America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Fact or Fiction? Discuss here.
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spot
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by spot »

Jester;931731 wrote: Again its stretching to come up with the connection and its not what is claimed.I've no idea what words you use in the USA but in England private investment firms don't have boards. I took him to mean they were both intimately connected with the top-level management of the place, rather like John Major. There are quite a few bin Ladens in the family, I for one don't think Osama went to any of the meetings. There were bin Ladens as well as Bush Sr in Washington during the 9/11 week meeting at the Carlisle Group. CRAIG UNGER: Right. In fact on September 11th itself, the Carlisle Group was having a meeting that morning at the Ritz Carlton in Washington D.C., and one of the bin Laden members, whose company has invested in Carlisle was present while the attacks were taking place, as was Secretary of State James Baker.

AMY GOODMAN: And George Bush had just flown out earlier, President George Bush, Sr. Last question, the response at Logan airport, one of the places where the hijackers had flown from, when they were told that all traffic was grounded, they were to allow a flight that took out Saudis and members of the bin Laden family. The response of the officials at Logan airport.

CRAIG UNGER: Well they were stunned. I spoke with the Director of Aviation, Tom Kinton, and he simply couldn’t believe it. He said how is it possible they’re letting them go. Virginia Buckingham, who is Head of MassPort, which is the agency that oversaw Logan was just agog. Here they were, the bin Ladens were on the tarmac in the plane. They simply couldn’t believe that they were being told to let them go without questioning.



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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by Accountable »

Jester;931731 wrote: Yes seriously, do you think I'm going to take the word of you or DrJ now? Every shred you've posted so far on this subject that supposedly ties folks together or is proof of more unanswered questions doesnt support what you claim it does.



DrJ said that Bush and Osama sat on the board of the carlyle group... What you posted mentions Osama's family holdings, not that Osama sat on the board of the group, it mentions Bush sr as an advisor to a board member.



Here's what Doc J said...





Again its stretching to come up with the connection and its not what is claimed.
HA! You think that's stretching? I found out that the organization that tell's Bush what to do (he's really brain dead, y'know) was started by another organization that was founded right after the first WTC attack and was headed up by John McCain! So now we know that McCain set up 9/11 and has been keeping a low profile until the time was right -- and that time is NOW. :cool:
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by spot »

Jester;931749 wrote: Thanks, I have another source, which I'll credit when I post my finidings.


As you will. That's the sworn testimony of the group which analysed the Data Recorder for the FBI, it's the only raw original source that I'm aware of. Where else do you get altitudes than from the recovered data recorder?
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by spot »

Accountable;931750 wrote: HA! You think that's stretching? I found out that the organization that tell's Bush what to do (he's really brain dead, y'know) was started by another organization that was founded right after the first WTC attack and was headed up by John McCain! So now we know that McCain set up 9/11 and has been keeping a low profile until the time was right -- and that time is NOW. :cool:


You're being silly. Or haven't you seen my post about that? It was headed up by John Walters.

This policy of laugh mockingly and it'll all have to be untrue as a consequence if the laughter isn't worthy of either of you, but you've both been doing a lot of it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by Accountable »

spot;931756 wrote: You're being silly.
:yh_rotfl *holds up mirror*
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by spot »

Jester;931758 wrote: I'm sure its the same oirginal source, mines from a trusted friend, who I'll take his explaination from.


And the first Caller ID'd cell phone call of the four is shown on the FBI agent's report as a couple of minutes into the hijacking. "Tom Burnett made several phone calls to his wife beginning at 09:30:32", those calls.

"I want proof Osama Bin Laden and Bush Sr, sat on the same committee for business while conducting biz for the carlisle group"? Go back and read what was said, you misquoted Dr J rather wilfully.. His words were I do believe Bush Sr was director of CIA, this is the the only bush that counts in this area..

Bush Sr,, and Bin Laden sat on the board of directors of the Carlyle Group.. Need Proof of that?First point made: "I do believe Bush Sr was director of CIA, this is the the only bush that counts in this area.. Bush Sr,,"

Second point made: "and Bin Laden sat on the board of directors of the Carlyle Group.. "

I've no idea how it was structured, the top management. If you can't quote straight though, we'll get nowhere.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

The Devil will tell you a thousand truths to convince you of one lie!



The heat of the fire,,,, is all you need to know? or better yet,,

All you want to know? Whatever gets you thru the day,,my friend.,...

The breakdowns in simple air-force procedure would make a normal person wonder,,, of all the days to lapse,, after all that training,, the day America needed them the most,, they forgot,, how to,, tie their own shoes...

I'm like you jester,, I don't wonder either,, I believe they were given the day off..



facts wrote:

On 21 January 2002, the Canadian media analyst Barry Zwicker summed up on CBC-TV: 'That morning no interceptors responded in a timely fashion to the highest alert situation. This includes the Andrews squadrons which ... are 12 miles from the White House ... Whatever the explanation for the huge failure, there have been no reports, to my knowledge, of reprimands. This further weakens the "Incompetence Theory". Incompetence usually earns reprimands. This causes me to ask whether there were "stand down" orders.'?? On 29 August 2002, the BBC reports that on 9/11 there were 'only four fighters on ready status in the north-eastern US'. Conspiracy? Coincidence? Error?

It is interesting how often in our history, when disaster strikes, incompetence is considered a better alibi than ... well, yes, there are worse things. After Pearl Harbor, Congress moved to find out why Hawaii's two military commanders, General Short and Admiral Kimmel, had not anticipated the Japanese attack. But President Roosevelt pre-empted that investigation with one of his own. Short and Kimmel were broken for incompetence. The 'truth' is still obscure to this day.


Why would they teach us to fight,, and then never let us do it?

I understand why some need to create reasons to fight wars..,

Sometimes you have to get creative,,, 9/11 was the plan used successfully before.

facts wrote:

The media's weapons of mass distraction

But Pearl Harbor has been much studied. 11 September, it is plain, is never going to be investigated if Bush has anything to say about it. In January 2002, CNN reported that 'Bush personally asked Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle to limit the Congressional investigation into the events of 11 September ... The request was made at a private meeting with Congressional leaders ... Sources said Bush initiated the conversation ... He asked that only the House and Senate intelligence committees look into the potential breakdowns among federal agencies that could have allowed the terrorist attacks to occur, rather than a broader inquiry .. Tuesday's discussion followed a rare call from Vice President Dick Cheney last Friday to make the same request ...'

The excuse given, according to Daschle, was that 'resources and personnel would be taken' away from the war on terrorism in the event of a wider inquiry. So for reasons that we must never know, those 'breakdowns' are to be the goat. That they were more likely to be not break — but 'stand-downs' is not for us to pry. Certainly the one-hour 20 minute failure to put fighter planes in the air could not have been due to a breakdown throughout the entire Air Force along the East Coast. Mandatory standard operational procedure had been told to cease and desist.




Starting to see how it was made possible?



facts wrote:

Meanwhile, the media were assigned their familiar task of inciting public opinion against bin Laden, still not the proven mastermind. These media blitzes often resemble the magicians classic gesture of distraction: as you watch the rippling bright colours of his silk handkerchief in one hand, he is planting the rabbit in your pocket with the other. We were quickly assured that Osama's enormous family with its enormous wealth had broken with him, as had the royal family of his native Saudi Arabia. The CIA swore, hand on heart, that Osama had not worked for them in the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Finally, the rumour that Bush family had in any way profited by its long involvement with the bin Laden family was — what else? — simply partisan bad taste.




The truth has always been there,, but who would dare investigate?

facts wrote:

But Bush Jr's involvement goes back at least to 1979 when his first failed attempt to become a player in the big Texas oil league brought him together with one James Bath of Houston, a family friend, who gave Bush Jr. $50,000 for a 5 per cent stake in Bush's firm Arbusto Energy. At this time, according to Wayne Madsen ('In These Times', Institute for Public Affairs No. 25), Bath was 'the sole US business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden... In a statement issued shortly after the 11 September attacks, the White House vehemently denied the connection, insisting that Bath invested his own money, not Salem bin Laden's, in Arbusto. In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests ... after several reincarnations, Arbusto emerged in 1986 as Harken Energy Corporation.'




Jester,,, Have you ever heard such krap?

facts wrote:

Behind the Junior Bush is the senior Bush, gainfully employed by the Carlyle Group which has ownership in at least 164 companies worldwide, inspiring admiration in that staunch friend to the wealthy, the Wall Street Journal, which noted, as early as 27 September 2001, 'If the US boosts defence spending in its quest to stop Osama bin Laden's alleged terrorist activities, there may be one unexpected beneficiary: bin Laden's family ... is an investor in a fund established by Carlyle Group, a well-connected Washington merchant bank specialising in buyouts of defence and aerospace companies ... Osama is one of more than 50 children of Mohammed bin Laden, who built the family's $5 billion business.'




Follow the money!

fact wrote:

But Bush pere et fils, in pursuit of wealth and office, are beyond shame or, one cannot help but think, good sense. There is a suggestion that they are blocking investigation of the bin Laden connection with terrorism. Agent France Press reported on 4 November 2001: 'FBI agents probing relatives of Saudi-born terror suspect Osama ... were told to back off soon after George W. Bush became president ...' According to BBC TV's Newsnight (6 Nov 2001), '... just days after the hijackers took off from Boston aiming for the Twin Towers, a special charter flight out of the same airport whisked 11 members of Osama's family off to Saudi Arabia. That did not concern the White House, whose official line is that the bin Ladens are above suspicion.' 'Above the Law' (Green Press, 14 February 2002) sums up: 'We had what looked like the biggest failure of the intelligence community since Pearl Harbor but what we are learning now is it wasn't a failure, it was a directive.' True? False? Bush Jr will be under oath during the impeachment interrogation. Will we hear 'What is a directive? What is is?'




There will be no impeachment,, thx to who?

facts wrote:

Although the US had, for some years, fingered Osama as a mastermind terrorist, no serious attempt had been made pre-9/11 to 'bring him to justice dead or alive, innocent or guilty', as Texan law of the jungle requires. Clinton's plan to act was given to Condeleezza Rice by Sandy Berger, you will recall, but she says she does not.

As far back as March 1996 when Osama was in Sudan, Major General Elfatih Erwa, Sudanese Minister for Defence, offered to extradite him. According to the Washington Post (3 October 2001), 'Erwa said he would happily keep close watch on bin Laden for the United States. But if that would not suffice, the government was prepared to place him in custody and hand him over ... [US officials] said, "just ask him to leave the country. Just don't let him go to Somalia", where he had once been given credit for the successful al-Qaeda attack on American forces that in '93 that killed 18 Rangers.' Erwa said in an interview, 'We said he will go to Afghanistan, and they [US officials] said, "Let him."'




Let him!!?

facts wrote:

In 1996 Sudan expelled Osama and 3,000 of his associates. Two years later the Clinton administration, in the great American tradition of never having to say thank you for Sudan's offer to hand over Osama, proceeded to missile-attack Sudan's al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory on the grounds that Sudan was harboring bin Laden terrorists who were making chemical and biological weapons when the factory was simply making vaccines for the UN.

Four years later, John O'Neill, a much admired FBI agent, complained in the Irish Times a month before the attacks, 'The US State Department — and behind it the oil lobby who make up President Bush's entourage — blocked attempts to prove bin Laden's guilt. The US ambassador to Yemen forbade O'Neill (and his FBI team) ... from entering Yemen in August 2001. O'Neill resigned in frustration and took on a new job as head of security at the World Trade Centre. He died in the 11 September attack.' Obviously, Osama has enjoyed bipartisan American support since his enlistment in the CIA's war to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan. But by 9/11 there was no Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, indeed there was no Soviet Union.




Double Agent? Our political leaders have kept him safe for good reasons,, I suppose..

facts wrote:

A world made safe for peace and pipelines

I watched Bush and Cheney on CNN when the Axis of Evil speech was given and the 'long war' proclaimed. Iraq, Iran and North Korea were fingered as enemies to be clobbered because they might or might not be harbouring terrorists who might or might not destroy us in the night. So we must strike first whenever it pleases us. Thus, we declared 'war on terrorism' — an abstract noun which cannot be a war at all as you need a country for that. Of course, there was innocent Afghanistan, which was levelled from a great height, but then what's collateral damage — like an entire country — when you're targeting the personification of all evil according to Time and the NY Times and the networks?

As it proved, the conquest of Afghanistan had nothing to do with Osama. He was simply a pretext for replacing the Taliban with a relatively stable government that would allow Union Oil of California to lay its pipeline for the profit of, among others, the Cheney-Bush junta.




The American people haven't got a clue,,, do they?

facts wrote:

Background? All right. The headquarters of Unocal are, as might be expected, in Texas. In December 1997, Taliban representatives were invited to Sugarland, Texas. At that time, Unocal had already begun training Afghan men in pipeline construction, with US government approval. BBC News, (4 December 1997): 'A spokesman for the company Unocal said the Taliban were expected to spend several days at the company's [Texas] headquarters ... a BBC regional correspondent says the proposal to build a pipeline across Afghanistan is part of an international scramble to profit from developing the rich energy resources of the Caspian Sea.' The Inter Press Service (IPS) reported: 'some Western businesses are warming up to the Taliban despite the movement's institutionalisation of terror, massacres, abductions and impoverishment.' CNN (6 October 1996): 'The United States wants good ties [with the Taliban] but can't openly seek them while women are being oppressed.'

The Taliban, rather better organised than rumoured, hired for PR one Leila Helms, a niece of Richard Helms, former director of the CIA. In October 1996, the Frankfurter Rundschau reported that Unocal 'has been given the go-ahead from the new holders of power in Kabul to build a pipeline from Turkmenistan via Afghanistan to Pakistan ..' This was a real coup for Unocal as well as other candidates for pipelines, including Condoleezza's old employer Chevron. Although the Taliban was already notorious for its imaginative crimes against the human race, the Wall Street Journal, scenting big bucks, fearlessly announced: 'Like them or not, the Taliban are the players most capable of achieving peace in Afghanistan at this moment in history.' The NY Times (26 May 1997) leapt aboard the pipeline juggernaut. 'The Clinton administration has taken the view that a Taliban victory would act as counterweight to Iran ... and would offer the possibility of new trade routes that could weaken Russian and Iranian influence in the region.'




This is why I believe the Taliban were as naive as the American people are now about 9/11,, in that they are about to lose what they have just aquired,, befriending the Saudi Bin Laden,, who is about to make a deal,, with the Devil..

facts wrote:

But by 1999, it was clear that the Taliban could not provide the security we would need to protect our fragile pipelines. The arrival of Osama as warrior for Allah on the scene refocused, as it were, the bidding. New alliances were now being made. The Bush administration soon buys the idea of an invasion of Afghanistan, Frederick Starr, head of the Central Asia Institute at Johns Hopkins University, wrote in the Washington Post (19 December 2000): 'The US has quietly begun to align itself with those in the Russian government calling for military action against Afghanistan and has toyed with the idea of a new raid to wipe out bin Laden.'

