Religious war

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spot
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Post by spot »

I shall try doing this from memory rather than looking anything up but the downside is that I can recall very little of the facts.

There is, possibly, a parallel between the current unrest in the Middle East and the most lethal war in the whole of the 19th century, one which killed more people than the Great War. It doesn't often get mentioned, but it was a religious war and it killed about 40 million people.

It was started, and fought, by a group of fundamentalist evangelical Christians who were attempting to convert the population of China to their extremist form of Christianity. I have it in mind that it happened in the 1880s but I might be wrong. I've even forgotten what it's generally called in the history books.

Forty million dead, and the whole war entirely forgotten by people at large. They were, admittedly, foreigners, but even so.

I can't add much detail, not without looking. But I do think it's very like ISIS except it was fundamentalist Christians running berserk instead of fundamentalist Muslims.

This war could never have had such lethal consequences had China not first been softened up by Western destabilization and I do remember the name of that part - that was the First and Second Opium Wars, fought solely for the benefit of capitalist enterprise and on the cynical pretense that it would allegedly be good for the Chinese in the long run, which it very much wasn't.
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Post by Ahso! »

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Post by Ahso! »

The Opium Wars if anyone is interested.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Opium-Wars
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Post by Ahso! »

I see you've listed this > history > religion.

Are you looking to discuss the rebellion; the wars; both; or the religious connection to radicalism? Just curious.

I suppose I could wait to see where you go next with it in your next post.
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Post by spot »

I'm rather hoping there are parallels to be drawn between that outbreak of Chinese nationalist Christian hysteria and the current Arab Muslim equivalent, but I've not gone exploring yet to see what I can make of the notion.
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Post by gmc »

Religion is a man made construct and has always played a useful part in wars as a tool to control the armies and people that was the whole point about the way the christian bible was carefully edited and christian doctrine laid down. Islam is no differnt and neither is judaism. In the Japanese civil wars christianity also played a part believe it or not ending up ,on the losing side and becoming prescribed.

Where there are no political institutions to saok up and handle dissidence then religios ones act as a substitute. That's what happened in saudi arabia since political dissent is not allowed wahibism was allowed to take it's place and now the rulers have a problem with a fundamentalist religion that is beyiond their control. In iran where the west overthrew a democratic government and brought in their puppet that allowed no opposition then religion became the focal point for the diccontented. Syria allowed no political discourse so religion gains foillowers. Politics and religion are not seperate.
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Post by spot »

Ahso's Britannica Taiping article has details which dovetail with modern-day Islamic fundamentalism. Compare this with ISIS, for example:Taiping Christianity placed little emphasis on New Testament ideas of kindness, forgiveness, and redemption. Rather, it emphasized the wrathful Old Testament God who demanded worship and obedience. Prostitution, foot-binding, and slavery were prohibited, as well as opium smoking, adultery, gambling, and use of tobacco and alcohol. Organization of the army was elaborate, with strict rules governing soldiers in camp and on the march. For those who followed these rules, an ultimate reward was promised. Zeng Guofan was astonished when, after the capture of Nanjing, almost 100,000 of the Taiping followers preferred death to capture.
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Post by Ahso! »

I'm not surprised by that. As GMC points out, religion is a tool, a mechanism by which men both use and adhere to for what appears to me to be something to accomplish.

Men seem to be almost mesmerized and obsessed by the idea of accomplishing whatever mission they set out to do. They'd often rather die in the act of it rather than quit. I'm not certain there's much difference between a man expiring from a heart attack by wearing himself out working or exercising or dying a martyr.

This obsession can definitely be and is most often a well meaning and positive endeavor - benign to the self and others. Religion and politics are endeavors of control though, and when ideas fail too many men too often default to brute force.
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Post by LarsMac »

I don't really see the parallel.

Taiping folks adapted a foreign religion, new to the area, perpetrated by foreigners, to interfere with the establishment. The movement sought to replace the long standing established empire with some self-serving religious lunatics.

The IS movement created itself from the ashes of the establishment, using a religion established well over a millennium ago.
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Post by spot »

Both succeeded only because their sphere of operation had been destabilized by external aggression.
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Post by Ahso! »

Who's got time for people to come around on their own in what leaders view as high stakes actions. Better to scare them into behaving and promise them they'll learn you were right in the end anyway.

