Wasting Your Vote

Discuss Presidential or Prime Minister elections for all countries here.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

RedGlitter;934920 wrote: I propose that people start voting with their conscience, even if they think it's a stupid thing to do. I don't think a change will happen overnight because the entire system needs overhauled and I hate to be cliche, but "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." If we could get some people used to voting this way, more people would be willing to do the same and it would grow.



A lot of people spout the rhetoric about wasting one's vote simply because that's what they've been told. They've never really bothered to think about it for themselves.









I see it differently. I think the only way it will change is by leaving it up to individuals. I think what's needed is the backbone to do what's right and stand up for what one believes in. Maybe that's me being an idealist, but I think voting for someone you don't believe in is the same as lying.



People who are saying " Yeah it sounds good but...." are the holdup in my opinion. If they keep waiting until everybody else does it it'll never get done. They'll just continue to keep the change from being implemented while the few of us dissenters (ha) do what we can to voice our opinion.
:yh_clap :yh_clap The few dissenters that speak up give others the courage to speak. Before long the voice of dissent is loud and strong.
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Post by K.Snyder »

RedGlitter;934950 wrote: K, how would you propose to make that orchestration come to fruition?


A complete change of mentality associated with voting...Which realistically to my mind is for 1)People to lose the labels associated with peoples running for President...It's far too easy for people to not vote Republican because they've always coincidentally enough held the same beliefs of the democrats before them or vica-versa...2) Making it mandatory by law to not allow money to dictate prestige, rather let the candidates beliefs dictate their campaign by virtue of donation...3)Holding numerous primaries beginning a year earlier than normally implemented for reasoning of elimination...

I'm sure there could be other things implemented but upon the first couple of elections in this manner I think it would change the mindsets of a great number of people in voting for others contrary to the "big two"...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934957 wrote: :yh_clap :yh_clap The few dissenters that speak up give others the courage to speak. Before long the voice of dissent is loud and strong.


Yes but it hasn't happened for the past two hundred years...
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;934944 wrote: I say that the only chance at changing voting for the big two is a mass orchestration put together to emphasize true desire through voting for whom they feel is for the betterment of the majority whereas those opposed feel it will only change by individuals voting for who they feel is for the betterment of the majority leading to the convincing of others...



What's left is to see which prevails...
Another thing that's left is to get off the sidelines and change what needs changing.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934948 wrote: So you have a definite fave between the two annointed ones? Which one do you see as better?

Take a peek in the mirror, K. YOU'RE A PEOPLE! Why not be an agent for change instead of waiting?


I've never said I were even voting in the upcoming elections...

And for the record my not voting does not dictate my right to complain...

The day I'm aloud to prove my laws indoctrinated by that of my own virtue related to self integrity is the day my not voting gives me no right to complain...

I am within a country that imposes laws upon myself therefore I have every right to complain about that country voting or no voting...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934962 wrote: Another thing that's left is to get off the sidelines and change what needs changing.


What do you propose?...

And I am changing more issues by voting for one of the big two who will be voted in office contrary to the votes that go ineffective related to voting for candidates running for President to whom have no more of a chance getting in than Boo Boo...
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;934961 wrote: Yes but it hasn't happened for the past two hundred years...
You would've made a fine emancipationist. So what it hasn't happened yet?? That's a reason to give up? It hasn't changed because we haven't changed it, not because it's impervious to change.
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;934963 wrote: I've never said I were even voting in the upcoming elections...



And for the record my not voting does not dictate my right to complain...



The day I'm aloud to prove my laws indoctrinated by that of my own virtue related to self integrity is the day my not voting gives me no right to complain...



I am within a country that imposes laws upon myself therefore I have every right to complain about that country voting or no voting...
Absolutely you have a right to complain. You also have a right to change your mind.
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;934966 wrote: What do you propose?...



And I am changing more issues by voting for one of the big two who will be voted in office contrary to the votes that go ineffective related to voting for candidates running for President to whom have no more of a chance getting in than Boo Boo...
But you said you're not voting for either of the big two, or anyone else, so you're changing no issues at all.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934968 wrote: You would've made a fine emancipationist. So what it hasn't happened yet?? That's a reason to give up? It hasn't changed because we haven't changed it, not because it's impervious to change.