Although with much fanfare we went forth to wreak our vengeance on the crazed sadistic religious zealot who slaughtered 3,000 American citizens, once that 'war' was under way, Osama was dropped as irrelevant and so we are back to the Unocal pipeline, now a go-project. In the light of what we know today, it is unlikely that the junta was ever going to capture Osama alive: he has tales to tell. One of Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's best numbers now is: 'Where is he? Somewhere? Here? There? Somewhere? Who knows?' And we get his best twinkle. He must also be delighted — and amazed — that the media have bought the absurd story that Osama, if alive, would still be in Afghanistan, underground, waiting to be flushed out instead of in a comfortable mansion in Osama-loving Jakarta, 2,000 miles to the East and easily accessible by Flying Carpet One.




The picture is still adjusting focus,,can anyone not see as yet,,

WHO IS THE DEVIL?

facts wrote:

Many commentators of a certain age have noted how Hitlerian our junta(Bush/Cheney) sounds as it threatens first one country for harbouring terrorists and then another. It is true that Hitler liked to pretend to be the injured — or threatened — party before he struck. But he had many great predecessors not least Imperial Rome. Stephen Gowan's War in Afghanistan: A $28 Billion Racket quotes Joseph Schumpeter who, 'in 1919, described ancient Rome in a way that sounds eerily like the United States in 2001: "There was no corner of the known world where some interest was not alleged to be in danger or under actual attack. If the interests were not Roman, they were those of Rome's allies; and if Rome had no allies, the allies would be invented ... The fight was always invested with an aura of legality. Rome was always being attacked by evil-minded neighbours."' We have only outdone the Romans in turning metaphors such as the war on terrorism, or poverty, or Aids into actual wars on targets we appear, often, to pick at random in order to maintain turbulence in foreign lands.




Has it always been this way,,Jester?

facts wrote:

As of 1 August 2002, trial balloons were going up all over Washington DC to get world opinion used to the idea that 'Bush of Afghanistan' had gained a title as mighty as his father's 'Bush of the Persian Gulf' and Junior was now eager to add Iraq-Babylon to his diadem. These various balloons fell upon Europe and the Arab world like so many lead weights. But something new has been added since the classic Roman Hitlerian mantra, 'they are threatening us, we must attack first'. Now everything is more of less out in the open. The International Herald Tribune wrote in August 2002: 'The leaks began in earnest on 5 July, when the New York Times described a tentative Pentagon plan that it said called for an invasion by a US force of up to 250,000 that would attack Iraq from the north, south and west. On 10 July, the Times said that Jordan might be used as a base for the invasion. The Washington Post reported, 28 July, that "many senior US military officers contend that Saddam Hussein poses no immediate threat ..."' And the status quo should be maintained. Incidentally, this is the sort of debate that the founding fathers intended the Congress, not military bureaucrats, to conduct in the name of we the people. But that sort of debate has, for a long time, been denied us.

One refreshing note is now being struck in a fashion unthinkable in imperial Rome: the cheerful admission that we habitually resort to provocation. The Tribune continues: 'Donald Rumsfeld has threatened to jail anyone found to have been behind the leaks. But a retired army general, Fred Woerner, tends to see a method behind the leaks. "We may already be executing a plan," he said recently. "Are we involved in a preliminary psychological dimension of causing Iraq to do something to justify a US attack or make concessions?" Somebody knows.' That is plain.




If you've made it this far ,,Jester,,, I'm impressed...

Here are some tales you claim to not know about...

facts wrote:

But the tom-toms keep beating revenge; and the fact that most of the world is opposed to our war seems only to bring hectic roses to the cheeks of the Bush administration (Bush Snr of the Carlyle Group, Bush Jnr formerly of Harken, Cheney, formerly of Halliburton, Rice, formerly of Chevron, Rumsfeld, formerly of Occidental). If ever an administration should recuse itself in matters dealing with energy, it is the current junta. But this is unlike any administration in our history. Their hearts are plainly elsewhere, making money, far from our mock Roman temples, while we, alas, are left only with their heads, dreaming of war, preferably against weak peripheral states.

Mohammed Heikal is a brilliant Egyptian journalist-observer, and sometime Foreign Minister. On 10 October 2001, he said to the Guardian: 'Bin Laden does not have the capabilities for an operation of this magnitude. When I hear Bush talking about al-Qaeda as if it were Nazi Germany or the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I laugh because I know what is there. Bin Laden has been under surveillance for years: every telephone call was monitored and al-Qaeda has been penetrated by US intelligence, Pakistani intelligence, Saudi intelligence, Egyptian intelligence. They could not have kept secret an operation that required such a degree of organisation and sophistication.




It is a scam,,this war on terror,, we need to know for sure tho,, don't we?

facts wrote: The former president of Germany's domestic intelligence service, Eckhardt Werthebach (American Free Press, 4 December 2001) spells it out. The 9/11 attacks required 'years of planning' while their scale indicates that they were a product of 'state-organised actions'. There it is. Perhaps, after all, Bush Jnr was right to call it a war. But which state attacked us?

Will the suspects please line up. Saudi Arabia? 'No, no. Why we are paying you $50 million a year for training the royal bodyguard on our own holy if arid soil. True the kingdom contains many wealthy well-educated enemies but ...' Bush Snr and Jnr exchange a knowing look. Egypt? No way. Dead broke despite US baksheesh. Syria? No funds. Iran? Too proud to bother with a parvenu state like the US. Israel? Sharon is capable of anything. But he lacks the guts and the grace of the true Kamikaze. Anyway, Sharon was not in charge when this operation began with the planting of 'sleepers' around the US flight schools 5 or 6 years ago. The United States? Elements of corporate America would undeniably prosper from a 'massive external attack' that would make it possible for us to go to war whenever the President sees fit while suspending civil liberties. (The 342 pages of the USA Patriot Act were plainly prepared before 9/11.) Bush Snr and Jnr are giggling now. Why? Because Clinton was president back then. As the former president leaves the line of suspects, he says, more in anger than in sorrow: 'When we left the White House we had a plan for an all-out war on al-Qaeda. We turned it over to this administration and they did nothing. Why?' Biting his lip, he goes. The Bushes no longer giggle. Pakistan breaks down: 'I did it! I confess! I couldn't help myself. Save me. I am an evil-doer!'




Did the Bushes know something the Clintons did not?

facts wrote:

Apparently, Pakistan did do it — or some of it. We must now go back to 1997 when 'the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA' was launched in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Central Asia specialist Ahmed Rashid wrote (Foreign Affairs, November-December 1999): 'With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan's ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war, waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals, from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and '92 ... more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghanistan jihad.' The CIA covertly trained and sponsored these warriors.



In March 1985, President Reagan issued National Security Decision Directive 166, increasing military aid while CIA specialists met with the ISI counterparts near Rawalpindi, Pakistan. Jane's Defence Weekly (14 September 2001) gives the best overview: 'The trainers were mainly from Pakistan's ISI agency who learnt their craft from American Green Beret commandos and Navy Seals in various US training establishments.' This explains the reluctance of the administration to explain why so many unqualified persons, over so long a time, got visas to visit our hospitable shores. While in Pakistan, 'mass training of Afghan [zealots] was subsequently conducted by the Pakistan army under the supervision of the elite Special Services ... In 1988, with US knowledge, bin Laden created al-Qaeda (The Base); a conglomerate of quasi-independent Islamic terrorist cells spread across 26 or so countries. Washington turned a blind eye to al-Qaeda.'




What else could they do?

facts wrote:

When Mohamed Atta's plane struck the World Trade Centre's North Tower, George W. Bush and the child at the Florida elementary school were discussing her goat. By coincidence, our word 'tragedy' comes from the Greek: for 'goat' tragos plus oide for 'song'. 'Goat-song'. It is highly suitable that this lament, sung in ancient satyr plays, should have been heard again at the exact moment when we were struck by fire from heaven, and a tragedy whose end is nowhere in sight began for us.




Denying their involvement is the nicest thing Americans have given the Bush family.. The understanding of freefalling buildings caused by jet fuel only,, is something a little more moronic,,don't you think?

America had better wake up,, knowing your enemy is important in the quest of defeating them,, I can only hope that the truth surfaces after the next election,, but I am guessing most will be living high on the hog in exile,, and I feel for all those that never thought to question,,, they will be hurt,, the most..

I think it would make for a good read,, or a good flick,, if nothing else..

WWII was survived after Pearl Harbor,, I'm sure we will as well..

We will be able to tell our grand children stories about living thru 9/11,, can you imagine living in Germany during the holacaust? as a christian? Wonder what questions were circling then,, I wonder if anyone even wondered what thbey were doing to all those JEWS in captivity,, WOW>>

Even if it were all true,, there is nothing anyone could do about it,, except hope it ends..

I guess that's the brilliance of 9/11,, don't you think?



Do the Math,,,,,,,,,,,,People..

NO REASON TO GET EXCITED,,THE THIEF,, HE KINDLY SPOKE
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Nomad
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by Nomad »

DrJ;931054 wrote: :yh_rotfl,,,,,,,,:yh_rotfl,,,,,,,,,,:yh_rotfl



I wish I was as nieve,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,really!



I would act like I believe that as well,, but then there's,,,



Building 7,,,,,,,,,,,,Building 7,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Building 7



I've seen the charges misplaced,, the structure lose 30 ft,,,drop 30 ft,,

and remain standing,,, I guess some would have believed anything they said,,

no matter how silly it was,,



I guess its just easier for some to believe,,



The truth will come...


I feel sorry for you. It must be maddening to have a tortured mind.

Ive teetered on the edge of paranoia before and Ive seen it full blown in another.

Luckily I managed to get it under control by recognizing the signs.

The ones that dont really go off the deep end. Of course paranoids dont believe theyre ill, theyre convinced preposterous thoughts are as right as rain.

If for nothing other than kicks you should do some research on the paranoid mind.

Ive provided some reading material for you.

Good luck.

http://www.hoptechno.com/paranoia.htm
I AM AWESOME MAN
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Accountable
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by Accountable »

DrJ;931957 wrote: The Devil will tell you yada yada yada *big snip*





"Facts" can be cited. Do you have links for your tome?
DrJ
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

Accountable;932149 wrote:

"Facts" can be cited. Do you have links for your tome?


That's about whats going to have to happen for most of the followers of the pied piper,,, after all if you did any of your own findings,, if you did find anything that raised any doubt in what you have apparently accepted,, you would explain them away as leftist views,, or politically incorrect...



Theres no possible way anyone of your heros would have any reason to hide their true agendas,,, is there? It amazes me how people can be so easily duped and fight every piece of info that screams the truth at them..

Reminds me of the story of the French who were gathered together talking about how the Germans were too honorable to invade,, the french-man swearing he knew for sure,,with his back to the window,, and the rest of the group was seeing tanks thru the window coming up the road with funny shaped x's on them.

I can only hope you people who have accepted this fabricated truth that muslims were the only bad guys in this fiasco,,,called 9/11,, are being paid by the RNC,, or some corporate entity to play the blind being led by the not so blind..

The light will shine soon,,, I'm sure of it...

I learned something in my second relationship about thinking everyone was like me,,, as I judged everyone thru my life,,,

C'mon NOMAD,,, I'm glad you got a handle on it,,, but assuming everyone is suffering because of the spinning of truth is a mistake,, but I understand where your coming from,,, I'm just sick of the moronic right wing views that throw stones merely to hide their own...

If I had my way,, the people without voice would rise up, a rid this country of anyone who shares the far right,, dog eat dog world view,, that has just about crippled this country,,, I mean throw them out of any kind of leadership role,,, and if the far left get to obnoxious I would work toward them the same..

9/11 is merely one event,,, which most of us are still waiting for the REST OF THE STORY<<< to come to light...
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

It's sad to see how quickly some people are willing to believe the absolute worst about the elected leaders of their own nation (assuming you're a US citizen). How much checking have you done on your sources to be sure they're not spinning their own "truth"? How can you be sure their agendas are pure?



Doesn't it just come down to this society is not going the way you personally want it, and you've found an easy explanation - a single scapegoat responsible for all this world's ills?
DrJ
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Post by DrJ »

Accountable;932245 wrote: It's sad to see how quickly some people are willing to believe the absolute worst about the elected leaders of their own nation (assuming you're a US citizen). How much checking have you done on your sources to be sure they're not spinning their own "truth"? How can you be sure their agendas are pure?



Doesn't it just come down to this society is not going the way you personally want it, and you've found an easy explanation - a single scapegoat responsible for all this world's ills?


This is 07,,acc,,,, 9/11/01 was a while back,, do you think I believed anything bad about anyone but the far right,,Muslims,,during those days?

No sir,, I was as naive as you seem to be now,, the way they covered it all up is what started me wondering,, I know they should have investigated a whole lot more than they did,, but for a time I was on the,, "Kill 'em all" bandwagon..

Ya know,, its not the crime that gets people caught,, its the cover up that points at those who are the most guilty,, the ones who seem to have the most to hide..

The truth of it all is that it doesn't matter what the American people think,,

there's things done in our name everyday we would probably cringe if we knew.

Following blindly is just not how I roll,, ol buddy..

The "single scapegoat" strategy is exactly what they've done,, are you so blind you can't see that?

I know you are smarter than that ,,,Teach..

Just think about what you have just wrote to me about how your seeing me blaming one,,, and look at what the perception was thrown at the American People,,, OBL ,, was their scapegoat,,, their Lee Harvey,,, if you will..

I believe he had assistance,, and wasn't even close to being able to compl;ete this plan of attack without inside help.. Just like Saddam and his WMD's which we gave him... Which by the way,, he was smart enough to get rid of,,,makin' them all look like fools.. Ya know the drill,, the mushroom cloud,, we're in trouble,, be afraid,, be afraid,,, I will protect you nonsense..

Society not goin' my way? Are you serious,, I guess you have to know Ironworkers to get the true silliness of that statement,,, your alright,,ACC..

Maybe I am a little paranoid,, but just about corporate think tanks trying to figure out laws they can write to get into my pension and annuity,,, and taking whats left of my health insurance...

I will continue to hunt for links in this thread that's both pro and con,,, but if people truly do the math on this issue they will start seeing cracks in the official story,,,,the cover up is best sign so far,, besides three freefallin' buildings caused by jet fuel only,, I bet its got the CEO's of the demo companys smackin' their foreheads when they think of all the money they could have saved, when they think of all the money they spent blowin up buildings with expensive cutting charges,,,,wow.. what a revelation..

