ? The Question Is '' What Are They Trying To Hide ? The Fact That The Shroud Is Fake ??? The Shroud Of Turin Is Quickly Losing Its Popularity , In Fact Many People Now Believe That It Does Not Belong To ( Jesus ) . They Are Now Saying That It Belongs To King Tut !!
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
The Shroud of Turin (or Turin Shroud) is a linen cloth bearing the image of a man who appears to have been physically traumatized in a manner consistent with crucifixion. It is kept in the royal chapel of the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. It is believed by many (e.g. pilgrims who visit it) to be the cloth placed on Jesus of Nazareth at the time of his burial.
The image on the shroud is much clearer in black-and-white negative than in its natural sepia color. The striking negative image was first observed on the evening of May 28, 1898 on the reverse photographic plate of amateur photographer Secondo Pia who was allowed to photograph it while it was being exhibited in the Turin Cathedral. According to Pia, he almost dropped and broke the photographic plate from the shock of seeing an image of a person on it.
The shroud is the subject of intense debate among some scientists, people of faith, historians, and writers regarding where, when, and how the shroud and its images were created. From a religious standpoint, in 1958 Pope Pius XII approved of the image in association with the Roman Catholic devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus, celebrated every year on Shrove Tuesday. Some believe the shroud is the cloth that covered Jesus when he was placed in his tomb and that his image was recorded on its fibers at or near the time of his alleged resurrection. Skeptics, on the other hand, contend the shroud is a medieval forgery; others attribute the forming of the image to chemical reactions or other natural processes.
Various tests have been performed on the shroud, yet the debates about its origin continue. Radiocarbon dating in 1988 by three independent teams of scientists yielded results published in Nature indicating that the shroud was made during the Middle Ages, approximately 1300 years after Jesus lived.[4] Claims of bias and error in the testing were raised almost immediately, and were answered by Harry E. Gove or others. Yet the dating controversy has continued. Follow-up analysis published in 2005, for example, claimed that the sample dated by the teams was taken from an area of the shroud that was not a part of the original cloth. The shroud was also damaged by a fire in the Late Middle Ages which could have added carbon material to the cloth, resulting in a higher radiocarbon content and a later calculated age. This analysis itself is questioned by skeptics such as Joe Nickell, who reasons that the conclusions of the author, Raymond Rogers, result from "starting with the desired conclusion and working backward to the evidence". Former Nature editor Philip Ball has said that the idea that Rogers steered his study to a preconceived conclusion is "unfair" and Rogers "has a history of respectable work".
However, the 2008 research at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit may revise the 1260–1390 dating toward which it originally contributed, leading its director Christopher Ramsey to call the scientific community to probe anew the authenticity of the Shroud. "With the radiocarbon measurements and with all of the other evidence which we have about the Shroud, there does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence" Gordan said to BBC News in 2008, after the new research emerged. Ramsey had stressed that he would be surprised if the 1988 tests were shown to be far off, let alone "a thousand years wrong", and insisted that he would be keeping an open mind.
The image on the shroud is much clearer in black-and-white negative than in its natural sepia color. The striking negative image was first observed on the evening of May 28, 1898 on the reverse photographic plate of amateur photographer Secondo Pia who was allowed to photograph it while it was being exhibited in the Turin Cathedral. According to Pia, he almost dropped and broke the photographic plate from the shock of seeing an image of a person on it.
The shroud is the subject of intense debate among some scientists, people of faith, historians, and writers regarding where, when, and how the shroud and its images were created. From a religious standpoint, in 1958 Pope Pius XII approved of the image in association with the Roman Catholic devotion to the Holy Face of Jesus, celebrated every year on Shrove Tuesday. Some believe the shroud is the cloth that covered Jesus when he was placed in his tomb and that his image was recorded on its fibers at or near the time of his alleged resurrection. Skeptics, on the other hand, contend the shroud is a medieval forgery; others attribute the forming of the image to chemical reactions or other natural processes.
Various tests have been performed on the shroud, yet the debates about its origin continue. Radiocarbon dating in 1988 by three independent teams of scientists yielded results published in Nature indicating that the shroud was made during the Middle Ages, approximately 1300 years after Jesus lived.[4] Claims of bias and error in the testing were raised almost immediately, and were answered by Harry E. Gove or others. Yet the dating controversy has continued. Follow-up analysis published in 2005, for example, claimed that the sample dated by the teams was taken from an area of the shroud that was not a part of the original cloth. The shroud was also damaged by a fire in the Late Middle Ages which could have added carbon material to the cloth, resulting in a higher radiocarbon content and a later calculated age. This analysis itself is questioned by skeptics such as Joe Nickell, who reasons that the conclusions of the author, Raymond Rogers, result from "starting with the desired conclusion and working backward to the evidence". Former Nature editor Philip Ball has said that the idea that Rogers steered his study to a preconceived conclusion is "unfair" and Rogers "has a history of respectable work".
However, the 2008 research at the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit may revise the 1260–1390 dating toward which it originally contributed, leading its director Christopher Ramsey to call the scientific community to probe anew the authenticity of the Shroud. "With the radiocarbon measurements and with all of the other evidence which we have about the Shroud, there does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence" Gordan said to BBC News in 2008, after the new research emerged. Ramsey had stressed that he would be surprised if the 1988 tests were shown to be far off, let alone "a thousand years wrong", and insisted that he would be keeping an open mind.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
1. The forger first painted the bloodstains before he painted the image.
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
If the Shroud of Turin is a forgery of the 14th century, as the radiocarbonists claim, and not a genuine artifact of the 1st century, all of these qualities of the purported medieval "forger" must be accepted. If the Shroud was "forged" it would have to have been painted.
It is an irrefutable fact that there is NO paint or pigment on the Shroud of Turin leaving the only explanation of the technique of the forger to have used "photography" to manufacture the relic in the THIRTEENTH CENTURY!! Some authors have gone so far as to suggest exactly that. This is patently absurd!
CONCLUSION
The Shroud of Turin is a genuine artifact of a first century Roman crucifixion of an adult Jewish male. The radiocarbon dating placing the manufacture of the linen in the 14th century was flawed by extrinsic C14 accumulated over centuries of fungal growth, candle smoke and the intense heat of the fire of 1532. There is NO paint on the linen of the shroud and is not the artifice of a forger.
2. The forger integrated forensic qualities to his image that would only be known 20th century science.
3. The forger duplicated blood flow patterns in perfect forensic agreement to blood flow from the wrists at 65° from vertical to suggest the exact crucifixion position of the arms.
4. The forger "painted" the blood flows with genuine group AB blood that he had "spiked" with excessive amounts of bilirubin since the forger knew that severe concussive scourging with a Roman flagrum would cause erythrocyte hemolysis and jaundice.
5. The forger "plotted" the scourge marks on the body of the "man in the shroud" to be consistent under forensic examination with two scourgers of varying height.
6. The forger also duplicated abrasion and compression marks on the scourge wounds of the shoulders to suggest to 20th century forensic examiners that the "man in the shroud" had carried a heavy weight following the scourging.
7. The forger, against all convention of medieval artistry, painted the body he was "hoaxing" as Jesus of Nazareth, nude to conform to genuine Roman crucifixions.
8. The forger, as the forensic genius he was, illustrated the nails of crucifixion accurately through the wrists rather than the hands as in all other conventional medieval representations. He also took into account that the thumbs of a crucified victim would rotate inward as a result of median nerve damage as the nails passed through the spaces of Destot.
9. The forger was clever enough to "salt" the linen with the pollens of plants indigenous only to the environs of Jerusalem in anticipation of 20th century palynological analysis.
10. The forger was an artist who surpassed the talents of all known artists to the present day, being able to "paint" an anatomically and photographically perfect human image in a photographic negative manner, centuries before photography, and be able to do so without being able to check his work, close up, as he progressed.
11. The forger was able to paint this image with some unknown medium using an unknown technique, 30-40 feet away in order to discern the shadowy image as he continued.
12. The forger was clever enough to depict an adult with an unplaited pony-tail, sidelocks and a beard style consistent with a Jewish male of the 1st century.
13. The forger thought of such minute details as incorporating dirt from the bare feet of the "man in the shroud" consistent with the calcium carbonate soil of the environs of Jerusalem.
14. This forger was such an expert in 20th century biochemistry, medicine, forensic pathology and anatomy, botany, photography and 3-D computer analysis that he has foiled all the efforts of modern science. His unknown and historically unduplicated artistic technique surpasses all great historical artists, making the pale efforts of DaVinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael and Botticelli appear as infantile scribblings.
If the Shroud of Turin is a forgery of the 14th century, as the radiocarbonists claim, and not a genuine artifact of the 1st century, all of these qualities of the purported medieval "forger" must be accepted. If the Shroud was "forged" it would have to have been painted.
It is an irrefutable fact that there is NO paint or pigment on the Shroud of Turin leaving the only explanation of the technique of the forger to have used "photography" to manufacture the relic in the THIRTEENTH CENTURY!! Some authors have gone so far as to suggest exactly that. This is patently absurd!
CONCLUSION
The Shroud of Turin is a genuine artifact of a first century Roman crucifixion of an adult Jewish male. The radiocarbon dating placing the manufacture of the linen in the 14th century was flawed by extrinsic C14 accumulated over centuries of fungal growth, candle smoke and the intense heat of the fire of 1532. There is NO paint on the linen of the shroud and is not the artifice of a forger.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Tawuh Antut
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Daniyal;1136133 wrote: Tawuh Antut
"All empirical evidence and logical reasoning concerning the Shroud of Turin will lead any objective, rational person to the firm conclusion that the Shroud is an artifact created by an artist in the fourteenth-century." --Steven D. Schafersman
The shroud of Turin is a woven cloth about 14 feet long and 3.5 feet wide with an image of a man on it. Actually, it has two images, one frontal and one rear, with the heads meeting in the middle. It has been noted that if the shroud were really wrapped over a body there should be a space where the two heads meet. And the head is 5% too large for its body, the nose is disproportionate, and the arms are too long. Nevertheless, the image is believed by many to be a negative image of the crucified Christ and the shroud is believed to be his burial shroud. Most skeptics think the image is a painting and a pious hoax. The shroud is kept in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.
Apparently, the first historical mention of the shroud as the "shroud of Turin" is in the late 16th century when the shroud was brought to the cathedral in that city, though it allegedly was discovered in Turkey during one of the so-called "Holy" Crusades in the so-called "Middle" Ages. In 1988, the Vatican allowed the shroud to be dated by three independent sources--Oxford University, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology--and each of them dated the cloth as originating in medieval times, around 1350. The shroud allegedly was in a fire during the early part of the 16th century and, according to believers in the shroud's authenticity, that is what accounts for the carbon dating of the shroud as being no more than 650 years old. To non-believers, this sounds like an ad hoc hypothesis. According to microchemist Dr. Walter McCrone,
The suggestion that the 1532 Chambery fire changed the date of the cloth is ludicrous. Samples for C-dating are routinely and completely burned to CO2 as part of a well-tested purification procedure. The suggestions that modern biological contaminants were sufficient to modernize the date are also ridiculous. A weight of 20th century carbon equaling nearly two times the weight of the Shroud carbon itself would be required to change a 1st century date to the 14th century (see Carbon 14 graph). Besides this, the linen cloth samples were very carefully cleaned before analysis at each of the C-dating laboratories.*
It may interest skeptics to know that many people of faith believe that there is scientific evidence which supports their belief in the shroud's authenticity. Of course, the evidence is limited almost exclusively to pointing out facts that would be true if the shroud were authentic. For example, it is claimed to be the negative image of a crucifixion victim. It is claimed to be the image of a man brutally beaten in a way which corresponds to the way Jesus is thought to have been treated. It is also claimed that the image is not a painting but a miraculously transposed image. Skeptics disagree and argue that the shroud is a painting and a forgery.
the relic trade
Skeptics believe that the shroud of Turin is just another religious relic invented to beef up the pilgrimage business or impress infidels. (Another equally famous painting, also claimed to have miraculously appeared on a cloth, cropped up in Mexico in the 16th century, "Our Lady of Guadalupe.") The case for the forged shroud is made most forcefully by Joe Nickell in his Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin, which was written in collaboration with a panel of scientific and technical experts. The author claims that historical, iconographic, pathological, physical, and chemical evidence points to inauthenticity. The shroud is a 14th century painting, not a two-thousand year-old cloth with Christ's image.
