DrJ, Spot, anybody else that claims 9/11 was an inside job:
The conversation about 9/11 is getting so convoluted I thought this part was worth a separate thread.
How long did preparations take the US gov't to pull off this complex hoax? Was the first bombing of the WTC just a practice run?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
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Accountable
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How long did 9/11 preparations take?
From getting into office, at a guess. That's when they got authority to command. How long's that? Eight months? Deciding to go that route can have gone back years but issuing the orders, eight months.
There may have been talk about all this before the election though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_G ... eshadowing was broadcast in March 2001. I hate coincidence. I think it's an echo of what was being planned.Foreshadowing the September 11, 2001 attacks, the plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of the series depicts a secret U.S. government agency plotting to crash a Boeing 727 headed for Boston into the World Trade Center via remote control for the purpose of increasing the military defense budget and blaming the attack on foreign "tin-pot dictators" who are "begging to be smart-bombed."
There may have been talk about all this before the election though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_G ... eshadowing was broadcast in March 2001. I hate coincidence. I think it's an echo of what was being planned.Foreshadowing the September 11, 2001 attacks, the plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of the series depicts a secret U.S. government agency plotting to crash a Boeing 727 headed for Boston into the World Trade Center via remote control for the purpose of increasing the military defense budget and blaming the attack on foreign "tin-pot dictators" who are "begging to be smart-bombed."
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;928084 wrote: From getting into office, at a guess. That's when they got authority to command. How long's that? Eight months? Deciding to go that route can have gone back years but issuing the orders, eight months.
There may have been talk about all this before the election though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_G ... eshadowing was broadcast in March 2001. I hate coincidence. I think it's an echo of what was being planned.
Foreshadowing the September 11, 2001 attacks, the plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of the series depicts a secret U.S. government agency plotting to crash a Boeing 727 headed for Boston into the World Trade Center via remote control for the purpose of increasing the military defense budget and blaming the attack on foreign "tin-pot dictators" who are "begging to be smart-bombed."
spot;927489 wrote: GW Bush is a singularly trivial little front man, I doubt whether he's made a single decision of state since he entered the White House for his first term.
This White House Administration and PNAC are equivalent terms, they're the same people. Just look at the list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac#Assoc ... nistration
I'm quite sure they didn't plan or execute it, these things are left to experts. Someone in the White House Administration undoubtedly liaised with whoever planned whatever was planned because the President wasn't protected in that schoolroom when the second tower was hit - that's pre-knowledge on the part of his security team. The disabling of the US interception of hijacked aircraft on 9/11 is one essential planned aspect, leaving the air defences alone would have resulted in no buildings being reached.
I have no idea what the plan entailed beyond that. One aspect involved the pretended cell phone calls which were simply shoddy plotting since they can't have happened. What does that imply about the actual plot? I've no idea, it merely tells me someone was monkeying with phone calls behind the scenes and it wasn't any tinpot Saudi extremist.
The plot was to enact A 'catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor'. That's what these politicians commissioned, it's what they got. It involved purposely destroying the WTC complex and attacking Washington to ratchet up the outrage. That's a new Pearl Harbor, plain and simple, right down to the body count, and it was planned in the USA to unleash the country's military on the Middle East and to enable the passage of otherwise politically impossible civil surveillance legislation at home.
To slightly adjust your "because it is impossible to send/recivie cell transmissions on flying aircraft", I've claimed only "because it is impossible to send/receive cell voice calls on aircraft flying higher than a mile above the ground". Roughly. At 30,000 it's a dead cert though. At a mile and a half, maybe you might get a fleeting signal but you'd not get a connection. You're passing what few masts are down there one a minute and the hand-over routines in the masts simply don't allow for 400 mile an hour connections. And, crucially, the masts log all the activity and there's no cellphone provider logs in any of the prosecution's case against the hijackers.
If Bush is so trivial, why do you think they had to wait until he was in office to act? You don't see a connection with the first attack?
There may have been talk about all this before the election though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_G ... eshadowing was broadcast in March 2001. I hate coincidence. I think it's an echo of what was being planned.
Foreshadowing the September 11, 2001 attacks, the plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of the series depicts a secret U.S. government agency plotting to crash a Boeing 727 headed for Boston into the World Trade Center via remote control for the purpose of increasing the military defense budget and blaming the attack on foreign "tin-pot dictators" who are "begging to be smart-bombed."
spot;927489 wrote: GW Bush is a singularly trivial little front man, I doubt whether he's made a single decision of state since he entered the White House for his first term.
This White House Administration and PNAC are equivalent terms, they're the same people. Just look at the list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac#Assoc ... nistration
I'm quite sure they didn't plan or execute it, these things are left to experts. Someone in the White House Administration undoubtedly liaised with whoever planned whatever was planned because the President wasn't protected in that schoolroom when the second tower was hit - that's pre-knowledge on the part of his security team. The disabling of the US interception of hijacked aircraft on 9/11 is one essential planned aspect, leaving the air defences alone would have resulted in no buildings being reached.
I have no idea what the plan entailed beyond that. One aspect involved the pretended cell phone calls which were simply shoddy plotting since they can't have happened. What does that imply about the actual plot? I've no idea, it merely tells me someone was monkeying with phone calls behind the scenes and it wasn't any tinpot Saudi extremist.
The plot was to enact A 'catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor'. That's what these politicians commissioned, it's what they got. It involved purposely destroying the WTC complex and attacking Washington to ratchet up the outrage. That's a new Pearl Harbor, plain and simple, right down to the body count, and it was planned in the USA to unleash the country's military on the Middle East and to enable the passage of otherwise politically impossible civil surveillance legislation at home.
To slightly adjust your "because it is impossible to send/recivie cell transmissions on flying aircraft", I've claimed only "because it is impossible to send/receive cell voice calls on aircraft flying higher than a mile above the ground". Roughly. At 30,000 it's a dead cert though. At a mile and a half, maybe you might get a fleeting signal but you'd not get a connection. You're passing what few masts are down there one a minute and the hand-over routines in the masts simply don't allow for 400 mile an hour connections. And, crucially, the masts log all the activity and there's no cellphone provider logs in any of the prosecution's case against the hijackers.
If Bush is so trivial, why do you think they had to wait until he was in office to act? You don't see a connection with the first attack?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Jester, the issue of the cell phone calls has to be addressed adequately. Without those I'm more than content to give your Administration all the benefit of the doubt in the world. With it, there's no alternative at all, they're guilty.
As for the March 2001 TV show, all I've said is that I dislike coincidences. On the other hand, If there was an operation in progress I'm not at all surprised the details match so well. There are several possible reasons, none of them coincidental. I hate coincidences, seriously, especially when they're stacked up that deep.
Acc, no US intelligence agency is going to accept orders from a private group which is all PNAC was until the election of 2000 gave them the White House. What these covert people need is immunity and the White House can provide it. PNAC on its own certainly couldn't. What they got was their "catastrophic catalyzing event", bang on cue, exactly as described in their September 2000 paper. It would be hard to describe a closer match.
As for the March 2001 TV show, all I've said is that I dislike coincidences. On the other hand, If there was an operation in progress I'm not at all surprised the details match so well. There are several possible reasons, none of them coincidental. I hate coincidences, seriously, especially when they're stacked up that deep.
Acc, no US intelligence agency is going to accept orders from a private group which is all PNAC was until the election of 2000 gave them the White House. What these covert people need is immunity and the White House can provide it. PNAC on its own certainly couldn't. What they got was their "catastrophic catalyzing event", bang on cue, exactly as described in their September 2000 paper. It would be hard to describe a closer match.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;928537 wrote: Jester, the issue of the cell phone calls has to be addressed adequately. Without those I'm more than content to give your Administration all the benefit of the doubt in the world. With it, there's no alternative at all, they're guilty.
As for the March 2001 TV show, all I've said is that I dislike coincidences. On the other hand, If there was an operation in progress I'm not at all surprised the details match so well. There are several possible reasons, none of them coincidental. I hate coincidences, seriously, especially when they're stacked up that deep.
Acc, no US intelligence agency is going to accept orders from a private group which is all PNAC was until the election of 2000 gave them the White House. What these covert people need is immunity and the White House can provide it. PNAC on its own certainly couldn't. What they got was their "catastrophic catalyzing event", bang on cue, exactly as described in their September 2000 paper. It would be hard to describe a closer match.