I can't wait to see the first demo job,, they try,, by saturating the upper middle floors with Gas,,, and leaving a trail for the guy thats got to light the match,, I want that job.. Maybe we can get the Bush family to come down and light it,, proving wants and for all,,, it works.... I promise I will hold my breath till that day!!
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

So you haven't checked those you've chosen to believe. Okay. I'll leave you to it then. I'm tired.
DrJ
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Post by DrJ »

Accountable;932687 wrote: So you haven't checked those you've chosen to believe. Okay. I'll leave you to it then. I'm tired.


Here's the site your looking for//

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... ge=4#steel

The World Trade Center

The collapse of both World Trade Center towers — and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later — initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes. That explanation hasn't swayed conspiracy theorists, who contend that all three buildings were wired with explosives in advance and razed in a series of controlled demolitions.



Widespread Damage

Claim: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."

FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel — and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.

facts wrote:

"Melted" Steel

Claim: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."



Puffs Of Dust

Claim: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."

Violent Collapse: Pancaking floors — not controlled demolition — expel debris and smoke out South Tower windows. (Photograph by AP/Wide World Photos)

FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air — along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse — was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."


Building 7

is my stopper,,, I am still hunting..
Daniyal
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Post by Daniyal »

DrJ;933082 wrote: Here's the site your looking for//

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... ge=4#steel

The World Trade Center

The collapse of both World Trade Center towers — and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later — initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes. That explanation hasn't swayed conspiracy theorists, who contend that all three buildings were wired with explosives in advance and razed in a series of controlled demolitions.



Widespread Damage

Claim: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."

FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel — and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.



Building 7

is my stopper,,, I am still hunting..




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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;931164 wrote: So what you're saying is that because one part of this whole deal doesn't make immediate sense in your limited experience, then nothing that the gov't says can possibly true. Since the explanation about Bldg 7 doesn't fit your paradigm, then radical muslims could not possibly have hijacked those aircraft. The guys that (obviously, in your mind) lied about Bldg 7 by default have made up every detail out of whole cloth and none of it is true?

ETA: Actually I'm relieved because that means that they didn't really kill over 3000 people. :yh_sweat


Why take the conclusion to an extreme that has not been suggested?

If a single point of the official line is proven to be false in a way that cannot be accidental then the whole of the official explanation is in doubt.

Calling doubt on that one point does not, and never has, prove that every other point is not possibly correct and nobody has claimed that is does.

Fight the claims made - not those you wish had been made 'cos they're easy to answer :-)
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Post by DrJ »

Bryn Mawr;933629 wrote: Why take the conclusion to an extreme that has not been suggested?

If a single point of the official line is proven to be false in a way that cannot be accidental then the whole of the official explanation is in doubt.

Calling doubt on that one point does not, and never has, prove that every other point is not possibly correct and nobody has claimed that is does.

Fight the claims made - not those you wish had been made 'cos they're easy to answer :-)


Thx for pointing this out,, the strategy is to take the discussion to silly-ville and people who come in to read,,, get that impression,, I see this move in many threads,, when one runs out of ideas,, or things to say..

Trying to put me into a category,,, as peddler of nutso,, or some other kind of insanity,, I'm used to it,,, with ACC...

Everyone who expresses ideas,, are respected in this thread,, pro or con..

The idea of the cell phones not being operatable at 30,000 ft is a prime example of what your talking about there,,, because if it's true these calls couldn't of possibly been made,, it kills a lot of the story told,, to Americans,, but does not change the outcome of 3000 dead,,

I'm an American,, 9/11 effected my soul,, I want to know for sure what happen, I need to know,, some are happy with the mute button that has been put on the American media about this issue,, I mean there is nothing ever even brought up about 9/11,, I feel like the media has been ordered --9/11-off limits..

OBL walks free,,, we are told he lives in pakistan,, why aren't we there?

When he was in Afghanistan there was no hesitation,, no reason on earth that would keep us out of there,,, What's changed?

It's just one thing among others that's made me wonder about the legitamacy of

of the story told.. I have to know,, and discussing the possibilities is my way of clearing what doubt many seem to have.. True or untrue...
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Post by DrJ »

Jester;933654 wrote: Hers a link here, and they dont have to be supersonic, just line of sight analog cell phones, the distance Not speed is what inables some cell calles to get through even at high altitudes.

This will just whet yer appetite, I have more coming...

http://answers.google.com/answers/main? ... &id=173057


That was good Jester,, did you get this part in that Q&A discussion,,,

fact wrote:

It's interesting at least to know that the researcher didn't easily

find evidence of high-altitude cell calls other than the 9-11 case -

neither could I, nor could I get my own phone to work at altitude,

which of course could be a fluke.

I would have thought that people agitating to allow cell usage on

planes would have experimented to see exactly how useful it would be.

Seems not?

Finally, I would have thought that there must be thousands of telecom

engineers who could give a direct and categorical technical answer to

this question - this is what I really sought.

I assumed Dewdney's allegation would be trivially debunked, and that

there must be technically authoritative web pages doing so. Seems

not?




Don't this observation sound funny,,, to be honest I never even thought to question cell phone conversations although I remember reading something about them in some of the 9/11truthers,,,

This person is trying to find out if tgheir cell works from a flying plane and can't find nothing but 9/11 facts,, it just sounds a little yahoo chinese,, to me..:wah:

Wouldn't that be something to find out our internet is being limited just as the search engines in china are being controled.. Just a thought..

I know,, I know,,, I could find something negative in anything,,:lips:

But that site is the kind of stuff we should be looking for,, Good job..

I want to be proven wrong,,,really..
DrJ
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Post by DrJ »

Jester;933687 wrote: hehehe look again bud and I have so much more... Just give me a few days...:wah:


I am still reading it,,, and if I find other things like it,, I will post it..

I just found that part interesting,,and worth mentioning..

because its a scary thought to think our "free" internet might have limits..

that's a whole nother thread..:-2
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spot
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Post by spot »

Jester;933687 wrote: hehehe look again bud and I have so much more... Just give me a few days...:wah:


And it needs to be professional and signed, not an anonymous posting on answers.com! Come on, I'm giving you sworn FBI statements and official raw Flight Recorder read-outs.
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DrJ
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Post by DrJ »

Here's some opinions from sources you can judge for yourself ,,Acc

if they may or may not have agendas,,or be credible..

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera ... s__mil.htm

Here is a sample ,,, of a few Military people who question the official story,, and possible cover up...

Official Account of 9/11: “Impossible”, “A Bunch of Hogwash”, “Total B.S.”, “Ludicrous”, “A Well-Organized Cover-up”, “A White-Washed Farce”

fact wrote:

January 14, 2008 – Twenty-five former U.S. military officers have severely criticized the official account of 9/11 and called for a new investigation. They include former commander of U.S. Army Intelligence, Major General Albert Stubblebine, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Col. Ronald D. Ray, two former staff members of the Director of the National Security Agency; Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, PhD, and Major John M. Newman, PhD, and many others. They are among the rapidly growing number of military and intelligence service veterans, scientists, engineers, and architects challenging the government’s story. The officers’ statements appear below, listed alphabetically.




I am showing this because I know there are many who feel as I do,, and are baffled at the Govt. responses to some of these funny facts being protrayed as truth..

fact wrote:

Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD “A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible,” said Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret). [1] With doctoral degrees in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Col. Bowman served as Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter.

“There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up,” continued Col. Bowman. “Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible. Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.”

Regarding the failure of NORAD to intercept the four hijacked planes on 9/11, Col. Bowman said, “I'm an old interceptor pilot. I know the drill. I've done it. I know how long it takes. I know the rules. … Critics of the government story on 9/11 have said: ‘Well, they knew about this, and they did nothing’. That's not true. If our government had done nothing that day and let normal procedure be followed, those planes, wherever they were, would have been intercepted, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive.” [2]

During his 22-year Air Force career, Col. Bowman also served as the Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. He also flew over 100 combat missions in Viet Nam as a fighter pilot.


I am reading this for the first time today,,, and am relieved to here I am not the only one who thinks it funny,, no one is allowed to discuss this in the media.

facts wrote:

Lt. Jeff Dahlstrom Former U.S. Air Force pilot Lt. Jeff Dahlstrom wrote in a 2007 statement to this author, “When 9/11 occurred I bought the entire government and mainstream media story line. I was a lifelong conservative Republican that voted for Bush/Cheney, twice. Curiosity about JFK’s death, after a late night TV re-run of Oliver Stone’s movie, got me started researching and digging for the truth about his assassins.

“My research led me to a much more important and timely question: the mystery of what really did happen on 9/11. Everything that seemed real, turned out to be false. The US government and the news media, once again, were lying to the world about the real terrorists and the public murder of 2,972 innocents on 9/11.

“The ‘Patriot Act’ was actually written prior to 9/11 with the intention of destroying the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. It was passed by Congress, based upon the government's myth of 9/11, which was in reality a staged hoax. 9/11 was scripted and executed by rogue elements of the military, FAA, intelligence, and private contractors working for the US government.

“In addition to severely curtailing fundamental rights of Americans, the 9/11 crime was then used by this administration, the one I originally voted for and supported, to justify waging two preemptive wars (and most likely a third war), killing over 4,500 American soldiers, and killing over one million innocent Afghan and Iraqi people.

“It was all premeditated. Treason, a false flag military operation, and betrayal of the trust of the American people were committed on 9/11 by the highest levels of the US government and not one person responsible for the crimes, or the cover-up, has been held accountable for the last six years.

“After reading fifteen well-researched books, studying eight or nine DVD documentaries, and devoting months of personal research and investigation, I have arrived at one ultimate conclusion: The American government and the US Constitution have been hijacked and subverted by a group of criminals that today are the real terrorists. They are in control of the US government and they have all violated their oaths of office and committed treason against their own citizens.”


SHOCKING!!!

[quote=facts]

Capt. Daniel Davis Capt. Daniel Davis is a former U.S. Army Air Defense Officer and NORAD Tac Director. After his military service, Capt. Davis served for 15 years as a Senior Manager at General Electric Turbine (jet) Engine Division and then devoted an additional 15 years as founder and CEO of Turbine Technology Services Corp., a turbine (jet engine) services and maintenance company.

In a statement to this author, Capt. Davis wrote, “As a former General Electric Turbine engineering specialist and manager and then CEO of a turbine engineering company, I can guarantee that none of the high tech, high temperature alloy engines on any of the four planes that crashed on 9/11 would be completely destroyed, burned, shattered or melted in any crash or fire. Wrecked, yes, but not destroyed. Where are all of those engines, particularly at the Pentagon? If jet powered aircraft crashed on 9/11, those engines, plus wings and tail assembly, would be there.”

Decorated with the Bronze Star and the Soldiers Medal for bravery under fire and the Purple Heart for injuries sustained in Viet Nam, Capt. Davis also served in the Army Air Defense Command as Nike Missile Battery Control Officer for the Chicago-Milwaukee Defense Area.

Capt. Davis continued, “Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control. No way! With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could!

“Finally, going over the hill and highway and crashing into the Pentagon right at the wall/ground interface is difficult for even a small slow single engine airplane and no way for a 757. Maybe the best pilot in the world could accomplish that but not these unskilled ‘terrorists’. Attempts to obscure facts by calling them a ‘Conspiracy Theory’ does not change the truth. It seems, ‘Something is rotten in the State’.”

SHOCKING!!

[quote=facts]

Major Jon I. Fox is a former U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot and a retired commercial airline pilot for Continental Airlines with a 35-year commercial aviation career. In 2007, in support of the Architects and Engineers[3] petition to reinvestigate 9/11, he wrote, “On hearing the military (NORAD/NEAD) excuses for no intercepts on 9/11/2001, I knew from personal experience that they were lying. I then began re-checking other evidence and found mostly more lies from the ‘official spokesmen’. Jet fuel fires at atmospheric pressure do not get hot enough to weaken steel. Structures do not collapse through themselves in free fall time with only gravity as the powering force.” [4]

Commander Ralph Kolstad Retired U.S. Navy ‘Top Gun’ pilot Commander Ralph Kolstad started questioning the official account of 9/11 within days of the event. In a statement to this author, he wrote, “It just didn’t make any sense to me,” he said. And now six years after 9/11 he says, “When one starts using his own mind, and not what one was told, there is very little to believe in the official story.” [5]

Commander Kolstad was a top-rated fighter pilot during his 20-year Navy career. Early in his career, he was accorded the honor of being selected to participate in the Navy’s ‘Top Gun’ air combat school, officially known as the U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School. The Tom Cruise movie “Top Gun” reflects the experience of the young Navy pilots at the school. Eleven years later, Commander Kolstad was further honored by being selected to become a ‘Top Gun’ adversary instructor.

Commander Kolstad had a second career after his 20 years of Navy active and reserve service and served as a commercial airline pilot for 27 years, flying for American Airlines and other domestic and international careers. He flew Boeing 727, 757 and 767, McDonnell Douglas MD-80, and Fokker F-100 airliners. He has flown a total of over 23,000 hours in his career.

Commander Kolstad is especially critical of the account of American Airlines Flight 77 that allegedly crashed into the Pentagon. He says, “At the Pentagon, the pilot of the Boeing 757 did quite a feat of flying. I have 6,000 hours of flight time in Boeing 757’s and 767’s and I could not have flown it the way the flight path was described.”

Commander Kolstad adds, “I was also a Navy fighter pilot and Air Combat Instructor and have experience flying low altitude, high speed aircraft. I could not have done what these beginners did. Something stinks to high heaven!”

He points to the physical evidence at the Pentagon impact site and asks in exasperation, “Where is the damage to the wall of the Pentagon from the wings? Where are the big pieces that always break away in an accident? Where is all the luggage? Where are the miles and miles of wire, cable, and lines that are part and parcel of any large aircraft? Where are the steel engine parts? Where is the steel landing gear? Where is the tail section that would have broken into large pieces?”

But no major element of the official account of 9/11 is spared from Commander Kolstad’s criticism. Regarding the alleged impact site of United Airlines Flight 93 near Shanksville, PA, he asks, “Where is any of the wreckage? Of all the pictures I have seen, there is only a hole! Where is any piece of a crashed airplane? Why was the area cordoned off, and no inspection allowed by the normal accident personnel? Where is any evidence at all?”

Commander Kolstad also questions many aspects of the attack on the World Trade Center. “How could a steel and concrete building collapse after being hit by a Boeing 767? Didn’t the engineers design it to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707, approximately the same size and weight of the 767? The evidence just doesn’t add up.”