One theory is that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Christ."* The model was covered in red ochre, "a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages, and pressed his forehead, cheekbones and other parts of his head and body on to the linen to create the image that exists today. Vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, was then splashed onto the image's wrists, feet and body to represent blood."
Walter McCrone analyzed the shroud and found traces of chemicals that were used in "two common artist's pigments of the 14th century, red ochre and vermilion, with a collagen (gelatin) tempera binder" (McCrone 1998). He makes his complete case that the shroud is a medieval painting in Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (March 1999). For his work, McCrone was awarded the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000.
the evidence for authenticity
The shroud, however, has many defenders who believe they have demonstrated that the cloth is not a forgery, dates from the time of Christ, is of miraculous origin, etc. It is claimed that there is type AB blood on the shroud. Skeptics deny it. Blood has not been identified on the shroud directly, but it has been identified on sticky tape that was used to lift fibrils from the shroud. Dried, aged blood is black. The stains on the shroud are red. Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint. Other tests by Adler and Heller have identified it as blood.* If it is blood, it could be the blood of some 14th century person. It could be the blood of someone wrapped in the shroud, or the blood of the creator of the shroud, or of anyone who has ever handled the shroud, or of anyone who handled the sticky tape. But even if there were blood on the shroud, that would have no bearing on the age of the shroud or on its authenticity.
It is claimed that the cloth has some pollen grains [pdf format] and images on it that are of plants found only in the Dead Sea region of Israel. Avinoam Danin, a botanist from Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims he has identified pollen from the tumbleweed Gundelia tournefortii and a bean caper on the shroud. He claims this combination is found only around Jerusalem. Some believers think the crown of thorns was made of this type of tumbleweed. However, Danin did not examine the shroud itself. His sample of pollen grains originated with Max Frei who tape-lifted pollen grain samples from the shroud. Frei's pollen grains have been controversial from the beginning. Frei, who once pronounced the forged "Hitler Diaries" to be genuine, probably introduced the pollen grains himself or was duped and innocently picked up pollen grains another pious fraud had introduced (Nickell).
Danin and his colleague Uri Baruch also claim that they found impressions of flowers on the shroud and that those flowers could only come from Israel. However, the floral images they see are hidden in mottled stains much the way the image of Jesus is hidden in a tortilla or the image of Mary is hidden in the bark of a tree. The first to see flowers in the stains was a psychiatrist, who was probably an expert at seeing personality traits in inkblots (Nickell, 1994)
Danin notes that another relic believed to be the burial face cloth of Jesus (the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain) contains the same two types of pollen grains as the Shroud and also is stained with type AB blood. Since the Sudarium is believed to have existed before the 8th century, according to Danin, there is "clear evidence that the shroud originated before the eighth century." The cloth is believed to have been in a chest of relics from at least the time of the Moorish invasion of Spain. It is said to have been in the chest when it was opened in 1075. But, since there is no blood on the shroud of Turin and there is no good reason to accept Danin's assumption that the pollen grains were on the Shroud from its origin, this argument is spurious.
In any case, the fact that pollen grains found near the Dead Sea or Jerusalem were on the shroud means little. Even if the pollen grains weren't introduced by some pious fraud, they could have been carried to the shroud by anyone who handled it. In short, the pollen grains could have originated in Jerusalem at any time before or after the appearance of the shroud in Italy. This is not a very strong piece of evidence.
Moreover, that there are two cloths believed to have been wrapped around the dead body of Jesus does not strengthen the claim that the shroud is authentic, but weakens it. How many more cloths are there that we don't know about? Were they mass produced like pieces of the true cross, straw from Christ's manger, chunks of Noah's ark? That cloths in Spain and Italy have identical pollen grains and blood stains is a bit less than "clear evidence" that they originated at the same time, especially since there is clear evidence that the claim that they have identical pollen grains and blood stains is not true. But, even if it were true, it would be of little value in establishing that either of these cloths touched the body of Jesus.
unraveling the weave
The weave of the cloth is said to be typical of the weave wealthy Jews would have had in the time of Jesus. The weave of the wealthy Jew doesn't seem consistent with the kind of people Jesus supposedly hung out with. However, as one reader, Hal Nelson, pointed out, "The linen cloth was supplied by Joseph of Arimathea, described in Matthew 27 as a "rich man" as well as a disciple. (The weave of Turin is herring bone; the weave of Oviedo is taffeta, proving, I suppose, that Jesus had disciples of all types, even AB.)
The image is of a man about six feet tall. The size and weave of the cloth have convinced one researcher/believer that the cloth may have been used as a tablecloth for the Last Supper. It could have been used for a lot of other things as well, I suppose.
To the believer, however, it is not the scientific proof of the shroud's authenticity that gives the shroud its special significance. It is the faith in the miraculous origin of the image that defines their belief. The miracle is taken as a sign that the resurrection really happened and that Jesus was divine.
Just another relic?
Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of the shroud of Turin controversy is the way true believers keep bringing up red herrings and the way skeptics keep taking the bait. Danin made his plant image/pollen grain argument in 1998, a follow-up on another plant image argument he made in 1997. He said in the 1998 article that his evidence showed that "the Shroud could have come only from the Near East." An AP article by Traci Angel (8/3/99) quotes Danin as saying that the evidence "clearly point to a floral grouping from the area surrounding Jerusalem." No doubt, a raging debate will follow (once again!) as to the origin of the plants and pollen gains. As if it matters. Even if it is established beyond any reasonable doubt that the shroud originated in Jerusalem and was used to wrap up the body of Jesus, so what? Would that prove Jesus rose from the dead? I don't think so. To believe anyone rose from the dead can't be based on physical evidence, because resurrection is a physical impossibility. Only religious faith can sustain such a belief. To believe that someone floated up to the sky and disappeared (i.e., rose into heaven) is also not going to be proved one way or the other by these shroud arguments. Finally, no amount of physical evidence could ever demonstrate that a man was God, was also his own Father and conceived without his mother ever having had sex. Thus, no matter how many brilliant scientists marshal forth their brilliant papers with evidence for images of Biblical ropes, sponges, thorns, spears, flowers, tumbleweeds, blood, etc., none of it has the slightest relevance for proving these matters of faith.
latest news
Dr. Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, claims that the part of the cloth tested and dated at around 1350 was not part of the original shroud. According to Rogers, the labs that dated the cloth to the 14th century tested a patch made to repair damage done by fire. How does he know this, since the patch was destroyed in the testing? According to shroud investigator Joe Nickell, Rogers "relied on two little threads allegedly left over from the sampling" and the word of "pro-authenticity researchers who guessed that the carbon-14 sample came from a 'rewoven area' of repair." According to Nickell, P.E. Damon's 1989 article published in Nature claims that "textile experts specifically made efforts to select a site for taking the radiocarbon sample that was away from patches and seams."
Says Nickell,
Rogers compared the threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove†the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth†of the Turin shroud.
The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sampleâ€â€”of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest†is gum Arabic....However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone.
Dr. Rogers estimates the actual date of the shroud to be between about 1,000 BCE. and 1700 CE. Still, all the evidence points toward the medieval forgery hypothesis. As Nickell notes, "no examples of its complex herringbone weave are known from the time of Jesus when, in any case, burial cloths tended to be of plain weave" (1998: 35). "In addition, Jewish burial practice utilized—and the Gospel of John specifically describes for Jesus—multiple burial wrappings with a separate cloth over the face."*
Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picturelike “blood†stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators. (Nickell 2005).
Of course, the cloth might be 3,000 or 2,000 years old, as Rogers speculates, but the image on the cloth could date from a much later period. No matter what date is correct for either the cloth or the image, the date cannot prove to any degree of reasonable probability that the cloth is the shroud Jesus was wrapped in and that the image is somehow miraculous. To believe that will always be a matter of faith, not scientific proof.
"All empirical evidence and logical reasoning concerning the Shroud of Turin will lead any objective, rational person to the firm conclusion that the Shroud is an artifact created by an artist in the fourteenth-century." --Steven D. Schafersman
The shroud of Turin is a woven cloth about 14 feet long and 3.5 feet wide with an image of a man on it. Actually, it has two images, one frontal and one rear, with the heads meeting in the middle. It has been noted that if the shroud were really wrapped over a body there should be a space where the two heads meet. And the head is 5% too large for its body, the nose is disproportionate, and the arms are too long. Nevertheless, the image is believed by many to be a negative image of the crucified Christ and the shroud is believed to be his burial shroud. Most skeptics think the image is a painting and a pious hoax. The shroud is kept in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.
Apparently, the first historical mention of the shroud as the "shroud of Turin" is in the late 16th century when the shroud was brought to the cathedral in that city, though it allegedly was discovered in Turkey during one of the so-called "Holy" Crusades in the so-called "Middle" Ages. In 1988, the Vatican allowed the shroud to be dated by three independent sources--Oxford University, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology--and each of them dated the cloth as originating in medieval times, around 1350. The shroud allegedly was in a fire during the early part of the 16th century and, according to believers in the shroud's authenticity, that is what accounts for the carbon dating of the shroud as being no more than 650 years old. To non-believers, this sounds like an ad hoc hypothesis. According to microchemist Dr. Walter McCrone,
The suggestion that the 1532 Chambery fire changed the date of the cloth is ludicrous. Samples for C-dating are routinely and completely burned to CO2 as part of a well-tested purification procedure. The suggestions that modern biological contaminants were sufficient to modernize the date are also ridiculous. A weight of 20th century carbon equaling nearly two times the weight of the Shroud carbon itself would be required to change a 1st century date to the 14th century (see Carbon 14 graph). Besides this, the linen cloth samples were very carefully cleaned before analysis at each of the C-dating laboratories.*
It may interest skeptics to know that many people of faith believe that there is scientific evidence which supports their belief in the shroud's authenticity. Of course, the evidence is limited almost exclusively to pointing out facts that would be true if the shroud were authentic. For example, it is claimed to be the negative image of a crucifixion victim. It is claimed to be the image of a man brutally beaten in a way which corresponds to the way Jesus is thought to have been treated. It is also claimed that the image is not a painting but a miraculously transposed image. Skeptics disagree and argue that the shroud is a painting and a forgery.
the relic trade
Skeptics believe that the shroud of Turin is just another religious relic invented to beef up the pilgrimage business or impress infidels. (Another equally famous painting, also claimed to have miraculously appeared on a cloth, cropped up in Mexico in the 16th century, "Our Lady of Guadalupe.") The case for the forged shroud is made most forcefully by Joe Nickell in his Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin, which was written in collaboration with a panel of scientific and technical experts. The author claims that historical, iconographic, pathological, physical, and chemical evidence points to inauthenticity. The shroud is a 14th century painting, not a two-thousand year-old cloth with Christ's image.
One theory is that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Christ."* The model was covered in red ochre, "a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages, and pressed his forehead, cheekbones and other parts of his head and body on to the linen to create the image that exists today. Vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, was then splashed onto the image's wrists, feet and body to represent blood."
Walter McCrone analyzed the shroud and found traces of chemicals that were used in "two common artist's pigments of the 14th century, red ochre and vermilion, with a collagen (gelatin) tempera binder" (McCrone 1998). He makes his complete case that the shroud is a medieval painting in Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (March 1999). For his work, McCrone was awarded the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000.
the evidence for authenticity
The shroud, however, has many defenders who believe they have demonstrated that the cloth is not a forgery, dates from the time of Christ, is of miraculous origin, etc. It is claimed that there is type AB blood on the shroud. Skeptics deny it. Blood has not been identified on the shroud directly, but it has been identified on sticky tape that was used to lift fibrils from the shroud. Dried, aged blood is black. The stains on the shroud are red. Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint. Other tests by Adler and Heller have identified it as blood.* If it is blood, it could be the blood of some 14th century person. It could be the blood of someone wrapped in the shroud, or the blood of the creator of the shroud, or of anyone who has ever handled the shroud, or of anyone who handled the sticky tape. But even if there were blood on the shroud, that would have no bearing on the age of the shroud or on its authenticity.
