Religious war

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Post by magentaflame »

Im a socialist. Some of the despriptions of socialism ive read in this thread is laughable.. Theres a severe misconception of a social/political system one has never lived under.

One thing ive noticed over most of my lifetime is the fervant push to have any system other than capitalism as an inferior system of governing. But when you have a system where the absolute reliance on inequity exists you mst put down anything and everything associated with an alternative.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by LarsMac »

The first problem is that people cannot distinguish between Economic systems, and Governmental systems.
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Post by magentaflame »

Its been said that America hasnt stayed true to its original founding principles. The financial crisis stands as testement to this. If a government allows certain economic practices (and in some cases profits in supporting them , then its seen as a government not only within that system but basing its principles on it.

Granted this can happen in any governmental system. So its not confusing at all.
The 'radical' left just wants everyone to have food, shelter, healthcare, education and a living wage. Man that's radical!....ooooohhhh Scary!
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Post by tude dog »

spot;1503958 wrote: I'm sorry? Did Jesus leave any writings which anybody reads, studies much less respects today? Since when did the act of writing bestow religious authority or influence.


Hmm,

Not only we have no evidence of Jesus writings, but the people most noted for speaking for him never met the guy.

Apparently, there was something in those writings which appealed to people. I'm no Christian, but their message is one superior to pagans.

The authority comes from acceptance, and scholarly work helps.
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Post by tude dog »

magentaflame;1503959 wrote: Im a socialist. Some of the despriptions of socialism ive read in this thread is laughable.. Theres a severe misconception of a social/political system one has never lived under.

One thing ive noticed over most of my lifetime is the fervant push to have any system other than capitalism as an inferior system of governing. But when you have a system where the absolute reliance on inequity exists you mst put down anything and everything associated with an alternative.


To me that is funny.

It was a while back during the Reagan administration a buddy of mine talked me into going and watch an anti Contras demonstration. He liked heckling the marchers as I looked for shelter.

Anyway, the marched ended at the Los Angeles Civic Center

There the various Communists set up tents and tables.

Communist Party United States America

Socialist Workers Party (United States)

No love lost there.

Then we had the Progressive Labor Party

Them and the

Spartacus hate everybody.

Now to be fair, that was a long time ago.

The point remains the same.

Who speaks for Communism or any other belief system?
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Post by spot »

tude dog;1503976 wrote: The authority comes from acceptancePersecuting heretics within the Christian Church has had far more acceptance over the last 1,700 years than the notion of forgiving them. I think the Grand Inquisitor has won more theological battles than he's lost.

As for scholarly works, they had those too. Malleus Maleficarum was contemporary with Tomas de Torquemada and gave both justification and process for dealing with heresy for centuries after. It was very accepted, it was considered definitive. People went right on burning heretics at the stake the way they'd been brought up, as good practicing Christians, to do. You can be certain there was a copy on hand at the Salem trials. And yes, I have red it.
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Post by Ted »

Spot, love the topic. Every one of the great faiths have their fundamentalist evangelicals. In fact so do some atheists. The roots of all the great faiths lie in Justice (distributive) and compassion---Karen Armstrong "The Great Transformation". We do see some like P. Robertson wanting to see Chavez of Venezuela assassinated. Christian !!!??? Not in my view. I also consider myself a social democrat. I did look under my bed but couldn't find any commies.
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Post by gmc »

tude dog;1503950 wrote: To you and Spot, I am impressed.

Many years ago I read the Communist Manifesto which I found to be silly.


So have I and good grief I actually agree with you. A utopian fantasy where the educated elite lead the masses to salvation and the workers paradise most socialists with half a brain could see what was wrong with it.

Funny, I am a big fan of a Spanish Jew, Maimonides.

Due to Muslim intolerance towards Jews and Christians, his family decided to split.

I've spent a lot of time reading and studying his works.

If anybody were to represent RELIGION Maimonides in my world would be the first of many, many of different RELIGIONS.

Is there anything written by Tomás de Torquemada which anybody reads, studies much less respects today?






You might have a look at what the christians did in spain to both muslims and jews or anyone else they picked on once they achieved dominance all in the name of religion.

Nobody reads Maimonides nowadays any more than anyone reads torquemada or even St Augistine although they recite the latters words in church but the conflict of ideas they represent still goes on today you can find all the same debates and arguments being espoused as if they were new. One big change is you will see a secular world view espoused in thge past that would have been downright life threatening still is in some countries. When christianity ruled in europe they called the dark ages for the very good reason it set us back a thousand years as the catholic church set out to destroy all record of the very science and philosophy that so influenced Maimondes. God forbid knowledge should come from anything but bthe bible.

posted by ted

Spot, love the topic. Every one of the great faiths have their fundamentalist evangelicals. In fact so do some atheists. The roots of all the great faiths lie in Justice (distributive) and compassion---Karen Armstrong "The Great Transformation". We do see some like P. Robertson wanting to see Chavez of Venezuela assassinated. Christian !!!??? Not in my view. I also consider myself a social democrat. I did look under my bed but couldn't find any commies.




No they don't karen armstriong sees what she wants to see to prove the existence of her age of transformation, it's absurd human beings have been physically much the same and have enjoyed the same brain capacity for around 150,000 years. It is to exercise the worst sort of condescension of posterity to think that only in the last 3,000 of those long years did humankind jack itself up to think creatively and variously about the tragedy of existence and create relgion as the great answer that transformed society. It's about as absurd as believing that the european empires brought civilisation to those african nations they enslaved and conquered.