“Why did the second building collapse before the first one, which had been burning for 20 minutes longer after a direct hit, especially when the second one hit was just a glancing blow? If the fire was so hot, then why were people looking out the windows [6] and in the destroyed areas? Why have so many members of the New York Fire Department reported seeing or hearing many ‘explosions’ before the buildings collapsed?”

Commander Kolstad summarized his frustration with the investigation and disbelief of the official account of 9/11, “If one were to act as an accident investigator, one would look at the evidence, and then construct a plausible scenario as to what led to the accident. In this case, we were told the story and then the evidence was built to support the story. What happened to any intelligent investigation? Every question leads to another question that has not been answered by anyone in authority. This is just the beginning as to why I don’t believe the official ‘story’ and why I want the truth to be told.”

Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski A Pentagon eye-witness and a former member of the staff of the Director of the National Security Agency, Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret), is a severe critic of the official account of 9/11. A contributing author to the 2006 book 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, she wrote, “I believe the [9/11] Commission failed to deeply examine the topic at hand, failed to apply scientific rigor to its assessment of events leading up to and including 9/11, failed to produce a believable and unbiased summary of what happened, failed to fully examine why it happened, and even failed to include a set of unanswered questions for future research.”

She continued, “It is as a scientist that I have the most trouble with the official government conspiracy theory, mainly because it does not satisfy the rules of probability or physics. The collapses of the World Trade Center buildings clearly violate the laws of probability and physics.”

Col. Kwiatkowski was working in the Pentagon on 9/11 in her capacity as Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense when Flight 77 allegedly hit the Pentagon. She wrote, “There was a dearth of visible debris on the relatively unmarked lawn, where I stood only minutes after the impact. Beyond this strange absence of airliner debris, there was no sign of the kind of damage to the Pentagon structure one would expect from the impact of a large airliner. This visible evidence or lack thereof may also have been apparent to the Secretary of Defense [Donald Rumsfeld], who in an unfortunate slip of the tongue referred to the aircraft that slammed into the Pentagon as a ‘missile.’ [7] [Secretary Rumsfeld also publicly referred to Flight 93 as the plane that was shot down over Pennsylvania.[8] ]

“I saw nothing of significance at the point of impact - no airplane metal or cargo debris was blowing on the lawn in front of the damaged building as smoke billowed from within the Pentagon. ... [A]ll of us staring at the Pentagon that morning were indeed looking for such debris, but what we expected to see was not evident.

“The same is true with regard to the kind of damage we expected. ... But I did not see this kind of damage. Rather, the facade had a rather small hole, no larger than 20 feet in diameter. Although this facade later collapsed, it remained standing for 30 or 40 minutes, with the roof line remaining relatively straight.

“The scene, in short, was not what I would have expected from a strike by a large jetliner. It was, however, exactly what one would expect if a missile had struck the Pentagon. ... More information is certainly needed regarding the events of 9/11 and the events leading up to that terrible day.”

The improbability of the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 is a major concern of these officers and a growing number of scientists, engineers and architects. The building was 610 feet tall, 47 stories, and would have been the tallest building in 33 states. Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11. In the 6 years since 9/11, the Federal government has failed to provide any explanation for the collapse. In addition to the failure to provide an explanation, absolutely no mention of Building 7’s collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's “full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.” [Video of the collapse can be seen at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGE ... llapse.wmv ]




I am still reading,,,this is good stuff,,

The truth will set you free!!!
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

While ya'll are running around proving your foregone conclusions, ask: why isn't this news? With the media so hostile to anything Bush touches, this would be all over reputable news. Geraldo would have done a couple of specials every year.



I'm wasting my energy.
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Post by DrJ »

Accountable;933737 wrote: While ya'll are running around proving your foregone conclusions, ask: why isn't this news? With the media so hostile to anything Bush touches, this would be all over reputable news. Geraldo would have done a couple of specials every year.



I'm wasting my energy.


That is my point buddy,,, I believe there should be a lot of shows,, about the most horrendas day in this country's history and the media is totally absent..

They don't even cover the conspiracy theories,, don't that seem funny to you?

I mean with all this info available,, you'd think the media would have jumped on it,,, I'm sure it would be worth a lot of commercial riches...

I think people would be interested in all the nutso possibilities,,wouldn't you tune in,, I mean we're here now,,, I'd watch it,, I'd probably record it,,,

What's wrong with discussing this issue in your mind?

To me,, the silence is deafening!~
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Post by spot »

Accountable;933737 wrote: While ya'll are running around proving your foregone conclusions, ask: why isn't this news? With the media so hostile to anything Bush touches, this would be all over reputable news. Geraldo would have done a couple of specials every year.
Once people decide they want something ignored it just gets ignored. For one thing, there's a concept of "yesterday's news" out there, it's a minority of programs will look at history even a year old much less seven. Digging into a story that's been deliberately made private is far too hard a job for most reporters.

A policy existed in Vietnam, for example, in which areas were denoted red (shoot it if it moves, it's communist) or white (the defended areas). The majority of South Vietnam ended up pink in which civilians were assumed to be unarmed but aiding the Viet Cong and supplying them. General Westmorland wanted the civilians in the pink areas cleared into designated white space even though this involved the farming communities leaving their land and going on welfare for the duration. The farmers didn't want to.

In 1967 Westmorland and his staff put a rogue ferret into pink space - in particular it put in the 1st Battalion (Airborne), 327th Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade (Separate), 101st Airborne Division Task Force, created by Major David Hackworth two years before to "outguerilla the guerillas" with reconnaissance and commando capabilities. Over a period of several months the platoon killed more civilians in cold blood than the My Lai massacre accounted for. The newspaper investigators don't claim that total because they're being cautious, that was me saying it.

It took thirty years for that particular story to get into a newspaper. Nobody was tried in court, nobody was embarrassed by being asked dirty questions. Career staff responsible for war crimes simply don't get admitted to.

How many times has Tiger Force been discussed on your TV screen?
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When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Post by Accountable »

There are journalists who would give their left nut to be the one to hang President Bush et al out to dry. If this was real it would be all over broadcast news. It's not.



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Post by spot »

Accountable;934158 wrote: There are journalists who would give their left nut to be the one to hang President Bush et al out to dry. If this was real it would be all over broadcast news. It's not.



I'll leave you two to your dreams.


You just walked by a very pertinent post without comment, you know.

What might also be interesting is that the papers and the prosecutors shied from it for all those years but popular culture freeze-framed it way back.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by DrJ »

Jester;933923 wrote: Doc, its cuz it aint proveable news, its bunk. Or are you also saying its a vast right wing conspiracy the likes that was against Clinton?


I am not saying right/left /middle,, all I'm saying is there are so many theories,, and I admit some are so far out there,, that even if there were something to it,,I wouldn't want to know,,, the freemason,,cult 9/11 signs,, are ridicules to me,, even Me,,Mr Paranoid,, has limits,,,

The fact that nothing is ever talkied about,, and if it happens to come up it is immediately shhh-ed,, or referred to the insane population,,College kids..

Or they're take it to the silly-ville right off the bat,, just like Acc likes to do..

I just notice the silence,, I think it would be a good idea to get these doubts out in the open so everyone can get an idea of what did,,, or did not happen that day.. or just as entertainment,, something like the history channel does with the UFO's,,,area 57,, or CIA contras,, a show of info,,of how all thoughts are not in agreement,,, what would be the harm,, to talk to these pilots that never intercepted these planes,, find out how they feel about it all..

So far all that has been allowed is the version a lot disagree with..

I'm sure there are details even the 9/11 truthers haven't come close to un covering.

I mean if it were my watch,, I'd have some deep feeling about the failure..

Maybe they want to talk,, I'm talking about the people whose job it is to tackle these type attacks..

It feels like there has been a lid put on this issue.. I know I am one of many Americans who have doubts about 9/11,,, I personally believe there should be a nationwide conversation happening that at least addresses these issues.. Just to clear things up,, theres no harm in that.

Bunk can be discussed as bunk,, what would be the harm?:sneaky:

Maybe there is something to this,,,silence,, they need to get the time gap to let certain people pass thru,,, so there is no accountability... I think Spot has hit the nail,, on its head..

I mean you have to admit,, it wouldn't be the first time,,

The only other possibility I can think of is maybe 9/11 showed a weakness in the great super powers shield,, and nobody wants to hear that..

OR,,,,Maybe if they did get out and shot 93 down,, after all they said it was headed for the White House

,, I mean because of the families,, Take the Pat Tillman incident,, that got the shine put to it,,

I'm just trying to find good reasons for the silence as well,, Have you ever heard of a passenger plane being shot down,, and do you think they would have liked admitting this to the families on 9/11..?

I have to lean towards the need for time,, moreso than anything tho..

This and a lot of other thoughts are a result of said silence,,I believe..

Not to mention the politics,, if said bad guys are of a perticular party,, the possibilities are endless until we have solid info to said questions,, it's natural to wonder,, in fact I wonder about those that avoid questions concerning the unknown facts or reasons,, think about it,, how sure are you of everthing that has been explained so far? What do you know for sure?



Could you imagine finding out some very different truths down the road,, and remember thinking what a waste of time you thought it was trying to find those certain truths...

ACC,, Jester,, believe me when I say,, this time,, I hope you all are 100% right...

I don't believe it's a waste of time either way,, I for 1,, NEED to know..

I believe Frontline has a show about it all,,, coming soon on PBS,, I hope it at least starts some kind of conversation,,, in othe media outlets,,,we'll see..

Just for the record,, I'd like to find out it was an inside job,,, but Bush had no idea it was coming,,

that Cheney and Co. had this hid from him,, and he was as much a victim as anyone else..

The Top Secret intelligence of the attack was not shared with him,, he was totally left in the dark,,

I could write this,, ideas will help my doubt about 9/11,, that's why I talk about it..
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Post by DrJ »

The Truth is coming!

As far as the cell phone question,, here is some new info,, you might find interesting,,,



For the Zacarias Moussoui trial, the government has released all its detailed evidence regarding the phone calls from the planes. The evidence is titled "Zacarias Moussaoui Prosecution Trial Exhibit number P200055," and can be partially viewed here:

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evid ... etail.html

The evidence is very revealing and detailed, and contradicts some of the assumptions previously held by 9/11 researchers. For example:

1. All of Tom Burnett's calls from UAL93 were made from airphones in the back of the plane. It had previously been reported that his calls were made from his cell phone, which caused controversy since his first two calls were made when the plane was still above 30,000 feet, at which altitude cell phone calls are difficult if not impossible.

2. All the phone calls from UAL93 were made by airphones, with the lone exception of Cee Cee Lyles' call on a cell phone at 10:57. At that time, the plane's transponder was turned on showing the plane at 7,000 feet, speed unknown.

3. The evidence exhibit shows exactly which airphone each call was made. All airphone calls from all flights were made from the rear area of the planes, where the passengers had apparently been herded.

4. Amy Sweeney's numerous calls from AAL11 were not made on an airphone as previously reported. Her calls were made on a cell phone starting at about 8:25. At this time, the plane's transponder was turned off and the altitude was unknown.

5. All the cell phone calls (UAL175 had none) were made at times when the planes' altitude was unknown, and thus could have been made when the planes were below 8,000 feet at which altitude cell phone calls are known to be possible from airplanes.

Conclusions: The argument that the phone calls are faked because cell phone calls are impossible from moving airplanes is discredited by this new evidence.

Note that the body of evidence taken from the phone calls at large DOES NOT support the government's story of 19 Arab hijackers. The phone calls indicate hijackers with knives; but they do not show the hijackers to be Arabs-- only persons who may have been impersonating Arabs. The phone calls also show evidence that the hijackers were armed with guns as well, pointing to a far more sophisticated conspiracy than the al-Qaeda operatives of the official story.



Headlined on 9/23/07:

Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report

by Alan Miller

www.opednews.com



Official Account of 9/11 a “Joke” and a “Cover-up”

September 23, 2007 – Seven CIA veterans have severely criticized the official account of 9/11 and have called for a new investigation. “I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 Report is a joke,” said Raymond McGovern, 27-year veteran of the CIA, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates during the seventies. “There are a whole bunch of unanswered questions. And the reason they’re unanswered is because this administration will not answer the questions,” he said. McGovern, who is also the founder of VIPS (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity), is one of many signers of a petition to reinvestigate 9/11.[1]



Raymond McGovern

During his 27-year CIA career, McGovern personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries of State, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials. Upon retirement in 1990, McGovern was awarded the CIA’s Intelligence Commendation Medallion and received a letter of appreciation from then President George H. W. Bush. However, McGovern returned the award[2] in 2006 in protest of the current George W. Bush Administration’s advocacy and use of torture.



In his blurb for 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out,” edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott, McGovern wrote[3]: “It has long been clear that the Bush-Cheney administration cynically exploited the attacks of 9/11 to promote its imperial designs. But the present volume confronts us with evidence for an even more disturbing conclusion: that the 9/11 attacks were themselves orchestrated by this administration precisely so they could be thus exploited. If this is true, it is not merely the case, as the Downing Street memos show, that the stated reason for attacking Iraq was a lie. It is also the case that the whole “war on terror” was based on a prior deception. This book hence confronts the American people---indeed the people of the world as a whole---with an issue second to none in importance and urgency. I give this book, which in no way can be dismissed as the ravings of ‘paranoid conspiracy theorists,’ my highest possible recommendation.”



William Christison, a 29-year CIA veteran, former National Intelligence Officer (NIO) and former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis also describes the 9/11 Commission Report as a “joke” and offers even more outspoken criticism. In a 2006 audio interview[4] he said, "We very seriously need an entirely new very high level and truly independent investigation of the events of 9/11. I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all.”



William Christison

Earlier this year, in an endorsement of David Ray Griffin’s book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Christison wrote[5], “ a strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.” And in an online essay[6] in late 2006, he wrote, “I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. … An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. … The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.”



Prior to his retirement from the CIA in 1979, Christison served as Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis, overseeing 200 analysts who collected intelligence and provided analysis on all regions and every country in the world. Prior to that, he served as one of only a handful of NIO’s in the intelligence community. NIO’s are responsible for the intelligence community efforts in a particular area and are the principal advisors to the Director of Central Intelligence. Christison was NIO for Southeast Asia, South Asia, and Africa.



Melvin Goodman, PhD, is another former senior CIA official who calls the 9/11 Commission Report a “coverup” and who signed the petition to reinvestigate 9/11.[7] Goodman was the Division Chief of the CIA’s Office of Soviet Affairs and served as Senior Analyst from 1966 - 1990. He also served as Professor of International Security at the National War College from 1986 - 2004.