And the first WTC attack?
As for the March 2001 TV show, all I've said is that I dislike coincidences. On the other hand, If there was an operation in progress I'm not at all surprised the details match so well. There are several possible reasons, none of them coincidental. I hate coincidences, seriously, especially when they're stacked up that deep.
Acc, no US intelligence agency is going to accept orders from a private group which is all PNAC was until the election of 2000 gave them the White House. What these covert people need is immunity and the White House can provide it. PNAC on its own certainly couldn't. What they got was their "catastrophic catalyzing event", bang on cue, exactly as described in their September 2000 paper. It would be hard to describe a closer match.
And the first WTC attack?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;928596 wrote: And the first WTC attack?
Wasn't that entirely down to a bunch of extremist Arabs centred around Omar Abdel-Rahman? I'd always thought it was anyhow. I don't see the slightest link between that and 9/11. There was a bank transfer of $660 which linked Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to one of the people involved but that doesn't imply any knowledge on his part as far as the 1993 attack goes.
Wasn't that entirely down to a bunch of extremist Arabs centred around Omar Abdel-Rahman? I'd always thought it was anyhow. I don't see the slightest link between that and 9/11. There was a bank transfer of $660 which linked Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to one of the people involved but that doesn't imply any knowledge on his part as far as the 1993 attack goes.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;928632 wrote: Wasn't that entirely down to a bunch of extremist Arabs centred around Omar Abdel-Rahman? I'd always thought it was anyhow. I don't see the slightest link between that and 9/11. There was a bank transfer of $660 which linked Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to one of the people involved but that doesn't imply any knowledge on his part as far as the 1993 attack goes.
Well hell, I thought 9/11 was entirely down to a bunch of extremist Arabs, but you've found this whole world of conspirators. The link is the WTC. The link is USA. Since when do you need a link? Check the web; I'm sure somebody's drawn one.
Well hell, I thought 9/11 was entirely down to a bunch of extremist Arabs, but you've found this whole world of conspirators. The link is the WTC. The link is USA. Since when do you need a link? Check the web; I'm sure somebody's drawn one.
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;928700 wrote: Well hell, I thought 9/11 was entirely down to a bunch of extremist Arabs, but you've found this whole world of conspirators. The link is the WTC. The link is USA. Since when do you need a link? Check the web; I'm sure somebody's drawn one.
The link's definitely the WTC, yes. I'm sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wanted to bring it down in 2001 because of the failed attempt in 1993, the motivation seems clear. I'm sure he had his twenty suicide hijackers infiltrate the US in order to pull off the hijackings and crash the planes into the WTC, that the Washington targets were his as well. I'm sure there's a US agency which tracked their entire existence from start to finish and knew exactly what they were up to. The US agency must have been fully aware - who better - that the plan would fail because of the standard routine never-failed-yet air interception procedure. It had the authority to curb any FBI investigator who went anywhere near the twenty Al Qaeda men in the US.
So, to a greater or lesser extent - and I think the claims of cell phone calls from 30,000 feet force it to have been greater - the US agency set the conditions for the attack to succeed. The "catastrophic catalyzing event" required by PNAC comes to pass, where left to itself it would have been a guaranteed failure.
The withdrawal of air cover on 9/11 is one smoking gun. The cell phone calls is another. The first might be explicable or excuses might be invented to cover it. The cell phone calls aren't.
The link's definitely the WTC, yes. I'm sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wanted to bring it down in 2001 because of the failed attempt in 1993, the motivation seems clear. I'm sure he had his twenty suicide hijackers infiltrate the US in order to pull off the hijackings and crash the planes into the WTC, that the Washington targets were his as well. I'm sure there's a US agency which tracked their entire existence from start to finish and knew exactly what they were up to. The US agency must have been fully aware - who better - that the plan would fail because of the standard routine never-failed-yet air interception procedure. It had the authority to curb any FBI investigator who went anywhere near the twenty Al Qaeda men in the US.
So, to a greater or lesser extent - and I think the claims of cell phone calls from 30,000 feet force it to have been greater - the US agency set the conditions for the attack to succeed. The "catastrophic catalyzing event" required by PNAC comes to pass, where left to itself it would have been a guaranteed failure.
The withdrawal of air cover on 9/11 is one smoking gun. The cell phone calls is another. The first might be explicable or excuses might be invented to cover it. The cell phone calls aren't.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;928761 wrote: The link's definitely the WTC, yes. I'm sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wanted to bring it down in 2001 because of the failed attempt in 1993, the motivation seems clear. I'm sure he had his twenty suicide hijackers infiltrate the US in order to pull off the hijackings and crash the planes into the WTC, that the Washington targets were his as well. I'm sure there's a US agency which tracked their entire existence from start to finish and knew exactly what they were up to. The US agency must have been fully aware - who better - that the plan would fail because of the standard routine never-failed-yet air interception procedure. It had the authority to curb any FBI investigator who went anywhere near the twenty Al Qaeda men in the US.
So, to a greater or lesser extent - and I think the claims of cell phone calls from 30,000 feet force it to have been greater - the US agency set the conditions for the attack to succeed. The "catastrophic catalyzing event" required by PNAC comes to pass, where left to itself it would have been a guaranteed failure.
The withdrawal of air cover on 9/11 is one smoking gun. The cell phone calls is another. The first might be explicable or excuses might be invented to cover it. The cell phone calls aren't.
A terrorist link? Really?? Huh. :yh_think
Ignoring the off-topic comments - knowing how touchy you are about communications systems doing things beyond their design and all (how dare they suggest radio wave go up and down when they were designed to be two-dimensional) - So Mohammed redesigned his plans and started working on a second attack for eight years. I suppose the Clinton administration passed this information to the Bush, I mean PNAC, administration? Or had they been independently tracking them?
So, to a greater or lesser extent - and I think the claims of cell phone calls from 30,000 feet force it to have been greater - the US agency set the conditions for the attack to succeed. The "catastrophic catalyzing event" required by PNAC comes to pass, where left to itself it would have been a guaranteed failure.
The withdrawal of air cover on 9/11 is one smoking gun. The cell phone calls is another. The first might be explicable or excuses might be invented to cover it. The cell phone calls aren't.
A terrorist link? Really?? Huh. :yh_think
Ignoring the off-topic comments - knowing how touchy you are about communications systems doing things beyond their design and all (how dare they suggest radio wave go up and down when they were designed to be two-dimensional) - So Mohammed redesigned his plans and started working on a second attack for eight years. I suppose the Clinton administration passed this information to the Bush, I mean PNAC, administration? Or had they been independently tracking them?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;928784 wrote: A terrorist link? Really?? Huh. :yh_think
Ignoring the off-topic comments - knowing how touchy you are about communications systems doing things beyond their design and all (how dare they suggest radio wave go up and down when they were designed to be two-dimensional) - So Mohammed redesigned his plans and started working on a second attack for eight years. I suppose the Clinton administration passed this information to the Bush, I mean PNAC, administration? Or had they been independently tracking them?
We're talking about a US Intelligence agency. They're continuous across administrations.
I see no reason to think Khalid Sheikh Mohammed worked on the hijack plan for eight years, and I see no reason to think he planned the 1993 attack at all. He had several plans and the plane hijack one was a strand which came into focus - I'd need to go and re-read a book or two. 1998? Pushed into the foreground by Osama bin Laden around then?
There's needs to know on agencies tracking plotters, especially when the agency has turned people within the plot and doesn't want anyone to be able to hone in on who. None of this speculation on who the agency told about the plot interests me since it's unknowable. They were there when the Bush 2000 White House Administration assembled in January 2000, they briefed whoever they briefed and to whatever extent they briefed. They were given instructions and immunity, they did whatever they did. Someone arranging what they did didn't think about the cell phone impossibility and it showed through after the event. Why were they tinkering with cell phone Caller ID? I haven't the foggiest. Was it tinkered with? Absolutely yes it was.
"how dare they suggest radio wave go up and down when they were designed to be two-dimensional"? Aerials don't have spherical patterns of sensitivity or broadcast, you know. You have the vertical component reducing signal strength, you have the Doppler shift from the excessive speed, you have the short time over a given mast before handover, you have the distance. The consequence is that nobody holds voice calls with cell phones from 30,000 feet.