Of course, in the end nobody really gets to add up the pros and cons of a long drawn out confrontation. They're either dead; old; wounded; enslaved; or high on victory to care about what got them there. Their goal at that point is how to get out or move on. The ones who do focus on the past might become suicidal I suppose.
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Post by Ahso! »

spot;1502929 wrote: Both succeeded only because their sphere of operation had been destabilized by external aggression.Perhaps even the ideas came about because of the effects of the prior outside aggression.
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1502927 wrote: I don't really see the parallel.

Taiping folks adapted a foreign religion, new to the area, perpetrated by foreigners, to interfere with the establishment. The movement sought to replace the long standing established empire with some self-serving religious lunatics.

The IS movement created itself from the ashes of the establishment, using a religion established well over a millennium ago.


The common factors are destabilisation and religion to proivide an answer whether it came from outside or not isn't really germane.Religion/ populist leader both play on the discontent around them and once they get power they almost invariably demand blind obedience and use fear to shut up any opposition. have a look at what is happening in turkey you are watching a secular state turn in to a religious one as erdogan systematically removes any likely to oppose him. Look at who trump is going after he doesn't seem to accept that in a free country people can boo pooliticians if they feel like it or that maybe presidents can't just imprison who they like.
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Post by Mickiel »

What has been interesting to me is the spread of " White Nationalism" in the world , and it has become its own religion. It invites a raw kind of racism and its government usually has a dictator at its head. From Europe to Russia , these governments it has spawned all have that "Whites are superior" attitude at their root consciousness. It infected Britain , it spread to America, and when it morphs with religion it gives birth to war.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1502962 wrote: What has been interesting to me is the spread of " White Nationalism" in the world , and it has become its own religion. It invites a raw kind of racism and its government usually has a dictator at its head. From Europe to Russia , these governments it has spawned all have that "Whites are superior" attitude at their root consciousness. It infected Britain , it spread to America, and when it morphs with religion it gives birth to war.


That is hardly a new phenomenon what do you think manifest destiny and the white man's burden was as well as all the european empire building was all about. Not to mention the nazis althiough religious apologists try to pretend that 2,000 years of preaching the jews killed jesus had nothng whatsoever to do with anti-semitism.

Racism is inherent in us all, fear of the other, but it takes religion to make racism in to a belief system that gets in to the core of some people without it familiarity helps get iover initial fear of the stranger. . You can trace the development of the notion that black people are inferior to white back to the need to have a justifacation for keeping them as slaves when enslaving fellow christians gradually made white slavery more socuially unacceptable (for europeans anyway) having black pople as inferior was a useful tactic. That all people are equal and entitled to the same human rights as everyone else is a secular concept by it's very nature the religious cannot view anyine else as their equal otherwise they have to reject the basic tenet of their religion that they are chosen to go to heaven and the rest are not.

If you look at the early history of the chruistian church there were black saints, black crusaders even prester john was supposed to come alomg and save white christendom.

Black / African Saints - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Right wing christian fascists are not something new whether it willl succed like it has in the past we shall soon find out. Meself I am more woprried about what happens in turkey, likely they will turn on the j=[kurds not least because they are sitting on the oil reserves.
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Post by Mickiel »

gmc;1502968 wrote: That is hardly a new phenomenon what do you think manifest destiny and the white man's burden was as well as all the european empire building was all about. Not to mention the nazis althiough religious apologists try to pretend that 2,000 years of preaching the jews killed jesus had nothng whatsoever to do with anti-semitism.

Racism is inherent in us all, fear of the other, but it takes religion to make racism in to a belief system that gets in to the core of some people without it familiarity helps get iover initial fear of the stranger. . You can trace the development of the notion that black people are inferior to white back to the need to have a justifacation for keeping them as slaves when enslaving fellow christians gradually made white slavery more socuially unacceptable (for europeans anyway) having black pople as inferior was a useful tactic. That all people are equal and entitled to the same human rights as everyone else is a secular concept by it's very nature the religious cannot view anyine else as their equal otherwise they have to reject the basic tenet of their religion that they are chosen to go to heaven and the rest are not.

If you look at the early history of the chruistian church there were black saints, black crusaders even prester john was supposed to come alomg and save white christendom.

Black / African Saints - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

Right wing christian fascists are not something new whether it willl succed like it has in the past we shall soon find out. Meself I am more woprried about what happens in turkey, likely they will turn on the j=[kurds not least because they are sitting on the oil reserves.




