looking for a couple of people

User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Edwin Minchington born 1833 Mudford Somerset

Caroline James born Oct. 10 1830 Galhampton Somerset

Just on the off chance someone may know
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
JacksDad
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:00 pm

looking for a couple of people

Post by JacksDad »

Hello Ms. Flame. I see you are feeling awesome. I, like you, have become fed up with Facebook and decided to drop by and say hello.

:guitarist
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12164
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

looking for a couple of people

Post by LarsMac »

JacksDad;1515458 wrote: Hello Ms. Flame. I see you are feeling awesome. I, like you, have become fed up with Facebook and decided to drop by and say hello.

:guitarist


Facebook is like being stuck at the checkout counter, with nothing to read but the Tabloids.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
― Greg Bear, Darwin's Children
User avatar
JacksDad
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:00 pm

looking for a couple of people

Post by JacksDad »

Very true Lars. But I didn't mean to hijack the ladies post. Perhaps I should have started a new one.
User avatar
Lizzie
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:22 am

looking for a couple of people

Post by Lizzie »

good luck with your search :)
Hopeless optimist and irritating ray of sunshine!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

I've seen the thread but this Edwin Minchington and his wife are really really peculiar. I'll look again later.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

JacksDad;1515458 wrote: Hello Ms. Flame. I see you are feeling awesome. I, like you, have become fed up with Facebook and decided to drop by and say hello.

:guitarist


OMG!!!!!! JD!!!!!.....AHHHHH!!!! I thought you'd fallen off the face of the earth. Well im feeling awsome now!

Welcome back little buddy! Ms Flame? Ya cheeky bugger youve made my morning
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

spot;1515475 wrote: I've seen the thread but this Edwin Minchington and his wife are really really peculiar. I'll look again later.


They had one child apparently. Albert Ernest Minchington who married a Elizabeth Jane Vincent (born Prairie)
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

magentaflame;1515481 wrote: They had one child apparently. Albert Ernest Minchington who married a Elizabeth Jane Vincent (born Prairie)


I'd like to know which continent they did that on.





eta: Okay, the IGI index has that.



Albert Ernest Minchington

LDM5-1S7 ​



birth:

1869, Lethbridge, Victoria, Australia

death:

15 February 1911, Gowangardie, Victoria, Australia



spouse:



Elizabeth Jane Mary Vincent

LDM5-1JQ ​

father:



Edwin Munchington

LDMR-1TB ​

mother:



Caroline James

LVFZ-SVR ​
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

Edwin grew up at Mudford Sock (Somerset) and married in Castle Cary (Dorset).





1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

Sock, Mudford, Yeovil, Somerset, England

Learn more

Print transcription View image

Household Members

First name(s) . Last name . Gender . Age . Birth year . Birth place .

William . Minchington . Male . 35 . 1806 . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Fanny . Minchington . Female . 27 . 1814 . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Edwin . Minchington . Male . 7 . 1834 . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Lucy . Minchington . Female . 6 . 1835 . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Louisa . Minchington . Female . 4 . 1837 . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Eliza . Minchington . Female . 2 . 1839 . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Silvaney . Minchington . Male . 0 . 1841 . Somerset, England







1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

Mudford Sock, Mudford, Yeovil, Somerset, England

Learn more

Print transcription View image

Household Members

First name(s) . Last name . Relationship . Marital status . Gender . Age . Birth year . Occupation . Birth place .

William . Minchington . Head . Married . Male . 42 . 1809 . Ag Lab . Crewkerne, Somerset, England .

Transcription

Fanny . Minchington . Wife . Married . Female . 35 . 1816 . Glover . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Edwin . Minchington . Son . Unmarried . Male . 17 . 1834 . Ag Lab . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Lucy . Minchington . Daughter . Unmarried . Female . - . - . - . Somerset, England .

Transcription

Louisa . Minchington . Daughter . Unmarried . Female . 14 . 1837 . Glover . Mudford, Somerset, England .