No not at all...

I've already said that I am all for the end result from which you are...

But your saying,.."Before long the voice of dissent is loud and strong." implies that this holds baring to emphatic change...

I then said "it hasn't happened in the past two hundred years" which illustrates my belief that it's not going to happen soon based on the fact that it hasn't happened in over two hundred years...

Simple statement...

What do you feel is acceptable criterion related to the change we speak of?...For myself I would consider now but we both already know that's not the case...Now being the primary cause for my belief in..."I say that the only chance at changing voting for the big two is a mass orchestration put together to emphasize true desire through voting for whom they feel is for the betterment of the majority"...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934971 wrote: But you said you're not voting for either of the big two, or anyone else, so you're changing no issues at all.


No...I didn't...I just said that I never had said I were even voting...

As of yet I'm undecided...

For the record I thought Mike Huckabee was a good candidate...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934969 wrote: Absolutely you have a right to complain. You also have a right to change your mind.


Sure...
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;934973 wrote: What do you feel is acceptable criterion related to the change we speak of...For myself I would consider now but we both already know that's not the case...Now being the primary cause for my belief in..."I say that the only chance at changing voting for the big two is a mass orchestration put together to emphasize true desire through voting for whom they feel is for the betterment of the majority"...
I often have trouble following you but I'm getting better. The time for change is always now. Always. Too many people wait for someone else to get the ball rolling. Come around on this side and push. :)
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Post by RedGlitter »

K.Snyder;934975 wrote: No...I didn't...I just said that I never had said I were even voting...

As of yet I'm undecided...

For the record I thought Mike Huckabee was a good candidate...


Why would you consider not voting?
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Post by K.Snyder »

RedGlitter;934981 wrote: Why would you consider not voting?


I never said I wasn't going to vote...:wah:
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Post by RedGlitter »

k.snyder;934984 wrote: i Never Said I Wasn't Going To Vote...:wah:


no...i Didn't...i Just Said That I Never Had Said I Were Even Voting...

As Of Yet I'm Undecided...


'k.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934979 wrote: I often have trouble following you but I'm getting better. The time for change is always now. Always. Too many people wait for someone else to get the ball rolling. Come around on this side and push. :)


Very well...

Do you propose anything for change related to now?...

I personally see now as being significantly better than allowing individuals to change it...Considering that I feel that individuals left to change the problem we have with voting for the "big two" hasn't happened even remotely close in over two hundred years...I mean I love my family as much as I would love for my closest immediate family to benefit from such a drastic change...
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Post by K.Snyder »

RedGlitter;934986 wrote: 'k.


What does that mean?...:wah:...

I was just making a statement...

To answer your question the only way I would consider not voting is if I felt all parties involved were of absolutely no benefit to the majority of society...
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Post by RedGlitter »

K.Snyder;934984 wrote: I never said I wasn't going to vote...:wah:


K.Snyder;934989 wrote: What does that mean?...:wah:...

I was just making a statement...

To answer your question the only way I would consider not voting is if I felt all parties involved were of absolutely no benefit to the majority of society...


Is that not throwing one's vote away?
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Post by K.Snyder »

RedGlitter;934993 wrote: Is that not throwing one's vote away?


No...It's not voting for 100% wickedness...

Throwing a vote away is throwing a vote away that could have potentially helped the person to whom you're voting for benefit society by virtue of divine happening...At the same time voting for 100% wickedness to whom does not benefit one iota of society is throwing your vote away...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934954 wrote: I'm figuratively whacking you over the head with the Declaration of Independence, then bouncing a quarter off your thick skull! (with love, 'cause I really like you, K). Read the coin. E Pluribu Unum Out of many, one. Guess what the many are, K. INDIVIDUALS, that's what. Individuals just like you. How many of the signers of the Declaration looked around and said "Once you get a majority to sign, come see me." NONE, that's how many. If anyone said that they got left behind. Thank God that's not the only kind of people we had back then, and it's not the only kind of people we have now.



You get to choose what kind of individual you want to be, K.


I understand that...

We agree on the same things...

What we differ in is in how the change is going to take place, ultimately leading to my belief that voting for the "lesser of two evils" is acceptable until what I feel the only appropriate course of change is aspired...