Ignoring the off-topic comments - knowing how touchy you are about communications systems doing things beyond their design and all (how dare they suggest radio wave go up and down when they were designed to be two-dimensional) - So Mohammed redesigned his plans and started working on a second attack for eight years. I suppose the Clinton administration passed this information to the Bush, I mean PNAC, administration? Or had they been independently tracking them?
We're talking about a US Intelligence agency. They're continuous across administrations.
I see no reason to think Khalid Sheikh Mohammed worked on the hijack plan for eight years, and I see no reason to think he planned the 1993 attack at all. He had several plans and the plane hijack one was a strand which came into focus - I'd need to go and re-read a book or two. 1998? Pushed into the foreground by Osama bin Laden around then?
There's needs to know on agencies tracking plotters, especially when the agency has turned people within the plot and doesn't want anyone to be able to hone in on who. None of this speculation on who the agency told about the plot interests me since it's unknowable. They were there when the Bush 2000 White House Administration assembled in January 2000, they briefed whoever they briefed and to whatever extent they briefed. They were given instructions and immunity, they did whatever they did. Someone arranging what they did didn't think about the cell phone impossibility and it showed through after the event. Why were they tinkering with cell phone Caller ID? I haven't the foggiest. Was it tinkered with? Absolutely yes it was.
"how dare they suggest radio wave go up and down when they were designed to be two-dimensional"? Aerials don't have spherical patterns of sensitivity or broadcast, you know. You have the vertical component reducing signal strength, you have the Doppler shift from the excessive speed, you have the short time over a given mast before handover, you have the distance. The consequence is that nobody holds voice calls with cell phones from 30,000 feet.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
People said much the same about the cause of the Reichstag Fire and it led directly to World War Two.
I haven't mentioned the CIA and I doubt whether anyone told GW Bush about it then or since.
"they concur that all the airphone calls are perfectly ligit"? I'm fully aware that Airphone calls could be made back then with no problem at all. I do wish we could stop talking about them.
"In Olsons case the final report from the 911 commision states the call came from an airphone not a cell phone. To state that openly they must have proof of some kind."? The FBI sworn testimony in the Zacarias Moussaoui trial said that there was no call to Ted Olson at all.
I haven't mentioned the CIA and I doubt whether anyone told GW Bush about it then or since.
"they concur that all the airphone calls are perfectly ligit"? I'm fully aware that Airphone calls could be made back then with no problem at all. I do wish we could stop talking about them.
"In Olsons case the final report from the 911 commision states the call came from an airphone not a cell phone. To state that openly they must have proof of some kind."? The FBI sworn testimony in the Zacarias Moussaoui trial said that there was no call to Ted Olson at all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;928002 wrote: DrJ, Spot, anybody else that claims 9/11 was an inside job:
The conversation about 9/11 is getting so convoluted I thought this part was worth a separate thread.
How long did preparations take the US gov't to pull off this complex hoax? Was the first bombing of the WTC just a practice run?
I really don't believe the US Government had anything to do with this attack! as a whole,, but the whole Bush family has ties a little too close to the fire,,,, The media blackout of the issue should tell everyone something ,, in my mind anyway,, keeping things from the people thru a lack of discussion screams..
There are so many un-answered questions,,,and so many doubts have been raised that feed into my own,, I am really left to wonder,, about who truly is responsible...
Seems some are content with this explanation,, Muslim extremists,, not me..
They have told us OBL's terrorist organization is guilty,,, but he is free...
We dove into Afghanistan when we knew he was there,, now we are told he is hold up in Pakistan,, what has changed,, why haven't we dove into Pakistan?
I don't understand why he was able to find sanctuary,, when in the beginning there was no such thing in the Bush administrations mind,, or so it seemed..
People died,, and people forgot!
Maybe these discussions will jumpstart this very alive issue,,
Where were you when it happen?
I consider the hunt for OBL a failure,, maybe a planned failure,, and I hope to be proven wrong,, but it doesn't look as of now, like that will ever happen..
The surge should of went to pakistan in the minds of the families of those that never came home that day,,,, why don't no- one hold so0mebodies feet to the fire for this most outragous and complete failure of an American President?
I can't understand why all America isn't up in arms,, does any of your alls family members have to be done in to get you people to give a ****,,,??
Why is this ******* still free? I need to know!!!
Why is America so quiet about it now?
That's the part that bothers me.. Ya see,, to some,,ACC,, this isn't all for nothing/..
Some people are a little suspicious for good reason,, Promises were made to them!! I guess they just have to settle for Saddam,,eh?
For the record tho,,, I don't rule nothing out as far as the possibilities of who,, what and why,, because of those that were made rich with 9/11 in their past..
I believe this topic is worth the discussion,, even if I'm wrong,,
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My biggest suspicion comes from the fact he is still free.,..
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Intelligence lapses or flawed strategy?
Pir Baksh Bardiwal, the intelligence chief for the Eastern Shura, which controls eastern Afghanistan, says he was astounded that Pentagon planners didn't consider the most obvious exit routes and put down light US infantry to block them.
"The border with Pakistan was the key, but no one paid any attention to it," he said, leaning back in his swivel chair with a short list of the Al Qaeda fighters who were later taken prisoner. "And there were plenty of landing areas for helicopters, had the Americans acted decisively. Al Qaeda escaped right out from under their feet."
The intelligence chief contends that several thousand Pakistani troops who had been placed along the border about Dec. 10 never did their job, nor could they have been expected to, given that the exit routes were not being blocked inside Afghanistan.
Acc,, If it's true that this is an attack,, with corporation involvement,, I 'd say it has been in the works since the 1st gulf war...
The conversation about 9/11 is getting so convoluted I thought this part was worth a separate thread.
How long did preparations take the US gov't to pull off this complex hoax? Was the first bombing of the WTC just a practice run?
I really don't believe the US Government had anything to do with this attack! as a whole,, but the whole Bush family has ties a little too close to the fire,,,, The media blackout of the issue should tell everyone something ,, in my mind anyway,, keeping things from the people thru a lack of discussion screams..
There are so many un-answered questions,,,and so many doubts have been raised that feed into my own,, I am really left to wonder,, about who truly is responsible...
Seems some are content with this explanation,, Muslim extremists,, not me..
They have told us OBL's terrorist organization is guilty,,, but he is free...
We dove into Afghanistan when we knew he was there,, now we are told he is hold up in Pakistan,, what has changed,, why haven't we dove into Pakistan?
I don't understand why he was able to find sanctuary,, when in the beginning there was no such thing in the Bush administrations mind,, or so it seemed..
People died,, and people forgot!
Maybe these discussions will jumpstart this very alive issue,,
Where were you when it happen?
I consider the hunt for OBL a failure,, maybe a planned failure,, and I hope to be proven wrong,, but it doesn't look as of now, like that will ever happen..
The surge should of went to pakistan in the minds of the families of those that never came home that day,,,, why don't no- one hold so0mebodies feet to the fire for this most outragous and complete failure of an American President?
I can't understand why all America isn't up in arms,, does any of your alls family members have to be done in to get you people to give a ****,,,??
Why is this ******* still free? I need to know!!!
Why is America so quiet about it now?
That's the part that bothers me.. Ya see,, to some,,ACC,, this isn't all for nothing/..
Some people are a little suspicious for good reason,, Promises were made to them!! I guess they just have to settle for Saddam,,eh?
For the record tho,,, I don't rule nothing out as far as the possibilities of who,, what and why,, because of those that were made rich with 9/11 in their past..
I believe this topic is worth the discussion,, even if I'm wrong,,
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My biggest suspicion comes from the fact he is still free.,..
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Intelligence lapses or flawed strategy?
Pir Baksh Bardiwal, the intelligence chief for the Eastern Shura, which controls eastern Afghanistan, says he was astounded that Pentagon planners didn't consider the most obvious exit routes and put down light US infantry to block them.
"The border with Pakistan was the key, but no one paid any attention to it," he said, leaning back in his swivel chair with a short list of the Al Qaeda fighters who were later taken prisoner. "And there were plenty of landing areas for helicopters, had the Americans acted decisively. Al Qaeda escaped right out from under their feet."
The intelligence chief contends that several thousand Pakistani troops who had been placed along the border about Dec. 10 never did their job, nor could they have been expected to, given that the exit routes were not being blocked inside Afghanistan.