It is claimed that the cloth has some pollen grains [pdf format] and images on it that are of plants found only in the Dead Sea region of Israel. Avinoam Danin, a botanist from Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims he has identified pollen from the tumbleweed Gundelia tournefortii and a bean caper on the shroud. He claims this combination is found only around Jerusalem. Some believers think the crown of thorns was made of this type of tumbleweed. However, Danin did not examine the shroud itself. His sample of pollen grains originated with Max Frei who tape-lifted pollen grain samples from the shroud. Frei's pollen grains have been controversial from the beginning. Frei, who once pronounced the forged "Hitler Diaries" to be genuine, probably introduced the pollen grains himself or was duped and innocently picked up pollen grains another pious fraud had introduced (Nickell).
Danin and his colleague Uri Baruch also claim that they found impressions of flowers on the shroud and that those flowers could only come from Israel. However, the floral images they see are hidden in mottled stains much the way the image of Jesus is hidden in a tortilla or the image of Mary is hidden in the bark of a tree. The first to see flowers in the stains was a psychiatrist, who was probably an expert at seeing personality traits in inkblots (Nickell, 1994)
Danin notes that another relic believed to be the burial face cloth of Jesus (the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain) contains the same two types of pollen grains as the Shroud and also is stained with type AB blood. Since the Sudarium is believed to have existed before the 8th century, according to Danin, there is "clear evidence that the shroud originated before the eighth century." The cloth is believed to have been in a chest of relics from at least the time of the Moorish invasion of Spain. It is said to have been in the chest when it was opened in 1075. But, since there is no blood on the shroud of Turin and there is no good reason to accept Danin's assumption that the pollen grains were on the Shroud from its origin, this argument is spurious.
In any case, the fact that pollen grains found near the Dead Sea or Jerusalem were on the shroud means little. Even if the pollen grains weren't introduced by some pious fraud, they could have been carried to the shroud by anyone who handled it. In short, the pollen grains could have originated in Jerusalem at any time before or after the appearance of the shroud in Italy. This is not a very strong piece of evidence.
Moreover, that there are two cloths believed to have been wrapped around the dead body of Jesus does not strengthen the claim that the shroud is authentic, but weakens it. How many more cloths are there that we don't know about? Were they mass produced like pieces of the true cross, straw from Christ's manger, chunks of Noah's ark? That cloths in Spain and Italy have identical pollen grains and blood stains is a bit less than "clear evidence" that they originated at the same time, especially since there is clear evidence that the claim that they have identical pollen grains and blood stains is not true. But, even if it were true, it would be of little value in establishing that either of these cloths touched the body of Jesus.
unraveling the weave
The weave of the cloth is said to be typical of the weave wealthy Jews would have had in the time of Jesus. The weave of the wealthy Jew doesn't seem consistent with the kind of people Jesus supposedly hung out with. However, as one reader, Hal Nelson, pointed out, "The linen cloth was supplied by Joseph of Arimathea, described in Matthew 27 as a "rich man" as well as a disciple. (The weave of Turin is herring bone; the weave of Oviedo is taffeta, proving, I suppose, that Jesus had disciples of all types, even AB.)
The image is of a man about six feet tall. The size and weave of the cloth have convinced one researcher/believer that the cloth may have been used as a tablecloth for the Last Supper. It could have been used for a lot of other things as well, I suppose.
To the believer, however, it is not the scientific proof of the shroud's authenticity that gives the shroud its special significance. It is the faith in the miraculous origin of the image that defines their belief. The miracle is taken as a sign that the resurrection really happened and that Jesus was divine.
Just another relic?
Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of the shroud of Turin controversy is the way true believers keep bringing up red herrings and the way skeptics keep taking the bait. Danin made his plant image/pollen grain argument in 1998, a follow-up on another plant image argument he made in 1997. He said in the 1998 article that his evidence showed that "the Shroud could have come only from the Near East." An AP article by Traci Angel (8/3/99) quotes Danin as saying that the evidence "clearly point to a floral grouping from the area surrounding Jerusalem." No doubt, a raging debate will follow (once again!) as to the origin of the plants and pollen gains. As if it matters. Even if it is established beyond any reasonable doubt that the shroud originated in Jerusalem and was used to wrap up the body of Jesus, so what? Would that prove Jesus rose from the dead? I don't think so. To believe anyone rose from the dead can't be based on physical evidence, because resurrection is a physical impossibility. Only religious faith can sustain such a belief. To believe that someone floated up to the sky and disappeared (i.e., rose into heaven) is also not going to be proved one way or the other by these shroud arguments. Finally, no amount of physical evidence could ever demonstrate that a man was God, was also his own Father and conceived without his mother ever having had sex. Thus, no matter how many brilliant scientists marshal forth their brilliant papers with evidence for images of Biblical ropes, sponges, thorns, spears, flowers, tumbleweeds, blood, etc., none of it has the slightest relevance for proving these matters of faith.
latest news
Dr. Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, claims that the part of the cloth tested and dated at around 1350 was not part of the original shroud. According to Rogers, the labs that dated the cloth to the 14th century tested a patch made to repair damage done by fire. How does he know this, since the patch was destroyed in the testing? According to shroud investigator Joe Nickell, Rogers "relied on two little threads allegedly left over from the sampling" and the word of "pro-authenticity researchers who guessed that the carbon-14 sample came from a 'rewoven area' of repair." According to Nickell, P.E. Damon's 1989 article published in Nature claims that "textile experts specifically made efforts to select a site for taking the radiocarbon sample that was away from patches and seams."
Says Nickell,
Rogers compared the threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove†the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth†of the Turin shroud.
The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sampleâ€â€”of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest†is gum Arabic....However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone.
Dr. Rogers estimates the actual date of the shroud to be between about 1,000 BCE. and 1700 CE. Still, all the evidence points toward the medieval forgery hypothesis. As Nickell notes, "no examples of its complex herringbone weave are known from the time of Jesus when, in any case, burial cloths tended to be of plain weave" (1998: 35). "In addition, Jewish burial practice utilized—and the Gospel of John specifically describes for Jesus—multiple burial wrappings with a separate cloth over the face."*
Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picturelike “blood†stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators. (Nickell 2005).
Of course, the cloth might be 3,000 or 2,000 years old, as Rogers speculates, but the image on the cloth could date from a much later period. No matter what date is correct for either the cloth or the image, the date cannot prove to any degree of reasonable probability that the cloth is the shroud Jesus was wrapped in and that the image is somehow miraculous. To believe that will always be a matter of faith, not scientific proof.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
its masonic it dates from 1307
it is the shroud of a knights templer
ya asked
it is the shroud of a knights templer
ya asked
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
oscar;1136642 wrote: "All empirical evidence and logical reasoning concerning the Shroud of Turin will lead any objective, rational person to the firm conclusion that the Shroud is an artifact created by an artist in the fourteenth-century." --Steven D. Schafersman
The shroud of Turin is a woven cloth about 14 feet long and 3.5 feet wide with an image of a man on it. Actually, it has two images, one frontal and one rear, with the heads meeting in the middle. It has been noted that if the shroud were really wrapped over a body there should be a space where the two heads meet. And the head is 5% too large for its body, the nose is disproportionate, and the arms are too long. Nevertheless, the image is believed by many to be a negative image of the crucified Christ and the shroud is believed to be his burial shroud. Most skeptics think the image is a painting and a pious hoax. The shroud is kept in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.
Apparently, the first historical mention of the shroud as the "shroud of Turin" is in the late 16th century when the shroud was brought to the cathedral in that city, though it allegedly was discovered in Turkey during one of the so-called "Holy" Crusades in the so-called "Middle" Ages. In 1988, the Vatican allowed the shroud to be dated by three independent sources--Oxford University, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology--and each of them dated the cloth as originating in medieval times, around 1350. The shroud allegedly was in a fire during the early part of the 16th century and, according to believers in the shroud's authenticity, that is what accounts for the carbon dating of the shroud as being no more than 650 years old. To non-believers, this sounds like an ad hoc hypothesis. According to microchemist Dr. Walter McCrone,
The suggestion that the 1532 Chambery fire changed the date of the cloth is ludicrous. Samples for C-dating are routinely and completely burned to CO2 as part of a well-tested purification procedure. The suggestions that modern biological contaminants were sufficient to modernize the date are also ridiculous. A weight of 20th century carbon equaling nearly two times the weight of the Shroud carbon itself would be required to change a 1st century date to the 14th century (see Carbon 14 graph). Besides this, the linen cloth samples were very carefully cleaned before analysis at each of the C-dating laboratories.*
It may interest skeptics to know that many people of faith believe that there is scientific evidence which supports their belief in the shroud's authenticity. Of course, the evidence is limited almost exclusively to pointing out facts that would be true if the shroud were authentic. For example, it is claimed to be the negative image of a crucifixion victim. It is claimed to be the image of a man brutally beaten in a way which corresponds to the way Jesus is thought to have been treated. It is also claimed that the image is not a painting but a miraculously transposed image. Skeptics disagree and argue that the shroud is a painting and a forgery.
the relic trade
Skeptics believe that the shroud of Turin is just another religious relic invented to beef up the pilgrimage business or impress infidels. (Another equally famous painting, also claimed to have miraculously appeared on a cloth, cropped up in Mexico in the 16th century, "Our Lady of Guadalupe.") The case for the forged shroud is made most forcefully by Joe Nickell in his Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin, which was written in collaboration with a panel of scientific and technical experts. The author claims that historical, iconographic, pathological, physical, and chemical evidence points to inauthenticity. The shroud is a 14th century painting, not a two-thousand year-old cloth with Christ's image.
One theory is that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Christ."* The model was covered in red ochre, "a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages, and pressed his forehead, cheekbones and other parts of his head and body on to the linen to create the image that exists today. Vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, was then splashed onto the image's wrists, feet and body to represent blood."
Walter McCrone analyzed the shroud and found traces of chemicals that were used in "two common artist's pigments of the 14th century, red ochre and vermilion, with a collagen (gelatin) tempera binder" (McCrone 1998). He makes his complete case that the shroud is a medieval painting in Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (March 1999). For his work, McCrone was awarded the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000.
the evidence for authenticity
The shroud, however, has many defenders who believe they have demonstrated that the cloth is not a forgery, dates from the time of Christ, is of miraculous origin, etc. It is claimed that there is type AB blood on the shroud. Skeptics deny it. Blood has not been identified on the shroud directly, but it has been identified on sticky tape that was used to lift fibrils from the shroud. Dried, aged blood is black. The stains on the shroud are red. Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint. Other tests by Adler and Heller have identified it as blood.* If it is blood, it could be the blood of some 14th century person. It could be the blood of someone wrapped in the shroud, or the blood of the creator of the shroud, or of anyone who has ever handled the shroud, or of anyone who handled the sticky tape. But even if there were blood on the shroud, that would have no bearing on the age of the shroud or on its authenticity.
It is claimed that the cloth has some pollen grains [pdf format] and images on it that are of plants found only in the Dead Sea region of Israel. Avinoam Danin, a botanist from Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims he has identified pollen from the tumbleweed Gundelia tournefortii and a bean caper on the shroud. He claims this combination is found only around Jerusalem. Some believers think the crown of thorns was made of this type of tumbleweed. However, Danin did not examine the shroud itself. His sample of pollen grains originated with Max Frei who tape-lifted pollen grain samples from the shroud. Frei's pollen grains have been controversial from the beginning. Frei, who once pronounced the forged "Hitler Diaries" to be genuine, probably introduced the pollen grains himself or was duped and innocently picked up pollen grains another pious fraud had introduced (Nickell).