Atheism is not a religion it's simply a lack of conviction that there is any proof god exists although I find many religious people like to see it in those terms being incapable of understanding it's possible god may not exist and to not believe in god. But yes I would agree it does have some irritating "fundamenatalist" that don't speak for anyone but themselves.
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Post by spot »

I still reed Saint Augustine, he can be very exciting when he's not being allegorical.

For my sins I also reed Karen Armstrong, she's educational.

How could anyone not reed St Augustine?
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Post by FourPart »

Religion is, and always has been a political manipulation of fear of the unknown. Rather than being content to accept that you exist & then you don't, Religion creates some sort of arrogant precept that puts itself above this simple fact. It is then left with borders that don't exist, so it has to make some up. If you don't subscribe to these make believe borders then you are condemned to the 'dark side', whereas if you join up with the elitist 'in crowd' you are assured of some eternal reward, which they cannot even demonstrate the existence of. Their technique being to try & instill some element of doubt into what might originally be an open mind, in an attempt to let the genie out of the bottle of fear.

Politics are no different. Very rarely do any campaigners promote the positive aspects of their policies & explain the reasons of how or why they could work. Instead they operate by scaremongering the voter by making up imaginary scenarios with no basis whatsoever of what would happen if the opposition were to win.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1504051 wrote: Religion is, and always has been a political manipulation of fear of the unknown.


If you reed St Augistine's Confessions you'll find religion can also be liberating. It's a believable account of a personal experience, I can't see why anyone would dismiss it as manipulative.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1504028 wrote: I still reed Saint Augustine, he can be very exciting when he's not being allegorical.

For my sins I also reed Karen Armstrong, she's educational.

How could anyone not reed St Augustine?


It seems a lot of religious pople don't read him quite a few seem to not even have heard of him indeed they seem to give little thought to why they believe what they believe. Theology is the interminable discussion about the nature of something that does not exist without sorting out the basic assumption. It's not my version of religion is always the excuse used to pretend religious wars were nothimngh to do with religion.
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Post by Ted »

GMC I agree in part. Religious wars really have nothing to do with religion. That a good deal of the world's population have some belief in a higher power.. What is wrong with caring for the sick, or feeding the hungry, or visiting those in Prison, or cloithing the naked etc. Some have come back with atheists can do that. Yes that is true but it has traditionally been the religion institutions that have done most of it. I have heard a lot from the fundamentalist evangelical atheists over the years. Just their gospel is different. Even religious people began the push for education..
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Post by FourPart »

For that matter, Religion very rarely has anything to do with Religion. It's all power & control. Preach one thing. Do the opposite.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1504101 wrote: For that matter, Religion very rarely has anything to do with Religion. It's all power & control. Preach one thing. Do the opposite.


The trouble with that approach is you end up with no vocabulary left to discuss anything. If you allow the dictionary meaning of religion to stand, and then add another term "abuse of religion", you can say the abuse of religion to achieve power and control is the norm while religion is rarely practiced. You have sufficient words in play to make sense.
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Post by Ahso! »

Ted;1504086 wrote: What is wrong with caring for the sick, or feeding the hungry, or visiting those in Prison, or cloithing the naked etc. Some have come back with atheists can do that. Yes that is true but it has traditionally been the religion institutions that have done most of it.Nobody does anything without believing there is something to gain by doing it.

Religious institutions do all these so called good deeds mostly for self-serving reasons - to grow their numbers through converting. The poor are particularly coveted because they are in predicaments that cause them to go along with anything that is said by those that help them to survive. That's the trade-off.

Ted;1504086 wrote: I have heard a lot from the fundamentalist evangelical atheists over the years. Just their gospel is different.Remove God from the conversation and then tell me what these fundamentalist evangelical atheists have been preaching to you? I'd honestly like to know.

Ted;1504086 wrote: Even religious people began the push for education..Are you attempting to claim that religious fundamentalists along with their institutions are responsible for the concept of education? Where? Everywhere? Do you acknowledge that the education they pushed was religious in nature? That's not education, that's indoctrination. All cults do it, and all religions are cults.

The American education system has been in shambles for years precisely due to religiously educated politicians wanting to control it. They want to privatize our education because they believe that religious institutions overall have better financing than do secular based institutions. GWB and the republican congress under him was able to get religious institutions to qualify for federal funding under certain conditions.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504086 wrote: GMC I agree in part. Religious wars really have nothing to do with religion. That a good deal of the world's population have some belief in a higher power.. What is wrong with caring for the sick, or feeding the hungry, or visiting those in Prison, or cloithing the naked etc. Some have come back with atheists can do that. Yes that is true but it has traditionally been the religion institutions that have done most of it. I have heard a lot from the fundamentalist evangelical atheists over the years. Just their gospel is different. Even religious people began the push for education..


Even religious people began the push for education




What planet are you on? the catholic church used to burn people at the stake for wanting to print the bible in the language of the common peope. They don't want an educated populace that can think for themselves and question religious belief. both christian and islamic religions oppose the teaching of girls and do their best to ty and control what theiur children are taught for dear they get contaminated bt free thinkers. In america theyb try and enfoirce the teaching of creationism in sciwence classes abd given half a chance would do the same here. Don't tell me you think the burning of heretics and persecution of free thinkers and protestants was in puirsuit of their education.

Some have come back with atheists can do that. Yes that is true but it has traditionally been the religion institutions that have done most of it.




No they haven't in many cases they only get involved in social programmes when shamed by secular agencies and then when they do they impose their own religious views - look at the harm done in africa by christian opposition to contraceoption and the teaching about aids or in south amertica the cionsistent never ending opposition to the education of women and allowing access to birth control. Educatuion is the last thing they want people to have free access to unless they can controol the content and brainwash the chikldren.

Religious wars really have nothing to do with religion.