Acc,, If it's true that this is an attack,, with corporation involvement,, I 'd say it has been in the works since the 1st gulf war...
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Is there something to this?
It is something that could dispell GWB from any conspiracy,, but they are stalling,,,
I want to be wrong,, Really,,
these doubts in the minds of many need answered..
I believe if they don't catch him,, all who have suspicions will become more vocal,,
catching him alive would kill all these doubts,,
site wrote:
Assuming the first, one wonders which of Chomsky’s military contacts have assured him of such loyalty, against the public opinion of numerous former government officials and retired members of the armed forces and intelligence services of various ranks and experience who’ve expressed strong and apparently informed opinions that 9/11 was indeed an “inside job.” This considerable list includes Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, a retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot, who remarks, “Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away. If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or... to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you?”
Not giving the slightest indication that he’s bothered to consider the scholarly treatments on the matter by Ahmed or Griffin or dissents from the official narrative of the attacks by those who’ve actually worked within the military/industrial establishment, Chomsky arbitrarily limits the list of suspects to the “Bush administration.” In offering his personal assurance that an official conspiracy is “extremely unlikely,” he states, “for one thing they would have had to have been insane to try anything like that… If they had, it’s almost certain it would have leaked.” In hastening to assure us of the administration’s sanity Chomsky simply ignores revelations from a number of government personnel that strongly indicate official complicity in the attacks, such as that provided by (among others) Robert Wright and Colleen Rowley (both at the time of the FBI), as well as then-Counsel for the US House of Representatives David Schippers, who reports that a dozen FBI agents approached him five weeks before 9/11 with detailed and specific information regarding the impending terror attacks which, according to Schippers, the agents claimed they were being thwarted from preventing by superiors who’d threatened them with reprimand and prosecution under the National Security Act should they pursue their investigations further. If the extensive and damning testimonials of these figures does not comprise the sort of “leaks” to which Mr. Chomsky refers, it’s difficult to imagine what would. Yet heedless of them, the professor yammers on, “You know it’s a very poor system, secrets are hard to keep.”
“Something would have leaked out very likely…” he continues, as if reiterating the inevitability erases the fact. “…and if it had they would have all been before firing squads and that would have been the end of the Republican party forever.” Were it naiveté such spellbinding idiocy would almost be endearing, as it implies any number of irrational assumptions, not the least of which is that only Republicans would have been implicated, and that our military or law-enforcement agencies, wholly innocent of the affair themselves, would take matters, vigilante-style, into their own hands. Lost in his spaghetti-western daydream of frontier justice, Chomsky refuses to suspect, much less see, what should be obvious to him of all people: the systemic nature of the corruption afflicting the late- (i.e. corporate- or monopoly-) capitalist military/industrial power structure.
These found along the path,,, have insight,, but what if anything does it prove?
Anything is possible
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=5275304&page=1
The Pentagon has drafted a secret plan that would send U.S. special forces into the wild tribal regions of Pakistan to capture or kill Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, but the White House has balked at giving the mission a green light, The New York Times reported today.
New leaked reports have exposed U.S. covert operations in the Middle East.The Bush administration, which has seven months left in its term, gave the go-ahead for the military to draw up the plan to take the war on terror across the Afghan border and into the mountains of Pakistan where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, according to the newspaper.
Intelligence reports have concluded that bin Laden has re-established a network of new training camps, and the number of recruits in those camps has risen to as many as 2,000 in recent months from 200 earlier this year.
Although the special forces attack plan was devised six months ago, infighting among U.S. intelligence agencies and among White House offices have blocked it from being implemented, the Times reported.
Related
Accused 9/11 Planner in Guantanamo CourtHow Much Did He Really Do?ABC Exclusive: Pakistani Bomb Scientist Breaks SilenceThe Bush team would like to leave office next January having put bin Laden, the man behind the Sept. 11 attacks, behind bars or in his grave.
But sending U.S. forces into Pakistan would be controversial and risky. The rugged mountain area is populated by bin Laden sympathizers, hurting the chances that such a raid could succeed. It would also trigger a diplomatic outcry from the Pakistani government.
The United States has conducted a series of aerial drone attacks on Taliban and al Qaeda leaders in Pakistan, killing several key Qaeda figures and narrowly missing bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, in one strike. But an attack earlier this month killed several Pakistani border guards instead and has made Pakistan less willing to allow U.S. strikes on its territory.
The Taliban of Pakistan, who are close al Qaeda allies, have grown alarmingly stronger in Pakistan's lawless border areas and threatened the regional capital of Peshawar last week.
Pakistan's new coalition government, which has made a series of truces with the militants in recent months, was forced over the weekend to launch an offensive to push the militants back from the outskirts of Peshawar.
Pakistan called the operation a success, even though none of the heavily armed militants in the area were reported killed.
check this out,, they say it's why she had to go!
,,
It is something that could dispell GWB from any conspiracy,, but they are stalling,,,
I want to be wrong,, Really,,
these doubts in the minds of many need answered..
I believe if they don't catch him,, all who have suspicions will become more vocal,,
catching him alive would kill all these doubts,,
site wrote:
Assuming the first, one wonders which of Chomsky’s military contacts have assured him of such loyalty, against the public opinion of numerous former government officials and retired members of the armed forces and intelligence services of various ranks and experience who’ve expressed strong and apparently informed opinions that 9/11 was indeed an “inside job.” This considerable list includes Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, a retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot, who remarks, “Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away. If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or... to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you?”
Not giving the slightest indication that he’s bothered to consider the scholarly treatments on the matter by Ahmed or Griffin or dissents from the official narrative of the attacks by those who’ve actually worked within the military/industrial establishment, Chomsky arbitrarily limits the list of suspects to the “Bush administration.” In offering his personal assurance that an official conspiracy is “extremely unlikely,” he states, “for one thing they would have had to have been insane to try anything like that… If they had, it’s almost certain it would have leaked.” In hastening to assure us of the administration’s sanity Chomsky simply ignores revelations from a number of government personnel that strongly indicate official complicity in the attacks, such as that provided by (among others) Robert Wright and Colleen Rowley (both at the time of the FBI), as well as then-Counsel for the US House of Representatives David Schippers, who reports that a dozen FBI agents approached him five weeks before 9/11 with detailed and specific information regarding the impending terror attacks which, according to Schippers, the agents claimed they were being thwarted from preventing by superiors who’d threatened them with reprimand and prosecution under the National Security Act should they pursue their investigations further. If the extensive and damning testimonials of these figures does not comprise the sort of “leaks” to which Mr. Chomsky refers, it’s difficult to imagine what would. Yet heedless of them, the professor yammers on, “You know it’s a very poor system, secrets are hard to keep.”
“Something would have leaked out very likely…” he continues, as if reiterating the inevitability erases the fact. “…and if it had they would have all been before firing squads and that would have been the end of the Republican party forever.” Were it naiveté such spellbinding idiocy would almost be endearing, as it implies any number of irrational assumptions, not the least of which is that only Republicans would have been implicated, and that our military or law-enforcement agencies, wholly innocent of the affair themselves, would take matters, vigilante-style, into their own hands. Lost in his spaghetti-western daydream of frontier justice, Chomsky refuses to suspect, much less see, what should be obvious to him of all people: the systemic nature of the corruption afflicting the late- (i.e. corporate- or monopoly-) capitalist military/industrial power structure.
These found along the path,,, have insight,, but what if anything does it prove?
Anything is possible
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=5275304&page=1
The Pentagon has drafted a secret plan that would send U.S. special forces into the wild tribal regions of Pakistan to capture or kill Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, but the White House has balked at giving the mission a green light, The New York Times reported today.
New leaked reports have exposed U.S. covert operations in the Middle East.The Bush administration, which has seven months left in its term, gave the go-ahead for the military to draw up the plan to take the war on terror across the Afghan border and into the mountains of Pakistan where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, according to the newspaper.
Intelligence reports have concluded that bin Laden has re-established a network of new training camps, and the number of recruits in those camps has risen to as many as 2,000 in recent months from 200 earlier this year.
Although the special forces attack plan was devised six months ago, infighting among U.S. intelligence agencies and among White House offices have blocked it from being implemented, the Times reported.
Related
Accused 9/11 Planner in Guantanamo CourtHow Much Did He Really Do?ABC Exclusive: Pakistani Bomb Scientist Breaks SilenceThe Bush team would like to leave office next January having put bin Laden, the man behind the Sept. 11 attacks, behind bars or in his grave.
