Racist statues

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YZGI
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Post by YZGI »

I was wondering what every ones opinion is on the BLM, ANTIFA etc etc. groups demanding the removal of all historic statues of the confederacy and of anyone in history that was a slave owner i.e. George Washington, Jefferson...

Also, why did they suddenly become offensive, were they not offensive when Obama was President? It seems to me Obama being black would have been a better time to tear down any offending statues.

I'm getting tired of everyone constantly finding new things to find offensive then protesting until they get their way, often times ending in violence.

I could care less if there was or wasn't a statue of Robert E. Lee or most any other of the like.
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Post by LarsMac »

I have no idea what an Antifa is. As for BLM, I don't recall them having much to say about statues.

I am, like you, uncaring about statues, in general.

If they are on public property, then I reckon city council or county gummint ought to have a say on what statues are part of the landscape.

Seems though that statues honoring men who fought against our government seem a bit inappropriate to me.

How would Kansans feel about having a statue of Bill Anderson in the capital grounds in Topeka?
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Post by YZGI »

LarsMac;1511783 wrote: I have no idea what an Antifa is. As for BLM, I don't recall them having much to say about statues.

I am, like you, uncaring about statues, in general.

If they are on public property, then I reckon city council or county gummint ought to have a say on what statues are part of the landscape.

Seems though that statues honoring men who fought against our government seem a bit inappropriate to me.

How would Kansans feel about having a statue of Bill Anderson in the capital grounds in Topeka?


Good point and I agree, I suppose to the south these figures represent ??? I guess I don't know what they represent. I mean weren't they actually traitors?

I wonder when someone decides they want the pyramids torn down because slave labor was used or LGBT want Martin Luther King statues tore down because he was a christian and didn't believe in gay marriage..
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Post by tude dog »

YZGI;1511782 wrote: I was wondering what every ones opinion is on the BLM, ANTIFA etc etc.


Week ago they were unknown.

YZGI;1511782 wrote: groups demanding the removal of all historic statues of the confederacy and of anyone in history that was a slave owner i.e. George Washington, Jefferson...


This is just so frustrating, It was a different world then. It is intellectual dishonesty to judge them by today's standards.

YZGI;1511782 wrote: Also, why did they suddenly become offensive, were they not offensive when Obama was President? It seems to me Obama being black would have been a better time to tear down any offending statues.

I'm getting tired of everyone constantly finding new things to find offensive then protesting until they get their way, often times ending in violence.


YZGI;1511782 wrote: I could care less if there was or wasn't a statue of Robert E. Lee or most any other of the like.


I can't say much about R.Lee, but he was loyal to his state/county and by all accounts an honorable man.
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Post by LarsMac »

A friend of mine shared the speech that New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu gave about the City's removal of several Confederate statues that I think addresses the question very well.

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Post by YZGI »

LarsMac;1511787 wrote: A friend of mine shared the speech that New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu gave about the City's removal of several Confederate statues that I think addresses the question very well.




Hell I wish he would have run for President.
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Post by Wandrin »

I find it to be very interesting that there was little interest in building the statues and monuments in the decades following the Civil War. The interest and activity suddenly sprung up in the 1950s and 60s, when the the federal government began to get serious about voting rights and other civil rights issues. That is also about the time that the Confederate battle flag began to be displayed.
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Post by Bruv »

When taking the statues down, why not erect them in museums with the relevant background and additional 'relics' of the time ?

People could visit and get the full context, like Auschwitz and Birkenau.
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Post by magentaflame »

Wandrin;1511790 wrote: I find it to be very interesting that there was little interest in building the statues and monuments in the decades following the Civil War. The interest and activity suddenly sprung up in the 1950s and 60s, when the the federal government began to get serious about voting rights and other civil rights issues. That is also about the time that the Confederate battle flag began to be displayed.


That's quite correct Wandrin but a lot of the statues were erected around the 1920's 30's when lynching and the like were at full swing. They were erected in front of court houses as a statment ..... basically the "federal government can't help you here"



the south will rise again?
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Post by Clodhopper »

Bruv;1511793 wrote: When taking the statues down, why not erect them in museums with the relevant background and additional 'relics' of the time ?

People could visit and get the full context, like Auschwitz and Birkenau.


Excellent idea.
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1511793 wrote: When taking the statues down, why not erect them in museums with the relevant background and additional 'relics' of the time ?

People could visit and get the full context, like Auschwitz and Birkenau.


Well, it would be an interesting display. Most of the statues being taken down were erected in the period after the NAACP formed, and there was a resurgence of the KKK, and other white organization. The Daughters of the Confederacy, and other Southern Sympathizer groups were behind a lot of them. So a display of how all that came about might be useful, along with the reactions of other white/alt-right/neo-nazi organizations resisted their removal. Kind of a "Evolution of American Racism," if you will.