Melvin Goodman, PhD

In testimony before a 2005 Congressional briefing on the 9/11 Commission Report[8], Goodman said, “I want to talk about the [9/11] Commission itself, about the flawed process of the Commission and finally about the conflict of interest within the Commission that is extremely important to understand the failure of the Commission. … The final report is ultimately a coverup. I don't know how else to describe it." Goodman is currently Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and Adjunct Professor of Government at Johns Hopkins University.

Robert Baer is another well known CIA veteran who has questioned the official account of 9/11. A 21-year CIA veteran and specialist in the Middle East, Baer was awarded the Career Intelligence Medal upon his retirement in 1997. After retirement, he wrote two best-selling non-fiction books about the CIA, See No Evil and Sleeping with the Devil, the former of which was the basis for the Academy Award-winning movie Syriana, starring George Clooney. Baer was also the writer and on-camera commentator for the Emmy Award-nominated documentary Cult of the Suicide Bomber.



Robert Baer

Baer has repeatedly questioned whether al-Qaida could have accomplished 9/11 alone. The 9/11 Commission Report categorically found al-Qaida to be entirely responsible for 9/11, stating, "Similarly, we have seen no evidence that any foreign government -- or government official -- supplied any funding." However, this 9/11 Commission finding directly contradicts the earlier finding of the Joint House-Senate Select Intelligence Committee's 2002 Report[9] (p.415) of "sources of foreign support for some of the September 11 hijackers.”



In a 2002 essay[10] for The Guardian, Baer wrote, "Did bin Laden act alone, through his own al-Qaida network, in launching the attacks? About that I'm far more certain and emphatic: no." In subsequent interviews, Baer has suggested that support for the attacks could have come from Saudi Arabia and Iran.



In 2006, during an interview by Thom Hartmann[11], Baer, after commenting on the financial profits being made from 9/11, was asked: “What about political profit? There are those who suggest that ... someone in that chain of command ... had pretty good knowledge that 9/11 was going to happen -- and really didn't do much to stop it -- or even obstructed efforts to stop it because they thought it would lend legitimacy to Bush's ... failing presidency.” Baer replied: “Absolutely.” Hartmann then asked, “So you are personally of the opinion ... that there was an aspect of 'inside job' to 9/11 within the U.S. government?" To which Baer replied, "There is that possibility, the evidence points at it." When Hartmann continued, "And why is it not being investigated?” Baer replied, "Why isn't the WMD story being investigated? Why hasn't anybody been held accountable for 9/11? We held people accountable after Pearl Harbor. Why has there been no change in command? Why have there been no political repercussions? Why has there been no -- any sort of exposure on this? It really makes you wonder."



In his blurb for the revised and updated edition of David Ray Griffin’s Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Baer wrote[12]: "Until we get a complete, honest, transparent investigation …, we will never know what happened on 9/11.”



"I am forced to conclude that 9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war,” wrote well-known intelligence analyst Robert David Steele in 2006 in a review of the book, 9/11 Synthetic Terror by Webster Tarpley[13]. Steele is the author of numerous books on the intelligence services and is currently the CEO of OSS.net, a proponent of Open Source Intelligence. Steele has 25 years of combined service in the CIA and the U.S. Marine Corps. He also served as the second ranking civilian (GS-14) in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992 and was a member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University. Steele continued, “I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers.”



Robert David Steele

In a subsequent interview on the Alex Jones Show[14], Steele said, "The U.S. government did not properly investigate this [9/11] and there are more rocks to be turned over," and added, "I'm absolutely certain that WTC 7 was brought down by controlled demolition and that, as far as I'm concerned, means that this case has not been properly investigated. There's no way that building could have come down without controlled demolition."



In late 2004, a group of 25 intelligence service and law enforcement veterans sent a joint letter to Congress[15] expressing their concerns about “serious shortcomings,” “omissions,” and “major flaws” in the 9/11 Commission Report and offering their services for a new investigation. Their letter was apparently entirely ignored. Among the signers were four CIA veterans; Raymond McGovern and Melvin Goodman (both mentioned above) and Lynne Larkin and David MacMichael.

Lynne Larkin was a CIA Operations Officer who served in several CIA foreign stations before being assigned to the CIA's Counter-Intelligence Center. There, she co-chaired a multi-agency task force, which, among other functions, provided direction to other federal agencies for coordinating intelligence efforts among the many intelligence and law enforcement agencies.



Lynne Larkin

David MacMichael, PhD, is a former Senior Estimates Officer at the CIA with special responsibility for Western Hemisphere Affairs at the CIA's National Intelligence Council. Prior to joining the CIA, he served as a U.S. Marine Corps officer for ten years and for four years as a counter-insurgency advisor to the government.



David MacMichael

Their letter read:

"[W]e the undersigned wish to bring to the attention of the Congress and the people of the United States what we believe are serious shortcomings in the report and its recommendations. …

Omission is one of the major flaws in the Commission’s report. We are aware of significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the commission by those of us with direct knowledge, but somehow escaped attention. …

The omission of such serious and applicable issues and information by itself renders the report flawed, and casts doubt on the validity of many of its recommendations. ...

The Commission, with its incomplete report of "facts and circumstances", intentional avoidance of assigning accountability, and disregard for the knowledge, expertise and experience of those who actually do the job, has now set about pressuring our Congress and our nation to hastily implement all its recommendations. …

We the undersigned, who have worked within various government agencies (FBI, CIA, FAA, DIA, Customs) responsible for national security and public safety, call upon you in Congress to include the voices of those with first-hand knowledge and expertise in the important issues at hand. We stand ready to do our part.”

And they and thousands of dedicated, loyal, and experienced military officers, intelligence service and law enforcement veterans, and government officials still stand ready to provide assistance for a thorough, impartial, and honest investigation into the terrible acts of 9/11.

Statements questioning the official account of 9/11 and calls for a new investigation by hundreds of credible individuals can be found at http://PatriotsQuestion911.com





BELIEVE!!!!!!
Daniyal
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Post by Daniyal »

DrJ;937627 wrote: The Truth is coming!

As far as the cell phone question,, here is some new info,, you might find interesting,,,



For the Zacarias Moussoui trial, the government has released all its detailed evidence regarding the phone calls from the planes. The evidence is titled "Zacarias Moussaoui Prosecution Trial Exhibit number P200055," and can be partially viewed here:

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evid ... etail.html

The evidence is very revealing and detailed, and contradicts some of the assumptions previously held by 9/11 researchers. For example:

1. All of Tom Burnett's calls from UAL93 were made from airphones in the back of the plane. It had previously been reported that his calls were made from his cell phone, which caused controversy since his first two calls were made when the plane was still above 30,000 feet, at which altitude cell phone calls are difficult if not impossible.

2. All the phone calls from UAL93 were made by airphones, with the lone exception of Cee Cee Lyles' call on a cell phone at 10:57. At that time, the plane's transponder was turned on showing the plane at 7,000 feet, speed unknown.

3. The evidence exhibit shows exactly which airphone each call was made. All airphone calls from all flights were made from the rear area of the planes, where the passengers had apparently been herded.

4. Amy Sweeney's numerous calls from AAL11 were not made on an airphone as previously reported. Her calls were made on a cell phone starting at about 8:25. At this time, the plane's transponder was turned off and the altitude was unknown.

5. All the cell phone calls (UAL175 had none) were made at times when the planes' altitude was unknown, and thus could have been made when the planes were below 8,000 feet at which altitude cell phone calls are known to be possible from airplanes.

Conclusions: The argument that the phone calls are faked because cell phone calls are impossible from moving airplanes is discredited by this new evidence.

Note that the body of evidence taken from the phone calls at large DOES NOT support the government's story of 19 Arab hijackers. The phone calls indicate hijackers with knives; but they do not show the hijackers to be Arabs-- only persons who may have been impersonating Arabs. The phone calls also show evidence that the hijackers were armed with guns as well, pointing to a far more sophisticated conspiracy than the al-Qaeda operatives of the official story.



Headlined on 9/23/07:

Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report

by Alan Miller

www.opednews.com



Official Account of 9/11 a “Joke” and a “Cover-up”

September 23, 2007 – Seven CIA veterans have severely criticized the official account of 9/11 and have called for a new investigation. “I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 Report is a joke,” said Raymond McGovern, 27-year veteran of the CIA, who chaired National Intelligence Estimates during the seventies. “There are a whole bunch of unanswered questions. And the reason they’re unanswered is because this administration will not answer the questions,” he said. McGovern, who is also the founder of VIPS (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity), is one of many signers of a petition to reinvestigate 9/11.[1]



Raymond McGovern

During his 27-year CIA career, McGovern personally delivered intelligence briefings to Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, their Vice Presidents, Secretaries of State, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and many other senior government officials. Upon retirement in 1990, McGovern was awarded the CIA’s Intelligence Commendation Medallion and received a letter of appreciation from then President George H. W. Bush. However, McGovern returned the award[2] in 2006 in protest of the current George W. Bush Administration’s advocacy and use of torture.



In his blurb for 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out,” edited by David Ray Griffin and Peter Dale Scott, McGovern wrote[3]: “It has long been clear that the Bush-Cheney administration cynically exploited the attacks of 9/11 to promote its imperial designs. But the present volume confronts us with evidence for an even more disturbing conclusion: that the 9/11 attacks were themselves orchestrated by this administration precisely so they could be thus exploited. If this is true, it is not merely the case, as the Downing Street memos show, that the stated reason for attacking Iraq was a lie. It is also the case that the whole “war on terror” was based on a prior deception. This book hence confronts the American people---indeed the people of the world as a whole---with an issue second to none in importance and urgency. I give this book, which in no way can be dismissed as the ravings of ‘paranoid conspiracy theorists,’ my highest possible recommendation.”



William Christison, a 29-year CIA veteran, former National Intelligence Officer (NIO) and former Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis also describes the 9/11 Commission Report as a “joke” and offers even more outspoken criticism. In a 2006 audio interview[4] he said, "We very seriously need an entirely new very high level and truly independent investigation of the events of 9/11. I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all.”



William Christison

Earlier this year, in an endorsement of David Ray Griffin’s book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Christison wrote[5], “ a strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.” And in an online essay[6] in late 2006, he wrote, “I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. … An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. … The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.”



Prior to his retirement from the CIA in 1979, Christison served as Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis, overseeing 200 analysts who collected intelligence and provided analysis on all regions and every country in the world. Prior to that, he served as one of only a handful of NIO’s in the intelligence community. NIO’s are responsible for the intelligence community efforts in a particular area and are the principal advisors to the Director of Central Intelligence. Christison was NIO for Southeast Asia, South Asia, and Africa.



Melvin Goodman, PhD, is another former senior CIA official who calls the 9/11 Commission Report a “coverup” and who signed the petition to reinvestigate 9/11.[7] Goodman was the Division Chief of the CIA’s Office of Soviet Affairs and served as Senior Analyst from 1966 - 1990. He also served as Professor of International Security at the National War College from 1986 - 2004.



Melvin Goodman, PhD

In testimony before a 2005 Congressional briefing on the 9/11 Commission Report[8], Goodman said, “I want to talk about the [9/11] Commission itself, about the flawed process of the Commission and finally about the conflict of interest within the Commission that is extremely important to understand the failure of the Commission. … The final report is ultimately a coverup. I don't know how else to describe it." Goodman is currently Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and Adjunct Professor of Government at Johns Hopkins University.

Robert Baer is another well known CIA veteran who has questioned the official account of 9/11. A 21-year CIA veteran and specialist in the Middle East, Baer was awarded the Career Intelligence Medal upon his retirement in 1997. After retirement, he wrote two best-selling non-fiction books about the CIA, See No Evil and Sleeping with the Devil, the former of which was the basis for the Academy Award-winning movie Syriana, starring George Clooney. Baer was also the writer and on-camera commentator for the Emmy Award-nominated documentary Cult of the Suicide Bomber.



Robert Baer

Baer has repeatedly questioned whether al-Qaida could have accomplished 9/11 alone. The 9/11 Commission Report categorically found al-Qaida to be entirely responsible for 9/11, stating, "Similarly, we have seen no evidence that any foreign government -- or government official -- supplied any funding." However, this 9/11 Commission finding directly contradicts the earlier finding of the Joint House-Senate Select Intelligence Committee's 2002 Report[9] (p.415) of "sources of foreign support for some of the September 11 hijackers.”



In a 2002 essay[10] for The Guardian, Baer wrote, "Did bin Laden act alone, through his own al-Qaida network, in launching the attacks? About that I'm far more certain and emphatic: no." In subsequent interviews, Baer has suggested that support for the attacks could have come from Saudi Arabia and Iran.



In 2006, during an interview by Thom Hartmann[11], Baer, after commenting on the financial profits being made from 9/11, was asked: “What about political profit? There are those who suggest that ... someone in that chain of command ... had pretty good knowledge that 9/11 was going to happen -- and really didn't do much to stop it -- or even obstructed efforts to stop it because they thought it would lend legitimacy to Bush's ... failing presidency.” Baer replied: “Absolutely.” Hartmann then asked, “So you are personally of the opinion ... that there was an aspect of 'inside job' to 9/11 within the U.S. government?" To which Baer replied, "There is that possibility, the evidence points at it." When Hartmann continued, "And why is it not being investigated?” Baer replied, "Why isn't the WMD story being investigated? Why hasn't anybody been held accountable for 9/11? We held people accountable after Pearl Harbor. Why has there been no change in command? Why have there been no political repercussions? Why has there been no -- any sort of exposure on this? It really makes you wonder."



In his blurb for the revised and updated edition of David Ray Griffin’s Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Baer wrote[12]: "Until we get a complete, honest, transparent investigation …, we will never know what happened on 9/11.”



"I am forced to conclude that 9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war,” wrote well-known intelligence analyst Robert David Steele in 2006 in a review of the book, 9/11 Synthetic Terror by Webster Tarpley[13]. Steele is the author of numerous books on the intelligence services and is currently the CEO of OSS.net, a proponent of Open Source Intelligence. Steele has 25 years of combined service in the CIA and the U.S. Marine Corps. He also served as the second ranking civilian (GS-14) in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992 and was a member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University. Steele continued, “I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers.”



Robert David Steele

In a subsequent interview on the Alex Jones Show[14], Steele said, "The U.S. government did not properly investigate this [9/11] and there are more rocks to be turned over," and added, "I'm absolutely certain that WTC 7 was brought down by controlled demolition and that, as far as I'm concerned, means that this case has not been properly investigated. There's no way that building could have come down without controlled demolition."



In late 2004, a group of 25 intelligence service and law enforcement veterans sent a joint letter to Congress[15] expressing their concerns about “serious shortcomings,” “omissions,” and “major flaws” in the 9/11 Commission Report and offering their services for a new investigation. Their letter was apparently entirely ignored. Among the signers were four CIA veterans; Raymond McGovern and Melvin Goodman (both mentioned above) and Lynne Larkin and David MacMichael.