But sending U.S. forces into Pakistan would be controversial and risky. The rugged mountain area is populated by bin Laden sympathizers, hurting the chances that such a raid could succeed. It would also trigger a diplomatic outcry from the Pakistani government.
The United States has conducted a series of aerial drone attacks on Taliban and al Qaeda leaders in Pakistan, killing several key Qaeda figures and narrowly missing bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, in one strike. But an attack earlier this month killed several Pakistani border guards instead and has made Pakistan less willing to allow U.S. strikes on its territory.
The Taliban of Pakistan, who are close al Qaeda allies, have grown alarmingly stronger in Pakistan's lawless border areas and threatened the regional capital of Peshawar last week.
Pakistan's new coalition government, which has made a series of truces with the militants in recent months, was forced over the weekend to launch an offensive to push the militants back from the outskirts of Peshawar.
Pakistan called the operation a success, even though none of the heavily armed militants in the area were reported killed.
check this out,, they say it's why she had to go!
,,
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;928816 wrote: We're talking about a US Intelligence agency. They're continuous across administrations.
I see no reason to think Khalid Sheikh Mohammed worked on the hijack plan for eight years, and I see no reason to think he planned the 1993 attack at all. He had several plans and the plane hijack one was a strand which came into focus - I'd need to go and re-read a book or two. 1998? Pushed into the foreground by Osama bin Laden around then?
There's needs to know on agencies tracking plotters, especially when the agency has turned people within the plot and doesn't want anyone to be able to hone in on who. None of this speculation on who the agency told about the plot interests me since it's unknowable. They were there when the Bush 2000 White House Administration assembled in January 2000, they briefed whoever they briefed and to whatever extent they briefed. They were given instructions and immunity, they did whatever they did.
So the PNAC administration didn't coordinate with the terrorists yet somehow figured out that someday they would fly 747's into the WTC and decided to help by rigging it with explosives. Got it. So when did the demo experts start setting the charges?
I see no reason to think Khalid Sheikh Mohammed worked on the hijack plan for eight years, and I see no reason to think he planned the 1993 attack at all. He had several plans and the plane hijack one was a strand which came into focus - I'd need to go and re-read a book or two. 1998? Pushed into the foreground by Osama bin Laden around then?
There's needs to know on agencies tracking plotters, especially when the agency has turned people within the plot and doesn't want anyone to be able to hone in on who. None of this speculation on who the agency told about the plot interests me since it's unknowable. They were there when the Bush 2000 White House Administration assembled in January 2000, they briefed whoever they briefed and to whatever extent they briefed. They were given instructions and immunity, they did whatever they did.
So the PNAC administration didn't coordinate with the terrorists yet somehow figured out that someday they would fly 747's into the WTC and decided to help by rigging it with explosives. Got it. So when did the demo experts start setting the charges?
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
DrJ;929197 wrote: I really don't believe the US Government had anything to do with this attack! as a whole,, but the whole Bush family has ties a little too close to the fire,,,,
So President Bush didn't use the government to pull this off. Got it. To simplify the discussion, do you have a name for the group that's responsible? So how long did it take to coordinate this fake attack: setting explosives finding suicidal pilots or rigging remote control 747s, doing the cell phone thing, etc etc etc? Did they do it all in less than eight months, as Spot says, or did it take longer?
So President Bush didn't use the government to pull this off. Got it. To simplify the discussion, do you have a name for the group that's responsible? So how long did it take to coordinate this fake attack: setting explosives finding suicidal pilots or rigging remote control 747s, doing the cell phone thing, etc etc etc? Did they do it all in less than eight months, as Spot says, or did it take longer?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;929544 wrote: So the PNAC administration didn't coordinate with the terrorists yet somehow figured out that someday they would fly 747's into the WTC and decided to help by rigging it with explosives. Got it. So when did the demo experts start setting the charges?
If you've an Intelligence agency with turned members in an organization telling you everything that's going on then nobody need to figure out anything. Al Qaeda were two years into putting the flights together by the time the 2000 elections were over.
How do you expect me or anyone else to know the mechanics of the covert operation? Wait for the leaks and the enquiry and the trials, they'll tell you. What I've done is to ask for any evidence that anyone's put through multiple voice cell phone calls from cruising altitude in an airliner - a request for a positive, not a request for a negative, you'll notice. I'm quite certain it couldn't be done. There are FBI FOI reports that these were cell phone Caller IDs showing. You can't add 1 and 1 and get anything but 2. Those calls didn't originate from planes where those hijacked planes have been described under oath by US law enforcement as being. There are lies.
Given that there are lies, I want to know why WTC7 came down. I want to know why the scene of crime was tidied away without adequate investigation, because there was undoubtedly a crime. I want to know why 9/11 is the only non-intercept day in a proud history of timely air intercepts by the air force. Given that there were lies I think the picture points to PNAC's "catastrophic catalyzing event" being deliberately enabled under White House orders and immunity.
If you've an Intelligence agency with turned members in an organization telling you everything that's going on then nobody need to figure out anything. Al Qaeda were two years into putting the flights together by the time the 2000 elections were over.
How do you expect me or anyone else to know the mechanics of the covert operation? Wait for the leaks and the enquiry and the trials, they'll tell you. What I've done is to ask for any evidence that anyone's put through multiple voice cell phone calls from cruising altitude in an airliner - a request for a positive, not a request for a negative, you'll notice. I'm quite certain it couldn't be done. There are FBI FOI reports that these were cell phone Caller IDs showing. You can't add 1 and 1 and get anything but 2. Those calls didn't originate from planes where those hijacked planes have been described under oath by US law enforcement as being. There are lies.
Given that there are lies, I want to know why WTC7 came down. I want to know why the scene of crime was tidied away without adequate investigation, because there was undoubtedly a crime. I want to know why 9/11 is the only non-intercept day in a proud history of timely air intercepts by the air force. Given that there were lies I think the picture points to PNAC's "catastrophic catalyzing event" being deliberately enabled under White House orders and immunity.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;929560 wrote: If you've an Intelligence agency with turned members in an organization telling you everything that's going on then nobody need to figure out anything. Al Qaeda were two years into putting the flights together by the time the 2000 elections were over.
How do you expect me or anyone else to know the mechanics of the covert operation? Wait for the leaks and the enquiry and the trials, they'll tell you. What I've done is to ask for any evidence that anyone's put through multiple voice cell phone calls from cruising altitude in an airliner - a request for a positive, not a request for a negative, you'll notice. I'm quite certain it couldn't be done. There are FBI FOI reports that these were cell phone Caller IDs showing. You can't add 1 and 1 and get anything but 2. Those calls didn't originate from planes where those hijacked planes have been described under oath by US law enforcement as being. There are lies.
Given that there are lies, I want to know why WTC7 came down. I want to know why the scene of crime was tidied away without adequate investigation, because there was undoubtedly a crime. I want to know why 9/11 is the only non-intercept day in a proud history of timely air intercepts by the air force. Given that there were lies I think the picture points to PNAC's "catastrophic catalyzing event" being deliberately enabled under White House orders and immunity.Try to stay focused, spot. You claim the attack was a setup by the top echelon of my federal gov't to fool us sheep into waging war with a fictional enemy. I'm trying to find out how long the preparations took. You keep harping on a cell phone call which takes no preparation at all, and thus has no place in this particular conversation.
So PNAC knew about Al Qaeda's plan to hit the towers for two years yet didn't start setting the explosives until they's placed Jr Bush (presumably by fixing the election). Is that right?
How do you expect me or anyone else to know the mechanics of the covert operation? Wait for the leaks and the enquiry and the trials, they'll tell you. What I've done is to ask for any evidence that anyone's put through multiple voice cell phone calls from cruising altitude in an airliner - a request for a positive, not a request for a negative, you'll notice. I'm quite certain it couldn't be done. There are FBI FOI reports that these were cell phone Caller IDs showing. You can't add 1 and 1 and get anything but 2. Those calls didn't originate from planes where those hijacked planes have been described under oath by US law enforcement as being. There are lies.