Transcription

Silvanus . Minchington . Son . - . Male . 12 . 1839 . Ag Lab . Mudford, Somerset, England .

Transcription

William Wilton . Minchington . Son . - . Male . 8 . 1843 . Ag Lab . Mudford, Somerset, England .

Transcription

Mark . Minchington . Son . - . Male . 2 . 1849 . - . Mudford, Somerset, England .

Transcription

Philip . Minchington . Son . - . Male . 0 . 1851 . - . Mudford, Somerset, England





Somerset marriage index Transcription

Learn more

Print transcription

Spouse's birth year . 1830

Record set . Somerset Marriage Index

First name(s) . Edwin

Sex . Male

Last name . Minchington

Marriage year . 1853

Birth year . 1833

Spouse's first name(s) . Caroline

Spouse's last name . James

Parish . Castle Cary

Denomination . Anglican

County . Somerset

Country . England

Document type . Parish records

Page . 75

Age . 20

Marital status . bachelor

Residence . Rimpton

Occupation . Labourer

Marriage date . 19 Dec 1853

Spouse's age . 23

Spouse's marital status . spinster

Spouse's residence . Castle Cary

Father's name . William Minchington

Father's occupation . Labourer

Spouse's father's name . William James

Spouse's father's occupation . Labourer

First witness . Charles Laver

Second witness . Sarah James

Archive . Somerset Archives





They're not in the 1861 Census, they disappear entirely from the UK records.

Minchington may be the most widely mis-spelled surname in English.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Thats interesting you should say that. I was told that i was portugese from that line. Well....seems im not. Where they disapeared to? I believe portugal then America then Australia. All i know is that 'Albert' Edwins son is born in victoria. Albert being my great grandfather.

My very out of mind guess is, like a lot of people 'gold rush's'

Btw...youre a star for coming up with all that. I cant believe you got both williams (minch and james)......Silvaney/Silvanus is a doosy of a name , didbt expect that one.

Munchington?.....may have changed because of accent'?misheard?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

They could hardly write back in 1850, the Somerset accent can't have helped either.

Minchinton, without the G, happens. Munchington happens. Anything after the Minch is fair game.





eta: The Mudford Sock bit - Somerset is an extremely flat wet bit of the coast with artificial drains keeping the farmland out of the saltwater. The Sock is Somerset's way of saying Soak, it drains the fields.

Did you see Edwin's brother William Wilton is finished school and out working full-time on a farm, at 8?

And seeing JacksDad post again is good too, I'm pleased he's around.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

LarsMac;1515459 wrote: Facebook is like being stuck at the checkout counter, with nothing to read but the Tabloids.
Or a hetrosexual stuck in a gay porn shop.....youre curious to look but instinctively know youll be scarred for life.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

spot;1515501 wrote: They could hardly write back in 1850, the Somerset accent can't have helped either.

Minchinton, without the G, happens. Munchington happens. Anything after the Minch is fair game.





eta: The Mudford Sock bit - Somerset is an extremely flat wet bit of the coast with artificial drains keeping the farmland out of the saltwater. The Sock is Somerset's way of saying Soak, it drains the fields.

Did you see Edwin's brother William Wilton is finished school and out working full-time on a farm, at 8?

And seeing JacksDad post again is good too, I'm pleased he's around.


Hmmm.... see? Sitting at work trying not to fall asleep...ya learn stuff. Just been surfing somerset. Interesting place.

The children working thing i see everywhere in that century. Especially in Aus. Basically if an adult liked you they would teach you a few things, the basics. But if not?
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

magentaflame;1515506 wrote: Hmmm.... see? Sitting at work trying not to fall asleep...ya learn stuff. Just been surfing somerset. Interesting place.

The children working thing i see everywhere in that century. Especially in Aus. Basically if an adult liked you they would teach you a few things, the basics. But if not?


I cant see where it says hes working

Hmmm...just saw a pic of my great grandmother on the UK ancestry site. never seen her before.saw auntie gwen there two. I think theres a few ancestors there.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Okay now ive got a bug bare....and completely off topic.