I am sure that that would bring in as much revenue as the Noah's Ark replica in Norther Kentucky.
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Post by Wandrin »

Bruv;1511793 wrote: When taking the statues down, why not erect them in museums with the relevant background and additional 'relics' of the time ?

People could visit and get the full context, like Auschwitz and Birkenau.


That's a good idea. Casualties for the Civil War were about 625,000 - a stunning 2% of the population at the time. That's more casualties than the US suffered in both world wars. I suggest that a good place for such a museum would be the prison camps, where the conditions were barbaric.
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Post by FourPart »

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, the order to remove the statue & to rename the park was nothing to do with the Federal Government, but that of the local Council.
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Post by LarsMac »

FourPart;1511846 wrote: I could be wrong, but as I understand it, the order to remove the statue & to rename the park was nothing to do with the Federal Government, but that of the local Council.


That is true. The Federal government had nothing to do with any of the statues being removed, or being marked for removal. All local decisions made by City, County, University administrations.
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Post by YZGI »

Where & when does it stop? There is always going to be some group offended by nearly anything and every thing.
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Post by minks »

it's a no win situation Y's.

People have to stop letting things offend them so much.

What have we become?

History is what it was. We can't change it, but we can change how much we let it offend us.

We ought to be concentrating more on making humans more kind, and tolerant.
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Post by YZGI »

minks;1511851 wrote: it's a no win situation Y's.

People have to stop letting things offend them so much.

What have we become?

History is what it was. We can't change it, but we can change how much we let it offend us.

We ought to be concentrating more on making humans more kind, and tolerant.


It seems to me these things are just a side show, it helps divert our attention on what the politicians and the powers that be i.e. the 1 % and how they are manipulating the masses.

Oh look someone is tearing down that statue, (as i stuff my pockets full of cash)
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Post by tude dog »

Why Black Women Are Protesting A Statue Of This Famed Gynecologist

[img]https://s29.postimg.org/5gkckalfb/sanger-and-kkk.jpg" alt="" />[/IMG]



Just how many hundreds of millions of dollars do us taxpayers contribute to the Magare Sanger Killing machine?

Planned Parenthood Got $540.6 Million in Government Grants in FY 2013

How many KKK, NAZI or White Supremest organizations get government grants?
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Post by LarsMac »

tude dog;1511854 wrote: Why Black Women Are Protesting A Statue Of This Famed Gynecologist

[img]https://s29.postimg.org/5gkckalfb/sanger-and-kkk.jpg" alt="" />[/IMG]



Just how many hundreds of millions of dollars do us taxpayers contribute to the Magare Sanger Killing machine?

Planned Parenthood Got $540.6 Million in Government Grants in FY 2013

How many KKK, NAZI or White Supremest organizations get government grants?


And there lies the entire root of the argument over monuments. Disinformation and innuendo.
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Post by minks »

I feel the more we bitch about being offended, the harder others try to offend us.

Goodness this society is all FUBAR.
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Post by gmc »

minks;1511851 wrote: it's a no win situation Y's.

People have to stop letting things offend them so much.

What have we become?

History is what it was. We can't change it, but we can change how much we let it offend us.

We ought to be concentrating more on making humans more kind, and tolerant.


We can't change it but we can stop pretending the past was all glorious and the bad things that happened -things like black slavery and the holocaust were an aberration caused by a few bad people.
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Post by LarsMac »

minks;1511903 wrote: I feel the more we bitch about being offended, the harder others try to offend us.

Goodness this society is all FUBAR.


A little bit of an understanding of why many of these statues are where they are and why they were put there helps to get why some people find them offensive.

Image the government going to the Native America Tribal grounds and erecting statues of Christopher Columbus, or, of the man who was responsible for infecting millions of them with Smallpox, killing several million in a single year.

Or imagine the government erecting a statue of Pro Nazi Canadians in the Toronto Jewish neighborhood.

A little weak, but you Canadians don't have a lot of the history that we do.
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Post by Wandrin »

In California there are statues of Fr Junipero Sera everywhere. There are giant statues on hill tops and smaller statues in town squares. Every kid is taught what a great man he was - he brought "civilization" to California. He is even on the short list for sainthood.

The non-propaganized history is a bit more brutal. His party of several ships would land. There was the one priest, a few assistants, some merchant types. , and shiploads of soldiers. They would pick a spot. The merchant types would scout around to see if there was any gold or items to sell on the european market. Then they would look for spices or other crops of value to them. The local Native Americans were captured and put to work as slave labor to build a "mission" and grow food for the party. If there was some spice or other marketable crop, the slave labor grew those. Every day or so, the priest would preach and tell everyone that they needed to renounce their traditions and beliefs and become Christians. According to church doctrine, if they converted to the priest's satisfaction, they were no longer slaves and graduated to becoming unpaid employees supervising the slaves.