Given that there are lies, I want to know why WTC7 came down. I want to know why the scene of crime was tidied away without adequate investigation, because there was undoubtedly a crime. I want to know why 9/11 is the only non-intercept day in a proud history of timely air intercepts by the air force. Given that there were lies I think the picture points to PNAC's "catastrophic catalyzing event" being deliberately enabled under White House orders and immunity.Try to stay focused, spot. You claim the attack was a setup by the top echelon of my federal gov't to fool us sheep into waging war with a fictional enemy. I'm trying to find out how long the preparations took. You keep harping on a cell phone call which takes no preparation at all, and thus has no place in this particular conversation.
So PNAC knew about Al Qaeda's plan to hit the towers for two years yet didn't start setting the explosives until they's placed Jr Bush (presumably by fixing the election). Is that right?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;929586 wrote: Try to stay focused, spot. You claim the attack was a setup by the top echelon of my federal gov't to fool us sheep into waging war with a fictional enemy. I'm trying to find out how long the preparations took. You keep harping on a cell phone call which takes no preparation at all, and thus has no place in this particular conversation.
So PNAC knew about Al Qaeda's plan to hit the towers for two years yet didn't start setting the explosives until they's placed Jr Bush (presumably by fixing the election). Is that right?
You're being deliberately obtuse. PNAC is a political pressure group, not a covert executive organization. It "didn't start setting the explosives" ever. It had no ability to command any covert executive organization until January 2000. I'm quite sure PNAC knew nothing about Al Qaeda's plan to hit the towers for two years - how could they have? They're not an Intelligence agency. I think it's more likely than not that a US Intelligence agency did know every move that was being made from 1998 onward though. Isn't that why you pay them?
That's exactly what I wrote last time, before you garbled it. Why are you garbling what I say?
A "cell phone call which takes no preparation at all" is equally inane. If someone gets a series of Caller ID cell phone calls claiming to be in a plane and the plane's subsequently claimed officially on oath to be at cruising altitude during at least one of them then there's obviously a lot of planning gone into making that happen. There are lots of ways of doing it, I don't pretend to offer any of them as options. Being in a plane at cruising altitude isn't one of them, that's an impossibility.
So PNAC knew about Al Qaeda's plan to hit the towers for two years yet didn't start setting the explosives until they's placed Jr Bush (presumably by fixing the election). Is that right?
You're being deliberately obtuse. PNAC is a political pressure group, not a covert executive organization. It "didn't start setting the explosives" ever. It had no ability to command any covert executive organization until January 2000. I'm quite sure PNAC knew nothing about Al Qaeda's plan to hit the towers for two years - how could they have? They're not an Intelligence agency. I think it's more likely than not that a US Intelligence agency did know every move that was being made from 1998 onward though. Isn't that why you pay them?
That's exactly what I wrote last time, before you garbled it. Why are you garbling what I say?
A "cell phone call which takes no preparation at all" is equally inane. If someone gets a series of Caller ID cell phone calls claiming to be in a plane and the plane's subsequently claimed officially on oath to be at cruising altitude during at least one of them then there's obviously a lot of planning gone into making that happen. There are lots of ways of doing it, I don't pretend to offer any of them as options. Being in a plane at cruising altitude isn't one of them, that's an impossibility.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;929901 wrote: You're being deliberately obtuse. PNAC is a political pressure group, not a covert executive organization.
spot;927489 wrote: GW Bush is a singularly trivial little front man, I doubt whether he's made a single decision of state since he entered the White House for his first term.
This White House Administration and PNAC are equivalent terms, they're the same people. Just look at the list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac#Assoc ... nistration
I can't very well name the administrative arm of the most powerful military nation after a trivial front man, now can I? I have to name it after the guys in charge.
I think it would be naive to think these PNAC guys wouldn't keep their contacts they'd made in Washington over the years, especially those in intelligence, which as you say are continuous across administrations. And since they are powerful enough to place a trivial front man in the Oval Office not once but twice, it's logical to assume they are powerful enough to gain access to any classified documents they may need.
Besides, according to your link they've been together officially since '97, likely even longer unofficially. One might think it deliberately obtuse to think they didn't consider the attack for nearly four years.
spot;927489 wrote: GW Bush is a singularly trivial little front man, I doubt whether he's made a single decision of state since he entered the White House for his first term.
This White House Administration and PNAC are equivalent terms, they're the same people. Just look at the list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac#Assoc ... nistration
I can't very well name the administrative arm of the most powerful military nation after a trivial front man, now can I? I have to name it after the guys in charge.
I think it would be naive to think these PNAC guys wouldn't keep their contacts they'd made in Washington over the years, especially those in intelligence, which as you say are continuous across administrations. And since they are powerful enough to place a trivial front man in the Oval Office not once but twice, it's logical to assume they are powerful enough to gain access to any classified documents they may need.
Besides, according to your link they've been together officially since '97, likely even longer unofficially. One might think it deliberately obtuse to think they didn't consider the attack for nearly four years.
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;930295 wrote: I can't very well name the administrative arm of the most powerful military nation after a trivial front man, now can I? I have to name it after the guys in charge.
I think it would be naive to think these PNAC guys wouldn't keep their contacts they'd made in Washington over the years, especially those in intelligence, which as you say are continuous across administrations. And since they are powerful enough to place a trivial front man in the Oval Office not once but twice, it's logical to assume they are powerful enough to gain access to any classified documents they may need.
Besides, according to your link they've been together officially since '97, likely even longer unofficially. One might think it deliberately obtuse to think they didn't consider the attack for nearly four years.
All that's true. What they can't do from outside the White House is give covert executive organizations orders or immunity. I'm sure there are unofficial back channels but you can't drive the bus until you get given the keys.
PNAC was neither a covert executive organization nor an Intelligence agency, it was a pressure group which became the White House Administration after the 2000 presidential election.
I think it would be naive to think these PNAC guys wouldn't keep their contacts they'd made in Washington over the years, especially those in intelligence, which as you say are continuous across administrations. And since they are powerful enough to place a trivial front man in the Oval Office not once but twice, it's logical to assume they are powerful enough to gain access to any classified documents they may need.
Besides, according to your link they've been together officially since '97, likely even longer unofficially. One might think it deliberately obtuse to think they didn't consider the attack for nearly four years.
All that's true. What they can't do from outside the White House is give covert executive organizations orders or immunity. I'm sure there are unofficial back channels but you can't drive the bus until you get given the keys.
PNAC was neither a covert executive organization nor an Intelligence agency, it was a pressure group which became the White House Administration after the 2000 presidential election.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
spot;930305 wrote: All that's true. What they can't do from outside the White House is give covert executive organizations orders or immunity. I'm sure there are unofficial back channels but you can't drive the bus until you get given the keys.
PNAC was neither a covert executive organization nor an Intelligence agency, it was a pressure group which became the White House Administration after the 2000 presidential election.
So PNAC, who's membership is listed in Wikipedia, in a planned effort to force war in the Middle East, and specifically in Iraq, installed a trivial front man - a puppet - into the office of President of the United States, tracked, aided, and abetted the greatest act of mass murder in the history of the United States, had demolition crews secretly plant explosives throughout one of the busiest and most famous office buildings in the world, and tossed in blowing a hole in the Pentagon for good measure. They also fabricated some good ol' Hollywood-style hero stories to stir citizens' heartstrings as distraction.
The planning likely started in or befor 1997, and was executed during the first eight months of the fake President's fake presidency.
That about cover it?
PNAC was neither a covert executive organization nor an Intelligence agency, it was a pressure group which became the White House Administration after the 2000 presidential election.
So PNAC, who's membership is listed in Wikipedia, in a planned effort to force war in the Middle East, and specifically in Iraq, installed a trivial front man - a puppet - into the office of President of the United States, tracked, aided, and abetted the greatest act of mass murder in the history of the United States, had demolition crews secretly plant explosives throughout one of the busiest and most famous office buildings in the world, and tossed in blowing a hole in the Pentagon for good measure. They also fabricated some good ol' Hollywood-style hero stories to stir citizens' heartstrings as distraction.
The planning likely started in or befor 1997, and was executed during the first eight months of the fake President's fake presidency.
That about cover it?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;930687 wrote: So PNAC, who's membership is listed in Wikipedia, in a planned effort to force war in the Middle East, and specifically in Iraq, installed a trivial front man - a puppet - into the office of President of the United States, tracked, aided, and abetted the greatest act of mass murder in the history of the United States, had demolition crews secretly plant explosives throughout one of the busiest and most famous office buildings in the world, and tossed in blowing a hole in the Pentagon for good measure. They also fabricated some good ol' Hollywood-style hero stories to stir citizens' heartstrings as distraction.