Firstly....its against the law to ask someones race on application forms.

Ive filled out an application form that asked...." your ancestry"....isnt that the same thing? Because youd be putting down Asian, middle eastern, African, European, anglo saxon......ahh but wait.....apparently what ive been describing myself as a white person of british descent is wrong...unless of course my back ground is germanic. And im pretty sure its not. But who knows. Apparently there were people called Britons....which just led me into unconsciensously repeating a monty python sketch in real life. " the britons? Who are the britons"....which when i realised was pretty funny. So now im using my ancestry to study british history....a subject i found awfully boring at school...the medieval and tudors werent too bad though.

So.....whats my ancestry? For 229 years its been Australian.... but before that british....pick an island any island....
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

magentaflame;1515507 wrote: I cant see where it says hes working


William Wilton . Minchington . Son . - . Male . 8 . 1843 . Ag Lab . Mudford, Somerset, England



Agricultural Labourer, aged 8. As opposed to the conventional "Scholar" meaning still at school.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

magentaflame;1515518 wrote: So.....whats my ancestry? For 229 years its been Australian.... but before that british....pick an island any island....


What's now Great Britain had waves of immigration over the years. There were humans living in England a half million years ago but that entire population, and subsequent populations, were wiped out every time there was an ice age. The current aboriginal Britons arrived around 8,000 years ago into a completely depopulated land when the ice last retreated, they walked here across a land bridge from France/Germany because the sea level was perhaps 80 metres lower than now and Britain was just West Europe, because so much water was locked up in the retreating glaciers.

There were later arrivals: Anglo-Saxons (650AD) originated around the north of what's now Germany. They were quite like the Danes (900AD) from Denmark. We had Vikings from further north (850AD) and Normans (the North Men, Vikings who'd settled in Normandy in France for a couple of hundred years) in 1066.

The people these guys found already in England and Wales were the Britons, who were by then a mixture of the aboriginal chaps that built Stonehenge (3500BC) and the Celts from Switzerland (1200BC perhaps) and any leftover Romans (55AD). Those long-time residents ended up Welsh and Cornish from moving further west to make room for the newer post-Roman settlers.

Scotland and Ireland had even older settlers including the Picts, nobody has a clue when they arrived or what they looked like.

Since the Normans we've had further waves of settlers but not through conquest. There's Huguenots fleeing persecution in the 18th century, Jews fleeing persecution in the 19th century, Somalis fleeing persecution in the 20th century, it all adds to the mix.

None of this really affected Dorset and Somerset. People living in those counties when your Minchingtons left for Australia had been settled there since time immemorial without much migration at all, most of their ancestors will have been there since at least the 1300s. It's an agricultural backwater.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12164
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

looking for a couple of people

Post by LarsMac »

My relatives that were in Dorset and Somerset all headed West in the 17th Century.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
― Greg Bear, Darwin's Children
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Thank you very much for that concise rundown.......after i order books online!!!!!!!!

Well that makes sense.

I have two lines that i know already that go back to the 11th and 13th centuries. So much like my gravy, the plot thickens.

Oh this is very interesting. I know im a 'Pict'? And a 'Gaul'...... and now the Somerset thing. We obvioualy didnt do a lot of interbreeding with other races in my particular lines. As opposed to relatives that only interbred with Asians and islanders in the last 100 years.

This is actually very interesting.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Oh and on the UK ancestry site i found a pic of my great great grandmother that i didnt know excisted.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Here we go...if anyone could help me out please....i cant access the archives

Im looking for a grandmothers court records. Her name is either Hannah Bolton or Ann Moore or could be hannah bolton moore... who knows

She was tried at warwick assize on the 07 of august 1787 for burglary along with her associate Elizabeth Richards. Both were transported. On the lady juliana june 29 1789.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

I expect you've seen Ann – Hannah Moor, Convict Lady Juliana 1790Australian History Research

The assize records you want don't exist any longer. The Warwickshire County Crown & Gaol Books only run from 1818, the Indictments and Depositions from the 1860s.