Danin and his colleague Uri Baruch also claim that they found impressions of flowers on the shroud and that those flowers could only come from Israel. However, the floral images they see are hidden in mottled stains much the way the image of Jesus is hidden in a tortilla or the image of Mary is hidden in the bark of a tree. The first to see flowers in the stains was a psychiatrist, who was probably an expert at seeing personality traits in inkblots (Nickell, 1994)
Danin notes that another relic believed to be the burial face cloth of Jesus (the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain) contains the same two types of pollen grains as the Shroud and also is stained with type AB blood. Since the Sudarium is believed to have existed before the 8th century, according to Danin, there is "clear evidence that the shroud originated before the eighth century." The cloth is believed to have been in a chest of relics from at least the time of the Moorish invasion of Spain. It is said to have been in the chest when it was opened in 1075. But, since there is no blood on the shroud of Turin and there is no good reason to accept Danin's assumption that the pollen grains were on the Shroud from its origin, this argument is spurious.
In any case, the fact that pollen grains found near the Dead Sea or Jerusalem were on the shroud means little. Even if the pollen grains weren't introduced by some pious fraud, they could have been carried to the shroud by anyone who handled it. In short, the pollen grains could have originated in Jerusalem at any time before or after the appearance of the shroud in Italy. This is not a very strong piece of evidence.
Moreover, that there are two cloths believed to have been wrapped around the dead body of Jesus does not strengthen the claim that the shroud is authentic, but weakens it. How many more cloths are there that we don't know about? Were they mass produced like pieces of the true cross, straw from Christ's manger, chunks of Noah's ark? That cloths in Spain and Italy have identical pollen grains and blood stains is a bit less than "clear evidence" that they originated at the same time, especially since there is clear evidence that the claim that they have identical pollen grains and blood stains is not true. But, even if it were true, it would be of little value in establishing that either of these cloths touched the body of Jesus.
unraveling the weave
The weave of the cloth is said to be typical of the weave wealthy Jews would have had in the time of Jesus. The weave of the wealthy Jew doesn't seem consistent with the kind of people Jesus supposedly hung out with. However, as one reader, Hal Nelson, pointed out, "The linen cloth was supplied by Joseph of Arimathea, described in Matthew 27 as a "rich man" as well as a disciple. (The weave of Turin is herring bone; the weave of Oviedo is taffeta, proving, I suppose, that Jesus had disciples of all types, even AB.)
The image is of a man about six feet tall. The size and weave of the cloth have convinced one researcher/believer that the cloth may have been used as a tablecloth for the Last Supper. It could have been used for a lot of other things as well, I suppose.
To the believer, however, it is not the scientific proof of the shroud's authenticity that gives the shroud its special significance. It is the faith in the miraculous origin of the image that defines their belief. The miracle is taken as a sign that the resurrection really happened and that Jesus was divine.
Just another relic?
Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of the shroud of Turin controversy is the way true believers keep bringing up red herrings and the way skeptics keep taking the bait. Danin made his plant image/pollen grain argument in 1998, a follow-up on another plant image argument he made in 1997. He said in the 1998 article that his evidence showed that "the Shroud could have come only from the Near East." An AP article by Traci Angel (8/3/99) quotes Danin as saying that the evidence "clearly point to a floral grouping from the area surrounding Jerusalem." No doubt, a raging debate will follow (once again!) as to the origin of the plants and pollen gains. As if it matters. Even if it is established beyond any reasonable doubt that the shroud originated in Jerusalem and was used to wrap up the body of Jesus, so what? Would that prove Jesus rose from the dead? I don't think so. To believe anyone rose from the dead can't be based on physical evidence, because resurrection is a physical impossibility. Only religious faith can sustain such a belief. To believe that someone floated up to the sky and disappeared (i.e., rose into heaven) is also not going to be proved one way or the other by these shroud arguments. Finally, no amount of physical evidence could ever demonstrate that a man was God, was also his own Father and conceived without his mother ever having had sex. Thus, no matter how many brilliant scientists marshal forth their brilliant papers with evidence for images of Biblical ropes, sponges, thorns, spears, flowers, tumbleweeds, blood, etc., none of it has the slightest relevance for proving these matters of faith.
latest news
Dr. Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, claims that the part of the cloth tested and dated at around 1350 was not part of the original shroud. According to Rogers, the labs that dated the cloth to the 14th century tested a patch made to repair damage done by fire. How does he know this, since the patch was destroyed in the testing? According to shroud investigator Joe Nickell, Rogers "relied on two little threads allegedly left over from the sampling" and the word of "pro-authenticity researchers who guessed that the carbon-14 sample came from a 'rewoven area' of repair." According to Nickell, P.E. Damon's 1989 article published in Nature claims that "textile experts specifically made efforts to select a site for taking the radiocarbon sample that was away from patches and seams."
Says Nickell,
Rogers compared the threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove†the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth†of the Turin shroud.
The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sampleâ€â€”of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest†is gum Arabic....However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone.
Dr. Rogers estimates the actual date of the shroud to be between about 1,000 BCE. and 1700 CE. Still, all the evidence points toward the medieval forgery hypothesis. As Nickell notes, "no examples of its complex herringbone weave are known from the time of Jesus when, in any case, burial cloths tended to be of plain weave" (1998: 35). "In addition, Jewish burial practice utilized—and the Gospel of John specifically describes for Jesus—multiple burial wrappings with a separate cloth over the face."*
Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picturelike “blood†stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators. (Nickell 2005).
Of course, the cloth might be 3,000 or 2,000 years old, as Rogers speculates, but the image on the cloth could date from a much later period. No matter what date is correct for either the cloth or the image, the date cannot prove to any degree of reasonable probability that the cloth is the shroud Jesus was wrapped in and that the image is somehow miraculous. To believe that will always be a matter of faith, not scientific proof.
I see You Have Done Your HomeWORK
The shroud of Turin is a woven cloth about 14 feet long and 3.5 feet wide with an image of a man on it. Actually, it has two images, one frontal and one rear, with the heads meeting in the middle. It has been noted that if the shroud were really wrapped over a body there should be a space where the two heads meet. And the head is 5% too large for its body, the nose is disproportionate, and the arms are too long. Nevertheless, the image is believed by many to be a negative image of the crucified Christ and the shroud is believed to be his burial shroud. Most skeptics think the image is a painting and a pious hoax. The shroud is kept in the cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy.
Apparently, the first historical mention of the shroud as the "shroud of Turin" is in the late 16th century when the shroud was brought to the cathedral in that city, though it allegedly was discovered in Turkey during one of the so-called "Holy" Crusades in the so-called "Middle" Ages. In 1988, the Vatican allowed the shroud to be dated by three independent sources--Oxford University, the University of Arizona, and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology--and each of them dated the cloth as originating in medieval times, around 1350. The shroud allegedly was in a fire during the early part of the 16th century and, according to believers in the shroud's authenticity, that is what accounts for the carbon dating of the shroud as being no more than 650 years old. To non-believers, this sounds like an ad hoc hypothesis. According to microchemist Dr. Walter McCrone,
The suggestion that the 1532 Chambery fire changed the date of the cloth is ludicrous. Samples for C-dating are routinely and completely burned to CO2 as part of a well-tested purification procedure. The suggestions that modern biological contaminants were sufficient to modernize the date are also ridiculous. A weight of 20th century carbon equaling nearly two times the weight of the Shroud carbon itself would be required to change a 1st century date to the 14th century (see Carbon 14 graph). Besides this, the linen cloth samples were very carefully cleaned before analysis at each of the C-dating laboratories.*
It may interest skeptics to know that many people of faith believe that there is scientific evidence which supports their belief in the shroud's authenticity. Of course, the evidence is limited almost exclusively to pointing out facts that would be true if the shroud were authentic. For example, it is claimed to be the negative image of a crucifixion victim. It is claimed to be the image of a man brutally beaten in a way which corresponds to the way Jesus is thought to have been treated. It is also claimed that the image is not a painting but a miraculously transposed image. Skeptics disagree and argue that the shroud is a painting and a forgery.
the relic trade
Skeptics believe that the shroud of Turin is just another religious relic invented to beef up the pilgrimage business or impress infidels. (Another equally famous painting, also claimed to have miraculously appeared on a cloth, cropped up in Mexico in the 16th century, "Our Lady of Guadalupe.") The case for the forged shroud is made most forcefully by Joe Nickell in his Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin, which was written in collaboration with a panel of scientific and technical experts. The author claims that historical, iconographic, pathological, physical, and chemical evidence points to inauthenticity. The shroud is a 14th century painting, not a two-thousand year-old cloth with Christ's image.
One theory is that "a male model was daubed with paint and wrapped in the sheet to create the shadowy figure of Christ."* The model was covered in red ochre, "a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages, and pressed his forehead, cheekbones and other parts of his head and body on to the linen to create the image that exists today. Vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, was then splashed onto the image's wrists, feet and body to represent blood."
Walter McCrone analyzed the shroud and found traces of chemicals that were used in "two common artist's pigments of the 14th century, red ochre and vermilion, with a collagen (gelatin) tempera binder" (McCrone 1998). He makes his complete case that the shroud is a medieval painting in Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (March 1999). For his work, McCrone was awarded the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000.
the evidence for authenticity
The shroud, however, has many defenders who believe they have demonstrated that the cloth is not a forgery, dates from the time of Christ, is of miraculous origin, etc. It is claimed that there is type AB blood on the shroud. Skeptics deny it. Blood has not been identified on the shroud directly, but it has been identified on sticky tape that was used to lift fibrils from the shroud. Dried, aged blood is black. The stains on the shroud are red. Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint. Other tests by Adler and Heller have identified it as blood.* If it is blood, it could be the blood of some 14th century person. It could be the blood of someone wrapped in the shroud, or the blood of the creator of the shroud, or of anyone who has ever handled the shroud, or of anyone who handled the sticky tape. But even if there were blood on the shroud, that would have no bearing on the age of the shroud or on its authenticity.
It is claimed that the cloth has some pollen grains [pdf format] and images on it that are of plants found only in the Dead Sea region of Israel. Avinoam Danin, a botanist from Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims he has identified pollen from the tumbleweed Gundelia tournefortii and a bean caper on the shroud. He claims this combination is found only around Jerusalem. Some believers think the crown of thorns was made of this type of tumbleweed. However, Danin did not examine the shroud itself. His sample of pollen grains originated with Max Frei who tape-lifted pollen grain samples from the shroud. Frei's pollen grains have been controversial from the beginning. Frei, who once pronounced the forged "Hitler Diaries" to be genuine, probably introduced the pollen grains himself or was duped and innocently picked up pollen grains another pious fraud had introduced (Nickell).
Danin and his colleague Uri Baruch also claim that they found impressions of flowers on the shroud and that those flowers could only come from Israel. However, the floral images they see are hidden in mottled stains much the way the image of Jesus is hidden in a tortilla or the image of Mary is hidden in the bark of a tree. The first to see flowers in the stains was a psychiatrist, who was probably an expert at seeing personality traits in inkblots (Nickell, 1994)
Danin notes that another relic believed to be the burial face cloth of Jesus (the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain) contains the same two types of pollen grains as the Shroud and also is stained with type AB blood. Since the Sudarium is believed to have existed before the 8th century, according to Danin, there is "clear evidence that the shroud originated before the eighth century." The cloth is believed to have been in a chest of relics from at least the time of the Moorish invasion of Spain. It is said to have been in the chest when it was opened in 1075. But, since there is no blood on the shroud of Turin and there is no good reason to accept Danin's assumption that the pollen grains were on the Shroud from its origin, this argument is spurious.
In any case, the fact that pollen grains found near the Dead Sea or Jerusalem were on the shroud means little. Even if the pollen grains weren't introduced by some pious fraud, they could have been carried to the shroud by anyone who handled it. In short, the pollen grains could have originated in Jerusalem at any time before or after the appearance of the shroud in Italy. This is not a very strong piece of evidence.
Moreover, that there are two cloths believed to have been wrapped around the dead body of Jesus does not strengthen the claim that the shroud is authentic, but weakens it. How many more cloths are there that we don't know about? Were they mass produced like pieces of the true cross, straw from Christ's manger, chunks of Noah's ark? That cloths in Spain and Italy have identical pollen grains and blood stains is a bit less than "clear evidence" that they originated at the same time, especially since there is clear evidence that the claim that they have identical pollen grains and blood stains is not true. But, even if it were true, it would be of little value in establishing that either of these cloths touched the body of Jesus.
unraveling the weave
The weave of the cloth is said to be typical of the weave wealthy Jews would have had in the time of Jesus. The weave of the wealthy Jew doesn't seem consistent with the kind of people Jesus supposedly hung out with. However, as one reader, Hal Nelson, pointed out, "The linen cloth was supplied by Joseph of Arimathea, described in Matthew 27 as a "rich man" as well as a disciple. (The weave of Turin is herring bone; the weave of Oviedo is taffeta, proving, I suppose, that Jesus had disciples of all types, even AB.)