Really? why are they called religious wars then. How about when the pope divided the americas between the spanish and portuguese and gave the go ahead for the forced conversion of the natives or creates the myth of the black people as being inferior and therefore it was OK to enslave them even of they were christian. What do you think is going on in the middle east sunni agaimnst shia slaughtering each other over who has the "right" belief in islam. In india it's hindu against sikh and muslim thanks to fundamentalist hindus getting control. In turkey a fundamentalist muslim is trying to rturn a secular state in to a religious one using the well tried methods of fear and intimidation.

I have heard a lot from the fundamentalist evangelical atheists over the years. Just their gospel is different.


What utter bollocks. what gospel are they using who are they? atheists do not follow any kind of gospel or leader clearly you do not understand the meaning of the word.
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Post by Ahso! »

It's interesting to watch as people who are in the process of losing their religion try to straddle every fence they can as they try to hold onto their past. It feels lonely and frightening when the realization that you are indeed alone comes about. The irony is that it wouldn't be so scary had one had no religion to undo to begin with.
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Post by FourPart »

The Bible has bastardised the very word 'Gospel'. It is supposed to mean 'Truth'. In the context of the Bible, though, it clearly isn't.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1504248 wrote: The Bible has bastardised the very word 'Gospel'. It is supposed to mean 'Truth'.


You're thinking of Pravda.

Gospel means Good News.

OED Etymology: Old English godspel , doubtless originally gód spel (see good adj. and spell n.1), good tidings.
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Post by gmc »

Ahso!;1504189 wrote: It's interesting to watch as people who are in the process of losing their religion try to straddle every fence they can as they try to hold onto their past. It feels lonely and frightening when the realization that you are indeed alone comes about. The irony is that it wouldn't be so scary had one had no religion to undo to begin with.


You have no poof that we are indeed alone any more than the relgious have proof that we are not.

If it didn't exist somone would invent it - why do we exist is a question as old a mankind. there must be a reason and so religion get invented then it becomes a means to control people believe this do as I say or you are all going to hell don't question, don't doubt don't think just believe that's why religiion has held back progress and systematically detroyed access to "old" knowledge, god forbid anyone should ind answers outside of religion. If you read the early biblical history and how they decided what would be the "right" belief only the most gullible would think there was god guiding them. Most of the world got on fine without knowing about the god from the middle east for most of history as does karen armstrong et al who like see religion and christianity in particular christianity as the great thing that saved us all. It's load of bollocks that's hard to counter since it's based on wishful thinking. It's human nature to kill and slaughter their fellow as much as it's human nature to live in peace and be curious about peoples that are different from you and to not want to go to war unless you have to religion is a useful tool.

religious faith is not based on reason you can't point out the harm religion has done and does without excuse like - they were not really christian/islamic jewish etc etc inconvenbient facts are igniored the inquisitionn only affected a few thiousand people the holocaust wa due to hitler and a few bad people and had nothing to do with christian teaching catholic preiets did not abuse children they were tempted and were weak in their faith putting the blam back on the victim sactarianism has nothing to with religion and look how they now live together peacfully in religious apartheid in northern ireland as if the religious leaders played any part in the peace process. isis are not truly islamic but saudi is and iran is and if they were truly islamic they wouldn't be trying to slaughter each other by proxy. Religion is irrational anmd does great harm that far outweighs any good it can claim. Human rights are a secular concept, equal rights for women are secular in origin as is racial equality the Us refuses to ratify The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child because that godly country reserves the right to decide if it wants to execute children and the godly home schoolers want the right to deprive their kids of a good education But that's not due to religion either is it.
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Post by Ahso! »

gmc;1504260 wrote: You have no poof that we are indeed alone any more than the relgious have proof that we are not.What do you think I meant by that?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by gmc »

Ahso!;1504261 wrote: What do you think I meant by that?


It feels lonely and frightening when the realization that you are indeed alone comes about.




Rather implied that you had come to the conclusion that you are indeed alone. I don't think you can come to any valid conclusion except we don't know which is fine by me.

The irony is that it wouldn't be so scary had one had no religion to undo to begin with.




I have several relatives who are now young adults brought up without any kind of religious indoctrination they are now questioning why anyone believes such nonsense but they haven't actually looked in to it for themselves which to me leaves them open to beimng sucked in - they have a bad habit of believing some of the crap that floats around on the internet - critical thinking is something you need to learn and an awful lot of people don't seem to know how to check things out like that nutter that walkedn in to the pizza parlour with a machine gun to investigate it doesn't seem to have occured to him that people tell lies. Religious people are not stupid they are used to being told what to believe and they haven't learned to think for themselves to think. IMO that is what they are frightened of rather than being alone it's thinking things out for themselves and then being the only one in a crowd of believers that thinks it's nonsense saying it out loud quite be quite hard to do in some places.
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Post by Ahso! »

It's the height of consciousness - the end-all/be-all to realize you're (just) another organism. No more than the fly you swat at or the grass you walk on or the animal you eat. We're just a different species but saddled with illusion and the ability to play those illusions out. That's a hard place to get to, and then abiding there is even tougher. Unfortunately, or not, you can't unknow something.

That's what I meant.
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Post by Ted »

Reading gmc's posts rather makes me laugh. He tries to tar everyone with the same brush. Apparently he has no respect for good solid scholarship. Now to the point of religion. They have found evidence of ritual and religious buriels from as far back and 30 000 years. As I said elsewhere Karen Armstrong is a well respected historian and so is Bart Ehrman. Neither seem to have a problem with the reality of God. The statement that religion was created to control people is a joke. It has been used for that at times. A statistical study has shown that more people have died under atheists and game players and not because of the church. Talk about a fundamentalist evangelical spouting off I've just read. Yes there have been lots of atrocities in the name of God or the church but that is still overshadowed by the non religious wars throughout history. Religious people have done more for humanity than non religious. Though the non religious have done such work as well.