Criminal trials in the English assize courts 1559-1971 - key to records - The National Archives
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Yeah, done all of that. Im writing a book. About her. So much stuff but i eoyld have liked who accused her. Witnesses etc. Oh well. I think i have enough dates voyage notes etc to begin......was just lacking the initial stuff. Why who etc. Of the initial condemnation of the two girls. (They ended up on the lady julianna....poor things.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Ill keep looking...there has to be a snippet of something.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 38225
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

looking for a couple of people

Post by spot »

Newspapers. I'll drop into the library, they allow access to the national 18thC newspaper search.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Elizabeth Chapman (Herbert)

Birthdate: September 27, 1799 (66)

Birthplace: Norfolk Island

Death: June 19, 1866 (66)

Kaiapoi, New Zealand

Immediate Family:

Daughter of John Alexander Herbert [Convict Scarborough 1788] and Hannah Herbert, convict "Lady Juliana" 1790

Wife of John William Chapman

Mother of Sarah Chapman, infant; James John Chapman; Thomas Brough Chapman; Ann Jane Chapman, infant; Jane Chapman and 2 others

Sister of Charlotte Herbert; Elizabeth Herbert, infant; James Herbert; Jemmima Flaherty and Ann Noble Foveaux Herbert



Rose, Ann Noble (1801–1837)

Ann Noble Foveaux Herbert's mother died about five months after her birth. She was baptised as Ann Noble Foveaux on 13 February 1803 at Norfolk Island. Her parents were listed as John Herbert and Hannah Moor. She left Norfolk Island as Ann Bolton with Joseph Foveaux aboard the Albion in September 1804 and was brought up in England by Foveaux and his future wife Mrs Ann Sherwin.

She married Samuel Rose at St Marylebone, Westminster, England on 20 May 1823.



Herbert, Hannah (1767–1801)

Hannah Bolton (alias Hannah/Anna Moore) was sentenced to seven years transportation for burglary in a house. She arrived in Sydney in 1789 aboard the Lady Juliana as part of the Second Fleet. Two months later she was was sent to Norfolk Island on the Surprize. As Ann Moore she married John Herbert in a mass marriage ceremony on Norfolk Island and by 1801 they had six children. It is thought that she is the Ann Moor who was buried on Norfolk Island in 1801.

Alternative Names

Bolton, Hannah

Moore, Hannah

Moore, Ann

Moor, Ann

Birth

1767

Warwickshire, England

Death

September 1801

Norfolk Island, Australia

Cause of Death

childbirth complications

Cultural Heritage

English

Passenger Ship

Lady Julianna (1790)

Occupation

convict

Key Events

Second Fleet (1789-90)

Goodyer, John Eli (1823–1908)

John Eli Goodyer was sentenced to life transportation for highway robbery. He arrived in Tasmania in 1839 aboard the Egyptian. He was described as being 5 feet 3 inches tall, with brown hair, hazel eyes, and had a freckled scar on his right arm. His occupation was farm labourer. His age at arrival was given as 17. He was granted a ticket of leave in 1847 and a conditional pardon in 1851. He had married Susanna Chapman in 1846.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Isn't it interesting that thanks to convict records we know what ancestors looked like two centuries ago....gosh they were short...not like my six foot something sons lol I'm an inch taller than him...but I guess that's malnutrition for you .
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Chapman, William (1792–1852)

William Chapman was sentenced to life imprisonment for stealing a sheep. He arrived in New South Wales aboard the Fortune in 1806. By 1811 he was living in Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania).



not sure if it was this one who escaped the noose twice or another ....



one of them got 35 lashes
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

looking for a couple of people

Post by Clodhopper »

one of them got 35 lashes


Ouch.

