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Ted
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Post by Ted »

gmc good post. I'm am a very devout Christian but I'm also a supporter of secularism. Guess I'm a sexularist Christian. Marriage is a human construct. We now know that GLBTQ segment of our world are genetically disposed to their alternative lifestyle. After all kGod created them if you so believe. Christianity has made the big problem of trying to convert the world just abouit the same as Muslims. Granted ISIL is supposedly a muslim group but not ac cording to the average Muslim.. Satan of course was a concept borrowed from the Mesopotamians every bit as much as the creation stories were borrowed from Gilgamesh.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1505245 wrote: gmc good post. I'm am a very devout Christian but I'm also a supporter of secularism. Guess I'm a sexularist Christian. Marriage is a human construct. We now know that GLBTQ segment of our world are genetically disposed to their alternative lifestyle. After all kGod created them if you so believe. Christianity has made the big problem of trying to convert the world just abouit the same as Muslims. Granted ISIL is supposedly a muslim group but not ac cording to the average Muslim.. Satan of course was a concept borrowed from the Mesopotamians every bit as much as the creation stories were borrowed from Gilgamesh.


sexularist christian? No temptation resisted.

You're not making any sense

gmc I am not a theist or a deist.




If you do not believe in god or gods then you cannot be a christian since one of the main beliefs has to be jesus as the son of god or one of the holy trinity. If you don't understand that then there are plenty of christrians on this forum who will no doubt be happy to explain it to you. If you do believe jesus was the son of god or indeed god himself then you cannot claim not to be a theist or a deist. I begin to wonder of you understand the concepts you are using. Yes marrfiage is a human construct (as is all religion) brought about when the inheritance of property started to matter and fathers wanted to be sure the children they were providing for were actually their's. It is also responsible for the terrible concept of legitimate and illegitimate children giving the holy rollers something else to tut tut about.



You are still dodging my question I assume because you are unable to answer it. I can back up my statements I doubt very much you can since you dodge every opportunity and contradict yourself constantly.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1505360 wrote: If you do not believe in god or gods then you cannot be a christianOi! You're at least 90 years behind the times, of course you can.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1505362 wrote: Oi! You're at least 90 years behind the times, of course you can.


I bet I can find a few million more christians that disagree with you than you can find agree with you - then of course many would argue that those who think as you do are not christian and so their opinion does not count.

I'm not going to argue with you I think the whole religious thing is a load of bollocks but being non religious I won't hold a grudge if you disagree with me.

Was jesus the son of god or god himself and where does the holy spirit come in to it. If you don't actually believe in a god it's kind of a silly discussion but one many christians take very seriously indeed. They wouldn't be able to have a good argument with him to them ted cannot be a christian since he says he does not believe in god in the first place - that jesus was the son of or god himself becomes a pointless discussion.

Ted says he is a christian but does not believe in god (his words not mine) I assume he means he follows christian teaching without the actual belief in jesus christ as his saviour. He brought the matter up otherwise i would not have picked up on it I don't really want to discuss someones personal beliefs cos it gets too personal, religion is something (in my experience) many cannot discuss objectively usually because they haven't actually thought for themselves or just donlt want to think about it likeing the certainty of beleif even if it is nonsense.

To claim that the Judaeo-christian faith is based on fear is not true.


Ted doesn't like that statement claims it is untrue but is totally incapable of countering it because he can't, be an interesting discussion if he would try



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Post by spot »

It's an unavoidable answer - there are Christians who will tell you without any doubt that there's no invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and that it's hokey religious power-play to even think there might be.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1505365 wrote: It's an unavoidable answer - there are Christians who will tell you without any doubt that there's no invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and that it's hokey religious power-play to even think there might be.


the quote seemed apposite. Obviously not literally a man in the sky but they do presumably believe in god.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1505367 wrote: the quote seemed apposite. Obviously not literally a man in the sky but they do presumably believe in god.


Watch my lips.

No we don't, not if you mean by the word "god" any combination of creator, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-powerful, eternal or external.

If you mean something else by the word, what do you mean?
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Post by Ahso! »

spot;1505368 wrote: Watch my lips.

No we don't, not if you mean by the word "god" any combination of creator, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-powerful, eternal or external.

If you mean something else by the word, what do you mean?Do you consider yourself a christian atheist, spot?
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Post by gmc »

spot;1505368 wrote: Watch my lips.

No we don't, not if you mean by the word "god" any combination of creator, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-powerful, eternal or external.

If you mean something else by the word, what do you mean?


God

É¡É’d/

noun

noun: God; noun: god; plural noun: gods; plural noun: the gods

1.

(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.