I've brought some of my thoughts to the table in how we can make the change...
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;934988 wrote: Very well...



Do you propose anything for change related to now?...



I personally see now as being significantly better than allowing individuals to change it...Considering that I feel that individuals left to change the problem we have with voting for the "big two" hasn't happened even remotely close in over two hundred years...I mean I love my family as much as I would love for my closest immediate family to benefit from such a drastic change...
Good. We're making progress. Our system is run by political parties. No getting around that no matter how much our founders were against it. So to change the system relatively quickly means a different party has to steal the show - just like the Whigs, just like the Democratic-Republicans, just like the Republicans (for better or worse but that's a different thread).



I'm throwing my vote behind the Libertarian party because they claim to support more of the issues I believe in than any other party. http://www.lp.org/



I'm voting for the party at every available level by default, meaning unless another candidate is clearly the better candidate. As they win more lower-level positions they become more viable to the average voter. No matter which one of the Republicrats gets into office this time, I think it will be good for the Libertarian party in the long run.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;935008 wrote: Good. We're making progress. Our system is run by political parties. No getting around that no matter how much our founders were against it. So to change the system relatively quickly means a different party has to steal the show - just like the Whigs, just like the Democratic-Republicans, just like the Republicans (for better or worse but that's a different thread).



I'm throwing my vote behind the Libertarian party because they claim to support more of the issues I believe in than any other party. http://www.lp.org/



I'm voting for the party at every available level by default, meaning unless another candidate is clearly the better candidate. As they win more lower-level positions they become more viable to the average voter. No matter which one of the Republicrats gets into office this time, I think it will be good for the Libertarian party in the long run.


Your emphasis primarily then is to educate the average voter politically as opposed to changing their perception that each individual person running for office is a better representative than the party as a whole...

I have to say coincidentally enough this has been a reasonable assessment but I feel it prevents the possibility of third parties winning office because it constitutes party mentality as opposed to concerns related to individual issues...

I've been largely democrat my entire life but was hoping that Huckabee would win the primaries and ultimately the Presidency...
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;935013 wrote: Your emphasis primarily then is to educate the average voter politically as opposed to changing their perception that each individual person running for office is a better representative than the party as a whole...



I have to say coincidentally enough this has been a reasonable assessment but I feel it prevents the possibility of third parties winning office because it constitutes party mentality as opposed to concerns related to individual issues...



I've been largely democrat my entire life but was hoping that Huckabee would win the primaries and ultimately the Presidency...
Nothing is prevented; it's only difficult.



I don't like party politics, but even if parties were outlawed they'd spring up under a different name.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;935023 wrote: Nothing is prevented; it's only difficult.



I don't like party politics, but even if parties were outlawed they'd spring up under a different name.


Perhaps you're right...

But at least without the labeling the public wouldn't be so willing to cancel out others' propositions...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;934968 wrote: You would've made a fine emancipationist.


I would have locked everyone up proven to be for the enslavement of any peoples for the remainder of their natural born life.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

K.Snyder;934966 wrote: What do you propose?...

And I am changing more issues by voting for one of the big two who will be voted in office contrary to the votes that go ineffective related to voting for candidates running for President to whom have no more of a chance getting in than Boo Boo...


Can you explain that one to me? It really escapes me how you're doing that.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Bryn Mawr;935128 wrote: Can you explain that one to me? It really escapes me how you're doing that.


Changing issues that are done for the better by those to whom I help vote into office rather than the contrary of those not elected...One, from which I'm referring to specifically, being the third party candidates that do not have any more chance in being voted for President, to change issues for the greater, than Boo Boo bear himself...

The downside to this always being the potential for having been lied to or for the candidate to whom you've voted for veered from the promises they have made and setting their own agenda for the worse...

It's up to in how much good or bad is come of it upon those who may or may not feel guilty upon such events...I myself do not take blame for what it is others do...Because I will not vote for one that has at any time not illustrated quite clearly his preference for changing government for the betterment not only to society, but for humanity...
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Post by Accountable »

Keeping the Democratic-Republican monopoly in federal government means business as usual. If you're cool with that, fine. If you're not, voting for a different Democratic-Repulican only changes faces, not directions.