Lynne Larkin was a CIA Operations Officer who served in several CIA foreign stations before being assigned to the CIA's Counter-Intelligence Center. There, she co-chaired a multi-agency task force, which, among other functions, provided direction to other federal agencies for coordinating intelligence efforts among the many intelligence and law enforcement agencies.



Lynne Larkin

David MacMichael, PhD, is a former Senior Estimates Officer at the CIA with special responsibility for Western Hemisphere Affairs at the CIA's National Intelligence Council. Prior to joining the CIA, he served as a U.S. Marine Corps officer for ten years and for four years as a counter-insurgency advisor to the government.



David MacMichael

Their letter read:

"[W]e the undersigned wish to bring to the attention of the Congress and the people of the United States what we believe are serious shortcomings in the report and its recommendations. …

Omission is one of the major flaws in the Commission’s report. We are aware of significant issues and cases that were duly reported to the commission by those of us with direct knowledge, but somehow escaped attention. …

The omission of such serious and applicable issues and information by itself renders the report flawed, and casts doubt on the validity of many of its recommendations. ...

The Commission, with its incomplete report of "facts and circumstances", intentional avoidance of assigning accountability, and disregard for the knowledge, expertise and experience of those who actually do the job, has now set about pressuring our Congress and our nation to hastily implement all its recommendations. …

We the undersigned, who have worked within various government agencies (FBI, CIA, FAA, DIA, Customs) responsible for national security and public safety, call upon you in Congress to include the voices of those with first-hand knowledge and expertise in the important issues at hand. We stand ready to do our part.”

And they and thousands of dedicated, loyal, and experienced military officers, intelligence service and law enforcement veterans, and government officials still stand ready to provide assistance for a thorough, impartial, and honest investigation into the terrible acts of 9/11.

Statements questioning the official account of 9/11 and calls for a new investigation by hundreds of credible individuals can be found at http://PatriotsQuestion911.com





BELIEVE!!!!!!


The Facts ( Beyond Any Doubt ) Have Come And False Ways Were To Vanish . Surely , The False Ways Were To Vanish In Time ..
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.



When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down





To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .



It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble



When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

Daniyal;937976 wrote: The Facts ( Beyond Any Doubt ) Have Come And False Ways Were To Vanish . Surely , The False Ways Were To Vanish In Time ..