The historical evidence shows that religious belief and comforted many folks down through the millennia the sick the dying the homeless. religious folks pushed for higher education, Food banks,s soup kitchens, I really do not understand what is wrong with feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, visiting those in prison, clothing the naked etc. Not to mention fighting for justice. There are also many lies passed on in ignorance about the church and a belief in the reality of God.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504329 wrote: Reading gmc's posts rather makes me laugh. He tries to tar everyone with the same brush. Apparently he has no respect for good solid scholarship. Now to the point of religion. They have found evidence of ritual and religious buriels from as far back and 30 000 years. As I said elsewhere Karen Armstrong is a well respected historian and so is Bart Ehrman. Neither seem to have a problem with the reality of God. The statement that religion was created to control people is a joke. It has been used for that at times. A statistical study has shown that more people have died under atheists and game players and not because of the church. Talk about a fundamentalist evangelical spouting off I've just read. Yes there have been lots of atrocities in the name of God or the church but that is still overshadowed by the non religious wars throughout history. Religious people have done more for humanity than non religious. Though the non religious have done such work as well.

The historical evidence shows that religious belief and comforted many folks down through the millennia the sick the dying the homeless. religious folks pushed for higher education, Food banks,s soup kitchens, I really do not understand what is wrong with feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, visiting those in prison, clothing the naked etc. Not to mention fighting for justice. There are also many lies passed on in ignorance about the church and a belief in the reality of God.


I am speaking of religion in general terms, religion and belief in god do not necessarily go hand in hand. Of course you can find isolated examples where religion has been a force for good but for every such example you can find many where it has been a force for oppression and fear and used. Most wars have economic reasons as well as cultuiral and religious you can't reasonable cliam it is all just down to one thing. Religiouis folk have not always poushed for higher education, one of the first thimngs constantine did when he decided to become christian was shut down all thecschoopls of philospphy in rome - god forbid that anyone should get knowledge from anywhere but the bible it wasn't until the middle ages that europe startyed recovering all tghe lost knowledge of medicine and science during the crusades. Many both famous like galileo and not so famous were persecuityed for daring to educate themselves and pushing the boundaries of science.

The basic premise of the judeo/ christian religion is fear - believe or go to hell, we are all born sinners and must seek redemption fo an act commited by our supposed progenerators eve's curse had been a baleful influence on half the population of the planet and still is to this day in many places to claim it as source of enlightenment and good deeds is to choose tom ignore the many boccasions when it was not.

I do inded have a respect for good solid scholarship i wait in vain to see any from the rleigious posters including yourself on this poster.

As I said elsewhere Karen Armstrong is a well respected historian and so is Bart Ehrman. Neither seem to have a problem with the reality of God.




Even i that were true so what? Why should anyone care how they are viewed. quoting someone as an authority does not make you or them right look at trhe argument check the sources and make up your own mind just as using the bible as an authority does not prove the existence of god.

The statement that religion was created to control people is a joke. It has been used for that at times. A statistical study has shown that more people have died under atheists and game players and not because of the church.




Really? religion is man made just look at the history of the bible and the versions we now use. Read the bible, if god wrote that he is at best insane at worst a vicious psychotic tyrant. Unless of course you are not christian but a theist

What study what's your source?

you are incapable of comning out with a coherent argumnt to put your case all you do is ignore any inconvenient fact that does not fit your world view and cite dubious stidies and historical authorities as if that is a valid arggument.

Religion and the reality of god are two seperate things if you want to discuss the reality of god start another thread but the onus is oin you to prove that reality somnething you just cannot do.
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Post by Ted »

gmc with all due respect once again your ignorance is showing. You make statements that are simplly no true.. As for scholarship no I do not consiider myself a scholar I am a perpetual student. However I have 11 years of formal university educatiion and now continue to study under scholars and the Vancouver School of Theology which is a very modern source of information. Now if that is what you want to believe go for it. I do not criticize folks for their belief system. I do not want you or anyone else to believe as I do. I do not proselytize. If folks want to discuss issues I cooperate.. We must each follow our own path. I could give you the names of several scholars but I rather doubt you would care.

It is well known in history that it was the church that began the struggle for higher education. That is an historical fact. Many are now talking about " Christianity After Religion" Diana Butler-Bass. As far as the other faiths go I accept the validity of each.
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Post by Ahso! »

You make lots of claims, Ted, but you never back anything up.

ETA: And you avoid people who ask you to.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504457 wrote: gmc with all due respect once again your ignorance is showing. You make statements that are simplly no true.. As for scholarship no I do not consiider myself a scholar I am a perpetual student. However I have 11 years of formal university educatiion and now continue to study under scholars and the Vancouver School of Theology which is a very modern source of information. Now if that is what you want to believe go for it. I do not criticize folks for their belief system. I do not want you or anyone else to believe as I do. I do not proselytize. If folks want to discuss issues I cooperate.. We must each follow our own path. I could give you the names of several scholars but I rather doubt you would care.

It is well known in history that it was the church that began the struggle for higher education. That is an historical fact. Many are now talking about " Christianity After Religion" Diana Butler-Bass. As far as the other faiths go I accept the validity of each.


Such as? You are very good at saying things like that but you never actually back it up. I am not in the habit of making claims or assertions that I cannot back up. Keep it simple give an example of a statement that is simply not true. you might not agree with my opinions but they are not ill informed and if I make an error of fact I would be the first to hold up my hand if you were able to prove me wrong although we could end up agreeing on the factual element and fall out over the interpretation.