One thing that struck me is that people did come back here after serving their time, or their kids did, sometimes at least. It's not really something I'd thought about. I'd rather thought of Australia as a sort of oubliette ;)
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

It was for 'insubodination'... so he probably told someone to get ****ed i suppose. No history of theft or violence.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Around 70% of convicts returned. Obviously not the lifers, but my ancestors were sent out in their teens (yes it was deliberate) . So by the time they did their 7years or so they would have been used to their living standards. And the more you played the game the more reward you got. My ancestors got married almost immediately because it meant more food and tools and blankets etc. Also most had families back home. Women left husbands and children back in England.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

looking for a couple of people

Post by Clodhopper »

By our standards it was a barbaric age: If he'd done something they regarded as serious sentences got up into the hundreds of lashes regularly. They were done over days, giving time to heal a bit, in some cases.



If I have to guess I'd say he didn't actually say anything. I think he'd have got more than 35 lashes if he had. I'd guess his insubordination was something like making clear he didn't approve of something by attitude or maybe by muttering something not quite inaudible at most. But I am guessing.



The other thing is that it was an age of physical punishment. He probably didn't really stand out.



Yik.

edit: As much as 70%?!? That does surprise. As much for what they were going back to as anything else though family of course is a big pull. Hmm. Are there figures for people who came back to Blighty and then went back out to Australia by choice or by reoffending?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Clodhopper;1520084 wrote: By our standards it was a barbaric age: If he'd done something they regarded as serious sentences got up into the hundreds of lashes regularly. They were done over days, giving time to heal a bit, in some cases.





If I have to guess I'd say he didn't actually say anything. I think he'd have got more than 35 lashes if he had. I'd guess his insubordination was something like making clear he didn't approve of something by attitude or maybe by muttering something not quite inaudible at most. But I am guessing.



The other thing is that it was an age of physical punishment. He probably didn't really stand out.



Yik.

edit: As much as 70%?!? That does surprise. As much for what they were going back to as anything else though family of course is a big pull. Hmm. Are there figures for people who came back to Blighty and then went back out to Australia by choice or by reoffending?


not sure ....you see the interest in convict history was for awhile deliberately forgotten about ...you have to remember that to be called "australian " was actually an insult in the 1800's - 1900s.. For the times this would have played heavily on people . Shame would have been there . But also in a sense almost pride to have survived the system and therefore an indulgence in autonomy and a natural disrespect of authority. (southern cross flag and ballarat) when you have fathers remembering their grandfathers scars on their legs from the irons they wore (whilst those in England telling all and sundry how bad the slave trade was ..you know?)... it brings home how recent it was.

you can look up any of those names I've given and see for yourself who they are and which one did what ...in fact you can see my family tree. lol lol lol ...but we did good ..cause essentially they are good people in a **** situation..(maybe magistrates saw that? dunno. but my grandmother was sent as a breeder and that's exactly what she did .......

AND BEHOLD THE WORLD HAS ME!!!!
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

As far as the lashes go ...on Norfolk they had the surgeon and he would inspect if they were ...get this..always amazes me...done for, so as to stop or continue...just as the nazi a doctors decided. whatever happens in life you're sure it's been repeated somewhere else in another time
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

looking for a couple of people

Post by Clodhopper »

magentaflame;1520107 wrote: As far as the lashes go ...on Norfolk they had the surgeon and he would inspect if they were ...get this..always amazes me...done for, so as to stop or continue...just as the nazi a doctors decided. whatever happens in life you're sure it's been repeated somewhere else in another time


Yup. Horrifying, isn't it? It still happens now in some hellholes. I think the British Army only stopped flogging in the 1860s or thereabouts. The other thing that you have to get your head around is that the appointments of doctors (or whatever passed for one at the time) to attend punishments was because flogging was not meant to be a capital offence so doctors were there to make sure it wasn't. It wasn't, when it began, meant to be a way to prolong torture though that was the effect. Still horrible, but it was actually an advance if you look at it from the point of view of an age where corporal punishment was the norm and the way things had always been done and only a very few namby-pamby liberal types argued against it because having a doctor present was an attempt to make sure the law was not exceeded. That was an important idea at the time - no-one really cared before whether the law was exceeded or not. Sanity, sadly, was not considered.