There's more to the picture,,,,,,than meets the eye...

~~~~~~~~~~Hey Hey,,,,,,,,,,,, MY MY~~~~~~~~

9/11 Survivors and Family Members

Question the 9/11 Commission Report

An estimated 2,973 people were killed in the 9/11 attacks. The death toll at the World Trade Center included 60 police officers and 343 firefighters, 87 passengers aboard American Flight 11, 60 on United Flight 175, and over 2,000 occupants and neighbors of the WTC. The death toll at the Pentagon included 125 people from the Pentagon and 64 passengers on American Flight 77. And 44 people lost their lives on United Flight 93.

Many 9/11 survivors and many 9/11 victim family members have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report. Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11.

The public statements of many survivors contradict the Commission Report. And the words and actions of some of the victims on that terrible day are in conflict with the Commission Report. This section is a collection of their statements. This website is not an organization and it should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this website.

Listed below are statements by more than 210 9/11 survivors, victims and family members that contradict or are critical of the 9/11 Commission Report. Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed.

These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their statements are based on their intimate familiarity with and intense study of the events of 9/11. Their criticism of the Commission Report is not inherently irresponsible or illogical, In fact, it is based on their desire to honor the victims of that terrible day by finding the truth and bringing to justice those responsible for these terrible acts.

If you are a 9/11 survivor or family member who has concerns about the 9/11 Commission Report and would like your comment added to this website, please contact me.

Thanks, Alan Miller alan.miller (at) PatriotsQuestion911 (dot) com

Contact Your Local 9/11 Truth Group Listed Here!

Demand a New 9/11 Investigation!



WTC STAFF, OCCUPANTS, AND NEIGHBORS

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William Rodriguez



William Rodriguez – WTC survivor. An American Building Maintenance employee for twenty years, responsible for inspection and maintenance at the World Trade Center, who held the master key for the stairs. He was the last person to leave the building on September 11 and has been credited with saving many lives. For his efforts, he received the National Hero Award from the Senate of Puerto Rico. Founder, Hispanic Victims Group.

Article 6/24/05: Regarding an explosion in the sub-basement of the World Trade Center North Tower on 9/11, prior to any airplane impact. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking," said Rodriguez, who was huddled together with at least 14 other people in the office. ... [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Rodriguez was in sub-basement B1 of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's impact point at floors 93 to 98.]

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above," said Rodriguez. "Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion."

But before Rodriguez had time to think, co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling "explosion! explosion! explosion!"

David had been in front of a nearby freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries.

"He was burned terribly," said Rodriguez. "The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn't have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up. ...

"I disagree 100%with the government story," said Rodriguez. "I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn't have any answers." http://www.arcticbeacon



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.



Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:

"We want truthful answers to question. … As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things:

An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer

Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.

Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.

The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry." http://www.911truth.org/article.php



Signatory 11/19/04: Complaint filed with the Attorney General, State of New York for a new independent grand jury investigation of 9/11.

"We, the complainant signatories below, petition the Attorney General of New York, on behalf of millions of New Yorkers who also call for a fearless independent inquiry; for the sake of residents, workers, and business owners in New York—most particularly in and near "Ground Zero"; and also on behalf of other Americans who have lost employees, friends, and family members as well as health, business, and personal assets and civil, privacy, and other rights in the events of September 11, 2001 and their aftermath.

We approach your office as concerned citizens desiring to bring to light the truth about the events of 9/11." http://www.justicefor911.org

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Personal website: http://www.911keymaster.com/

Anthony Saltalamacchia – WTC Survivor. Maintenance Supervisor at the World Trade Center, overseeing over 100 American Building Maintenance employees.

Video interview by William Rodriguez 9/07: "On the morning of September 11th, I was in my office. I was just getting the work handed out to all the employees. ... [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Saltalamacchia was in sub-basement B1 of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's impact point at floors 93 to 98.]

We heard a massive explosion that was in the World Trade Center about 8:46 a.m. in the morning. The explosion came from -- I believe at first we believed that it came from the Mechanical Room. [Editor's note: The Mechanical Room was below them in a lower sub-basement .]

Then we heard a series of other explosions that sounded up on the above levels of the building. We then realized that there was something wrong and there was a major problem. And about, I'd say, 14 to 15 people came running and screaming into our office. ...

Then right after that the floor started shaking. The tile from above, which was above us, started coming down, falling on us. And we knew that there was something seriously wrong happening.

A man came into the office. He was a black man, very shaky, like in shock. He had multiple wounds. His arms were bleeding. Skin was peeling off. You could see basically his flesh. It was a very tough thing to see. ... [Editor's note: Mr. Saltalmaccia is referring to Felipe David.]

And as we're standing there, more explosions were happening. A lot of screaming confusion. ...

It was very smoky, very cloudy. It just looked very serious. We knew we had to get out of the building. ...

The amount of explosions I've heard from 8:46 until the time we got out was so many, at least ten. It was just like multiple explosions to where I felt like there were different grenades. That's what it sounded like, it was different grenades being set off in the building. It was like -- There was one major explosion, and then there was different explosions throughout that period of time until we got out.

Do I believe six years after 9/11? I don't know the truth. I don't believe a word that they say. I just don't believe Everything they say is a cover up. ... No, definitely don't leave it alone. I think that we should get documents to know the truth of what was really going on that we didn't know that we should know now." http://www.youtube.com



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

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Phillip Morelli – WTC survivor. Construction worker at the World Trade Center for seven years .

Video interview: "At 8:30 he says he was headed for level B-4 in Tower One [North Tower], four stories below ground.

"... As I'm walking by the main freight car of the building, in the corridor, that's when I got blown. I mean the impact of the explosion, from whatever happened, it threw me to the floor. And that's when everything started happening. It knocked me right to the floor. You didn't know what it was. Of course, you're assuming something fell over on the loading dock, something very heavy, something very big. You don't know what happened. And all of a sudden you just felt the floor moving. ... [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Morelli was in the sub-basement of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]

I was racing -- I was going towards the bathroom. All of a sudden. I opened the door. I didn't know it was a bathroom And all of a sudden a big impact happened again. And all the ceiling tiles were falling down. The light fixtures were falling, swinging out of the ceiling. And I come running out the door and everything, the walls were down. And I now started running towards the parking lots."

Nearly 100 floors below where the first plane hit Phil felt the devastating impact. ...

"As I ran to the parking lots, you know, I mean, everybody screaming ... There was a lot of smoke down there. ... You gotta go clear across the whole -- from One to Two World Trade Center. That's the way you gotta run.

And then all of a sudden it happened all over again. Building Two got hit. I don't know that. I just know something else hit us to the floor. Right in the basement you felt it. The walls were caving in. Everything that was going on. I know of people that got killed in the basement. I know of people that got broken legs in the basement. People got reconstructive surgery because the walls hit them in the face." http://real.ny1.com



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

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Marlene Cruz – WTC survivor. Carpenter employed at the World Trade Center for 15 years.

ABC 9/12/01: Peter Jennings interviewed Marlene Cruz the day after 9/11. Ms. Cruz, a WTC carpenter, was injured in the basement of WTC North Tower on 9/11. She was the first casualty from the WTC to arrive at Bellevue Hospital.

Peter Jennings: So tell me how you're feeling. How did you get there? What happened to you?

Marlene Cruz: I work for the Trade Center. I'm one of the carpenters. And I was gonna go do a job. And I got on the elevator, the freight elevator. And I heard the first explosion. And the elevator blew up. The doors blew up. And it dropped. I was lucky that the elevator got caught between two floors.

Peter Jennings: Which floors?

Marlene Cruz: The B Levels. The basement levels. ... [Editor's note: At this point, Ms. Cruz was in the basement of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]

After the first explosion I was laying on the floor about 40 minutes.

Peter Jennings: And how well do you know that subterranean part of the World Trade Center?

Marlene Cruz: Well, I worked for the building for 15 years. I think I know it from the back of my hand. Really I didn't expect this bombing to occur after the first one, since I was in the first one, also. But when I heard that explosion that's the first thing I thought was; here we go again, another bomb.



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

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Mike Pecoraro – WTC survivor. Stationary Engineer who performed services in all of the buildings at the World Trade Center.

Article Chief Engineer 2002: Mike Pecoraro and a co-worker were working in the sub-basement of the North Tower when the first airplane hit. "They had been told to stay where they were and "sit tight" until the Assistant Chief got back to them. By this time, however, the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke. "We smelled kerosene," Mike recalled, "I was thinking maybe a car fire was upstairs", referring to the parking garage located below grade in the tower but above the deep space where they were working. [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Pecoraro was in the sub-basement of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's impact point at floors 93 to 98.]

The two decided to ascend the stairs to the C level, to a small machine shop where Vito Deleo and David Williams were supposed to be working. When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone.

"There was nothing there but rubble, " Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press? gone!" The two began yelling for their co-workers, but there was no answer. They saw a perfect line of smoke streaming through the air. "You could stand here," he said, "and two inches over you couldn't breathe. We couldn't see through the smoke so we started screaming." But there was still no answer.

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said. [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Pecoraro was in the basement of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]

They decided to ascend two more levels to the building's lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up "like a piece of aluminum foil" and lying on the floor. "They got us again," Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building's structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building. Mike walked through the open doorway and found two people lying on the floor. One was a female Carpenter and the other an Elevator Operator. They were both badly burned and injured." http://www.chiefengineer.org



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

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Kenneth Johannemann – WTC survivor. An American Building Maintenance employee at the World Trade Center.

Statement to television reporter 9/11/01: Mr. Johannemann was in the basement of the North Tower when the first plane impacted. "I was right there. I was down in the basement. Came down. All of a sudden the elevator blew up. Smoke. I dragged a guy out. His skin was hanging off and I dragged him out and I helped him out to the ambulance." [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Johannemann was in the basement of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]

http://www.prisonplanet.com



Article 9/12/01: "Kenny Johannemann was in the the number one [North] tower of the World Trade centre, waiting for the elevator in the basement. [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Johannemann was in the basement of the North Tower, approximately 1,100 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]

It was shift-change time, the time of day when the building is most crowded.

"The lift door exploded open. There was a man inside half burnt. His skin was hanging off.

"I dragged him out of the lift and somebody helped me get him out for the building." http://www.smh.com.au



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

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Joe Shearin – WTC survivor. Assistant Chief Engineer at the World Trade Center.

Article Chief Engineer 2002: "That morning a note had been left for Joe by the Chief Engineer of the midnight to 8 a.m. shift telling him that a tenant on the 38th floor wanted to see him as early as possible. So after distributing the work orders to his staff, he entered one of the tower's elevator cars and headed up into the building.

On the 38th floor, Joe Shearin exited the elevator and began his walk down the hallway to meet with the tenant who had requested to see him. About 50 feet down the hallway, he heard a loud explosion and was lifted into the air. "I can't even tell you how far I traveled," he recalled. When he landed, people were already coming out of their offices into the hallway. "They were screaming, hollering," he said. "They were asking what they should do and where they should go". Joe directed them down the stairwells and out of the building. [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Shearin was on the 38th floor of the North Tower, approximately 650 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]

What Joe first believed was that an equipment room on the 43rd floor, which had an electrical substation, had blown up. He proceeded up the 5 floors to that level. Upon reaching the 43rd floor, "there were patches of ceiling that was just down on the floor, water pipes were broken, water was gushing like a brook or river that was just running down the corridor of the machine room." [Editor's note: At this point, Mr. Shearin was on the 43rd floor of the North Tower, approximately 600 feet below the airplane's point of impact at floors 93 to 98.]http://www.chiefengineer.org



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

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Arthur DelBianco – WTC Survivor. An American Building Maintenance employee. Worked 15 years at the World Trade Center.

Video interview 9/11/01: "...and then all of a sudden it started like -- It sounded like gunfire. You know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And then all of a sudden three big explosions."



NBC Today Show Video interview with Arthur DelBianco, Marlene Cruz, and Hursley Lever 9/12/01: At time of the first plane impact, Arthur DelBianco was in WTC 1 (North Tower).

"I was heading up to the 106th or 7th floor in an elevator. And around the 70th floor I heard -- the lights flicked in the elevator and a rumble and then I heard people screaming on the radio, "I'm trapped. Get me out. Get us out. Get us out. Fire! Fire!" I told the elevator operator to open the door and get the people wherever we were on. And we took them down to the ground level. ...

I went downstairs looking for my fellow workers, because at that time I didn't know the extent of the explosion. I thought it was just an explosion, not that it was two planes that ran into the building. So we're looking subgrade for fellow workers. And I got out of the building at one point and saw the two planes and the building burning. ...

I went looking for my friend, Hursley Lever, over here, and couldn't find him. Myself and Mike Pecoraro were back in the building looking for him and we couldn't find him. We helped the paramedics to work their way down and the firemen to work their way down because Marlene [Cruz] was hurt on the second level below ground.

At that point, we got out because the smoke and the water was getting too heavy. And when I got up to the concourse level it was just like gunfire and then and then, just three big explosions. And the elevator banks came down and the windows and glass and the stainless steel and the marble just started pushing us. We started running to get out of there. And it pushed us through the rubble like 25 to 50 feet.

I wound up handing by an elevator pit with my hand on a turnstyle. When I awoke, when it stopped, I felt someone walk over to me and it was a firefighter. ... And as we went along trying to find our way out to Liberty Street, we just grabbed people along the way. ... When I got outside, the building come down. ... We'd just stepped across the street by the financial center and the building started coming down." http://www.youtube.com



Editor's note: Despite hundreds of eyewitness reports of explosions throughout the Twin Towers by doomed victims, survivors, emergency service personnel, reporters, and bystanders, the 9/11 Commission Report contains virtually no mention of them and entirely ignores them in its conclusions. Graeme MacQueen's analysis of oral histories of 9/11 taken from 503 FDNY survivors reveals more than 100 FDNY personnel reported explosions in the Twin Towers.

Where's 60 minutes,,, what has happened to the American mainstream media?
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

facts wrote:

13. Democracy itself is endangered when the following conditions are found to be the case in the political culture of a nation:

a. Government in all-too-many cases refuses to assign responsibility, promote transparency, or demand accountability from governing officials.

b. Government encourages a stifling environment that suppresses dissent, persecutes whistleblowers, spurns the Freedom of Information Act, weakens personal privacy protections, inflates public fear, and extols "patriotic" obedience and militarization, etc.

c. States are excluded from matters impacting their citizens by federal preemption, intervention, and "state secrets" arguments.

d. Potential suspects/defendants control investigative and public access to evidence that may tend to incriminate them.[26]

e. A majority of citizens come to suspect high crimes and treachery within their own government, but cannot find officials with enough courage, power or independence to thoroughly investigate their concerns and restore the public trust.




http://www.justicefor911.org/Part_I_Com ... 111904.php

It's the cover up that always gets them....

Even the perfect crime always has at least one mistake,,, but building 7 was such a bold move,,

it makes one believe there is no concern what-so-ever what anyone finds or believes...

Scary thought to say the least,, but that doesn't stop the truth,,eh?

facts wrote:

PART II.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY OF FACTUAL MATTERS

GIVING RISE TO SUSPICIONS OF CRIMINAL ACTS

BY PERPETRATORS OTHER

THAN 19 MIDDLE EASTERN HIJACKERS

The September 11 attacks have generated a vast body of historical research, editorial content, scientific and statistical studies, and public policy statements and analyses that have over time increasingly bifurcated into two opposing camps: On the one side a large, independent research community has mounted a formidable challenge to the official story; and on the other stand those pillars of mainstream opinion who have never really doubted the original assumptions (see the list in Part I, section 5) first presented to the world by the Bush Administration within days of the tragedy. And tragedy compounds upon tragedy; compelling evidence exists that criminal acts attributed to 19 Middle Eastern hijackers may have also involved or even been perpetrated by other persons of interest or suspects either set free or not investigated who have gone free and even live among us—and all this because of the manifest default of our governmental institutions and media in carrying out their moral duty to pursue the truth no matter where it may lead.

No one doubts that the mainstream media have largely ignored the findings of the 9/11 truth movement during this period of the evolution of opinion and research. As in so many other issues of the day, establishment media have been compliant with official pronouncements—or perhaps have feared the profound consequences that might result if they were to devote the investigative resources that would be required to cover our challenges to the official story. While the mass media have remained in dereliction of duty, rich dialogues among the independent 9/11 research community have for several years fermented across the Internet, before a more recent blossoming of books, publications, speaking events, conferences, and films. Professionals and amateurs alike among these independent researchers have debated the ultimate origins of the attacks; the role of national intelligence and defense systems in failing America; the underlying motives for the actions taken by the Bush Administration in response to 9/11; and the many, many unanswered questions still not addressed by official investigations and mainstream media.

Meanwhile, the unchallenged official story that still guides government policy-making and legislation has had profound consequences for America and the world. The 9/11 tragedy has been exploited for political gain even in an election campaign. The unexamined official story about 9/11 is cited as justification for preemptive attacks on foreign countries, an ongoing war, and radical changes in public policy. The US approach to the so-called War on Terror has led to a break with America's allies and the United Nations, the enactment of statutes that limit civil liberties of citizens, visitors and immigrants alike, the detainment and even torture of foreign nationals without benefit of due process and guarantees assured under the Geneva Convention, the creation of a new cabinet agency and the expenditure of billions of dollars to increase police-like activity across the nation.

The complainants believe that the moral imperative for investigating our challenge to the official story has never been greater. But as with treatments of any complex issue outside of "official channels," the available sources vary in intent, focus, quality and accuracy and, therefore, in value. Thus in Part II we provide—based upon our best assessment of the highest quality independent research—a condensed summary of possible avenues for investigation. We realize that credible and promising leads may yet prove baseless, while speculations that at first may seem off base can turn out to be true.

An open mind is required as one considers the overwhelming evidence that points to a wider circle of complicity than allowed for in the official story. We believe a subpoena-empowered investigation of these avenues for investigation, in combination, will uncover indictable crimes under both New York and federal laws.




The media isn't allowed,, isn't free to investigate,, the silence is to,,,,to obvious...

facts wrote:

A. TAXONOMY OF EVIDENCE FOR A WIDER CIRCLE OF COMPLICITY

1. AIR DEFENSE ON 9/11: The complex anomalies and demonstrably false statements about US air defense response on September 11, including evidence suggesting that such failures cannot be explained by mere incompetence. This is an enormously complex issue involving conflicting and revised government air defense timelines, classified "coincident" multiple war games and other terror-related exercises that occurred on the morning of September 11, 2001, and therefore requires the longest treatment. While your office may choose not to find grounds for direct jurisdiction in these matters, their importance to a potential criminal investigation will become clear in combination with the other subjects treated below. (See, Appendix A1)

2. CHAIN OF COMMAND: The failure to exercise authority among top officials in the US military chain of command during the actual attacks, so consistent that it suggests an intentional abdication of responsibility and points to the likelihood of criminal facilitation. (See, Appendix A2) [Note: Repeat sentence here deleted, moved up to correct position in Item 1 above.-Ed.]

3. PAKISTANI ISI: The alleged connection of the Pakistani Interservices Intelligence Agency ("ISI") to financing the 9/11 plot, with its implications leading back to possible American connections in our intelligence agencies and other officials. (See, Appendix A3)

4. INSIDER TRADING: Reports received from stock exchanges all over the world pointing to evidence of massive financial trading based on insider foreknowledge of 9/11 attack details. This complex issue was far from resolved by the dismissal—itself untenable—of "put option" evidence by both the SEC and The 9/11 Commission Report, as this evidence is itself only one part of the allegation. (See, Appendix A4)

5. COLLAPSE OF WTC BUILDING 7: The unexplained and little-reported free-fall collapse of World Trade Center Building 7, which raises the possibility of an intentional demolition. (See, Appendix A5)

6. ANTHRAX ATTACKS: The as-yet unsolved anthrax attacks of October 2001 and their impact on domestic politics and the 9/11 investigations. (See, Appendix A6)