Well racism , religion , war ; its all really about human nature. What happens in Turkey , the Middle East , even America is at its root , still human nature ; the things that we do. And why we do those things. Which is why the bible interest me , it goes directly into human nature like no other book I have read. It opens up why we humans tear this earth apart , why we kill each other , why humans behave as they do. But putting that aside, I expect humans in areas all over the globe to continue on a track of terror and just horrible behavior in high places.

In just my life time I have seen humans do terrible things, hardly nothing shocks me any more. I think hate wars , or nationalism wars are the worse, far worse than religious wars. The Hitler purge in example. Humans thinking that killing other humans gives a sterilization to humanity. Political wars are horrible , religious wars are to be condemned. But when you kill me because you think my race deserves to be killed , and yours deserves to live, that is a serious thing.

Again , Religious wars , Political wars and Nationalism wars will keep coming , but in my view , the worse of those wars , the most intense and hateful kind of war , is Nationalist wars. When a race kills to sterilize the earth.
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Post by gmc »

Mickiel;1502970 wrote: Well racism , religion , war ; its all really about human nature. What happens in Turkey , the Middle East , even America is at its root , still human nature ; the things that we do. And why we do those things. Which is why the bible interest me , it goes directly into human nature like no other book I have read. It opens up why we humans tear this earth apart , why we kill each other , why humans behave as they do. But putting that aside, I expect humans in areas all over the globe to continue on a track of terror and just horrible behavior in high places.

In just my life time I have seen humans do terrible things, hardly nothing shocks me any more. I think hate wars , or nationalism wars are the worse, far worse than religious wars. The Hitler purge in example. Humans thinking that killing other humans gives a sterilization to humanity. Political wars are horrible , religious wars are to be condemned. But when you kill me because you think my race deserves to be killed , and yours deserves to live, that is a serious thing.

Again , Religious wars , Political wars and Nationalism wars will keep coming , but in my view , the worse of those wars , the most intense and hateful kind of war , is Nationalist wars. When a race kills to sterilize the earth.


The bible is man made a coolection of stories to explain out origins that no one with half a brain should be taking literally and religion had been used to manipulate people since time began.

In just my life time I have seen humans do terrible things, hardly nothing shocks me any more. I think hate wars , or nationalism wars are the worse, far worse than religious wars. The Hitler purge in example. Humans thinking that killing other humans gives a sterilization to humanity. Political wars are horrible , religious wars are to be condemned. But when you kill me because you think my race deserves to be killed , and yours deserves to live, that is a serious thing.


Are you seriously suggesting that anti-semirtism and hitler has nothing to do with religion? Hitler thought he was doing god's work and he had the backing of the catoilic church to do it the pope ordered his priests to cease opposing him and to pray fpr him from their pulpits. Religious apologists simply ignore inconvenient facts as if bthey don't exist they taught goebbels, repeat a lie often enough and it becomes a truth. Come to that in what way was the vietnam war a war of nationalism? What did ameruica actually gain from it

Totalitarianism come from religion - total and abject submission tio the ruling church or state with followers willing to sacrifuce themselves for the "greater good". Stalin modelled his political alternative on the chrisrtian church - he was after all training to be a priest at one point where vdom you think he got it from?

What you see in the middle east is a very old story indeed it's not simple nationalism the yazidi are the same people as the muslims that slaughtered them. What's happening in turket is more serious IMO they have one of the most powerful militaries in the world except now minus their leadership.

It is also human naturte to live in peace with your neighbour, to share and help each other to be curious about other people and to learn from them. Religion is simply a tool to get people to hate and join tiogether against those who are different or who have resources you need. Read your bible you'll see what I mean.
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Post by Ted »

Are you seriously suggesting that anti-semirtism and hitler has nothing to do with religion?

That is exactly what I am saying. The use of religion for evil purposes has nothing to do with the religion itself. People use religion to justify many thin gs that are wrong.

T
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Post by gmc »

Ted;1503630 wrote: Are you seriously suggesting that anti-semirtism and hitler has nothing to do with religion?

That is exactly what I am saying. The use of religion for evil purposes has nothing to do with the religion itself. People use religion to justify many thin gs that are wrong.

T


Let's see how about an analogy. A gun being used in a murder i.e being used for evil (leaving aside whether evil exists or not) purposes has nothing to do with the gun itself.