There were exceptions to the flogging rule. If I remember right Admiral Sir Cuthbert Collingwood, who led one of the two wings of Nelson's navy that attacked the combined French and Spanish fleets at Trafalgar, rarely if ever flogged, but was known for reforming bad characters by what seems to have been sheer force of personality and what must have been some very good junior and non-commissioned officers. Apparently Nelson was known to have said, "Oh, send them to Collingwood!" when asked what to do with a particularly bad character on more than one occasion (and he was very fond of Collingwood). That is of course assuming the culprit hadn't done one of the many things that got you hung with no option of mercy available in the law of the time. General "Daddy" Hill was another.



I suppose it's something we have to credit the Victorians with, the move away from punishment as penalty only to the idea of reform of the prisoner. And perhaps inevitably the first moves in that direction look like little more than crude brutality. And on top of that, given what we now know about the way things end up happening, the levels of abuse in these places, whether prisons, orphanages, the military or colonies on the other side of the world must have been horrendous in all too many cases.

We are very lucky to be alive now, and where we are, rather than then.

edit: Flogging was only a military punishment I believe. Under the civil code people could be beaten, including women, and were but never with a cat o' nine tails. It was used in Australia because that was a penal colony under martial law at first I think...or is that another misconception? I seem to remember that civil society outside the penal system set itself up pretty quickly but have no idea of even the basics of how Australia as a civil society rather than a penal colony got started. (Though some Poms might argue that you Aussies haven't managed "civil" society yet ;))
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Funny huh? Most of the history over Governor Macquarie at the time and trying to supercede the military is interesting. My grandfather Herbert (first fleet) ended up on Norfolk Island. The governors and how they treated the population would change depending on the background of the person in charge ie Navy , marine, civilian.

what's interesting though is ole Herbert boy once finished with his sentence became a constable. (one of the first coppers in Australia) So essentially joining the system that sent him there. But i wonder if he saw it that way ....or whether he thought it's not the old system because people ended up becoming very different to what they left behind. There is a comment made by one Governor how the women on the island needed clothes......no they didn't it's subtropical ....he was offended that the women weren't properly attired lol It's all very complicated and makes one think what the hell was going on there. but, when you think about it they were building an entire new society from scratch basically with shovel and pick.

I'm writing the story of my grandmother and I've been buying antiquarian books from Australian writers from the 1800's ....interestingly all the books so far have come from England. There must have been a deep interest in Australia for that to happen.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6437
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

looking for a couple of people

Post by FourPart »

My ancestor, James Brine, of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, was deported to Australia. He was later Pardoned & returned to England, but because of his ideals of a Trade Union made life difficult for him he moved over to Canada with his wife, Elizabeth Standsfield. Which means I must have quite a few distant family members over there as well.

I was talking to someone in Australia on PalTalk once, and I was surprised to find that whilst hardly anyone in the UK would even know who James Brine was, or even who the Toldpuddle Martyrs were, in Australia it appears they are all treated as Folk Heroes.
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Isnt that interesting? Considering the trade unionism in Australia has shaped us for what we are today. He would have done well here. Victoria at least was once known as the strike capital of Aust. Yet today we have the highest pay rates in Australia. From the Eureka stockade to the stone masons strike he missed his calling. Have you found his convict or transport records? He would have victualling and stores records as well.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
User avatar
magentaflame
Posts: 2566
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Victoria, Australia

looking for a couple of people

Post by magentaflame »

Im not surprised about people not knowing about particular reasons why convicts were sent here. Loads of Irish and English

were sent here for decension ....a lot of people were political prisoners.

I think thats the misconception about convicts being all murderers and rapists...capital offences, they would have been hanged. (Although so was stealing sheep and highway robbery but mine had youth on their side.) It got to the point that if you sneezed you got sent.

By the time the last transport wad sent Australian society was alreasy established. First fleeters had been pardoned or through their sentences and looking after grandchildren.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!

Return to “History”