Voting Democrat or Republican keeps us going toward the same destination, only changes which lane we're driving on.
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Post by YZGI »

Jester;935817 wrote: Make you a deal... I will vote for the a third party presidential candidiate of my choosing if you give me your word you will vote for anyone you want except an incumbant in all elections for the next four years.



Clear house, start over.
I agree with this Jester, I have been voting anti-incumbent for about 4-5 years now.
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Post by YZGI »

Jester;935829 wrote: Its a new deal to me kinda, in CA I have never voted for an incumbant. Wont do it either...



I'll go one step further too and not vote for any incumbant or major party candidate either...



And Im gettign ready to voice it in my town and I'm going full bore.
An old geezer I deer hunt with convinced me a few years ago, I try and make my point to family and friends when they will listen..
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Post by Accountable »

Jester;935829 wrote: Its a new deal to me kinda, in CA I have never voted for an incumbant. Wont do it either...



I'll go one step further too and not vote for any incumbant or major party candidate either...



And Im gettign ready to voice it in my town and I'm going full bore.
:yh_clap :yh_clap WOOT! WOOT! That's the way to do it! I'm with ya. :yh_clap :yh_clap
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Post by RedGlitter »

Wow! I was just gonna peek in here and see what was going on- am I surprised and pleased!! :-6
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Post by qsducks »

I'm voting for Kevin Costner from "Swing Vote":wah:
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

K.Snyder;935163 wrote: Changing issues that are done for the better by those to whom I help vote into office rather than the contrary of those not elected...One, from which I'm referring to specifically, being the third party candidates that do not have any more chance in being voted for President, to change issues for the greater, than Boo Boo bear himself...

The downside to this always being the potential for having been lied to or for the candidate to whom you've voted for veered from the promises they have made and setting their own agenda for the worse...

It's up to in how much good or bad is come of it upon those who may or may not feel guilty upon such events...I myself do not take blame for what it is others do...Because I will not vote for one that has at any time not illustrated quite clearly his preference for changing government for the betterment not only to society, but for humanity...


So by voting for the winner you're expecting them to act for the betterment of the people.

I would suggest that both parties have a history of acting for the betterment of their own party and having veered from the promises they made when setting their agenda.

Only by putting pressure on those parties can the people make them work for the electorate and keep their promises.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;935827 wrote: But there is another factor as well.. if we do get a third party candidate by some wild stretch when folks vote thier heart and we dont change the incumbants (ALL OF THEM) then they will just dog the third party candidate to be a lame president.

We have to change it ALL AT ONCE.


You don't actually need to elect an independent and voting for the best candidate is not restricted to the Presidential election (indeed, to be effective, it must be in all elections).

Once the main parties realise that it is not a foregone conclusion that a demoblican will be elected and that there is a groundswell of opinion against them they will stop taking the punters so much for granted and start paying a bit more attention to their wishes.

As long as they don't need to give a damn they won't give a damn.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;935936 wrote: Thast not enough though... the special interest and lobbyists heed to be sent a message too...


If the main parties are aware that they cannot ignore the electorate any more then the lobbyists will be less able to dictate changes in policy - the message will get through.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;936098 wrote: Nah you dont get me...

When the lobbyist who've coma calling on the incumbants for many years suddenly have to start courting new politicians it will shake things up even more.

I'm gonna declare 'open season' on paid lobbyists.


Where do I apply for a licence?
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;935294 wrote: Keeping the Democratic-Republican monopoly in federal government means business as usual. If you're cool with that, fine. If you're not, voting for a different Democratic-Repulican only changes faces, not directions.



Voting Democrat or Republican keeps us going toward the same destination, only changes which lane we're driving on.


Yes...Like a runaway train...Only what I'm doing is trying to slow it down...By throwing your vote away(I'm not trying to offend anyone but for anyone to tell me they truly feel as if the third party candidate to whom they're are voting for, hypothetically speaking, has a legitimate chance of winning they're just fooling themselves) you're doing nothing but kicking your feet up in the engine room waiting to plunge in to the dead end...

Obviously jumping off would be moving to Canada...
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Post by K.Snyder »

Bryn Mawr;935914 wrote: So by voting for the winner you're expecting them to act for the betterment of the people.

