They shoot cyclists don't they?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:30 am

Blooming heck, they take road safety to extremes in the states don't they

Police: Asheville Firefighter Shot Bicyclist - Greenville News Story - WYFF Greenville

ASHEVILLE, N.C. -- A driver, now identified as an Asheville firefighter, shot a bicycle rider because he was angry the man was riding with his child on a busy road, Asheville police said.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:30 am

What a nut-case.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:54 am

Good advert for wearing a helmet, eh?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:08 am

That is horrible, shooting a man on a bike!

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:40 am

OK, before I start, I am not defending the guy alright. He is obviously not thinking straight and needs help. Further, shooting the man in the head doesnâ€™t actually assist in the childâ€™s safety.

However, in his line of work I am sure that he has seen one too many kids killed in road accidents or killed due to seriously stupid things that parents or others do that put the kids at risk. He probably saw a serious potential for this child to be injured and reactedâ€¦. in his own crazy mind in the best interest of the child.

But yes, pulling a gun out and trying to shoot someone in the head is a little extreme.

I wonder if anyone knows the make and model of the bicycle helmet, I want oneâ€¦

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:09 am

Here in the USA we have bikers who are just as crazy as some gun owners. In my town, we have many miles of bike paths. One can bike from one end of town to the other and spend very little time on a city street. Yet, every year bikes get hit.

Written tests for a bike license might be one answer. Mandatory helmet laws?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:36 am

mikeinie;1226711 wrote: OK, before I start, I am not defending the guy alright. He is obviously not thinking straight and needs help. Further, shooting the man in the head doesnâ€™t actually assist in the childâ€™s safety.

However, in his line of work I am sure that he has seen one too many kids killed in road accidents or killed due to seriously stupid things that parents or others do that put the kids at risk. He probably saw a serious potential for this child to be injured and reactedâ€¦. in his own crazy mind in the best interest of the child.

But yes, pulling a gun out and trying to shoot someone in the head is a little extreme.

I wonder if anyone knows the make and model of the bicycle helmet, I want oneâ€¦

The guys clearly not stable. But it was the fact the helmet stopped a bullet that caught my eye-the link is from a cycle website. Wearing a bike helmet has probably saved my life at least once for sure and injury in a couple of others. It's one of these things I can't understand-people who do not wear a bike helmet. Cycle helmets are not mandatory here (for push bikes that is). The stupidity of otherwise intelligent people who cannot grasp the consequences of smacking your head on a hard pavement defies belief. It may be unlikely but once is all it takes. I go mountain biking and have come off a few times (including one spectacular cartwheel that smashed the helmet and left me stunned but in one piece) but I consider road cycling more dangerous since you are at the mercy of idiots in cars-or even just hitting a patch of diesel on a roundabout, you're just off with no chance to protect yourself. I mean you wouldn't head butt a concrete wall would you?

Post by **Peter Lake** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:19 am

gmc;1226742 wrote: The guys clearly not stable. But it was the fact the helmet stopped a bullet that caught my eye-the link is from a cycle website. Wearing a bike helmet has probably saved my life at least once for sure and injury in a couple of others. It's one of these things I can't understand-people who do not wear a bike helmet. Cycle helmets are not mandatory here (for push bikes that is). The stupidity of otherwise intelligent people who cannot grasp the consequences of smacking your head on a hard pavement defies belief. It may be unlikely but once is all it takes. I go mountain biking and have come off a few times (including one spectacular cartwheel that smashed the helmet and left me stunned but in one piece) but I consider road cycling more dangerous since you are at the mercy of idiots in cars-or even just hitting a patch of diesel on a roundabout, you're just off with no chance to protect yourself. I mean you wouldn't head butt a concrete wall would you? The reason why i forbid my wife to ever ride a motorbike again.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:36 am

Peter Lake;1226764 wrote: The reason why i forbid my wife to ever ride a motorbike again.

She's not stable:eek:

What you mean she can't keep her balance or she's, well, eccentric?

Post by **Peter Lake** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:06 am

gmc;1226774 wrote: She's not stable:eek:

What you mean she can't keep her balance or she's, well, eccentric? Just a very nasty accident when a speeding car forced her off the road and her helmet was split in half.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:56 am

gmc;1226742 wrote: The guys clearly not stable. But it was the fact the helmet stopped a bullet that caught my eye-the link is from a cycle website. Wearing a bike helmet has probably saved my life at least once for sure and injury in a couple of others. It's one of these things I can't understand-people who do not wear a bike helmet. Cycle helmets are not mandatory here (for push bikes that is). The stupidity of otherwise intelligent people who cannot grasp the consequences of smacking your head on a hard pavement defies belief. It may be unlikely but once is all it takes. I go mountain biking and have come off a few times (including one spectacular cartwheel that smashed the helmet and left me stunned but in one piece) but I consider road cycling more dangerous since you are at the mercy of idiots in cars-or even just hitting a patch of diesel on a roundabout, you're just off with no chance to protect yourself. I mean you wouldn't head butt a concrete wall would you?
Well, THAT fills in some blanks. :sneaky:

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:33 pm

Accountable;1226896 wrote: Well, THAT fills in some blanks. :sneaky: Yes and it has explained a lot to me also :sneaky:

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:26 pm

gmc;1226742 wrote: the fact the helmet stopped a bullet that caught my eye

You'll be lucky. I bet that the bullet went straight through the periphery of the thing, and continued going somewhere, but did not actually touch his head. Even a subsonic .22 bullet will go through a couple or three inches of wood. All this stuff you see on "Westerns" where people hide behind tables, doors, etc. and the bullets don't hit 'em is just fantasy, they'd go straight through. A polystyrene cycle helmet with its' slightly harder shell wouldn't stop something coming out of a Gat gun.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:54 pm

Oh dear blaming hte victim again.

lets take a moment to think about this . a man is riding his bike with his wife and child on a Sunday morning............This bloke comes along and to make a point about the safety of a child pulls a gun out?

Anyone else see a problem with this scenario?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:19 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1226956 wrote: Anyone else see a problem with this scenario?

Yes. The shooter is a nut-case, and needs to be put away immediately.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:36 pm

Bill Sikes;1226939 wrote: You'll be lucky. I bet that the bullet went straight through the periphery of the thing, and continued going somewhere, but did not actually touch his head. Even a subsonic .22 bullet will go through a couple or three inches of wood. All this stuff you see on "Westerns" where people hide behind tables, doors, etc. and the bullets don't hit 'em is just fantasy, they'd go straight through. A polystyrene cycle helmet with its' slightly harder shell wouldn't stop something coming out of a Gat gun.

They said the bullet penetrated the outer lining of the helmet but did not actually hit the victim's head.

They don't say what kind of gun it was but they do say the bullet penetrated the helmet but did not actually hit the victims head rather than pass through it without hitting the victims head or even narrowly missing the victims head. Even allowing for poor command of the english language it seems to indicate the helmet actually stopped the bullet. While knowing what kind of gun it was might be interesting knowing little about ballistics it would tell someone like myself very little. Thankfully being shot at is quite unlikely in the UK.

It might have been an air pistol for all we know-but being america that seems rather unlikely. I assume had the bullet passed through they would have said so. Bike helmets work on the same basic principle as a bullet proof vest in that they absorb and spread the force of an impact. They used to make bullet proof vests from silk which is also seems a rather unlikely material to stop a bullet. Mind you the bullet stopping capabilities of a bike helmet is probably not something anyone has bothered testing.

take your bike helmet, get a hammer and try smashing it to bits. You will be surprised what kind of impact it will actually withstand. It startling something so seemingly fragile is so effective.

posted by fuzzy wuzzy.

Oh dear blaming hte victim again.

lets take a moment to think about this . a man is riding his bike with his wife and child on a Sunday morning............This bloke comes along and to make a point about the safety of a child pulls a gun out?

Anyone else see a problem with this scenario?

Whose blaming the victim? The gunman is clearly a nutter. It was the helmet apparently absorbing the impact of a bullet I found striking (no pun intended).

Are american traffic wardens armed?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:13 pm

gmc;1227928 wrote: take your bike helmet, get a hammer and try smashing it to bits. You will be surprised what kind of impact it will actually withstand. It startling something so seemingly fragile is so effective.

No. That's rubbish, in context.

What is a bicycle helmet made of? Expanded polystyrene, with a thin layer of polycarbonate or similar over. It is designed to absorb the energy created when a lage heavy(?) object (a bicycle rider's head), moving slowly, collides with an immovable blunt object (a kerbstone). The expanded polystyrene is crushed by the impact, absorbing energy, and also spreads the load over a larger area.

A bullet (let's assume a 0.22 calibre subsonic (slow) one) is a far smaller point load.

Let's do some crude "ball park" arithmetic (e=1/2mvSquared):

Head: 5Kg=5000g@12MPH, energy = 360,000 units

Bullet = 0.005Kg= 5g@750MPH, energy = 1,406,250 units

.... and it's a point load.

To explain in even easier terms, get a cyclist, an assistant, a Pozidrive screwdriver, a shovel, and two identical helmets.

Stand up the cyclist, wearing a helmet. Hit him on the head, hard, with the flat of the shovel. When he's feeling better and can stand again, put the other helmet on. Get the assistant to hold the point of the screwdriver against the replacement helmet, and strike the handle of the screwdriver, hard, with the shovel. Your assistant will get a bruised hand. Your cyclist will be hospitalised, if he's very very lucky.

Note, this just demonstrates the difference in effect of a point load (the screwdriver tip) compared to a large area load (the flat of the shovel). It doesn't even involve the velocity of impact.

So. The article may only say that the bullet penetrated the helmet without hitting the victim's head - it may not say that the bullet exited the helmet - but to believe that a bicycle helmet will stop even a small, slow bullet is ridiculous.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:06 pm

Bill Sikes;1227958 wrote: No. That's rubbish, in context.