The thing is religion isn't the simple tool it's more akin to the individual that incites the murderer to commit the act. without the incitement the murder might not actualyl take place. It may human nature to go to war but it is also human nature to live inpeace and to not want to kill your neighbour religion is the method to get people to do unspeakable things to others not like them the chosen have a god given right to do as they wish in god's name. For two thousand years the christian church has taught that the jews killed jesus and it too till the 1960's for the catholioc church to concede that not all jews are responsible for killing jesus just some of them.

To say religion had nothing to do with the holocaust is to ignore the facts. It's unlikely it would have hap[pened without it.

Totalitarianism takes it's inspiration from religion and it's demand for total subservience to an oprganisation. Christian, right wing, fascism the three go hand in hand. Islamic fundamentalisnm is a variation on the theme anyone not of their faith is going to hell and is less than human.
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Post by tude dog »

gmc;1503657 wrote: Let's see how about an analogy. A gun being used in a murder i.e being used for evil (leaving aside whether evil exists or not) purposes has nothing to do with the gun itself.

The thing is Marxism isn't the simple tool it's more akin to the individual that incites the murderer to commit the act. without the incitement the murder might not actualyl take place. It may human nature to go to war but it is also human nature to live inpeace and to not want to kill your neighbour Communism is the method to get people to do unspeakable things to others not like them the chosen have a god given right to do as they wish in Marx's name. For 168 years the communist has taught that the jews are capitalist money lenders for oppressing the proletariat, just some of them.

To say SOCIALISM had nothing to do with the holocaust is to ignore the facts. It's unlikely it would have hap[pened without it.

Totalitarianism takes it's inspiration from NIHIL SECULARISM and it's demand for total subservience to an oprganisation.

COMMUNIST, right wing, fascism the three go hand in hand. Islamic fundamentalisnm is a variation on the theme anyone not of their faith is going to hell and is less than human.


There.

Fixed it for ya.
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Post by gmc »

tude dog;1503677 wrote: There.

Fixed it for ya.


Actually you didn't. Stalin based his ideas of a totalitarian state on eligion he wanted to create somthing as an alternative to a religion used to keep an elite in power a state religion rather than one controlled by an elite except all he did was change the irles. One of the reasons communism didn't take hold in places like the UK and US is becauise an educated workforce saw right through to the flaw tat all you woulod do is breplace the masters. Have a read of animal farm it's what orwell was talking about. In america socialism and communism may be synonymous they are not elsewhere and wiouldn;t be in amrica if you stopped and thought about it. . Good grief even your unigue film genre - the western- consists mainly of themes that that could reasonably be described as propogating a socialist world view.

Totalitarianism takes it's inspiration from NIHIL SECULARISM and it's demand for total subservience to an oprganisation.


What on earth is that? Secularism isn't an alternative religion you should know that as you live in a secular state - at least for the moment. Nor is it nihilist.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.




- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.




Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1


The facts speak for themselves all you need to do is check them out rather than just believe what you are told. The holocaust would never have happened without the part played by religion.
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gmc;1503703 wrote: Actually you didn't. Stalin based his ideas of a totalitarian state on eligion he wanted to create somthing as an alternative to a religion used to keep an elite in power a state religion rather than one controlled by an elite except all he did was change the irles. One of the reasons communism didn't take hold in places like the UK and US is becauise an educated workforce saw right through to the flaw tat all you woulod do is breplace the masters. Have a read of animal farm it's what orwell was talking about. In america socialism and communism may be synonymous they are not elsewhere and wiouldn;t be in amrica if you stopped and thought about it. . Good grief even your unigue film genre - the western- consists mainly of themes that that could reasonably be described as propogating a socialist world view.


Maybe you have some Stalin quotes to back your claim that the Soviet Union under Stalin wasn't Socialist, or Communist or whatever.



gmc;1503703 wrote: What on earth is that? Secularism isn't an alternative religion you should know that as you live in a secular state - at least for the moment. Nor is it nihilist.


Thankfully I live in a country with a secular government. That does not mean that we are a secular nation.

gmc;1503703 wrote: What on earth is that? Secularism isn't an alternative religion you should know that as you live in a secular state - at least for the moment. Nor is it nihilist.


- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8



- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11



Selective comments from Mein Kampf?

Quote me something from that book about economics.

gmc;1503703 wrote: The facts speak for themselves all you need to do is check them out rather than just believe what you are told. The holocaust would never have happened without the part played by religion.