What do I mean? How did this end up being a discussion about your particular set of beliefs. Toi be a christian requires you believe that JC was the son of god or one of the holy trinity depending on your particular brand of christianity. Where do you stand on the holy trinity for many christians belief in that is also required to be a christian that is an issue scratch a protestant an they will explain why catholics are not christian just as most devout catholics will explain why protestants are not "true" christians. Christians recognise Jesus as the Son of God who was sent to save mankind from death and sin. That is something at least all christians agree on.

Now if you mean that you are a christian in that you follow some of tne tenets of christian teachings then say so but don't claim to be a christian unless you also believe you will find resdemption through the sacrifice JC made on your behalf. If you believe in god but not that JC was one then you are a theist not a christian.

An atheist is simply someone that does not think there is sufficient evidence that god exists and that is often about all they agree on. If you don't believe in god at least have the courage to say so why bother dissembling and pretending to be a mickey mouse christian.?
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Post by spot »

gmc;1505371 wrote: Toi be a christian requires you believe that JC was the son of god or one of the holy trinity depending on your particular brand of christianity.Your problem is that you're displaying your prejudiced ignorance of the facts. The facts are as I've stated already. It is entirely possible to be a Christian while disavowing the existence of both God and Jesus. Neither statement of belief is a requirement for the authentic practice of Christianity. Perhaps you're confusing the Thirty Nine Articles of the Church of England, or one of the various creeds, as a precondition for admission to Christianity. They are not. A valid baptism is, if you're specifying traditional Christian dogma.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1505372 wrote: Your problem is that you're displaying your prejudiced ignorance of the facts. The facts are as I've stated already. It is entirely possible to be a Christian while disavowing the existence of both God and Jesus. Neither statement of belief is a requirement for the authentic practice of Christianity. Perhaps you're confusing the Thirty Nine Articles of the Church of England, or one of the various creeds, as a precondition for admission to Christianity. They are not. A valid baptism is, if you're specifying traditional Christian dogma.


Bollocks. You can follow the teachings of jesus but you can't claim to be a christian unless you accept that he was the messiah and your path to redemption.

I'm a christian but I don't believe jesus was the son of god and the messiah and by the way I don't think there is a god . Who are you kidding.

The facts are as I've stated already. It is entirely possible to be a Christian while disavowing the existence of both God and Jesus. Neither statement of belief is a requirement for the authentic practice of Christianity.


That's not a fact it's your opinion and one I find ridiculous. Belief in god without the fairy tale elements is still belief in god. Now tell me spot why do you think there is a god?
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Post by spot »

gmc;1505374 wrote: Now tell me spot why do you think there is a god?


"the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being"? There isn't. Of course there isn't. It's insanity to think there could be. The concept is obscene.
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Post by Ahso! »

Ahso!;1505369 wrote: Do you consider yourself a Christian atheist, spot?I'm not certain if you missed this or chose not to answer so I'll repost it to be sure. I suppose the proper label would be atheist Christian though.
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1505389 wrote: I'm not certain if you missed this or chose not to answer so I'll repost it to be sure. I suppose the proper label would be atheist Christian though.


Pure bred-in-the-bone guaranteed baptized Methodist with a state-sponsored certificate in Religious Instruction, undeniably Christian and prone to take exception when told I don't qualify.
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Post by Ahso! »

I didn't say you don't qualify, but not believing in a God would make you an atheist as well as a Christian if you follow those precepts. There is such a thing as Christian Atheism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
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Post by spot »

I had no idea the term existed. Yes, you can sign my name to that too.

And to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory
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Post by Ahso! »

Where do you get the Christian precepts you follow? The epistles or perhaps the Beatitudes of the gospels? Somewhere else?
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1505399 wrote: Where do you get the Christian precepts you follow? The epistles or perhaps the Beatitudes of the gospels? Somewhere else?


Tradition within the church. People in the past have practiced Christianity and they hand it down to subsequent generations. Each in turn modifies that practice in the light of their cultural setting. The New Testament shows the tradition as it stood in the second and third century CE, where it was appropriate for the culture of the time. The Old Testament shows other aspects which informed the culture of the New Testament writers. All of it has fed into Christian practice down the ages, together with changed understanding of what is necessary.

I would offer, as a suggestion, that if previous Christian generations would not be horrified at what the present Christian generation is doing, then the present Christian generation is failing in its duty of service to the community in which it is placed. Rejecting the historical existence of God and of Jesus are aspects of that duty for this generation, and a lot of that rejection is informed by the Holocaust.
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Post by Ahso! »

That's respectful of the tradition of both the institution and past generations of followers. Supposing there's some end result eventually, what might that look like way down the road? Where is Christianity headed if it follows your model?
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Post by spot »

There can be no destination, there is only the journey. In time there will be no more intelligent life and all this will be forgotten, there will be an informational void.