What is a bicycle helmet made of? Expanded polystyrene, with a thin layer of polycarbonate or similar over. It is designed to absorb the energy created when a lage heavy(?) object (a bicycle rider's head), moving slowly, collides with an immovable blunt object (a kerbstone). The expanded polystyrene is crushed by the impact, absorbing energy, and also spreads the load over a larger area.

A bullet (let's assume a 0.22 calibre subsonic (slow) one) is a far smaller point load.

Let's do some crude "ball park" arithmetic (e=1/2mvSquared):

Head: 5Kg=5000g@12MPH, energy = 360,000 units

Bullet = 0.005Kg= 5g@750MPH, energy = 1,406,250 units

.... and it's a point load.

To explain in even easier terms, get a cyclist, an assistant, a Pozidrive screwdriver, a shovel, and two identical helmets.

Stand up the cyclist, wearing a helmet. Hit him on the head, hard, with the flat of the shovel. When he's feeling better and can stand again, put the other helmet on. Get the assistant to hold the point of the screwdriver against the replacement helmet, and strike the handle of the screwdriver, hard, with the shovel. Your assistant will get a bruised hand. Your cyclist will be hospitalised, if he's very very lucky.

Note, this just demonstrates the difference in effect of a point load (the screwdriver tip) compared to a large area load (the flat of the shovel). It doesn't even involve the velocity of impact.

So. The article may only say that the bullet penetrated the helmet without hitting the victim's head - it may not say that the bullet exited the helmet - but to believe that a bicycle helmet will stop even a small, slow bullet is ridiculous.

To think that it will stop it may be - but to consider that it might deflect it sufficiently to miss the head is not unreasonable.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:34 am

Bill Sikes;1227958 wrote: No. That's rubbish, in context.

What is a bicycle helmet made of? Expanded polystyrene, with a thin layer of polycarbonate or similar over. It is designed to absorb the energy created when a lage heavy(?) object (a bicycle rider's head), moving slowly, collides with an immovable blunt object (a kerbstone). The expanded polystyrene is crushed by the impact, absorbing energy, and also spreads the load over a larger area.

A bullet (let's assume a 0.22 calibre subsonic (slow) one) is a far smaller point load.

Let's do some crude "ball park" arithmetic (e=1/2mvSquared):

Head: 5Kg=5000g@12MPH, energy = 360,000 units

Bullet = 0.005Kg= 5g@750MPH, energy = 1,406,250 units

.... and it's a point load.

To explain in even easier terms, get a cyclist, an assistant, a Pozidrive screwdriver, a shovel, and two identical helmets.

Stand up the cyclist, wearing a helmet. Hit him on the head, hard, with the flat of the shovel. When he's feeling better and can stand again, put the other helmet on. Get the assistant to hold the point of the screwdriver against the replacement helmet, and strike the handle of the screwdriver, hard, with the shovel. Your assistant will get a bruised hand. Your cyclist will be hospitalised, if he's very very lucky.

Note, this just demonstrates the difference in effect of a point load (the screwdriver tip) compared to a large area load (the flat of the shovel). It doesn't even involve the velocity of impact.

So. The article may only say that the bullet penetrated the helmet without hitting the victim's head - it may not say that the bullet exited the helmet - but to believe that a bicycle helmet will stop even a small, slow bullet is ridiculous.

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. Obviously I understand the difference between a blunt force impact and a sharp or high velocity object. But there are too many unknown -type of gun, distance from target angle of impact etc etc in the right circumstances it possibly could. It also depends which bit of the helmet it hit-some bits are two or three inches thick depending on the type of helmet. It would actually take considerable force to drive in a screwdriver. Try it if you don't believe me and you have an old helmet knocking around. I did actually experiment with a hammer, first a lump hammer but also a pin hammer out of curiosity having been impressed by the way the helmet had withstood the impact with only a big dent to show for it. I have seen people with them split in half. Without it I would probably be dead and I was also lucky didn't break my neck. I didn't try a screwdriver because it never occurred to me and after a while the novelty had worth thin.

But quite frankly I'm not that interested. Nor am I making recommending bike helmets as suitable wear in case some nutter shoots you. It was a novel report I found amusing.

many people find it hard to credit that a silk vest can stop a bullet as well, but made the right way it actually does. Come to that bullet proof vests are designed to absorb and spread the impact of a bullet. That a bike helmet could slow and stop the impact of a bullet in the right circumstances is possible imo.

Any American members got an old helmet they want to use for target practice?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:32 am

A new version of William Tell?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:36 am

Bullets don't always travel straight through things. Any little thing can cause a bullet to veer in another direction. A sloping surface will deflect bullets. Study military tanks of WW2.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:08 am

hoppy;1228129 wrote: Bullets don't always travel straight through things. Any little thing can cause a bullet to veer in another direction. A sloping surface will deflect bullets. Study military tanks of WW2.

pokey fragile looking things aren't they? Imagine going on to battle in a tank the germans called the tommy cooker.

Got a bike helmet you feel like shooting?