Hey, been there, done that.
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I live in the Deep South. The Bible Belt. Christianity runs deep. I think as a nation we were making progress in taking Christianity out of state and school. A slow process for sure....at the same time our country is watering down Christianity , all of a sudden Muslim arrived on the front scenes. The news, schools, etc...this religion is a direct threat to Christianity. Some people who were not all that religious all of a sudden are very very Christian now. Why is our country doing this?
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Post by gmc »

posted by tude dog

Maybe you have some Stalin quotes to back your claim that the Soviet Union under Stalin wasn't Socialist, or Communist or whatever.




Communism was a fantasy utopian dream that was and is never going to work, imposing liberty by force never actually works and the dictatorship of the proletariat is still a dictatorship. As non industrial societies neither russia or china should have been ripe for a communist revolution marx was wrong an educated workforce is harder to incite to blind obedience. It's a middle class fantasy of the better qualified leading the masses to enlightenment. Russia was a communist state in the same way saudi arabia, isis or iran are islamic states religion/politics used as a tool of oppression.

Like germany and indeed the US it had some socialist elements, healhcare free education etc. But stalin set out to create a totalitarian state with himself as the cult leader and yes I could dig out some quotes to show what his intent was but you can see what he did and you should really do your own research if you are that interested. Quite frankly russian political pamphlets are incredibly tedious to read, maybe the translations are at fault but like a lot of the left they get tied up in discussing the most minute aspects of doctrine and fall out over who is the most true to the doctrine just like religion in fact. It's really boring stuff. Stalin was illtreated by priests as a child blame the rleigious for creating a monster if you like. Maybe if the allied powers hadn't invaded russia at the end of ww1 the revolution might have turned out better who knows, it's pointless speculation.

Politics and religion used by the cynical to manipulate the masses for the benefit of a few seems to be the way it always ends up. Religion makes wars worse and often causes them but it's never just one thing you can point your finger at to blame.

Socialism and communism are not the same but the two get conflated as it's easier to counter the agrguments using labels rather actual discussion. That's why you don't have universal helthcare in the US you can't actually talk about it without brochure speak gettibng in the way .

You know where socialism gets a lot of it's ideas from? Adam Smith the wealth of nations he was an early advocate of free healthcare and free education (having been born in a country where the latter actually existed) and the payment of decent wages to help stimulate the economy. That's why your economy is going down the toilet all the well paid jobs have gone leaving no one able to buy anything to generate more demand. You don't have a capitalist economy any more just a bastard mutation caused by right wing economics.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

tude dog;1503711 wrote: Maybe you have some Stalin quotes to back your claim that the Soviet Union under Stalin wasn't Socialist, or Communist or whatever.






Do you actually know what Communism is? Stalin and his ilk are the exact opposite.
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Post by gmc »

Actually British and American dictionaries have slightly different takes on it

communism Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

the belief in a society without different social classes in which the methods of production are owned and controlled by all its members and everyone works as much as they can and receives what they need


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communism

a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed

2

capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively


Divided by a common language as it were.

Do you know the difference between a Communist and a Socialist? | The Independent

We say socialist they hear communist/totalitarian. Don't mention the fascists.:lips:
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Post by spot »

As far as the Soviet version of communism goes there's one additional aspect, the dictatorship of those who had been the industrialized working underclass. Power was deliberately not shared with other groups. There was a declared long-term intention to be classless but they never got close.
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Post by tude dog »

Guppers;1503719 wrote: I live in the Deep South. The Bible Belt. Christianity runs deep. I think as a nation we were making progress in taking Christianity out of state and school. A slow process for sure....at the same time our country is watering down Christianity , all of a sudden Muslim arrived on the front scenes. The news, schools, etc...this religion is a direct threat to Christianity. Some people who were not all that religious all of a sudden are very very Christian now. Why is our country doing this?


When and where I went to school never had prayer in school. Just wasn't done.

Then the Supreme Court Engel v. Vitale decrees expression of religion has no place in public schools. I was quite young at the time but the local schools allowed students to leave school early to attend a religious school of their parents choice. Didn't take long but that had to stop.

Go figure.

I now live in about as close to the Bible Belt as I care to get, and ya know what? I miss my landsmen but found a friend a Pastor and my Christian neighbors are just plain decent folk.
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gmc;1503731 wrote: Communism was a fantasy utopian dream that was and is never going to work


Well, gee.