The image is of a man about six feet tall. The size and weave of the cloth have convinced one researcher/believer that the cloth may have been used as a tablecloth for the Last Supper. It could have been used for a lot of other things as well, I suppose.
To the believer, however, it is not the scientific proof of the shroud's authenticity that gives the shroud its special significance. It is the faith in the miraculous origin of the image that defines their belief. The miracle is taken as a sign that the resurrection really happened and that Jesus was divine.
Just another relic?
Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of the shroud of Turin controversy is the way true believers keep bringing up red herrings and the way skeptics keep taking the bait. Danin made his plant image/pollen grain argument in 1998, a follow-up on another plant image argument he made in 1997. He said in the 1998 article that his evidence showed that "the Shroud could have come only from the Near East." An AP article by Traci Angel (8/3/99) quotes Danin as saying that the evidence "clearly point to a floral grouping from the area surrounding Jerusalem." No doubt, a raging debate will follow (once again!) as to the origin of the plants and pollen gains. As if it matters. Even if it is established beyond any reasonable doubt that the shroud originated in Jerusalem and was used to wrap up the body of Jesus, so what? Would that prove Jesus rose from the dead? I don't think so. To believe anyone rose from the dead can't be based on physical evidence, because resurrection is a physical impossibility. Only religious faith can sustain such a belief. To believe that someone floated up to the sky and disappeared (i.e., rose into heaven) is also not going to be proved one way or the other by these shroud arguments. Finally, no amount of physical evidence could ever demonstrate that a man was God, was also his own Father and conceived without his mother ever having had sex. Thus, no matter how many brilliant scientists marshal forth their brilliant papers with evidence for images of Biblical ropes, sponges, thorns, spears, flowers, tumbleweeds, blood, etc., none of it has the slightest relevance for proving these matters of faith.
latest news
Dr. Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, claims that the part of the cloth tested and dated at around 1350 was not part of the original shroud. According to Rogers, the labs that dated the cloth to the 14th century tested a patch made to repair damage done by fire. How does he know this, since the patch was destroyed in the testing? According to shroud investigator Joe Nickell, Rogers "relied on two little threads allegedly left over from the sampling" and the word of "pro-authenticity researchers who guessed that the carbon-14 sample came from a 'rewoven area' of repair." According to Nickell, P.E. Damon's 1989 article published in Nature claims that "textile experts specifically made efforts to select a site for taking the radiocarbon sample that was away from patches and seams."
Says Nickell,
Rogers compared the threads with some small samples from elsewhere on the Shroud, claiming to find differences between the two sets of threads that “prove†the radiocarbon sample “was not part of the original cloth†of the Turin shroud.
The reported differences include the presence—allegedly only on the “radiocarbon sampleâ€â€”of cotton fibers and a coating of madder root dye in a binding medium that his tests “suggest†is gum Arabic....However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone.
Dr. Rogers estimates the actual date of the shroud to be between about 1,000 BCE. and 1700 CE. Still, all the evidence points toward the medieval forgery hypothesis. As Nickell notes, "no examples of its complex herringbone weave are known from the time of Jesus when, in any case, burial cloths tended to be of plain weave" (1998: 35). "In addition, Jewish burial practice utilized—and the Gospel of John specifically describes for Jesus—multiple burial wrappings with a separate cloth over the face."*
Other evidence of medieval fakery includes the shroud’s lack of historical record prior to the mid-fourteenth century—when a bishop reported the artist’s confession—as well as serious anatomical problems, the lack of wraparound distortions, the resemblance of the figure to medieval depictions of Jesus, and suspiciously bright red and picturelike “blood†stains which failed a battery of sophisticated tests by forensic serologists, among many other indicators. (Nickell 2005).
Of course, the cloth might be 3,000 or 2,000 years old, as Rogers speculates, but the image on the cloth could date from a much later period. No matter what date is correct for either the cloth or the image, the date cannot prove to any degree of reasonable probability that the cloth is the shroud Jesus was wrapped in and that the image is somehow miraculous. To believe that will always be a matter of faith, not scientific proof.
I see You Have Done Your HomeWORK
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
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Oscar Namechange
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Daniyal;1137042 wrote: I see You Have Done Your HomeWORK :wah: Your threads are the only one's i bother to research...got to have my imfo correct :wah:
:wah: Your threads are the only one's i bother to research...got to have my imfo correct :wah:At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
The Shroud of Turin was unveiled for a rare
two-month public viewing on Saturday, August 12, in Turin, Italy. Archbishop
Severino Poletto has assured reporters that "the church is not afraid of
science." He and other caretakers of the shroud say they are open to a
scientific reexamination of the cloth. But will any one test settle the
dispute over the shroud's history? Most researchers are eager to test
hypotheses that focus on one narrow aspect of the shroud. One promotes the
pollen evidence, another questions the radiocarbon dating, a third looks for
proofs in the weave of the cloth.
Joe Nickell, Senior Research Fellow of the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) points out that even
definitive tests are vulnerable to partisan disputes. Scientists insist that
the 1988 radiocarbon dating--performed at three independent
labs--demonstrates once and for all that the shroud is a 14th century
forgery. However, those hoping to buttress the cloth's claim to authenticity
have suggested that bacteria or scorching from the 1532 fire may have
contaminated the sample.
Nickell believes that examining the preponderance of evidence and
demonstrating how each piece supports the other makes the strongest case. He
has employed this method in his research and is convinced that the shroud is
indeed a medieval forgery. Nickell is author of Inquest on the Shroud of
Turin (Prometheus 1998)-a study that relies on evidence from the Catholic
church's own documents and the gospel account of St. John, in addition to the
"hard" scientific evidence from chemical, microscopic and radiocarbon
analyses . For Nickell, documentary and forensic findings corroborate each
other and point to one answer. "The preponderance of evidence" says Nickell
"leads to the conclusion that the shroud is the work of a medieval artisan."
The records of the Turin shroud start abruptly in the 14th century A.D. The
earliest document is a bishop's report to Pope Clement VII, dated 1389. The
report states that the cloth had been created as part of a faith-healing
scheme, "the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it."
Samples of what was claimed to be blood failed a battery of tests in 1973.
In the late 1970s, forensic microanalyst Walter McCrone, an expert in
examining the authenticity of documents and paintings, identified the "blood"
of the shroud as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint, and concluded that
the entire image was painted.
The 1988 shroud carbon dating--conducted by laboratories in Zurich,
Switzerland, Oxford, England, and the University of Arizona--yielded close
results, giving a date range of A.D.1260-1390. This range coincides with the
forger's confession in the report to Pope Clement. Claims that the carbon
dating was flawed ignore the fact that the shroud would have to be
contaminated with twice its own weight in contaminating material to push the
cloth's age back to the first century A.D.
Finally, the Turin shroud contradicts the account of Jesus' burial in the
Gospel of John. In the Greek New Testament, Jesus is said to have been
wrapped in othonia-strips of linen, not a whole linen sheet. (John 19:40 and
20:6-7). John also says that Jesus' body was buried in a large quantity of
aloes and myrrh: no trace of either spice has been found on the shroud.
"Defenders of the shroud typically start with their desired conclusion and
work backward to the evidence; science begins with the evidence and proceeds
forward to a conclusion," says Nickell. Together, the facts corroborate each
other in rejecting the claim that the shroud dates to the time of Jesus.
two-month public viewing on Saturday, August 12, in Turin, Italy. Archbishop
Severino Poletto has assured reporters that "the church is not afraid of
science." He and other caretakers of the shroud say they are open to a
scientific reexamination of the cloth. But will any one test settle the
dispute over the shroud's history? Most researchers are eager to test
hypotheses that focus on one narrow aspect of the shroud. One promotes the
pollen evidence, another questions the radiocarbon dating, a third looks for
proofs in the weave of the cloth.
Joe Nickell, Senior Research Fellow of the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) points out that even
definitive tests are vulnerable to partisan disputes. Scientists insist that
the 1988 radiocarbon dating--performed at three independent
labs--demonstrates once and for all that the shroud is a 14th century
forgery. However, those hoping to buttress the cloth's claim to authenticity
have suggested that bacteria or scorching from the 1532 fire may have
contaminated the sample.
Nickell believes that examining the preponderance of evidence and
demonstrating how each piece supports the other makes the strongest case. He
has employed this method in his research and is convinced that the shroud is
indeed a medieval forgery. Nickell is author of Inquest on the Shroud of
Turin (Prometheus 1998)-a study that relies on evidence from the Catholic
church's own documents and the gospel account of St. John, in addition to the
"hard" scientific evidence from chemical, microscopic and radiocarbon
analyses . For Nickell, documentary and forensic findings corroborate each
other and point to one answer. "The preponderance of evidence" says Nickell
"leads to the conclusion that the shroud is the work of a medieval artisan."
The records of the Turin shroud start abruptly in the 14th century A.D. The
earliest document is a bishop's report to Pope Clement VII, dated 1389. The
report states that the cloth had been created as part of a faith-healing
scheme, "the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it."
Samples of what was claimed to be blood failed a battery of tests in 1973.
In the late 1970s, forensic microanalyst Walter McCrone, an expert in
examining the authenticity of documents and paintings, identified the "blood"
of the shroud as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint, and concluded that
the entire image was painted.
The 1988 shroud carbon dating--conducted by laboratories in Zurich,
Switzerland, Oxford, England, and the University of Arizona--yielded close
results, giving a date range of A.D.1260-1390. This range coincides with the
forger's confession in the report to Pope Clement. Claims that the carbon
dating was flawed ignore the fact that the shroud would have to be
contaminated with twice its own weight in contaminating material to push the
cloth's age back to the first century A.D.
Finally, the Turin shroud contradicts the account of Jesus' burial in the
Gospel of John. In the Greek New Testament, Jesus is said to have been
wrapped in othonia-strips of linen, not a whole linen sheet. (John 19:40 and
20:6-7). John also says that Jesus' body was buried in a large quantity of
aloes and myrrh: no trace of either spice has been found on the shroud.
"Defenders of the shroud typically start with their desired conclusion and
work backward to the evidence; science begins with the evidence and proceeds
forward to a conclusion," says Nickell. Together, the facts corroborate each
other in rejecting the claim that the shroud dates to the time of Jesus.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
oscar;1137074 wrote: The Shroud of Turin was unveiled for a rare
two-month public viewing on Saturday, August 12, in Turin, Italy. Archbishop
Severino Poletto has assured reporters that "the church is not afraid of
science." He and other caretakers of the shroud say they are open to a
scientific reexamination of the cloth. But will any one test settle the
dispute over the shroud's history? Most researchers are eager to test
hypotheses that focus on one narrow aspect of the shroud. One promotes the
pollen evidence, another questions the radiocarbon dating, a third looks for
proofs in the weave of the cloth.
Joe Nickell, Senior Research Fellow of the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) points out that even
definitive tests are vulnerable to partisan disputes. Scientists insist that
the 1988 radiocarbon dating--performed at three independent
labs--demonstrates once and for all that the shroud is a 14th century
forgery. However, those hoping to buttress the cloth's claim to authenticity
have suggested that bacteria or scorching from the 1532 fire may have
contaminated the sample.
Nickell believes that examining the preponderance of evidence and
demonstrating how each piece supports the other makes the strongest case. He
has employed this method in his research and is convinced that the shroud is
indeed a medieval forgery. Nickell is author of Inquest on the Shroud of
Turin (Prometheus 1998)-a study that relies on evidence from the Catholic
church's own documents and the gospel account of St. John, in addition to the
"hard" scientific evidence from chemical, microscopic and radiocarbon
analyses . For Nickell, documentary and forensic findings corroborate each
other and point to one answer. "The preponderance of evidence" says Nickell
"leads to the conclusion that the shroud is the work of a medieval artisan."