How we reach that point is what counts. Either we do it elegantly or we do it disgracefully. The Christian life is one of the ways of not letting the side down.
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Post by Ted »

Certain ly very interesting. I class myself as a Christian but I do not accept dogma and doctrine. In the process of finishing "Literalism is a Gentile Heresy". Spong shows that the gospels are really Jewish writings and as such need to be interpreted It is interesting to note that literalists loose their literalism when it comes to money.. Neat book.
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Post by Ahso! »

spot;1505407 wrote: There can be no destination, there is only the journey. In time there will be no more intelligent life and all this will be forgotten, there will be an informational void.

How we reach that point is what counts. Either we do it elegantly or we do it disgracefully. The Christian life is one of the ways of not letting the side down.
Fair enough. What do you see as the duty of the next generation of followers?
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Post by Ted »

Let us not forget there are some 22 000 various Christian sects around the world and several of them claim to have the only truth. That also lends itself for folks from the whole spectrum of extremism on both ends of the scale. The fundamentalists are great for judging though even when cautioned not to do so I don't think that means to egnore evil and it should be judged..
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Post by gmc »

spot;1505390 wrote: Pure bred-in-the-bone guaranteed baptized Methodist with a state-sponsored certificate in Religious Instruction, undeniably Christian and prone to take exception when told I don't qualify.


The correct term might be heretic as in

noun

1A person believing in or practising religious heresy.

1.1 A person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.




and I'm sorry but to me anyone who does not believe JC was the son of god, god or one of the holy trinity is not a christian no matter how much you prattle on about following his teachings. Belief that jesus is the way to salvation is fundamental to being christian and none of the various christian sects would disgaree that jesus is the saviour except for the likes of christian atheist who twist themselves up in knots trying to rationalise it - it's an oxymoron. It's like saying I don't really beleive in god but I feel better if I come out with this crap.

An atheist is simply who is not convinced there is enough evidence to justify the belef in god if you want to follow christian teaching fine but surely you learned enough with your atate sponsored certificate in religious intrsction to know why christian is not somethimng you can call yourself. Or we can agree to disagree amnd just leave it alone since it's a bit pointless.
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Post by spot »

Ahso!;1505409 wrote: Fair enough. What do you see as the duty of the next generation of followers?


That's an easy one - to annoy the hell out of me and my cohort.
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Post by Ted »

Lol
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Post by gmc »

Never ending war is waged by the religious on secularism, freedom of thought and the rights of women. all that happens is we are free for a little while then the religious get back in control and all hell breaks loose again. Look at any country where religion plays a major part in political life and you will find a country where freedom and equality take a back burner to bogotry and hatred. nIn ondia, indonesia pakistan, turkey the rekligious are abouit to make life misery for ordinary people.

and ted befoire you stick your oar in I cabn back up my statement.
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Post by Ted »

gmc I don't totally disagree with you . The only thing I find that I can criticize is the implication that all religion is like that. Bonhofferll lwrote about "Religionless Christianity, , Butler-Bass wrote about Christianity after religion, John A T Robinson wrote "Honest to God" I think it is clear that all religions run both ways to extreme and there are those averazge folks in the middle who practise their religion basicly to themselves and they do a loot of good. It is the extremists who cause the problems/. Yes there has been much hurt caused by all religions but not by all religious. From my reading and studies I understand that Christianity was was not meant to be a religion but in fact a way of life. One doesn't have to wear their Christanity but live it. No preaching, no prosyllatising just live it.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1505556 wrote: gmc I don't totally disagree with you . The only thing I find that I can criticize is the implication that all religion is like that. Bonhofferll lwrote about "Religionless Christianity, , Butler-Bass wrote about Christianity after religion, John A T Robinson wrote "Honest to God" I think it is clear that all religions run both ways to extreme and there are those averazge folks in the middle who practise their religion basicly to themselves and they do a loot of good. It is the extremists who cause the problems/. Yes there has been much hurt caused by all religions but not by all religious. From my reading and studies I understand that Christianity was was not meant to be a religion but in fact a way of life. One doesn't have to wear their Christanity but live it. No preaching, no prosyllatising just live it.


I'm getting fed up with this ted. Religion and religious are generic terms it's very hard to talk about religion without using generic terms. Obviously not all religious people are died in the wool fundamentalists but generally speaking it is the nature of religion and the religious to want to influence and yes when they can impose their views on society as a whole it those ones that are actively trying to do so that am talking about. Niot all christians or muslims or hindus are fundamenatalist but those that are cause harm way beyond thei numbers and have always done so. For you to say not all are like that is not much of an argument since I am talking about the ones that currently are crating havoc all over the place.