Once a "mission" was fully operational, they would set out to explore a new place and see if there was anything they wanted there. They established a set of these "missions" for the southern 500 miles of California and used slave labor to build a road between them. All of these "missions" or the sites on which they were built are now national and state historic sites with propagandistic plaques and statues.

Understandable, the Native American community (and many others) are upset by the whitewashing of history and the celebration of this guy as a hero. They have been trying for years to get some of these publicly funded statues removed, or at least tell the whole story in the plaques.
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Post by Saint_ »

YZGI;1511782 wrote:

I'm getting tired of everyone constantly finding new things to find offensive then protesting until they get their way, often times ending in violence.

I could care less if there was or wasn't a statue of Robert E. Lee or most any other of the like.


The idiots. Lee was actually against the war and only served for duty's sake. After the war he regretted it mercilessly and refused to condone any glorification. People who would erase history are on the same level as ISIS. Protesting against racist Neo-Nazis is perfectly correct. Blaming a statue for society's undercurrent of evil and the propagation of such groups is just ignorant.
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Post by gmc »

Context is everything, is it not the case that these statues were raised at the height of the civil rights campaign to make clear who was in charge?

Talking of the lessons from history the rise of the right in europe and america is not something to be taken lightly. If trump stands at the next election and loses bet you he claims it was fixed.
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Post by LarsMac »

Understanding why a particular statue was placed where it is, and why it was put there, and who is requesting/demanding its removal probably helps.

Making sweeping statements about all statues, and all of the people demanding their removal seems as counterproductive as making sweeping demands to remove all the statues.

Of course, now the reactionaries are overreacting to the localized demands and claiming a nationwide effort to "erase history"

There has been a discussion on another forum about and effort to remove some confederate memorials in New York City that were placed on NYU campus in the mid 20th century. Why are there Confederate "monuments" in NY City?
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Post by magentaflame »

Oh great! Now its happening in this country..... thankyou social media and" outrage book" for the copy cat hysteria.
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Post by minks »

Mag I am doing my very polite "golf clap" with the look of distain on my face right now.

I feel like you. "f@@@ you social media for promoting and encouraging sheep like behavior"

Stir up mass hysteria, mass idiocy, mass jump on the band wagon. Ugh have we humans nothing better to do with ourselves.
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Post by magentaflame »

Yeah, but one person.....one!....went and graffitteed a statue in Sydney....now we have to tear them down?

Ugggh. Its all too much. The prominant response is though, more statues not less.

And if i could make a couple of suggestions?

Thw person who invented the fridge....humanity relies on refridgeration.

What about the windmill? They are all around the world.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

tude dog;1511785 wrote: I can't say much about R.Lee, but he was loyal to his state/county and by all accounts an honorable man.I am assuming that you mean, as written, county and not country.

He was certainly not loyal to his country, so I guess it depends on what you consider "honorable". I live in Champaign County, State of Illinois. I can't imagine anyone here attempting to break away from the USA, for whatever reason.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

Bruv;1511793 wrote: When taking the statues down, why not erect them in museums with the relevant background and additional 'relics' of the time ?

People could visit and get the full context, like Auschwitz and Birkenau.That has been seriously suggested. We shall see.
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Post by Ahso! »

YZGI;1511782 wrote: I was wondering what every ones opinion is on the BLM, ANTIFA etc etc. groups demanding the removal of all historic statues of the confederacy and of anyone in history that was a slave owner i.e. George Washington, Jefferson...

Also, why did they suddenly become offensive, were they not offensive when Obama was President? It seems to me Obama being black would have been a better time to tear down any offending statues.

I'm getting tired of everyone constantly finding new things to find offensive then protesting until they get their way, often times ending in violence.

I could care less if there was or wasn't a statue of Robert E. Lee or most any other of the like.YZGI;1511848 wrote: Where & when does it stop? There is always going to be some group offended by nearly anything and every thing.minks;1511851 wrote: it's a no win situation Y's.

People have to stop letting things offend them so much.

What have we become?

History is what it was. We can't change it, but we can change how much we let it offend us.

We ought to be concentrating more on making humans more kind, and tolerant.
An argument could be made that it might be reduced when the irony of it is!
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Post by tude dog »

So there is nothing to be left alone.

Yale saves fragile students from a carving of a musket

Summer brings no respite for academics committed to campus purifications, particularly at the institution that is the leader in the silliness sweepstakes, Yale. Its Committee on Art in Public Spaces has discovered that a stone carving that has adorned an entrance to Sterling Memorial Library since it opened 86 years ago has become “not appropriate.”