The planning likely started in or befor 1997, and was executed during the first eight months of the fake President's fake presidency.
That about cover it?
He's a real president in a real presidency, he's just a one-time coke-sniffing alcoholic dork with little brain and no morals whose daddy was president earlier and nobody in their right mind would tell him anything they'd want to keep secret. He's the idiot who used the word Crusade and gets jokes about "The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur" invented about him because they fit so well.
Apart from that, it's the Professor Higgins moment. By Jove, I think he's got it.
The planning likely started in or befor 1997, and was executed during the first eight months of the fake President's fake presidency.
That about cover it?
He's a real president in a real presidency, he's just a one-time coke-sniffing alcoholic dork with little brain and no morals whose daddy was president earlier and nobody in their right mind would tell him anything they'd want to keep secret. He's the idiot who used the word Crusade and gets jokes about "The problem with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur" invented about him because they fit so well.
Apart from that, it's the Professor Higgins moment. By Jove, I think he's got it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Okay, we've got Spot's "theory". DrJ on the other hand thinks it was the Bush family without government help. I look forward to nailing that one down.
Anyone else?
Anyone else?
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
theory wrote: SPOT
So PNAC, who's membership is listed in Wikipedia, in a planned effort to force war in the Middle East, and specifically in Iraq, installed a trivial front man - a puppet - into the office of President of the United States, tracked, aided, and abetted the greatest act of mass murder in the history of the United States, had demolition crews secretly plant explosives throughout one of the busiest and most famous office buildings in the world, and tossed in blowing a hole in the Pentagon for good measure. They also fabricated some good ol' Hollywood-style hero stories to stir citizens' heartstrings as distraction.
The planning likely started in or befor 1997, and was executed during the first eight months of the fake President's fake presidency.
Accountable;931041 wrote: Okay, we've got Spot's "theory". DrJ on the other hand thinks it was the Bush family without government help. I look forward to nailing that one down.
Anyone else?
I have to be honest here,, I think Spot has something there,, maybe its just one dept,, or one part of a larger picture,, but a key part..
If you think of it in terms of organized crime,, I think you are on your way to understanding how things could have all come together,, on one day in Sept,, right after an election year,,, a presidential election year...
I read something along time ago about the desire for pipelines in afghanistan,,
and the resistance to it by the taliban,, who inherited a country basically saved by the CIA,,, and Arab Muslims,,, and politicians whose money came from Texas oil people,, it's a puzzle thru time,, obviously,,,but when the pieces are put together,,
it's hard not to notice how well all the pieces seem to fit so perfectly.
Charlie Wilson's War,,,, was a beginning,,
I bet the Taliban were as naive as some Americans are now,,,about 9/11,, thinking they were going to be able to keep a whole country to themselves,,, thx to the Bin Laden Saudis,,,, and the American assistance,, I'm guessing again:-3
I'm betting on this theory because the more you put the pieces together,, the more Bin Laden looks like maybe a double agent,, if not a fool himself..
Maybe the deal was,,, give 'em Afghanistan and they will leave Saudi Arabia..
How many of you weren't aware of the fact that the Bush/Bin Laden families were in business together?
How many of you still believe GWB is the executive in charge in this administration?
I don't care what the official story is!
So PNAC, who's membership is listed in Wikipedia, in a planned effort to force war in the Middle East, and specifically in Iraq, installed a trivial front man - a puppet - into the office of President of the United States, tracked, aided, and abetted the greatest act of mass murder in the history of the United States, had demolition crews secretly plant explosives throughout one of the busiest and most famous office buildings in the world, and tossed in blowing a hole in the Pentagon for good measure. They also fabricated some good ol' Hollywood-style hero stories to stir citizens' heartstrings as distraction.
The planning likely started in or befor 1997, and was executed during the first eight months of the fake President's fake presidency.
Accountable;931041 wrote: Okay, we've got Spot's "theory". DrJ on the other hand thinks it was the Bush family without government help. I look forward to nailing that one down.
Anyone else?
I have to be honest here,, I think Spot has something there,, maybe its just one dept,, or one part of a larger picture,, but a key part..
If you think of it in terms of organized crime,, I think you are on your way to understanding how things could have all come together,, on one day in Sept,, right after an election year,,, a presidential election year...
I read something along time ago about the desire for pipelines in afghanistan,,
and the resistance to it by the taliban,, who inherited a country basically saved by the CIA,,, and Arab Muslims,,, and politicians whose money came from Texas oil people,, it's a puzzle thru time,, obviously,,,but when the pieces are put together,,
it's hard not to notice how well all the pieces seem to fit so perfectly.
Charlie Wilson's War,,,, was a beginning,,
I bet the Taliban were as naive as some Americans are now,,,about 9/11,, thinking they were going to be able to keep a whole country to themselves,,, thx to the Bin Laden Saudis,,,, and the American assistance,, I'm guessing again:-3
I'm betting on this theory because the more you put the pieces together,, the more Bin Laden looks like maybe a double agent,, if not a fool himself..
Maybe the deal was,,, give 'em Afghanistan and they will leave Saudi Arabia..
How many of you weren't aware of the fact that the Bush/Bin Laden families were in business together?
How many of you still believe GWB is the executive in charge in this administration?
I don't care what the official story is!
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
DrJ;931238 wrote: I have to be honest here,, I think Spot has something there,, maybe its just one dept,, or one part of a larger picture,, but a key part..
If you think of it in terms of organized crime,, I think you are on your way to understanding how things could have all come together,, on one day in Sept,, right after an election year,,, a presidential election year...
I read something along time ago about the desire for pipelines in afghanistan,,
and the resistance to it by the taliban,, who inherited a country basically saved by the CIA,,, and Arab Muslims,,, and politicians whose money came from Texas oil people,, it's a puzzle thru time,, obviously,,,but when the pieces are put together,,
it's hard not to notice how well all the pieces seem to fit so perfectly.
Charlie Wilson's War,,,, was a beginning,,
I bet the Taliban were as naive as some Americans are now,,,about 9/11,, thinking they were going to be able to keep a whole country to themselves,,, thx to the Bin Laden Saudis,,,, and the American assistance,, I'm guessing again:-3
I'm betting on this theory because the more you put the pieces together,, the more Bin Laden looks like maybe a double agent,, if not a fool himself..
Maybe the deal was,,, give 'em Afghanistan and they will leave Saudi Arabia..
How many of you weren't aware of the fact that the Bush/Bin Laden families were in business together?
How many of you still believe GWB is the executive in charge in this administration?
I don't care what the official story is!Don't worry, I won't confuse things with facts, just the stuff you & spot bring up.
Thank you both. Now we have a time frame. On to the next piece.
If you think of it in terms of organized crime,, I think you are on your way to understanding how things could have all come together,, on one day in Sept,, right after an election year,,, a presidential election year...
I read something along time ago about the desire for pipelines in afghanistan,,
and the resistance to it by the taliban,, who inherited a country basically saved by the CIA,,, and Arab Muslims,,, and politicians whose money came from Texas oil people,, it's a puzzle thru time,, obviously,,,but when the pieces are put together,,
it's hard not to notice how well all the pieces seem to fit so perfectly.
Charlie Wilson's War,,,, was a beginning,,
I bet the Taliban were as naive as some Americans are now,,,about 9/11,, thinking they were going to be able to keep a whole country to themselves,,, thx to the Bin Laden Saudis,,,, and the American assistance,, I'm guessing again:-3
I'm betting on this theory because the more you put the pieces together,, the more Bin Laden looks like maybe a double agent,, if not a fool himself..
Maybe the deal was,,, give 'em Afghanistan and they will leave Saudi Arabia..
How many of you weren't aware of the fact that the Bush/Bin Laden families were in business together?
How many of you still believe GWB is the executive in charge in this administration?
I don't care what the official story is!Don't worry, I won't confuse things with facts, just the stuff you & spot bring up.
Thank you both. Now we have a time frame. On to the next piece.
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
Accountable;931365 wrote: Don't worry, I won't confuse things with facts, just the stuff you & spot bring up.
Thank you both. Now we have a time frame. On to the next piece.