The records of the Turin shroud start abruptly in the 14th century A.D. The
earliest document is a bishop's report to Pope Clement VII, dated 1389. The
report states that the cloth had been created as part of a faith-healing
scheme, "the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it."
Samples of what was claimed to be blood failed a battery of tests in 1973.
In the late 1970s, forensic microanalyst Walter McCrone, an expert in
examining the authenticity of documents and paintings, identified the "blood"
of the shroud as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint, and concluded that
the entire image was painted.
The 1988 shroud carbon dating--conducted by laboratories in Zurich,
Switzerland, Oxford, England, and the University of Arizona--yielded close
results, giving a date range of A.D.1260-1390. This range coincides with the
forger's confession in the report to Pope Clement. Claims that the carbon
dating was flawed ignore the fact that the shroud would have to be
contaminated with twice its own weight in contaminating material to push the
cloth's age back to the first century A.D.
Finally, the Turin shroud contradicts the account of Jesus' burial in the
Gospel of John. In the Greek New Testament, Jesus is said to have been
wrapped in othonia-strips of linen, not a whole linen sheet. (John 19:40 and
20:6-7). John also says that Jesus' body was buried in a large quantity of
aloes and myrrh: no trace of either spice has been found on the shroud.
"Defenders of the shroud typically start with their desired conclusion and
work backward to the evidence; science begins with the evidence and proceeds
forward to a conclusion," says Nickell. Together, the facts corroborate each
other in rejecting the claim that the shroud dates to the time of Jesus.
I Must Say You Don't Half Step .
two-month public viewing on Saturday, August 12, in Turin, Italy. Archbishop
Severino Poletto has assured reporters that "the church is not afraid of
science." He and other caretakers of the shroud say they are open to a
scientific reexamination of the cloth. But will any one test settle the
dispute over the shroud's history? Most researchers are eager to test
hypotheses that focus on one narrow aspect of the shroud. One promotes the
pollen evidence, another questions the radiocarbon dating, a third looks for
proofs in the weave of the cloth.
Joe Nickell, Senior Research Fellow of the Committee for the Scientific
Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) points out that even
definitive tests are vulnerable to partisan disputes. Scientists insist that
the 1988 radiocarbon dating--performed at three independent
labs--demonstrates once and for all that the shroud is a 14th century
forgery. However, those hoping to buttress the cloth's claim to authenticity
have suggested that bacteria or scorching from the 1532 fire may have
contaminated the sample.
Nickell believes that examining the preponderance of evidence and
demonstrating how each piece supports the other makes the strongest case. He
has employed this method in his research and is convinced that the shroud is
indeed a medieval forgery. Nickell is author of Inquest on the Shroud of
Turin (Prometheus 1998)-a study that relies on evidence from the Catholic
church's own documents and the gospel account of St. John, in addition to the
"hard" scientific evidence from chemical, microscopic and radiocarbon
analyses . For Nickell, documentary and forensic findings corroborate each
other and point to one answer. "The preponderance of evidence" says Nickell
"leads to the conclusion that the shroud is the work of a medieval artisan."
The records of the Turin shroud start abruptly in the 14th century A.D. The
earliest document is a bishop's report to Pope Clement VII, dated 1389. The
report states that the cloth had been created as part of a faith-healing
scheme, "the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it."
Samples of what was claimed to be blood failed a battery of tests in 1973.
In the late 1970s, forensic microanalyst Walter McCrone, an expert in
examining the authenticity of documents and paintings, identified the "blood"
of the shroud as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint, and concluded that
the entire image was painted.
The 1988 shroud carbon dating--conducted by laboratories in Zurich,
Switzerland, Oxford, England, and the University of Arizona--yielded close
results, giving a date range of A.D.1260-1390. This range coincides with the
forger's confession in the report to Pope Clement. Claims that the carbon
dating was flawed ignore the fact that the shroud would have to be
contaminated with twice its own weight in contaminating material to push the
cloth's age back to the first century A.D.
Finally, the Turin shroud contradicts the account of Jesus' burial in the
Gospel of John. In the Greek New Testament, Jesus is said to have been
wrapped in othonia-strips of linen, not a whole linen sheet. (John 19:40 and
20:6-7). John also says that Jesus' body was buried in a large quantity of
aloes and myrrh: no trace of either spice has been found on the shroud.
"Defenders of the shroud typically start with their desired conclusion and
work backward to the evidence; science begins with the evidence and proceeds
forward to a conclusion," says Nickell. Together, the facts corroborate each
other in rejecting the claim that the shroud dates to the time of Jesus.
I Must Say You Don't Half Step .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Daniyal;1137097 wrote: I Must Say You Don't Half Step .
When i want to Danny :sneaky:
Otherwise, it can be fun playing the dumb woman at times :sneaky:
When i'm talking to an intellect, i respond accordingly.
It's bed time here so i will read up some more on this subject tomorrow. :-6:-6
When i want to Danny :sneaky:
Otherwise, it can be fun playing the dumb woman at times :sneaky:
When i'm talking to an intellect, i respond accordingly.
It's bed time here so i will read up some more on this subject tomorrow. :-6:-6
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
oscar;1137147 wrote: When i want to Danny :sneaky:
Otherwise, it can be fun playing the dumb woman at times :sneaky:
When i'm talking to an intellect, i respond accordingly.
It's bed time here so i will read up some more on this subject tomorrow. :-6:-6
I'll LQQk forward to reading it .
Nefer Ushat ~ Miss O ~
Otherwise, it can be fun playing the dumb woman at times :sneaky:
When i'm talking to an intellect, i respond accordingly.
It's bed time here so i will read up some more on this subject tomorrow. :-6:-6
I'll LQQk forward to reading it .
Nefer Ushat ~ Miss O ~
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
AOL
posted: 9 HOURS 21 MINUTES AGOcomments: 2081filed under: World News
(April 5) - The shroud of Turin, the 14-foot-long linen cloth that many people believe was placed on Jesus Christ at the time of his burial, was hidden and secretly venerated by medieval knights for more than 100 years, the Vatican announced Sunday, according to a story published by Britain's Times Online.
The Knights Templar, the religious order that existed for two centuries during the Crusades in the Middle Ages, took care of the cloth and kept it from falling into the hands of heretical groups, Vatican researchers said. The knights themselves were eventually disbanded by Pope Clement V in 1307 for alleged heresy.
The Shroud of Turin was kept hidden and secretly revered by medieval knights for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said Sunday in a report published by Britain's Times Online. The shroud, seen above in a 1979 black and white photo, is a 14-foot-long linen that many believe is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
According to Dr. Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, the shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the fourth crusade, and did not resurface again until the middle of the 14th century. And it's this time period that the Vatican now accounts for.
The shroud is now kept in the royal chapel of the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. It was last publicly exhibited in 2000, and is due to go on display again next year.
Medieval knights hid and secretly venerated The Holy Shroud of Turin for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said yesterday in an announcement that appeared to solve the mystery of the relic’s missing years.
The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.
The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.
Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century. Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Dr Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians.
However her study of the trial of the Knights Templar had brought to light a document in which Arnaut Sabbatier, a young Frenchman who entered the order in 1287, testified that as part of his initiation he was taken to “a secret place to which only the brothers of the Temple had accessâ€. There he was shown “a long linen cloth on which was impressed the figure of a man†and instructed to venerate the image by kissing its feet three times.
Dr Frale said that among other alleged offences such as sodomy, the Knights Templar had been accused of worshipping idols, in particular a “bearded figureâ€. In reality however the object they had secretly venerated was the Shroud.
They had rescued it to ensure that it did not fall into the hands of heretical groups such as the Cathars, who claimed that Christ did not have a true human body, only the appearance of a man, and could therefore not have died on the Cross and been resurrected. She said her discovery vindicated a theory first put forward by the British historian Ian Wilson in 1978.
The Knights Templar were founded at the time of the First Crusade in the eleventh century to protect Christians making the pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The Order was endorsed by the Pope, but when Acre fell in 1291 and the Crusaders lost their hold on the Holy Land their support faded, amid growing envy of their fortune in property and banking.
Rumours about the order’s corrupt and arcane secret ceremonies claimed that novices had to deny Christ three times, spit on the cross, strip naked and kiss their superior on the buttocks, navel, and lips and submit to sodomy. King Philip IV of France, who coveted the order’s wealth and owed it money, arrested its leaders and put pressure on Pope Clement V to dissolve it.
Several knights, including the Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, were burned at the stake. Legends of the Templars’ secret rituals and lost treasures have long fascinated conspiracy theorists, and figure in The Da Vinci Code, which repeated the theory that the knights were entrusted with the Holy Grail.
In 2003 Dr Frale, the Vatican’s medieval specialist, unearthed the record of the trial of the Templars, also known as the Chinon Parchment, after realising that it had been wrongly catalogued. The parchment showed that Pope Clement V had accepted the Templars were guilty of “grave sinsâ€, such as corruption and sexual immorality, but not of heresy.
Their initiation ceremony involved spitting on the Cross, but this was to brace them for having to do so if captured by Muslim forces, Dr Frale said. Last year she published for the first time the prayer the Knights Templar composed when “unjustly imprisonedâ€, in which they appealed to the Virgin Mary to persuade "our enemies†to abandon calumnies and lies and revert to truth and charity.
Radiocarbon dating tests on the Turin Shroud in 1988 indicated that it was a medieval fake. However this had been challenged on the grounds that the dated sample was taken from an area of the shroud mended after a fire in the Middle Ages and not a part of the original cloth.
After the sack of Constantinople it was next seen at Lirey in France in 1353, when it was displayed in a local church by descendants of Geoffroy de Charney, a Templar Knight burned at the stake with Jacques de Molay.
It was moved to various European cities until it was acquired by the Savoy dynasty in Turin in the sixteenth century. Holy See property since 1983, the Shroud was last publicly exhibited in 2000, and is due to go on show again next year.
The Vatican has not declared whether it is genuine or a forgery, leaving it to believers to decide. The late John Paul II said it was “an icon of the suffering of the innocent in every age.†The self proclaimed heirs of the Knights Templar have asked the Vatican to “restore the reputation†of the disgraced order and acknowledge that assets worth some £80 million were confiscated.
The Association of the Sovereign Order of the Temple of Christ, based in Spain, said that when the order was dissolved by Pope Clement V in 1307, more than 9,000 properties, farms and commercial ventures belonging to knights were seized by the Church. A British branch also claiming descent from the Knights Templar and based in Hertfordshire has called for a papal apology for the persecution of the order.
AOL NEW
posted: 9 HOURS 21 MINUTES AGOcomments: 2081filed under: World News
(April 5) - The shroud of Turin, the 14-foot-long linen cloth that many people believe was placed on Jesus Christ at the time of his burial, was hidden and secretly venerated by medieval knights for more than 100 years, the Vatican announced Sunday, according to a story published by Britain's Times Online.
The Knights Templar, the religious order that existed for two centuries during the Crusades in the Middle Ages, took care of the cloth and kept it from falling into the hands of heretical groups, Vatican researchers said. The knights themselves were eventually disbanded by Pope Clement V in 1307 for alleged heresy.
The Shroud of Turin was kept hidden and secretly revered by medieval knights for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said Sunday in a report published by Britain's Times Online. The shroud, seen above in a 1979 black and white photo, is a 14-foot-long linen that many believe is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.
According to Dr. Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, the shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the fourth crusade, and did not resurface again until the middle of the 14th century. And it's this time period that the Vatican now accounts for.
The shroud is now kept in the royal chapel of the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. It was last publicly exhibited in 2000, and is due to go on display again next year.
Medieval knights hid and secretly venerated The Holy Shroud of Turin for more than 100 years after the Crusades, the Vatican said yesterday in an announcement that appeared to solve the mystery of the relic’s missing years.
The Knights Templar, an order which was suppressed and disbanded for alleged heresy, took care of the linen cloth, which bears the image of a man with a beard, long hair and the wounds of crucifixion, according to Vatican researchers.
The Shroud, which is kept in the royal chapel of Turin Cathedral, has long been revered as the shroud in which Jesus was buried, although the image only appeared clearly in 1898 when a photographer developed a negative.