I posted liknks elsewhere to the joint statement by the pope and the patriarch of the greek orthodox church what it boils down to is they want to go back to the good old days when they rul;ed the daily lives of everybody in society believers and noijn believers alike. America is about to wirnes an attack on the rights of women driven by the religious right who belive they know goid's will. In poland there are mass demonstration against the influece of an organisation that believes it is above the law and hoides it';s crimes from the secular authorities. The only war religion is involved in is the one constanly waged on other rleigions and on everyone in society.

You claim not to be a theist or a deist but a christian who has made up his own version. good luck to you but I wasn't referring to your religion or you in particular it really is not a good counter argument and is perhaps completely irrelevant. You're not a christian because you do not accept christ as your saviour that is how miost christians would view you no matter how much you say it is not essential to believe in JC as god to be a christian. You're going to hell keep a place for me next to the fire and we can roast marshmallow together and since I don't believe in hell you can help me get over the shock.
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Post by Ted »

gmc I don't disagree with a good deal of what you have said. That I'm not a Christian" no offense taken here, is belief of many but not all. The churches with which i'm familiar and that includes evangelicals which I do not hold to and the mainline churches whhich are walking hand in hand with many towards the secular belief. Any way yess the fundies are trying to return to the good old days but the likes of you and med will try to not let that happen. Then there is trump?????? The would have said the same thing about the historical Jesus because indeed he was not a Christtian. H was born a Jew and then some 30 to 34years he died a devout Jew. Jesus was not a Christian.
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Post by FourPart »

Christians have always murdered & tortured in the name of 'Peace & Love' & the one & only Divine word of God. Muslims have always done the same. Each has different sects within themselves. Each accuses the other of being heretics / infidels - yet they all claim to believe in the same God. They have the same characters in their scriptures. If each & every one believes that theirs is the only 'True' way, isn't it a bit arrogant to denounce their belief as being wrong?
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1505741 wrote: Christians have always murdered & tortured in the name of 'Peace & Love' & the one & only Divine word of God. Muslims have always done the same. Each has different sects within themselves. Each accuses the other of being heretics / infidels - yet they all claim to believe in the same God. They have the same characters in their scriptures. If each & every one believes that theirs is the only 'True' way, isn't it a bit arrogant to denounce their belief as being wrong?


If they could actually demonstrate the truth of it there would be no problem. Besides is it not rather arrogant of them to demand that their beliefs be sacrosanct and protected by the law of the land from ridicule? If god is threatened by laughter he has only himselef to blame. Nowadays of someone hears voices we judge them to be insane in the past they could create religions. If I ask a mormon if they find the special underwear more beneficial in winter am I making a friendly inquiry or taking the piss. Of the two mormon bishops I used to know one laughed and the other took offence, which one was most comfortable in his faith in your opinion.

If denouncing their beliefs as wrong or quite frankly plain ridiculous provokes an aggressive response as it usually gets or if their punishment of proselyte is to have them shunned or worse are we not right to question their beliefs or should we just keep quiet and let fear win.
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Post by Ted »

The only legal place to speak of religion should be in the constitution as a guarantee of religious for all and including those of no faith.
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1505770 wrote: The only legal place to speak of religion should be in the constitution as a guarantee of religious for all and including those of no faith.


I'm not american or candian but you just wrote goes against the right of free speech you don't have the right to tell anyone here they can or cannot speak about religion. As a non american I can say what I like about religion and politics anywhere I like.

Besides that what do you say to people who believe that the laws of god supercede those of man and that is their moral justification for objecting to, for example lbgt people having the same rights as them or women having free access to family planning clinics and who when they get the chance infringe on the rights of others when it coms to education, health care or even just the right to live their lives as they choose.

The problem I find when talking about religion is that most religious people cannot talk about the basic prroblem - why do they believe there is a god? To me an obvious question and a fascinating subject but the answer seems always to come back to I believe it. It's a good enough reason but they shouldn't be surprised when others are not convinced or be surprised when being told their beliefs should be respected and not challenged because they are religious beliefs is met with derision.
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Post by Ted »

gmc perhaps I worded that incorrectly because I go along with most of what you say. I believe in total free speach as long as it is not stirring people to violence. If that is an infringement on their right of free speacg so be it. That is what happens when you live in community. There have to be some rules and regulations to make the comunity operate smoothly.. As for the rest I really have no issue. As for God I can agree h/she/it is not provable in the scientific view. Hoveever I see God as an experiential reality.not a being to be proven or disproven.

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