Anybody that believes anything that comes at of this perticular white house after all the secracy and bullshe-it that has come forth,.,, I hate to say this ,,
HAS GOT A DEFINITE MENTAL PROBLEM!!:wah:
Has this not taught you anything about politicians,, I think all America has been taught a valuable lesson between what a politicians says and the distance you can measure to what they actually do,,,do ,,,do,,,do...
Once politicians get past the hassle of going before the voting public their number one priority is to raise money for the next time they must go thru the tormented process of making promises they will never have time to keep..
Thats why "we the people' need to impose term limits on these con artist,,
the need for more political partys is what is needed,,, competition will bring better people to fore-front,,, That's why I think the Bush Family has done America the greatest service,, by showing us the lowest bar possible..
They were given a gift,, to serve the people,, but all they cared about was the money,,, to bad,, they had to hurt the people that looked up to them,,
dividing a nation is something they will be known for,, and what the saddest thing is,, they couldn't care less..
We are a country of people better than they are...
I have to believe that it is an educational thing,, this 9/11 issue,, to the voting public..
Maybe it's just my way of finding something good in it..
Thank you both. Now we have a time frame. On to the next piece.
Anybody that believes anything that comes at of this perticular white house after all the secracy and bullshe-it that has come forth,.,, I hate to say this ,,
HAS GOT A DEFINITE MENTAL PROBLEM!!:wah:
Has this not taught you anything about politicians,, I think all America has been taught a valuable lesson between what a politicians says and the distance you can measure to what they actually do,,,do ,,,do,,,do...
Once politicians get past the hassle of going before the voting public their number one priority is to raise money for the next time they must go thru the tormented process of making promises they will never have time to keep..
Thats why "we the people' need to impose term limits on these con artist,,
the need for more political partys is what is needed,,, competition will bring better people to fore-front,,, That's why I think the Bush Family has done America the greatest service,, by showing us the lowest bar possible..
They were given a gift,, to serve the people,, but all they cared about was the money,,, to bad,, they had to hurt the people that looked up to them,,
dividing a nation is something they will be known for,, and what the saddest thing is,, they couldn't care less..
We are a country of people better than they are...
I have to believe that it is an educational thing,, this 9/11 issue,, to the voting public..
Maybe it's just my way of finding something good in it..
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
DrJ;932381 wrote: Anybody that believes anything that comes at of this perticular white house after all the secracy and bullshe-it that has come forth,.,, I hate to say this ,,
HAS GOT A DEFINITE MENTAL PROBLEM!!:wah:Yeh that smiley is a clear indication how much you hate to say that.
DrJ wrote: Has this not taught you anything about politicians,, I think all America has been taught a valuable lesson between what a politicians says and the distance you can measure to what they actually do,,,do ,,,do,,,do...Has what taught me (us)? Our convo? It's taught me you'll buy any negative thing said about America as long as it comes from an unsubstantiated source.
DrJ wrote: Once politicians get past the hassle of going before the voting public their number one priority is to raise money for the next time they must go thru the tormented process of making promises they will never have time to keep..Of course. I've said the same thing myself many times. I'm sure you can find a quote here without looking too hard. But that is not evidence that they would murder 3000 innocent civilians as a trumped up excuse to go to war, sacrificing tens of thousands more.
DrJ wrote: Thats why "we the people' need to impose term limits on these con artist,,I go back and forth on this one. Imposing term limits means we can't trust ourselves - rather we can't trust everybody else - to correct a mistake when we see one.
DrJ wrote: the need for more political partys is what is needed,,, competition will bring better people to fore-front,,,Absolutely agree! :yh_clap
HAS GOT A DEFINITE MENTAL PROBLEM!!:wah:Yeh that smiley is a clear indication how much you hate to say that.
DrJ wrote: Has this not taught you anything about politicians,, I think all America has been taught a valuable lesson between what a politicians says and the distance you can measure to what they actually do,,,do ,,,do,,,do...Has what taught me (us)? Our convo? It's taught me you'll buy any negative thing said about America as long as it comes from an unsubstantiated source.
DrJ wrote: Once politicians get past the hassle of going before the voting public their number one priority is to raise money for the next time they must go thru the tormented process of making promises they will never have time to keep..Of course. I've said the same thing myself many times. I'm sure you can find a quote here without looking too hard. But that is not evidence that they would murder 3000 innocent civilians as a trumped up excuse to go to war, sacrificing tens of thousands more.
DrJ wrote: Thats why "we the people' need to impose term limits on these con artist,,I go back and forth on this one. Imposing term limits means we can't trust ourselves - rather we can't trust everybody else - to correct a mistake when we see one.
DrJ wrote: the need for more political partys is what is needed,,, competition will bring better people to fore-front,,,Absolutely agree! :yh_clap
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
acc wrote:
Yeh that smiley is a clear indication how much you hate to say that.
Oh c'mon,,,ok,,, it's because I think you play like you don't know this,, and I'm merely on the other side of the discussion...
Now I really don't know:-3
acc wrote:
Has what taught me (us)? Our convo? It's taught me you'll buy any negative thing said about America as long as it comes from an unsubstantiated source.
unsubstantiated? I'm starting to believe,,, think,,, there are very few media outlets that can honestly say their info is substantiated...
Now I know your a foxnews fan,, but all them other ones,, well they kinda funny!@
:yh_rotfl:yh_hypno:yh_youkid
Yeh that smiley is a clear indication how much you hate to say that.
Oh c'mon,,,ok,,, it's because I think you play like you don't know this,, and I'm merely on the other side of the discussion...
Now I really don't know:-3
acc wrote:
Has what taught me (us)? Our convo? It's taught me you'll buy any negative thing said about America as long as it comes from an unsubstantiated source.
unsubstantiated? I'm starting to believe,,, think,,, there are very few media outlets that can honestly say their info is substantiated...
Now I know your a foxnews fan,, but all them other ones,, well they kinda funny!@
:yh_rotfl:yh_hypno:yh_youkid
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
DrJ;940694 wrote: Oh c'mon,,,ok,,, it's because I think you play like you don't know this,, and I'm merely on the other side of the discussion...
Now I really don't know:-3
unsubstantiated? I'm starting to believe,,, think,,, there are very few media outlets that can honestly say their info is substantiated...
Now I know your a foxnews fan,, but all them other ones,, well they kinda funny!@
:yh_rotfl:yh_hypno:yh_youkid
You Know I Was Thinking The Same Thing Another ~ Fox-Ike ~ Brought And Pay For .. Like I Said Before The Media / Newspapper / Radio Etc , Is Being Control And One Would Think People Would Take The Blinder Off .
Overstand Something ~ When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action he'll just listen and obey and that what these people are doing , Ever notice they all saying the same thing over and over again .
Now I really don't know:-3
unsubstantiated? I'm starting to believe,,, think,,, there are very few media outlets that can honestly say their info is substantiated...
Now I know your a foxnews fan,, but all them other ones,, well they kinda funny!@
:yh_rotfl:yh_hypno:yh_youkid
You Know I Was Thinking The Same Thing Another ~ Fox-Ike ~ Brought And Pay For .. Like I Said Before The Media / Newspapper / Radio Etc , Is Being Control And One Would Think People Would Take The Blinder Off .
Overstand Something ~ When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action he'll just listen and obey and that what these people are doing , Ever notice they all saying the same thing over and over again .
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down
To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble
When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
jimbo;940989 wrote:
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_worshp:yh_clap
Now that ones a keeper!!
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_worshp:yh_clap
Now that ones a keeper!!
How long did 9/11 preparations take?
You like Apples?
Now I'm waiting to hear the new name for alqeada in the CIA's secret war with Russia,,,Team mates once again,,, just like before in Afghanistan...
Georgia,,, being the new battle ground,,,
Terrorism has been a friend to some American Corporations whenever needed,,,
This is a dangerous world!
Be Afraid,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Be Afraid,,, is the message...
Vote Republican!!!:yh_rotfl
How you like them apples?
Now I'm waiting to hear the new name for alqeada in the CIA's secret war with Russia,,,Team mates once again,,, just like before in Afghanistan...
Georgia,,, being the new battle ground,,,
Terrorism has been a friend to some American Corporations whenever needed,,,
This is a dangerous world!
Be Afraid,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Be Afraid,,, is the message...
Vote Republican!!!:yh_rotfl
How you like them apples?