Come to that you have a habit of makling assertions that do not stand up to much close examination start with this one

It is well known in history that it was the church that began the struggle for higher education. That is an historical fact.


Which church are you talking about? The one that burned scholars at the stake for wanting to print books or persecuted galileo? The islamic centres of learning now that I would agree with you there we owe them a debt of gratituse for preserving so much if the church had it but even they excluded women from learning and still do, very enlightened.

Theology is the study of the nature of the divine, the assumption is the divine exists and that is something I do not agree with.

You are the one that brought up scholarship citing scholars is hardly an argument but you seem overly impressed by them. I don't care and am not impressed who wrote what if the concluscions are flawed imo then the conclusions are flawed imo and I'm quite capable of drawing and backing up my own. Karen narmstrong is one of those writers that picks up on anythuing that backs up her world view and blithely ignores or skates over anything that does not. Just for the record I would apply the same criticism to richard dawkins who is something of a late developer when it comes to non belief, so too was christopher hitchens who for a while found solace in the politics of the left.
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Post by Ted »

gmc would you like a list of authors? You do say things that I do not recognize in my church and other mainline churches. It is just not there. It is not the church I know today. They do not tell me what to believe. I believe what I believe after many years of research.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504463 wrote: gmc would you like a list of authors? You do say things that I do not recognize in my church and other mainline churches. It is just not there. It is not the church I know today. They do not tell me what to believe. I believe what I believe after many years of research.


No. I could give you a list as well but what would be the point? Start with the bible maybe and move on to the koran and maybe the sanskrit texts try not to get distracted by the technical aspects of the kam sutra.

What is your church I haven't the foggiest idea what church you belong to nor is it particularly relevant in a general dicussion about religion uinless you are claiming that your particular verion is correct above all others in which case that's a big surprise. Did it exist all those years ago when those who wished to dissent were being burned at the stake and were either being burned or doing the burning. In simple terms since you are presumably not a member of what is known (to christians) as the mother church you are a heretic, I'm a free thinker - a non conformist we would both have been in trouble and would have had to get our education in secret assuming you could read in the first place. Seems to me you are one of those deists who need to find some kind of belief structure they can adhere to a security blanket for the soul. I'm not trying to steal your blanket you don;t have to read what i post if it bothers you.

You're still dodging

gmc with all due respect once again your ignorance is showing. You make statements that are simplly no true..






Like what give an example.

. Keep it simple give an example of a statement that is simply not true. you might not agree with my opinions but they are not ill informed and if I make an error of fact I would be the first to hold up my hand if you were able to prove me wrong although we could end up agreeing on the factual element and fall out over the interpretation.
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Post by Ted »

gmc I am not a theist or a deist. To claim that the Judaeo-christian faith is based on fear is not true. To make the statement that all religious faiths tell you what to believe is simply again not true. To suggest that religious issues have killed more than anything else is a fallacy that does not stand up to the statistical research (Diana Butler-Bass). You tend to make blanket statements that are simply not true of many religious faiths. In all fairness you can find examples of what you have listed but they do not involve all religious faiths. No doubt that if we had lived during the dark ages we would both have been burned at the steak. Yes the Church has much to be sorry for but that does not take in all. I have on many occasions quoted from a respectable source and acknowledged it and I have often quoted a scholarly source by name and acknowledged the scholar. My library has hundreds of books so in some cases I would have to go through many books to give an accurate quote though many I do remember but not all. Where I have paraphrased I have also acknowledge that. You are correct about one thing you would not read the authors or titles if I listed them. Obviously you have made up your m ind and do not want confulsed by the facts.
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Post by Ted »

gmc I am certainly glad that we have not been involved in a BBQ as the guests of honour. The BBQ
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504501 wrote: gmc I am not a theist or a deist. To claim that the Judaeo-christian faith is based on fear is not true. To make the statement that all religious faiths tell you what to believe is simply again not true. To suggest that religious issues have killed more than anything else is a fallacy that does not stand up to the statistical research (Diana Butler-Bass). You tend to make blanket statements that are simply not true of many religious faiths. In all fairness you can find examples of what you have listed but they do not involve all religious faiths. No doubt that if we had lived during the dark ages we would both have been burned at the steak. Yes the Church has much to be sorry for but that does not take in all. I have on many occasions quoted from a respectable source and acknowledged it and I have often quoted a scholarly source by name and acknowledged the scholar. My library has hundreds of books so in some cases I would have to go through many books to give an accurate quote though many I do remember but not all. Where I have paraphrased I have also acknowledge that. You are correct about one thing you would not read the authors or titles if I listed them. Obviously you have made up your m ind and do not want confulsed by the facts.


To claim that the Judaeo-christian faith is based on fear is not true.




Read the bible o0r the belief system of any of the judaeo-christian sects then tell me what happens after death or at the second coming to non believers why do they need redemption? Believe in me or go to hell if that's not based on fear you're kidding yourself. Oh I know we all have free will given to us by god who also knows what our choice will be if you b leieve that crap that is.

To make the statement that all religious faiths tell you what to believe is simply again not true.


I never claimed that all religious faiths tell you what to believe but many do. You seem to know very little about religion in particular the catholic church - what do you think the protestant reformation was all about and why is finding your own path to jesus such a controversial topic do you know what a religious creed is? You presumably have your own whc must be weird since you ae not a deist or atheist that rather suggest you don't believe in god.

what about wahibism what happens if you don't believe what you are told in that particular form of islam or in islam in general what is the penalty for apostasy axxiording to the koran?