Barbara Frale, a researcher in the Vatican Secret Archives, said the Shroud had disappeared in the sack of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and did not surface again until the middle of the fourteenth century. Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Dr Frale said its fate in those years had always puzzled historians.
However her study of the trial of the Knights Templar had brought to light a document in which Arnaut Sabbatier, a young Frenchman who entered the order in 1287, testified that as part of his initiation he was taken to “a secret place to which only the brothers of the Temple had accessâ€. There he was shown “a long linen cloth on which was impressed the figure of a man†and instructed to venerate the image by kissing its feet three times.
Dr Frale said that among other alleged offences such as sodomy, the Knights Templar had been accused of worshipping idols, in particular a “bearded figureâ€. In reality however the object they had secretly venerated was the Shroud.
They had rescued it to ensure that it did not fall into the hands of heretical groups such as the Cathars, who claimed that Christ did not have a true human body, only the appearance of a man, and could therefore not have died on the Cross and been resurrected. She said her discovery vindicated a theory first put forward by the British historian Ian Wilson in 1978.
The Knights Templar were founded at the time of the First Crusade in the eleventh century to protect Christians making the pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The Order was endorsed by the Pope, but when Acre fell in 1291 and the Crusaders lost their hold on the Holy Land their support faded, amid growing envy of their fortune in property and banking.
Rumours about the order’s corrupt and arcane secret ceremonies claimed that novices had to deny Christ three times, spit on the cross, strip naked and kiss their superior on the buttocks, navel, and lips and submit to sodomy. King Philip IV of France, who coveted the order’s wealth and owed it money, arrested its leaders and put pressure on Pope Clement V to dissolve it.
Several knights, including the Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, were burned at the stake. Legends of the Templars’ secret rituals and lost treasures have long fascinated conspiracy theorists, and figure in The Da Vinci Code, which repeated the theory that the knights were entrusted with the Holy Grail.
In 2003 Dr Frale, the Vatican’s medieval specialist, unearthed the record of the trial of the Templars, also known as the Chinon Parchment, after realising that it had been wrongly catalogued. The parchment showed that Pope Clement V had accepted the Templars were guilty of “grave sinsâ€, such as corruption and sexual immorality, but not of heresy.
Their initiation ceremony involved spitting on the Cross, but this was to brace them for having to do so if captured by Muslim forces, Dr Frale said. Last year she published for the first time the prayer the Knights Templar composed when “unjustly imprisonedâ€, in which they appealed to the Virgin Mary to persuade "our enemies†to abandon calumnies and lies and revert to truth and charity.
Radiocarbon dating tests on the Turin Shroud in 1988 indicated that it was a medieval fake. However this had been challenged on the grounds that the dated sample was taken from an area of the shroud mended after a fire in the Middle Ages and not a part of the original cloth.
After the sack of Constantinople it was next seen at Lirey in France in 1353, when it was displayed in a local church by descendants of Geoffroy de Charney, a Templar Knight burned at the stake with Jacques de Molay.
It was moved to various European cities until it was acquired by the Savoy dynasty in Turin in the sixteenth century. Holy See property since 1983, the Shroud was last publicly exhibited in 2000, and is due to go on show again next year.
The Vatican has not declared whether it is genuine or a forgery, leaving it to believers to decide. The late John Paul II said it was “an icon of the suffering of the innocent in every age.†The self proclaimed heirs of the Knights Templar have asked the Vatican to “restore the reputation†of the disgraced order and acknowledge that assets worth some £80 million were confiscated.
The Association of the Sovereign Order of the Temple of Christ, based in Spain, said that when the order was dissolved by Pope Clement V in 1307, more than 9,000 properties, farms and commercial ventures belonging to knights were seized by the Church. A British branch also claiming descent from the Knights Templar and based in Hertfordshire has called for a papal apology for the persecution of the order.
AOL NEW
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Daniyal;1170472 wrote:
Rumours about the order’s corrupt and arcane secret ceremonies claimed that novices had to deny Christ three times, spit on the cross, strip naked and kiss their superior on the buttocks, navel, and lips and submit to sodomy. King Philip IV of France, who coveted the order’s wealth and owed it money, arrested its leaders and put pressure on Pope Clement V to dissolve it.
The Knights Templar
;);)
Rumours about the order’s corrupt and arcane secret ceremonies claimed that novices had to deny Christ three times, spit on the cross, strip naked and kiss their superior on the buttocks, navel, and lips and submit to sodomy. King Philip IV of France, who coveted the order’s wealth and owed it money, arrested its leaders and put pressure on Pope Clement V to dissolve it.
The Knights Templar
;);)At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
i didn't read any of the previous posts, but it was just proven that the shroud could not be from jesus's era. i don't remember the exact date, but it is much more recent.
Open Source/Open Mind
-
Mark Aspam
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Tuxr99;1178033 wrote: i didn't read any of the previous posts, but it was just proven that the shroud could not be from jesus's era. i don't remember the exact date, but it is much more recent.I believe that you are correct, still, there are some people who simply will not take NO for an answer.
My question, though, as a newcomer to these forums (I've been a member for quite a while but haven't posted much), is why are so many people BANNED?
What are the limits on opinions which differ from those of the moderators?
My question, though, as a newcomer to these forums (I've been a member for quite a while but haven't posted much), is why are so many people BANNED?
What are the limits on opinions which differ from those of the moderators?
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Attached files
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The dogs philosophy on life. If you cant eat it, hump it or fight it,........ Pee on it and walk away!!
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304348 wrote: I believe that you are correct, still, there are some people who simply will not take NO for an answer.
My question, though, as a newcomer to these forums (I've been a member for quite a while but haven't posted much), is why are so many people BANNED?
What are the limits on opinions which differ from those of the moderators?
The vast majority of those with Banned under their names were spammers - those fly by posters that thought the Garden a suitable place to paste their advertisements.
As to the shroud. The carbon dating evidence that placed the shouud from the time of DaVinci has been discredited. It has been shown that the sample used was taken from an area of the cloth that had a later interwoven repair which would skew the data.
My question, though, as a newcomer to these forums (I've been a member for quite a while but haven't posted much), is why are so many people BANNED?
What are the limits on opinions which differ from those of the moderators?
The vast majority of those with Banned under their names were spammers - those fly by posters that thought the Garden a suitable place to paste their advertisements.
As to the shroud. The carbon dating evidence that placed the shouud from the time of DaVinci has been discredited. It has been shown that the sample used was taken from an area of the cloth that had a later interwoven repair which would skew the data.
-
Mark Aspam
- Posts: 668
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:00 am
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Bryn Mawr;1304367 wrote: The vast majority of those with Banned under their names were spammers - those fly by posters that thought the Garden a suitable place to paste their advertisements.
As to the shroud. The carbon dating evidence that placed the shouud from the time of DaVinci has been discredited. It has been shown that the sample used was taken from an area of the cloth that had a later interwoven repair which would skew the data.Well, regarding the posters to this thread, poster oscar is credited (or I guess now we should say debitted) with 16,607 posts and poster Daniyal with 1,410. That's a lot of advertising before being noticed.
I do admit that the latter might be charged with criminal verbosity.
But regarding the shroud itself, who did the discrediting? Those who conducted the tests or those supporting the shroud's authenticity?
As to the shroud. The carbon dating evidence that placed the shouud from the time of DaVinci has been discredited. It has been shown that the sample used was taken from an area of the cloth that had a later interwoven repair which would skew the data.Well, regarding the posters to this thread, poster oscar is credited (or I guess now we should say debitted) with 16,607 posts and poster Daniyal with 1,410. That's a lot of advertising before being noticed.
I do admit that the latter might be charged with criminal verbosity.
But regarding the shroud itself, who did the discrediting? Those who conducted the tests or those supporting the shroud's authenticity?
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
I've always thought it to be odd that the image on the shroud is the same as the Hollywood depiction of the Jesus Christ we've been led to believe was someone special.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Mark Aspam
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Ahso!;1304387 wrote: I've always thought it to be odd that the image on the shroud is the same as the Hollywood depiction of the Jesus Christ we've been led to believe was someone special.Well, to me as a Christian, the important thing is following Christ's teachings and the example of His life.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304392 wrote: Well, to me as a Christian, the important thing is following Christ's teachings and the example of His life.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.I take it you consider the contents of the Christian Bible to be historical fact?
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.I take it you consider the contents of the Christian Bible to be historical fact?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
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Mark Aspam
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Ahso!;1304395 wrote: I take it you consider the contents of the Christian Bible to be historical fact?Why do you take that? And what is "the Christian Bible"? The New Testament or both OT and NT?
If you'd like to discuss the Bible it would be better to start a new thread on a different venue, unless you consider the Bible a conspiracy.
If you'd like to discuss the Bible it would be better to start a new thread on a different venue, unless you consider the Bible a conspiracy.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304379 wrote: Well, regarding the posters to this thread, poster oscar is credited (or I guess now we should say debitted) with 16,607 posts and poster Daniyal with 1,410. That's a lot of advertising before being noticed.
I do admit that the latter might be charged with criminal verbosity.
But regarding the shroud itself, who did the discrediting? Those who conducted the tests or those supporting the shroud's authenticity?
I did say the vast majority, not all
Does it matter who does the discrediting if they have a logical case backed up by the data?
As if happens, whilst the evidence was unearthed by the pro side, one of the original team that did the carbon dating has gone on record accepting the case against and calling for a fresh test using material checked for authenticity.
I do admit that the latter might be charged with criminal verbosity.
But regarding the shroud itself, who did the discrediting? Those who conducted the tests or those supporting the shroud's authenticity?
I did say the vast majority, not all
Does it matter who does the discrediting if they have a logical case backed up by the data?
As if happens, whilst the evidence was unearthed by the pro side, one of the original team that did the carbon dating has gone on record accepting the case against and calling for a fresh test using material checked for authenticity.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Ahso!;1304387 wrote: I've always thought it to be odd that the image on the shroud is the same as the Hollywood depiction of the Jesus Christ we've been led to believe was someone special.
Why odd? Since the fourteenth century whenever an artist has needed to depict Jesus the image was based on the shroud. It has become the accepted image and Hollywood just continued the trend.
Why odd? Since the fourteenth century whenever an artist has needed to depict Jesus the image was based on the shroud. It has become the accepted image and Hollywood just continued the trend.
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fuzzywuzzy
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
I was brought up strict Roman Catholic and this is not news to me ....we always knew it wasn't what Christ was wrapped in..I thought they proved Davinci did it? *shrugs*.
so I'm forty and have known this since childhood...........ummm like duh!!!
so where is the revelation here?
so I'm forty and have known this since childhood...........ummm like duh!!!
so where is the revelation here?
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304398 wrote: Why do you take that? And what is "the Christian Bible"? The New Testament or both OT and NT?
If you'd like to discuss the Bible it would be better to start a new thread on a different venue, unless you consider the Bible a conspiracy.Well, events such as the publicity surrounding the discovery of the shroud are an attempt to authenticate the historical accuracy of the Christian Bible, are they not?
I don't see how anyone could differentiate between the accuracy of the New and Old Testaments though. Jesus can't be considered the Christ without recognition of the prophesy of his coming foretold in the OT, could he?
But your point is taken. Just seizing on an opportunity to get to know you a bit, thats all. Peace!:)
If you'd like to discuss the Bible it would be better to start a new thread on a different venue, unless you consider the Bible a conspiracy.Well, events such as the publicity surrounding the discovery of the shroud are an attempt to authenticate the historical accuracy of the Christian Bible, are they not?
I don't see how anyone could differentiate between the accuracy of the New and Old Testaments though. Jesus can't be considered the Christ without recognition of the prophesy of his coming foretold in the OT, could he?