The carving, according to Yale Alumni Magazine, depicts “a hostile encounter: a Puritan pointing a musket at a Native American.” Actually, the Native American and the Puritan are looking not hostilely at each other but into the distance. Still, one can’t be too careful, so the musket has been covered with stone. This is unilateral disarmament: The Native American’s weapon, a bow, has not been covered up. Perhaps Yale thinks that armed white men are more “triggering” (this academic-speak means “upsetting to the emotionally brittle”) than armed people of color. National Review Online’s Kyle Smith drolly worries that Yale University might be perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

If such campus folderols merely added to what Samuel Johnson called “the public stock of harmless pleasure,” Americans could welcome a new academic year the way they once welcomed new burlesque acts. Unfortunately, the descent of institutions of learning into ludicrousness is symptomatic of larger social distempers that Frank Furedi has diagnosed abroad as well as in America.


Here is the object of objection.

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Post by YZGI »

Dang, don't tell me all the nude statues are gonna get clothes...
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Post by LarsMac »

YZGI;1512262 wrote: Dang, don't tell me all the nude statues are gonna get clothes...
Funny that you mention that.



italy-clothes-nude-statues-for-iranian-prez
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Post by Mark Aspam »

tude dog;1511854 wrote: Just how many hundreds of millions of dollars do us taxpayers contribute to the Magare Sanger Killing machine?

Planned Parenthood Got $540.6 Million in Government Grants in FY 2013[/url]

How many KKK, NAZI or White Supremest organizations get government grants?


I'm not sure what Margaret Sanger has to do with civil war statues.

That she was a racist is well known.

Planned Parenthood PREVENTS many more, probably thousands or millions more, unwanted pregnancies than it helps terminate.

Don't like abortions? Neither do I. But if there are not legal abortions there will be illegal ones. I guess you could call it morality versus reality.
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Mark Aspam;1512211 wrote: I am assuming that you mean, as written, county and not country.

He was certainly not loyal to his country, so I guess it depends on what you consider "honorable". I live in Champaign County, State of Illinois. I can't imagine anyone here attempting to break away from the USA, for whatever reason.


The legitimate question is did states have the right to leave the Union? That question was settled by war, not law. logic, philosophy or democratic process. Like somebody once said, MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

Realizing Abraham Lincoln himself a racist freed the slaves. Started with a military document, the Emancipation Proclamation.

Lincoln himself would have deported Neegros to central America. So let's just blow up



Why stop there? Here must be the triumph of the racial puritans.

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Post by tude dog »

Mark Aspam;1512272 wrote: I'm not sure what Margaret Sanger has to do with civil war statues.

That she was a racist is well known.

Planned Parenthood PREVENTS many more, probably thousands or millions more, unwanted pregnancies than it helps terminate.

Don't like abortions? Neither do I. But if there are not legal abortions there will be illegal ones. I guess you could call it morality versus reality.


I am not proposing to make abortions illegal. I just don't see Planned Parenthood deserving of taxpayer dollars.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

tude dog;1512274 wrote: I am not proposing to make abortions illegal. I just don't see Planned Parenthood deserving of taxpayer dollars.Fair enough, I wonder if there are statistics available regarding the percentage of taxpayers, on a statewide basis, who DO and who DON'T approve of funding PP. I really have no idea, it would be interesting to find out, surely it would vary from state to state.
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Post by Mark Aspam »

tude dog;1512273 wrote: 1. The legitimate question is did states have the right to leave the Union?

2. Realizing Abraham Lincoln himself a racist freed the slaves....Lincoln himself would have deported Neegros to central America. 1. As far as I konw, only Texas has that right, it being a condition (on Texas' part) of joining the union.

2. There are all sorts of false claims attributed to Lincoln by racists. What is your source?
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Post by Bruv »

Mark Aspam;1512285 wrote: 1. As far as I konw, only Texas has that right, it being a condition (on Texas' part) of joining the union.

2. There are all sorts of false claims attributed to Lincoln by racists. What is your source?


Snopes ??
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Post by LarsMac »

It would be folly to presume that Abolitionists in the middle 19th Century were also proponents of Racial Equality.

Most Abolitionists were simply proponents of ending the evils of Slavery.

One step at a time.
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Mark Aspam;1512275 wrote: Fair enough, I wonder if there are statistics available regarding the percentage of taxpayers, on a statewide basis, who DO and who DON'T approve of funding PP. I really have no idea, it would be interesting to find out, surely it would vary from state to state.


There are stats like that created for everything.

Just for the heck of it here is the most local Wichita Health Center of Wichita, KS

Why not make Plannedperetnhood at the top?

Nevermind.

Exactly what these services? Which of those services can't be done by others?
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