7. PTECH RAID/INVESTIGATION: The activities of the government contracter Ptech, indicating a possible criminal complex surrounding this US government contractor and a role in the 9/11 crimes. (See, Appendix A7)




http://www.justicefor911.org/Part_I_Com ... 111904.php



Seen enough?,,,,,,,,,,,,NO?

Whats it gone a take for Americans to wake up?

Assuming there was an adequate investigation about 9/11 isn't good enough anymore,,,,

but that was true long ago for the families of the lost.....

facts wrote:

PART III.

The Petition

Proceeding from the information provided above in Parts I and II, we hereby request the Attorney General to engage in the following activities on behalf of the people of New York:

A. Conduct an impartial investigation or appoint an independent, impartial, randomly selected grand jury to:

1. Generally, answer the unanswered questions, those posed to the Kean Commission by the relatives of September 11 victims and those posed in this Complaint and Petition and in the materials provided with it.

2. Obtain any as-yet unpublished or classified investigatory analyses, reports, or physical or other evidence from law enforcement authorities, government agencies and courts of New York City, New York State and other localities and states, US federal and foreign agencies, Congressional offices, Pentagon, White House, Department of Justice, Department of Homeland Security, the Mission to the United Nations, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, CIA, FAA, FBI, FEMA, NIST, NTSB, SEC, Underwriters Laboratories, former members of the Kean Commission and its staff, and others, and identify any anomalies from the official assumptions, declarations, media reports, and other accounts put forward to the people of New York as explanations for the absence of official culpability for the crime and damages arising from it.

3. Interview witnesses, alleged perpetrators, whistleblowers, and other sources whose accounts of the events of 9/11 have been suppressed, classified, or otherwise withheld from public scrutiny.

4. Determine to what extent insider trading in the form of "put" or "short" positions—and any other suspicious securities trading activity—took place with respect to stocks in companies adversely affected by the 9/11 tragedy (including, but not limited to, United Airlines, American Air Lines, Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley). In addition, identify the holders of any suspicious positions or principals of trades and any individuals or firms in the securities business who may have furthered any such insider trading or had knowledge thereof.

5. Determine the validity of those assumptions (as described in Part I, Section 5 of this Complaint and Petition) upon which the findings of the Kean Commission are based, and if not valid, determine what effect any so-identified discrepancies (between the official assumptions and the actual events) would have upon the conclusions as to (a) the cause of the 9/11 crimes and (b) the identity of the perpetrators and conspirators who carried out the 9/11 crimes.

6. Determine, based upon the work of independent scientists, engineers, and other experts, whether the collapse of each World Trade Center building was:

a. Solely due to the crash of two airliners and resulting fires (or, in the case of Building 7, fire alone);

b. Due in part to the storage of flammable chemicals or other combustibles within the buildings;

c. Due in part to fraud or criminal negligence or recklessness in the building materials, construction techniques, or maintenance of the buildings;

d. Due in part to detonation of explosive materials;

7. Identify those responsible for the destruction of evidence of the crimes committed in connection with the events of 9/11 and for the suppression of witness accounts through threats of reprisal, intimidation, harassment, or otherwise.

8. Determine from medical or other experts the cause of the many physical maladies suffered by the residents of, workers in, and visitors to New York City during and following the 9/11 tragedy from exposure to toxic substances and related causes and:

a. Identify individuals in key decision-making positions with respect to the official response to the ongoing health dangers posed by the 9/11 tragedy to New York City residents, workers, and visitors.

b. Determine what decisions were made and what actions were taken by the responsible individuals to safeguard or not safeguard the health and well-being of victims of toxic substance exposure in New York City and its surroundings.

c. Determine whether the actions taken by those in authority or in key advisory positions within and outside federal, state, and local government contributed to such physical maladies.

d. Identify any conflicts of interest by decision-making officials and determine whether such conflicts of interest contributed to or aggravated such physical maladies.

9. Identify those who authorized departure from US jurisdiction of potential individual co-conspirators, facilitators, or aiders and abettors. Specifically, identify the actions taken by those in authority and their superiors or principals to effectuate the premature departure of members of the bin Ladin family and other Saudis from US jurisdiction and what effect such departure had upon the investigation of crimes related to the 9/11 tragedy.

10. Generally, identify those responsible (including, if appropriate, those in government and government contractors) for murder, monetary damages to public authorities, property damage, and damage to the health and general welfare of New York residents and owners and employees of New York businesses.

11. Identify government officials and contractors, if any, responsible for failure of the nation's air defenses, including those involved in any capacity in the war games that coincided with the attacks.

12. Identify conflicts of interest among key public and private sector players involved in the events of 9/11 or their aftermath and identify any related patterns of profiteering, including stock market profits, with respect to, for example, the award of government contracts and the lobbying for and passage of legislation.

13. Identify bank accounts and other sources of funding for crimes related to 9/11 and "follow the money" from its ultimate sources through its use for purposes furthering the conspiracy of 9/11, in the process identifying and interviewing individuals whose actions furthered the criminal enterprise.

14. Identify law firms, accounting firms and banks, if any, that aided and abetted the 9/11 crimes, their financing and other activities in furtherance of crimes related to the tragedy.

15. Calculate the damages to the State of New York, the City of New York and their authorities, funds, and other instrumentalities, including both past costs and damages and the increase in the costs of future legal, contractual, or moral imperatives of such governmental entities, funds, or functions.

16. Identify sources of financial redress from:

a. Responsible federal government officials;

b. Complicit local officials;

c. Government contractors and private corporations (and their control persons), banks, and individuals who aided and abetted, criminally facilitated, conspired or breached contracts or duties arising under contract or otherwise—or engaged in illegal or immoral profiteering while in a position of public trust or fiduciary obligation.

B. Generally, hold responsible persons accountable under state law, both personally and through their employers or principals, and in so doing seek the following sanctions and remedies, and such other sanctions and remedies as may be available under New York law, or charge the federal government with pursuing federal remedies:

1. Indictments of responsible individuals, corporations or groups you believe are guilty of crimes under New York law, including crimes— such as criminal conspiracy, official misconduct, accessorial conduct, illegal profiteering, obstruction of justice, intimidation of potential witnesses, and destruction of evidence—that support or arise out of the underlying crimes.

2. Disgorgement of profits obtained by illegal or immoral means and contractual payments for incomplete, incompetent, faulty, or otherwise wrongfully compensated work under breached contracts and illegal activities contributing to, exacerbating, or covering up the crimes committed on or in connection with 9/11 and related activities thereafter in connection with the 9/11 tragedy and its aftermath.

3. Resignation or demotion of culpable individuals.

4. Consent decrees or other legally enforceable agreements or assurances to prevent the repetition of culpable behavior, negligence, recklessness, or other causes of harm to New Yorkers.

5. Debarment of culpable individuals, corporations, and organizations or groups from future business with the State of New York.

6. Recovery of damages and the levy of the maximum penalties available at law.

7. Prohibition of culpable businesses from continuing to transact business in the State of New York, where they:

a. Have stock traded on New York-based exchanges.

b. Have headquarters and US offices of foreign corporations (especially money center banks).

c. Qualify to do business in the state only through state grant, which can be withdrawn for illegal conduct.

d. Have submitted to jurisdiction of the State of New York by reason of admission to transact business in New York.

e. Have New York bank accounts that can be attached.

8. To the extent possible, address military failures and/or crimes, including actions of or effects on civilian military employees, turning over evidence to military tribunals, if appropriate.

C. If the federal government refuses to enforce federal laws: use state power to enforce state laws; challenge federal authority to supersede state and local authorities; challenge federally invoked state secrets privilege to examine whether it was genuinely invoked for security or abused to cover up wrongdoing; and work with international banking and other authorities to investigate and follow money trails.

D. Coordinate with the attorneys general of other states with interests in 9/11, as occurred in the "tobacco settlements" and other cases where multiple states had jurisdiction and sustained damages. (Appendix 8)

E. Take action to protect whistleblowers within and outside government from retaliatory actions.

F. Disclose your findings to the people of New York and the nation as a means of upholding truth and justice as the standards of the public realm, restoring the "shattered trust" of the people in their democratic institutions and honoring the memories of those who lost their lives on September 11, 2001.




http://www.justicefor911.org/Part_I_Com ... 111904.php



We need to find the TRUTH!!

It is owed to those that aren't here anymore, as well as their families...

Investigation prior to 9/11 on alqaeda,,

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline. ... ableDanger
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

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Post by DrJ »

Here's my view of it all..

When you put everything,,, every bit of info,, together,, it seems as if the people that are involved are at the highest levels of government,, and its just a small circle of associates.. Business partners you might say,, oil people,, people who are in the business of war,, who sell products to countries involved in war,, supply and demand,, is what was at issue here.. There are also some in the intelligence field that were needed for obvious reasons,, more the private contractor type,, aka Blackwater,,, comes to mind,, only because they were awarded the major contracts in Iraq after the pieces all fell together..

The evidence that shows everybody wasn't involved comes from the "able danger" section,, because they fought tooth and nail,,, to no avail,, obviously,, to get their info into the 9/11 commision report...

Able Danger,,, was totally aware of the actions and where abouts,, of certain key players of the hi- jack team,, long before 9/11,, they were the ones that were using the same "data mining" type tactics that the NSA are using now to track certain communications of anyone or anybody,, including the American people,, to monitor actions of said people...

Able Danger was up and operating during the Clinton administration,, they were watching Bosnia and had begun watching Al-quaeda before the attack on the Battleship COLE,,, their info was never used... They were silenced when they got to close to Mohammad Atta,, who they monitored in New Jersey before 9/11...

They were ordered to stop by a high ranking member of the military... Some were thrown under the bus for petty reasons just to get them off the program,, since they were close to ruining the ultimate plan,, of creating a war-like atmosphere in the minds of the American politicians,, who were kept in the dark for obvious reasons,,, the people of America were to react in a very predictable way,, and all the politicians had to do was please the minds of the population who never even understood why they were being attacked and would be open to any suggestions which the leaders were to present,, nice and tidy... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

OK,,, now we're in Afghanistan,,, Mission Accomplished!

Iraq is the next target,,, its the real goal of the oil people,, the prize,, you might say,, all they have to do is tie this anti-muslim attitude toward Saddam,, in the minds of the politicians,, Mushroom cloud,, ties to Al quaeda,, WMDs,,, are presented to the American Media and into the minds of the American people,, spinning truths that put pressure on the politicians that truly need campaign contributions which as we all know softens the minds of everyone,, and drives America into Bagdad....

America had done been at war with them so it wasn't that hard of an ordeal to tie 9/11 to Iraq,, to get the American people on board,, promising lower gas prices,, no cost for the war due to the oil revenues,, which we now know as total bullshit.

Now American companies along with Saudi companies are in Iraq,,

Mission Accomplished,, the question is,, how does the American people feel about this,??,, does it all really matter to most Americans?? I guess its all about where your at in America,,,what is your perspective , if you were effected personally by 9/11,, if you have loved ones fighting in the wars....

If this is all true,, what I write here in this little essay,, do you now understand what America is thought of around the world?

Do you really blame people for wanting money? Riches?

Lets just say I am one who thinks the American people deserve a bigger cut,, than whats being offered,, I believe the American voters who put these people in power deserve to be included in these new war-time riches,, everyone deserves a raise for voting these greedy politicians and business people into positions

of power,, I mean,, without us,,none of this was even close to being possible..

These politicians we elected are representing corporations,, not people,, all these wedge issues are merely cons to get votes,, think about it,, the people come second,,, voting for politicians because they agree with you on a certain wedge issue is like voting for the person who just burglarized your home while you were sleeping,,,

America needs to wake up!!@
Dewey2Me1MoThyme
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by Dewey2Me1MoThyme »

Roflmao @ O/p
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

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Post by DrJ »

Dewey2Me1MoThyme;940653 wrote: Roflmao @ O/p


I think it's got potential,,

with some more details,, names,, faces,,

Its a work in progress,,,c'mon man :yh_glasse

Back up Charlie Wilson!!!:yh_money

:yh_rotfl
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

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Post by DrJ »

fuzzy butt;940669 wrote: One thing that puts this all to rest ......................Osama said "yep we did it. "



Okay maybe in the western world it was made to look like this .........who knows?

give it 50 years before classified info becomes apparent and you'll know. only time will tell.

In a court of law? we may be seeing injustices, maybe not .....but unfortunetly American politics as they stand at the moment are insular and corrupt. We can't trust them either.

I only have one question . why is it that you gave us back one of "your" terrorists? why are our politicians playing it down ? why do we think he's not such a threat? ?????? What the heck is going on here?

I havent read through most of the OP but i do have my own questions.


Put yourself in the families place,, those that survived,, would you want to wait 50 yrs to find out who killed your loved ones?

Their perspective is what I believe is unfair,,, closure is a valuable thing to those that buried loved ones,,, but it sure would be nice if it all was summed up by OBL telling them,,,Yep,,we did it,,,

Who is "we" anyway,,, I'm not sure anymore..

I think the crime of this century is the fact that there isn't more outrage at the lack of government info,, or even the fact he's still free..

Someone needs to be held accountable,,, I believe...

Speak of the devil,,,hey teach!!
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

fuzzy butt;940683 wrote: So anwer my question.............why did you give us back "Hicks'

Why did pressure from our government make you guys hand him over .?


Who is hicks?,,Who is you guys? :-3

Excuse me,, I'm a little slow,,, this is one huge puzzle with many many pieces,,

Please explain the Hicks connection,,have a link?

Was he at Guantanamo?

They took anybody down there,, there were pediatricians taken prisoner by the military,

you know the need for profiling in a wartime situation...

Data mining people is one way of making sure no one is missed I'd have to believe..

That means innocent people are swept up as well..

I have to say this puzzle is interesting because of the mistrust of any part of it,, in the minds of those trying to put it together,, what I mean is,, some aren't sure if some of the guilty aren't payed off and let go,, tyvm for your service type deal,, makes the story interesting,, to me..

I FOUND IT!!!

Pre-trial agreement and sentence

Wikinews has related news:

First Guantánamo Bay prisoner sentencedOn 26 March 2007, following negotiations with Hicks's defense lawyers, the convening authority Judge Susan Crawford directly approved the terms of a pre-trial agreement.[100] The agreement stipulated that Hicks enter a guilty plea to a single charge of providing material support for terrorism in return for a guarantee of a much shorter sentence than had been previously sought by the prosecution. The agreement also stipulated that the 5 years already spent by Hicks at Guantanamo Bay could not be subtracted from any sentence handed down, that Hicks must not speak to the media for one year nor take legal action against the United States, and that Hicks withdraw allegations that the U.S. military abused him. Accordingly, in the first ever conviction by the Guantanamo military tribunal and the first conviction in a U.S. war crimes trial since World War II, on 31 March, the tribunal handed down a seven year jail sentence for the charge, suspending all but 9 months.[101][102][103]

Australian and US critics speculated that the one-year media ban was a condition requested by the Australian government and granted as a political favour. Senator Bob Brown of the Australian Greens said, "America's guarantee of free speech under its constitution would have rendered such a gag illegal in the U.S."[104] The Australian government denied that the media ban had anything to do with itself or the nearing 2007 Australian federal election,[105][106] with Australian Prime Minister John Howard saying "We did not impose the sentence, the sentence was imposed by the military commission and the plea bargain was worked out between the military prosecution and Mr Hicks's lawyers, and the suggestion ... that it's got something to do with the Australian election is absurd." Brigadier-General Thomas Hemingway, the legal adviser to the military tribunal convening authority, has since claimed the gag order as his idea.[107] Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock stated that Australian law would not prohibit Hicks from speaking to media, although Hicks would be prevented from selling his story.[108]

The Law Council of Australia reported that the trial was "a contrived affair played out for the benefit of the media and the public", "designed to lay a veneer of due process over a political and pragmatic bargain", serving to corrode the rule of law. They referred to government support for the military tribunal process as shameful.[109]

The length of the sentence caused an "outcry" in the United States and against Defense Department lawyer Susan Crawford, who allegedly bypassed the prosecution in order to meet an agreement with the defense made before the trial. Chief prosecutor Colonel Davis was unaware of the plea deal and surprised at the nine-month sentence, telling The Washington Post "I wasn't considering anything that didn't have two digits," meaning a sentence of at least 10 years.[110]

Ben Wizner of the American Civil Liberties Union described the case as "an unwitting symbol of our shameful abandonment of the rule of law".[111]



[edit] Political manipulation claims

Pentagon chief prosecutor Colonel Morris Davis resigned from the US defence force on 5 October 2007 citing dissatisfaction with the Guantanamo military commission process. Davis alleged that the process had become highly politicised and that he had felt "pressured to do something less than full, fair and open".[112][113][114]

In November 2007, allegations from an anonymous U.S. military officer, that a high-level political agreement had occurred in the Hicks case, were reported. The officer said that "one of our staffers was present when Vice-President Cheney interfered directly to get Hicks's plea bargain deal. He did it apparently, as part of a deal cut with Howard". Australian Prime Minister John Howard denied any involvement in Hicks's plea bargain.[102][103]

In 2008, Colonel Davis elaborated on his earlier criticisms, saying that the Hicks trial was flawed and appeared rushed for the political benefit of the Howard government in Australia. Davis said of his former superiors that "there is no question they wanted me to stage show trials that have nothing to do with the centuries-old tradition of military justice in America". On 28 April 2008, while testifying at a pre-trial hearing at Guantanamo for Salim Hamdan, Colonel Davis said that he had "inherited" the Hicks case but did not consider it serious enough to warrant prosecution.[8][115][2][116][117]



[edit] Repatriation and release

Wikinews has related news:

David Hicks transferred from Guantanamo Bay to Australian prisonOn 20 May 2007 Hicks arrived at RAAF Base Edinburgh in Adelaide, South Australia on a chartered flight reported to have cost the Australian government over $ 500,000. Attorney-General Philip Ruddock asserted that this arrangement was the consequence of US restrictions on the transit of Hicks through US airspace or territory preventing the use of less expensive commercial flights.[32][118] Hicks was taken to Adelaide's Yatala Labour Prison where he was kept in solitary confinement in the state's highest-security ward, G Division.[119]

Hicks was released on 29 December 2007 and placed under a control order obtained by the Australian federal police earlier that month. The order required Hicks to not leave Australia, to report to a police station three times a week, and to use only an AFP-approved mobile phone SIM card.[120] On 19 February 2008 he was given special dispensation by federal magistrate Warren Donald to leave South Australia. On 20 February 2008, Hicks moved to Abbotsford, New South Wales. A curfew between 1:00am and 5:00am was imposed.[121]



He might have been a double agent,, or he was going to be able to sue our government,,one or the other!! the possibilities are many,, but the above is the official story!!

I liked the Dick Cheney connection,,, double agent,,messenger man,, unbelievable!~!!
DrJ
Posts: 346
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America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

DrJ wrote:

You like Apples?



Now I'm waiting to hear the new name for alqeada in the CIA's secret war with Russia,,,Team mates once again,,, just like before in Afghanistan...

Georgia,,, being the new battle ground,,,

Terrorism has been a friend to some American Corporations whenever needed,,,

This is a dangerous world!

Be Afraid,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Be Afraid,,, is the message...

Vote Republican!!!:yh_rotfl

How you like them apples?




I think ol' Cheney might have one left in him,, or they believe the ol,"Alqeada"

just ain't cuttin' it anymo,,,,

We need a new bad guy,,,, to duck the second wave of a certain blue Tsunami,, getting ready to roll on America,,,

Ya think the Atomic Bomb ain't on it's way back?

Thatz how we roll in the NEW WORLD ORDER,,,

Just wait!!:guitarist
DrJ
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 9:10 pm

America Had Better Wake Up!!!

Post by DrJ »

Are you ready for this?

facts wrote:

September 11, 2008

White House Claims Osama Not 9/11 Mastermind

By Cernig

Who would have thought that on the day before the anniversary of 9/11, a White House press spokesperson would seek to redefine seven years of the war on terror just to flatter the White House's failure? That even this unmitigated disaster of an administration would have such gall? Yet, here we have it.

A reporter asked White House Press Secretary Dana Perino about the administration’s ongoing efforts to find the “mastermind” of 9/11, Osama binLaden. Perino interrupted the reporter, claiming binLaden was not the true “mastermind” of the attacks:

Q But Osama binLaden is the one that — you keep talking about his lieutenants, and, yes, they are very important, but Osama binLaden was the mastermind of 9/11 –

PERINO: No, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the mastermind of 9/11, and he’s sitting in jail right now.

Perino also said “So there are human limitations to any — this is not the movies, we don’t have superpowers,” perhaps suggesting that's what it would take to catch Bin Laden.

(So now we know what John McCain's secret plan is - he's going to put his underpants on outside his pantyhose...)

As (Sgt.) Rock Richard says at VetVoice:



What happens when you can't catch the bad guy? You just decide he isn't the bad guy anymore, since you already caught the bad guy. Everybody wins!

And, perhaps as expected, the Associated Press swallows it whole and doesn't even burp, citing unquestioningly Perino's description of KSM as usurping binLaden's original place as mastermind and taking her at her word that it would need superpowers to catch the Al Qeada head despite the failure at Tora Bora.

Update: Larisa notes that 9/11 isn't even mentioned by the CIA on Osama's wanted poster.

It just says:

"Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world."




I think that about covers it,,,,
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

dubs;921348 wrote: I really would read all this, if it wasn't for my notoriously short attention span..:thinking:


No points in the FERRARI camp at Singapore then? :wah::wah::wah:
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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