You're incredible.
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Bryn Mawr;1503735 wrote: Do you actually know what Communism is? Stalin and his ilk are the exact opposite.


I do know, and we all seen the results, which continues to this day.
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spot;1503812 wrote: As far as the Soviet version of communism goes there's one additional aspect, the dictatorship of those who had been the industrialized working underclass. Power was deliberately not shared with other groups. There was a declared long-term intention to be classless but they never got close.


You gotta be chitting me.

It's always about power which continues to this day.
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tude dog;1503817 wrote: Well, gee.

You're incredible.


I know that nice that you think so too:yh_rotfl

Seriously though what else did you expect me to say?

It's always about power which continues to this day.




Yep that's why the secularists that wrote your constitution tried to build in chaceks and balances. Be interesting to see what trump does amd whether they will work in this day abd age.

posted by spot

As far as the Soviet version of communism goes there's one additional aspect, the dictatorship of those who had been the industrialized working underclass. Power was deliberately not shared with other groups. There was a declared long-term intention to be classless but they never got close.






That's hardly uniguely russian the dictatorship of the preleteriat comers from karl marx it was supposed to be followed by enlightend humans living togather in peace and harmony taking opnly wjat they need and giving freely for the betterment of society. Bit like star trek the next generation.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/dictat ... roletariat

The dictatorship of the proletariat originally was conceived by Karl Marx (1818–83) as a dictatorship by the majority class. Because Marx regarded all governments as class dictatorships, he viewed proletarian dictatorship as no worse than any other form of government. However, the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia in 1917 resulted in a dictatorship not of the majority class of proletarians but of a political party that claimed to represent proletarian interests. Contrary to Marx’s vision and as George Orwell (1903–50), Mikhail Bakunin (1814–76), and others had foreseen, the proposed dictatorship of the proletariat eventually became a dictatorship of former proletarians.


Like I said middle class utopian fantasy that was never going to work. At least religion makes no pretence about caring for everyone equally just the chosen ones all the rest can go to hell.
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tude dog;1503818 wrote: I do know, and we all seen the results, which continues to this day.


Well you appear to think that the Soviet Union under Stalin was communist so I very much doubt you do.
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Bryn Mawr;1503858 wrote: Well you appear to think that the Soviet Union under Stalin was communist so I very much doubt you do.


It wasn't a workers paradise, no more than Hitler's National Socialism, or Mao's version etc.

It all started with Karl Marx and his book Das Kapital which nobody reads or understands.

Lenin started the mass murder in Russia and his legacy continues to this day.
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gmc;1503827 wrote: At least religion makes no pretence about caring for everyone equally just the chosen ones all the rest can go to hell.


Where did you get that from? I mean really, who speaks for religion?
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tude dog;1503885 wrote: Where did you get that from? I mean really, who speaks for religion?


Torquemada's Jesuit inquisition in Spain at one stage, on a significant scale. His support for "to hell with backsliders" is blatant and he wrote on that exact basis at length.
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tude dog;1503885 wrote: Where did you get that from? I mean really, who speaks for religion?


Did you sleep through your religious studies classes or something? Catholic/greek orthodox/ protestant, muslim jew etc etc. pplenty people claim to speak to god and for him.

I find it hard to believe you know so little about religion that you are unaware of the fate facing non believers. It's kind of the whole point about being a believer that you are one of the chosen that get to heaven but I suppose you could argue that the religious spend their time trying to convert and save people and it's their choice not to believe in a god that gave them free will to decide but who also knows what that choice will be which I assume is what you were getting at. At the end of the day though the religious will be happy to go in to heaven leaving all non believers to their fate - no mercy or compassion there then and no pretence that there will be.
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spot;1503887 wrote: Torquemada's Jesuit inquisition in Spain at one stage, on a significant scale. His support for "to hell with backsliders" is blatant and he wrote on that exact basis at length.


Uh, really?

You and he are entitled to your opinions.

I've heard of this Torq, , ,guy before. Always have to look him up as I still fail to see his relevance to any conversation.
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gmc;1503894 wrote: Did you sleep through your religious studies classes or something? I find it hard to believe you know so little about religion that you are unaware of the fate facing non believers.


Not only I never fell asleep but studied my religious tradition and history.