I would suggest that both parties have a history of acting for the betterment of their own party and having veered from the promises they made when setting their agenda.

Only by putting pressure on those parties can the people make them work for the electorate and keep their promises.


Absolutely...

If you have any suggestions on how we could make third party candidacy more prevalent I would be more than happy to help...

Keep in mind this means the convincing of a rather significantly large group of people at once...I could vote on third party candidates but I would sincerely die before one received 40% of the votes let alone win the Presidency...And I'm 26 years old...
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Post by gmc »

K.Snyder;936313 wrote: Absolutely...

If you have any suggestions on how we could make third party candidacy more prevalent I would be more than happy to help...

Keep in mind this means the convincing of a rather significantly large group of people at once...I could vote on third party candidates but I would sincerely die before one received 40% of the votes let alone win the Presidency...And I'm 26 years old...


Proportional representation. Haven't a clue how you could work it in the states but it would make a real difference here where we tend to end up with a kind of political mafia. We (in scotland i mean) have it for local elections and for the scottish parliament, finally the stranglehold the labour mafia have had for decades has been broken making things more interesting. If introduced for UK elections it would have a major impact instead of always having minority governments we might get a better balance of forces.

My understanding is that the democratic candidate was selected by a form of proportional representation which is one of the main reasons it has been such a sea change. Although how true that is I don't know. Be interested in your comments.
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Post by K.Snyder »

gmc;936330 wrote: Proportional representation. Haven't a clue how you could work it in the states but it would make a real difference here where we tend to end up with a kind of political mafia. We (in scotland i mean) have it for local elections and for the scottish parliament, finally the stranglehold the labour mafia have had for decades has been broken making things more interesting. If introduced for UK elections it would have a major impact instead of always having minority governments we might get a better balance of forces.

My understanding is that the democratic candidate was selected by a form of proportional representation which is one of the main reasons it has been such a sea change. Although how true that is I don't know. Be interested in your comments.


I'm of the mind that these locally appointed governances tend to have more free reign of the locals within their districts which is probably why they're so susceptible to corruption...

The individual states here can be comparable to that only the federal law serves as the be all and end all jurisprudence of law...There are different laws associated with each but nothing substantial enough for anyone to feel there's enough cause to manipulate it purely to benefit from it, although I'm sure it happens...

Proportional representation seems to me to be much like cooperate ownership...Which would also lead to more corruption so long as the one with the majority of the say so can be manipulated...

We have the House of Representatives and the Senate both sort of counterbalancing the two...I may be misunderstanding proportional representation...

But personally I think Obama was selected by form of corruption intertwined within the Republican congregate but hey that's just me...

McCain wins 2008 via rigged election...Speculation of "America not ready for African-American President with Muslim background", so as to mitigate question...
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Post by Accountable »

K.Snyder;936311 wrote: Yes...Like a runaway train...Only what I'm doing is trying to slow it down...By throwing your vote away(I'm not trying to offend anyone but for anyone to tell me they truly feel as if the third party candidate to whom they're are voting for, hypothetically speaking, has a legitimate chance of winning they're just fooling themselves) you're doing nothing but kicking your feet up in the engine room waiting to plunge in to the dead end...



Obviously jumping off would be moving to Canada...
Yes, Jester & I had the same conversation. You're trying to slow it down but it's still headed in the same direction! I'd rather try to kick the engineer out. People see it as a runaway train, but it's more like a bus that can be steered wherever we want. All we need is a non-union driver.
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Post by K.Snyder »

Accountable;936448 wrote: Yes, Jester & I had the same conversation. You're trying to slow it down but it's still headed in the same direction! I'd rather try to kick the engineer out. People see it as a runaway train, but it's more like a bus that can be steered wherever we want. All we need is a non-union driver.


What we need is to not have to get on it in the first place...A runaway train that's already started...Those voting for the "lesser of two evils" are those trying to slow it down...The rest is irrelevant...

What we need is for a mass orchestration so that everyone knows not to get on it...The only thing that's happening is a very select few screaming at everyone to not get on it but no one can hear them because the numbers are stacked against them...

What we need is a new train...

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