To suggest that religious issues have killed more than anything else is a fallacy that does not stand up to the statistical research (Diana Butler-Bass).


I have never actually claimed that. But I do get fed up with religous people pretending religjion has never played a part in some of the worst atrocities in history or that it was some kind of quirky aberration. The holocaust which would be almost inconceievable without two thouseand years of christian propoganda against the jews for anyone to claim it was because hitler and the nazis became atheists is delusional beyond ubderstanding. Atheist have commited lots of atriocities as well the difference is they didn't do it for religious reasons. Hitler quite clearly did so and got a lot of support in his efforts both at home and abroad it was only after the war that anti-semitism suddenly ceased to be mainstream.

You are correct about one thing you would not read the authors or titles if I listed them. Obviously you have made up your m ind and do not want confulsed by the facts


there's no point because i would not necessarily accept them as valid sources. go to the original sources and do your own research. The likes of karen armstrong are an interesting start point but check ot her siources for yourself, her conscluscions are not justified imo she is very selective about the facts she chooses to use and the concluscions are not valid ity is the same with many writers who are believers they tend not to be interested in anything that challenges their belief system. I would putb it to you don't want to be confused by facts so you ignore them. Read the bible for your self, read the koran, read the sanskrit texts all of which have influenced religious thinking troughout the ages and do0 some general reading maybe you will be able to come to some theories of your own instead of relying on the last text book you read.

Do me a favour any posts by me just ignore them or don't tell me I am claiming things when i haven't. Read the damn posts properly and try and understand that a general comment about some religious sects does not refer to or mean all of them unless that is stated to be the case and i never make statements unless I can actually back them up.
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Post by Ted »

First of all people should learn how to read interpret sacred texts of many faits.. Now I do not tell others what to believe or what to ignore and have no desire to. If folks want to know what I thin k I answer their questions. I do not preach against atheism nor others of the major faiths of the world. Those who want to attack me for what I believe, I couldn't care less. We must all choose our own journy. You don't like my journey, tough sh*t.

Happy new year.
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Post by Clodhopper »

I've said this before on here I think, but it's noticeable to me that Christianity went on Crusade about 12 or 1300 years after foundation and here is Islam doing the exact same thing on the same timescale. A feature of big monotheistic religions?

Religious war is the only thing worse than civil war imo. Killing and torturing in the name of God is devil worship of the most extreme sort (again, my opinion)
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Clodhopper;1504831 wrote: I've said this before on here I think, but it's noticeable to me that Christianity went on Crusade about 12 or 1300 years after foundation and here is Islam doing the exact same thing on the same timescale. A feature of big monotheistic religions?

Religious war is the only thing worse than civil war imo. Killing and torturing in the name of God is devil worship of the most extreme sort (again, my opinion)


Very true, the evolution of the two religions is parallel to the Nth degree.
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Post by Ahso! »

This didn't begin as a religious war though, did it? Didn't it begin with al qaeda being disrespected when the Saudis passed them over for the US as a sort of protection agency? Doesn't religion take on a unifying cause for recruitment of said cause? I think the Bush administration had as large a roll as anyone in turning this into a religious war.
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Post by tude dog »

Clodhopper;1504831 wrote: I've said this before on here I think, but it's noticeable to me that Christianity went on Crusade about 12 or 1300 years after foundation and here is Islam doing the exact same thing on the same timescale. A feature of big monotheistic religions?

Religious war is the only thing worse than civil war imo. Killing and torturing in the name of God is devil worship of the most extreme sort (again, my opinion)


Since day one Islam has been on a crusade.





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Post by Clodhopper »

I see your point. But although Christianity did not expand in the same way originally (it piggybacked the Roman Empire, it did not need to conquer a new one), there was certainly a lot of forcible conversion in the Reconquista and the New World. But I'm talking about periods of exceptional violence which it seems to me the Crusades and the current Islamic horrors are. It may be coincidence that there have been such outbreaks the same length of time after the religion was founded - two is not a big enough sample to be sure - but equally it may not be coincidence.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504824 wrote: First of all people should learn how to read interpret sacred texts of many faits.. Now I do not tell others what to believe or what to ignore and have no desire to. If folks want to know what I thin k I answer their questions. I do not preach against atheism nor others of the major faiths of the world. Those who want to attack me for what I believe, I couldn't care less. We must all choose our own journy. You don't like my journey, tough sh*t.

Happy new year.


posted by ted

Reading gmc's posts rather makes me laugh. He tries to tar everyone with the same brush. Apparently he has no respect for good solid scholarship. Now to the point of religion. They have found evidence of ritual and religious buriels from as far back and 30 000 years. As I said elsewhere Karen Armstrong is a well respected historian and so is Bart Ehrman. Neither seem to have a problem with the reality of God. The statement that religion was created to control people is a joke. It has been used for that at times. A statistical study has shown that more people have died under atheists and game players and not because of the church. Talk about a fundamentalist evangelical spouting off I've just read. Yes there have been lots of atrocities in the name of God or the church but that is still overshadowed by the non religious wars throughout history. Religious people have done more for humanity than non religious. Though the non religious have done such work as well.

The historical evidence shows that religious belief and comforted many folks down through the millennia the sick the dying the homeless. religious folks pushed for higher education, Food banks,s soup kitchens, I really do not understand what is wrong with feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, visiting those in prison, clothing the naked etc. Not to mention fighting for justice. There are also many lies passed on in ignorance about the church and a belief in the reality of God.




I don't know what you believe nor do I care what chrurch you claim to be a member of that that bears no resemblence to the ones I mention in a general discussion that was not about your church in the fisrt place is not like any.