Let me just say such concepts you present are foreign to me.
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tude dog;1503895 wrote: I've heard of this Torq, , ,guy before. Always have to look him up as I still fail to see his relevance to any conversation.


Ah.

He defines a major component of Christianity for most of the 1,700 years it's existed. He's central to the notion of heresy, ecclesiastical law and how the official genuine central church of Christianity punished backsliders. Hence the relevance to the present topic - religious war.
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tude dog;1503896 wrote: Not only I never fell asleep but studied my religious tradition and history.

Let me just say such concepts you present are foreign to me.


Heaven and hell are foreign concepts to you? The fundamental difference between catholic where you find your way to redemption by following a creed as laid down by the leaders or protestant where you find your own path to jesus those concepts are foreign to you? Father son and holy ghost have you heard of them?
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spot;1503897 wrote: Ah.

He defines a major component of Christianity for most of the 1,700 years it's existed. He's central to the notion of heresy, ecclesiastical law and how the official genuine central church of Christianity punished backsliders. Hence the relevance to the present topic - religious war.


We were talking about RELIGION.

Keep changing the subject.

I can't cope with that.
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tude dog;1503899 wrote: We were talking about RELIGION.

Keep changing the subject.

I can't cope with that.Torquemada was responsible for the deaths of everyone killed in his time in Spain for failing to be a Christian. He killed, primarily, Jews because they were resident in Spain but not Christian. He killed them because they pretended to be Christian but secretly retained their Jewish cultural and religious beliefs. His organization of fanatics, the Jesuits, was attempting to convert the non-Christian population of Spain to their extremist form of Christianity by waging a religious war.

The religious war the thread opened with was fought by a group of fundamentalist evangelical Christians who were attempting to convert the population of China to their extremist form of Christianity by waging a religious war.

In what way has the topic been changed, which you claim you can't cope with?
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tude dog;1503883 wrote: It wasn't a workers paradise, no more than Hitler's National Socialism, or Mao's version etc.

It all started with Karl Marx and his book Das Kapital which nobody reads or understands.

Lenin started the mass murder in Russia and his legacy continues to this day.


As it happens I have - the most boring book I've ever read.

All of which is immaterial to the type of government Russia had under Stalin which was a straight totalitarian regime and not in the remotest way communist.
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I understood it. But it did have boring moments.
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spot;1503900 wrote: Torquemada was responsible for the deaths of everyone killed in his time in Spain for failing to be a Christian. He killed, primarily, Jews because they were resident in Spain but not Christian. He killed them because they pretended to be Christian but secretly retained their Jewish cultural and religious beliefs. His organization of fanatics, the Jesuits, was attempting to convert the non-Christian population of Spain to their extremist form of Christianity by waging a religious war.


I was not aware that Torquemada is a fair representative of RELIGION.

spot;1503900 wrote: The religious war the thread opened with was fought by a group of fundamentalist evangelical Christians who were attempting to convert the population of China to their extremist form of Christianity by waging a religious war.


What is the status of religion in today's Communist China? The official atheist communist state responsible for the murders of tens of millions of people.



spot;1503900 wrote: In what way has the topic been changed, which you claim you can't cope with?


It was tempory.
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tude dog;1503948 wrote: I was not aware that Torquemada is a fair representative of RELIGION. There you are, then. Now you know. He even had qualifications in it and a papal bull to back what he did.
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Bryn Mawr;1503916 wrote: As it happens I have - the most boring book I've ever read.

All of which is immaterial to the type of government Russia had under Stalin which was a straight totalitarian regime and not in the remotest way communist.


To you and Spot, I am impressed.

Many years ago I read the Communist Manifesto which I found to be silly.
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spot;1503949 wrote: There you are, then. Now you know. He even had qualifications in it and a papal bull to back what he did.


Funny, I am a big fan of a Spanish Jew, Maimonides.

Due to Muslim intolerance towards Jews and Christians, his family decided to split.

I've spent a lot of time reading and studying his works.

If anybody were to represent RELIGION Maimonides in my world would be the first of many, many of different RELIGIONS.

Is there anything written by Tomás de Torquemada which anybody reads, studies much less respects today?
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tude dog;1503955 wrote: Is there anything written by Tomás de Torquemada which anybody reads, studies much less respects today?I'm sorry? Did Jesus leave any writings which anybody reads, studies much less respects today? Since when did the act of writing bestow religious authority or influence.
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