But your point is taken. Just seizing on an opportunity to get to know you a bit, thats all. Peace!:)
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
fuzzywuzzy
- Posts: 6596
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304392 wrote: Well, to me as a Christian, the important thing is following Christ's teachings and the example of His life.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.
this is what always gets me about these images . wasn't his face washed during the crucifixion walk and that is the stain that is the true stain of his blood? it's in the bible, the shroud is not. I can' t see josepheus keeping it considering he was a devout jew the the shroud would have been unclean.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.
this is what always gets me about these images . wasn't his face washed during the crucifixion walk and that is the stain that is the true stain of his blood? it's in the bible, the shroud is not. I can' t see josepheus keeping it considering he was a devout jew the the shroud would have been unclean.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Bryn Mawr;1304403 wrote: Why odd? Since the fourteenth century whenever an artist has needed to depict Jesus the image was based on the shroud. It has become the accepted image and Hollywood just continued the trend.That was my point actually, Bryn. The fact is that no one knows what this example of a person looked like, so even if the shroud was dated to the period of whenever it is this Jesus actually lived, believing it was 'him' would be speculation at best, right?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,â€
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
Voltaire
I have only one thing to do and that's
Be the wave that I am and then
Sink back into the ocean
Fiona Apple
-
fuzzywuzzy
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- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
If you were brought up a Catholic, as a child, you were taught about the power of mysteries.
One mystery that I used to always find perplexing was how the face of Jesus Christ was superimposed on the Turin Shroud, a burial cloth that measures 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches.
Somehow, the face looked a little too much like the Jesus in all the religious pictures. It all seemed a little too perfect. And, as one grew up, one began to learn that nothing was quite that perfect. Not even priests.
Now an Italian scientist and his team claim to have debunked this mystery.
According to Reuters, an organic chemist from the University of Pavia called Luigi Garlaschelli has created a shroud replica and plans to reveal the results of his work at a conference on the paranormal (and, who knows, of the paranormal) later this week.
An artistic depiction of the Shroud.
(Credit: CC Buridan/Flickr)
In order not to cheat, Garlaschelli says he availed himself only of materials that were accessible in the Middle Ages, the period from which carbon dating by various laboratories suggested the shroud emanates.
He and his team used a pigment that contained a little skeptical acid to do the basic rubbing on a volunteer wearing a Jesus mask.
Then, in a process that seems to eerily resemble the production of faded clothing by teenagers, they heated the shroud in an oven and washed it. Finally, they added a few holes and stains for additional authenticity.
It all sounds suspiciously easy. Indeed, it all sounds as if someone wants to create a little anti-Catholic publicity. (The Church doesn't even claim that the Turin Shroud is genuine.) As with so much research these days, it is good to look to the source of funding to see who might be so very keen to bankroll a debunking.
Garlaschelli admits that he did take money from an Italian association of atheists and agnostics. However, he has offered his services to the Church too. "Money has no odor," was his somewhat-romantic quote to Reuters.
But something about this experiment does suggest a peculiar smell. The University of Pavia is one of the oldest in Europe. Don't the professors have something a little more interesting to do than trying to upset my mum and dad?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10368420-71.html
One mystery that I used to always find perplexing was how the face of Jesus Christ was superimposed on the Turin Shroud, a burial cloth that measures 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches.
Somehow, the face looked a little too much like the Jesus in all the religious pictures. It all seemed a little too perfect. And, as one grew up, one began to learn that nothing was quite that perfect. Not even priests.
Now an Italian scientist and his team claim to have debunked this mystery.
According to Reuters, an organic chemist from the University of Pavia called Luigi Garlaschelli has created a shroud replica and plans to reveal the results of his work at a conference on the paranormal (and, who knows, of the paranormal) later this week.
An artistic depiction of the Shroud.
(Credit: CC Buridan/Flickr)
In order not to cheat, Garlaschelli says he availed himself only of materials that were accessible in the Middle Ages, the period from which carbon dating by various laboratories suggested the shroud emanates.
He and his team used a pigment that contained a little skeptical acid to do the basic rubbing on a volunteer wearing a Jesus mask.
Then, in a process that seems to eerily resemble the production of faded clothing by teenagers, they heated the shroud in an oven and washed it. Finally, they added a few holes and stains for additional authenticity.
It all sounds suspiciously easy. Indeed, it all sounds as if someone wants to create a little anti-Catholic publicity. (The Church doesn't even claim that the Turin Shroud is genuine.) As with so much research these days, it is good to look to the source of funding to see who might be so very keen to bankroll a debunking.
Garlaschelli admits that he did take money from an Italian association of atheists and agnostics. However, he has offered his services to the Church too. "Money has no odor," was his somewhat-romantic quote to Reuters.
But something about this experiment does suggest a peculiar smell. The University of Pavia is one of the oldest in Europe. Don't the professors have something a little more interesting to do than trying to upset my mum and dad?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10368420-71.html
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fuzzywuzzy
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
So, are you going to prove to everyone that the shroud is a fake even though the catholic church never said it was real? Nope ...try going to mass at the Vatican...you're not going to convince those loonies of anything.....trust me i've never heard so many cheers during a serman.scary stuff.
I have no idea why anyone is even debating this topic ...it's null and void.
I have no idea why anyone is even debating this topic ...it's null and void.
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Mark Aspam
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Bryn Mawr;1304400 wrote: I did say the vast majority, not all
Does it matter who does the discrediting if they have a logical case backed up by the data?
As if happens, whilst the evidence was unearthed by the pro side, one of the original team that did the carbon dating has gone on record accepting the case against and calling for a fresh test using material checked for authenticity.Seems to me the best solution would be a 'double-blind' study.
Let those who believe in the cloth's authenticity and those who doubt it each choose a testing organization that they believe to be dependable and totally impartial.
Compare the results and, if they agree, that should pretty much settle it.
Does it matter who does the discrediting if they have a logical case backed up by the data?
As if happens, whilst the evidence was unearthed by the pro side, one of the original team that did the carbon dating has gone on record accepting the case against and calling for a fresh test using material checked for authenticity.Seems to me the best solution would be a 'double-blind' study.
Let those who believe in the cloth's authenticity and those who doubt it each choose a testing organization that they believe to be dependable and totally impartial.
Compare the results and, if they agree, that should pretty much settle it.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Ahso!;1304407 wrote: That was my point actually, Bryn. The fact is that no one knows what this example of a person looked like, so even if the shroud was dated to the period of whenever it is this Jesus actually lived, believing it was 'him' would be speculation at best, right?
Certainly it would, no proof so it can only be speculation.
However, given the nature of the shroud, if it can be shown to be of the correct period and to have originated in the correct locale, it would be a reasonable working assumption until something better came along.
Certainly it would, no proof so it can only be speculation.
However, given the nature of the shroud, if it can be shown to be of the correct period and to have originated in the correct locale, it would be a reasonable working assumption until something better came along.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304415 wrote: Seems to me the best solution would be a 'double-blind' study.
Let those who believe in the cloth's authenticity and those who doubt it each choose a testing organization that they believe to be dependable and totally impartial.
Compare the results and, if they agree, that should pretty much settle it.
First, get them to agree a test and a set of results that both sides would accept as proof positive - then get them to agree a testing body they'd both trust :wah:
Getting each to choose their own "impartial" testing body is a recipe for a standoff, each party must accept the other party's testing body.
Let those who believe in the cloth's authenticity and those who doubt it each choose a testing organization that they believe to be dependable and totally impartial.
Compare the results and, if they agree, that should pretty much settle it.
First, get them to agree a test and a set of results that both sides would accept as proof positive - then get them to agree a testing body they'd both trust :wah:
Getting each to choose their own "impartial" testing body is a recipe for a standoff, each party must accept the other party's testing body.
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Mark Aspam
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Bryn Mawr;1304420 wrote: First, get them to agree a test and a set of results that both sides would accept as proof positive - then get them to agree a testing body they'd both trust :wah:
Getting each to choose their own "impartial" testing body is a recipe for a standoff, each party must accept the other party's testing body.Excellent, too bad we're not in charge.
Wanna bet that if that happened, and if were proven of medieval origin, the pro side would still insist that it's genuine?
Getting each to choose their own "impartial" testing body is a recipe for a standoff, each party must accept the other party's testing body.Excellent, too bad we're not in charge.
Wanna bet that if that happened, and if were proven of medieval origin, the pro side would still insist that it's genuine?
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304423 wrote: Excellent, too bad we're not in charge.
Wanna bet that if that happened, and if were proven of medieval origin, the pro side would still insist that it's genuine?
No - because I don't believe they'd agree terms in the first place.
Wanna bet that if that happened, and if were proven of medieval origin, the pro side would still insist that it's genuine?
No - because I don't believe they'd agree terms in the first place.
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Mark Aspam
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The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Ahso!;1304405 wrote: 1. Well, events such as the publicity surrounding the discovery of the shroud are an attempt to authenticate the historical accuracy of the Christian Bible, are they not?
2. I don't see how anyone could differentiate between the accuracy of the New and Old Testaments though. Jesus can't be considered the Christ without recognition of the prophesy of his coming foretold in the OT, could he?
3. But your point is taken. Just seizing on an opportunity to get to know you a bit, thats all. Peace!:)1. I'm not sure that's true. Most Christians simply assume the accuracy of the NT as a given. Even if the shroud were authenticated with regard to time and place, there would be nothing to prove that it was the burial cloth of Christ, that would still be a matter of faith.
2. Oh, they are very different. The NT, with the exception of Revelation, is considered authentic history by Christians insofar as Jesus really lived and did the things attributed to Him, despite some contradictions, and that the letters written to the early Christians are also authentic, again with some possible exceptions.
The OT is divided into the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Writings are literature, not history. Most modern scholars, Jewish and Christian alike, consider most or all of Genesis to be legendary. So there is far more diversity here than in the NT.
3. Well, thank you for taking that opportunity. Still, if you wish to extend the exchange, it would be better to move it to a more appropriate forum.
2. I don't see how anyone could differentiate between the accuracy of the New and Old Testaments though. Jesus can't be considered the Christ without recognition of the prophesy of his coming foretold in the OT, could he?
3. But your point is taken. Just seizing on an opportunity to get to know you a bit, thats all. Peace!:)1. I'm not sure that's true. Most Christians simply assume the accuracy of the NT as a given. Even if the shroud were authenticated with regard to time and place, there would be nothing to prove that it was the burial cloth of Christ, that would still be a matter of faith.
2. Oh, they are very different. The NT, with the exception of Revelation, is considered authentic history by Christians insofar as Jesus really lived and did the things attributed to Him, despite some contradictions, and that the letters written to the early Christians are also authentic, again with some possible exceptions.
The OT is divided into the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Writings are literature, not history. Most modern scholars, Jewish and Christian alike, consider most or all of Genesis to be legendary. So there is far more diversity here than in the NT.
3. Well, thank you for taking that opportunity. Still, if you wish to extend the exchange, it would be better to move it to a more appropriate forum.
The Holy Shroud '' Fact Or Fiction ? ''
Mark Aspam;1304392 wrote: Well, to me as a Christian, the important thing is following Christ's teachings and the example of His life.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.
In my opinion, a bit of cloth is just a bit of cloth. It's not magic. If it were provable that it was actually the shroud in which the body of Jesus was laid in the grave, it would, for me, be still just a bit of cloth, perhaps a curiosity but nothing more than that. If you are a Christian and believe God set in motion everything there is, a bit of cloth is miraculous in itself, as fibres taken from plants that somehow grew out of the soil and were woven into something useful and probably beautiful by the hands of humans who were intelligent and resourceful.
Whether He left His image on a piece of cloth is of little concern.
As I recall, it was pretty much agreed by both sides that the testing operation was impartial, that those conducting the tests had no ax to grind in one direction or the other.
Once the test results were known, those supporting the cloth's authenticity pretty much ignored them.
Also, it's often claimed that the image is a fake. I would be more inclined to consider it a work of art. I don't know of any evidence that the creator of the image intended it as anything else.
Dating it reliably should be quite easy using modern technology. Will ANY amount of evidence convince the supporters that it's of relatively recent origin. Probably not.
In my opinion, a bit of cloth is just a bit of cloth. It's not magic. If it were provable that it was actually the shroud in which the body of Jesus was laid in the grave, it would, for me, be still just a bit of cloth, perhaps a curiosity but nothing more than that. If you are a Christian and believe God set in motion everything there is, a bit of cloth is miraculous in itself, as fibres taken from plants that somehow grew out of the soil and were woven into something useful and probably beautiful by the hands of humans who were intelligent and resourceful.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"