You started this up until the above post you hadn't been taking part. If you are going to challenge me on what I say then do so and how you can turn a generic thread about religion in to a personal attack on your faith completely escapes me. If you don't like discsusing religion then don't do so but also don't make the mistake of assuming that critics of religion havn't actually given a great deal of thought and study to the matter. You say I have claimed things when I have not and blithely assume I am unable to back up any assertion I have made resorting to a kind of pathetic patronising dismissal of anything you don't like. That's your prerogative but it's hardly conducive to discussion.

I have actuallty read the texts of different faiths most religious people in my experience have read one and assume all the rest are wrong and only theirs will show the way to god and happily spend their time worshipping something that there is no evidence to suggest exists. If any of them could ever prove beyond doubt god existed it would bge truly somethinmg. But no followers are expected to believe in a god that hides his existence and communicates through oibscure coded texts.

posted by bryn mawr

Very true, the evolution of the two religions is parallel to the Nth degree.


Yet only in europe and the middle east does religion seem to have ben a major cause/excuse for war, realpolitick with a swinging orb in one hand and sword in the other. . When ghengis khan created the greates empire the world has even know fighting with and against him were pagans, nestorian christians, muslims tribes of all different races. religion was neither the cement nor the divisive element until you look at europe an the middle east whose poison seems to spread throughouit the world.

I'm sure I culd put a case together with that as a central theme but there's never just one factor at play. Without oil no one in the west would care what happens in the middle east and would have no reason to topple unfriendly rulers but before that it was over trade routes to the far east from roman times and beyond - the seige of troy started over control of the trade routes helen just got the blame.
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Clodhopper;1504883 wrote: I see your point. But although Christianity did not expand in the same way originally (it piggybacked the Roman Empire, it did not need to conquer a new one), there was certainly a lot of forcible conversion in the Reconquista and the New World. But I'm talking about periods of exceptional violence which it seems to me the Crusades and the current Islamic horrors are. It may be coincidence that there have been such outbreaks the same length of time after the religion was founded - two is not a big enough sample to be sure - but equally it may not be coincidence.


You are trying to say at the beginning, Islam spread by word or mouth, missionaries, and other peaceable means?

I have no data to prove it, but it seems to me people just do not give up their beliefs all that easily.
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Post by Ahso! »

gmc;1504887 wrote: Without oil no one in the west would care what happens in the middle east and would have no reason to topple unfriendly rulersI question this idea. I think what the west has been willing to do all this violence for is consumerism in general. The west is looking to expand capitalism. It's always about jobs. Jobs is the single most important illusion politicians get elected and re-elected on. All politics is local. It's somewhat sad but true.
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Post by Ted »

gmc You have been attacking all religioins as far as I can see but you have not offended me. Many of your points are good. But it is not appropriate to judge the past on today's values and present behaviour. You have made statements that simply do not fit the reality. I do not go about attacking atheism or any of the like. The world is in bad shape when all we can do is be negative. I respect all the great faiths of the world as well and those of no faith. Whatever turns your crank.
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Post by Clodhopper »

No, I'm saying Christianity didn't need to conquer an empire - it just used the Roman Empire, hence the Pope being head of the Roman catholic church, based in Rome, capital of the Roman Empire. Islam did not have a ready made Empire to fill so did go and conquer. Just as Christianity did in the New World or in Spain during the Reconquista. If I remember right Islam did not go much for forcible conversion (though I could be wrong) it was just you got a better deal if you were a muslim so many converted for that reason.

Please note that personally I dislike Islam and especially its prophet who seems a deeply inadequate small minded person, incapable of dealing with women, opposition or dissent who created a religion for the sole purpose of being able to say opposing him was opposing God. However, I don't think much of the murderer who founded Mormonism either, but in both cases the religion has produced people of great wisdom and holiness, which suggests God is a lot greater than any human and His purpose works out no matter what. (Assuming he exists)
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1504913 wrote: gmc You have been attacking all religioins as far as I can see but you have not offended me. Many of your points are good. But it is not appropriate to judge the past on today's values and present behaviour. You have made statements that simply do not fit the reality. I do not go about attacking atheism or any of the like. The world is in bad shape when all we can do is be negative. I respect all the great faiths of the world as well and those of no faith. Whatever turns your crank.


OK One last time Such as? Please try and remember I am not talking about your particular version of faith.

Posted by ahso

I question this idea. I think what the west has been willing to do all this violence for is consumerism in general. The west is looking to expand capitalism. It's always about jobs. Jobs is the single most important illusion politicians get elected and re-elected on. All politics is local. It's somewhat sad but true.


I'd mostly agree with you. Capitalism as a concept is relataively new phenomenon. The middle east has always been an area of conflict because of it's postion on the world's trade routes. Europe as a world power is also relatively new up until the middle ages had little impact on world affairs - the roman empire received a spanking when they tried to move east in to persia and there were other empires that proved to be a match for them. Spain, portugal, holland and britain were all on the periphery it's an amazing phenomenon that they ended up as powerful as they did.

You can make a pretty good case that all wars have economic causes fighting over resources or trade routes but to get peoples to go to war for a ruler you need a bit more religion has been used by rulers to justify their rule get their own way for thousands of years but when it's religious leaders settinng the pace and tryimng tom extend their religion then it gets really nasty. The crusades started because constantinople was in danger iof being sacked, asked the western pope for help and he saw it as an opportunity to distract the european states from trying to kill each other, weaken the eastern church and the crusaders saw it as a chance for booty and a good fight and the worst atrocities were commited by the godly. You could also argue that christian it radicalised middle eastern islamic society except shia and sunni were at it before the crusades started. I don't think there is any one simple explanation.

posted by tude dog

I have no data to prove it, but it seems to me people just do not give up their beliefs all that easily.


Yes and no, convert or die is quite a good argument or if your conqueror has a different relgion then adopting it makes a lot of sense. The social power of eligion and it's ability to ostracise from society anyone who doesn't fit in is formidable.

Now we have the current pope, the head of the greek orthodox church calling for a holy war on secuularism, god forbid anyone should challenge their authority and their right to interfere in our lives. The 21st century and religion has a baleful effect on all our lives. I make no apologies for being agin it.
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Post by Ted »

gmc actually I agree with your condemnation except that I know there are those who have abused their situation in the name of God. I also know that Christianity has and is changing. You are correct in that many crimes have been co9mmited in the name of God. A couple of good books, and I don't expect you will read them but here they are "Literalism is a Gentile Heresy" by Bishop John kSpong and "Christianity After Religion" by Diana Butler-Bass...
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Post by gmc »

mc You have been attacking all religioins as far as I can see but you have not offended me. Many of your points are good. But it is not appropriate to judge the past on today's values and present behaviour. You have made statements that simply do not fit the reality. I do not go about attacking atheism or any of the like. The world is in bad shape when all we can do is be negative. I respect all the great faiths of the world as well and those of no faith. Whatever turns your crank.




You're still dodging the question aren't you.aren't you. Why can't you just come up with any statement you claim I have made that does not fit with reality as you claim then we can have a sensible debate about it Don't make pronouncements like that unless you can back them up and are prepared to do so.



Ted;1504980 wrote: gmc actually I agree with your condemnation except that I know there are those who have abused their situation in the name of God. I also know that Christianity has and is changing. You are correct in that many crimes have been co9mmited in the name of God. A couple of good books, and I don't expect you will read them but here they are "Literalism is a Gentile Heresy" by Bishop John kSpong and "Christianity After Religion" by Diana Butler-Bass...


What do you mean by christianity has and is changing? Quite clearly you are not a christian gmc I am not a theist or a deist. Even if you do now turn round and claim that you believe in jesus christ (father son or holy ghost) there are many who will argue that you are not actually a christrian becauser you don't follow their version of it and condemn you to hell fot that. Juist to clrify if you do not believe jesus christ was the son of god then you are not a christian since beleif he is is rather fundamental

Christianity isn't changing none of them have really all that has happened is that the pope et al lost their aithority and people are less likely to tolerate their abuses but they havn't given up in their desire to have everyone blindly following their ditats. Look at what is happening in poland, russia, malaysia, india as the church-ES) tries to get back control of the populace tolerance is always the first victim when religion rules even when most people do not follow the religion in question the desire to make everybody confiorm is one religious fundamentalist just can't curb themselves.

posted by ted

gmc actually I agree with your condemnation except that I know there are those who have abused their situation in the name of God. I also know that Christianity has and is changing. You are correct in that many crimes have been co9mmited in the name of God. A couple of good books, and I don't expect you will read them but here they are "Literalism is a Gentile Heresy" by Bishop John kSpong and "Christianity After Religion" by Diana Butler-Bass...


Yoiu're doing it again why should I care what they have to say? Do your own research then maybe you might be able to construct an argument of your own rather than trying to impress with people you think have some kind of "authority". The bible is quite clearly man made as are all religions now go ahead and demonstrate why you think that statement is untrue.
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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1504929 wrote: OK One last time Such as? Please try and remember I am not talking about your particular version of faith.



Now we have the current pope, the head of the greek orthodox church calling for a holy war on secuularism, god forbid anyone should challenge their authority and their right to interfere in our lives. The 21st century and religion has a baleful effect on all our lives. I make no apologies for being agin it.


That is hilarious.

Secularists are afraid of those of us religious folk.
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Post by gmc »

tude dog;1505135 wrote: That is hilarious.

Secularists are afraid of those of us religious folk.


Afraid is the wrong word wary and concerned because we realise what religious folk are capable of that wouild be a better way of putting it. Tell me has any secularist tried to prevent you going to church or living your life as you wish recently?

Read the declaration fo yourself - did you think I was making it up?

Full text: Pope Francis and Patriarch Kirill’s joint declaration – CatholicHerald.co.uk

They want the right to discriminate against those who do not conform to what they view as the correct family model -

The family is based on marriage, an act of freely given and faithful love between a man and a woman. It is love that seals their union and teaches them to accept one another as a gift. Marriage is a school of love and faithfulness. We regret that other forms of cohabitation have been placed on the same level as this union, while the concept, consecrated in the biblical tradition, of paternity and maternity as the distinct vocation of man and woman in marriage is being banished from the public conscience.


Hope you're not divorced, a single parent or the product of one or lbgt just wanting to live out your life in peace. In the USA you have christian fundamentalists, none of whom are being prevented from worshipping or living life as they choose, trying to prevent the teaching of science or women having access to family planning and who thnk trump is the second coming and who believe god and white men made america great methinks you've got a lot more to worry about than I do.

At the same time, we are concerned about the situation in many countries in which Christians are increasingly confronted by restrictions to religious freedom, to the right to witness to one’s convictions and to live in conformity with them. In particular, we observe that the transformation of some countries into secularized societies, estranged from all reference to God and to His truth, constitutes a grave threat to religious freedom. It is a source of concern for us that there is a current curtailment of the rights of Christians, if not their outright discrimination, when certain political forces, guided by an often very aggressive secularist ideology, seek to relegate them to the margins of public life.


Leave us alone you sanctimonious creeps, these are organisations whose concern fior human rights only extends to those they approve of. Their past history is not exactly one to be proud of.

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