The European influence on Arab events

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LarsMac
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Post by LarsMac »

Found this today.

Anyone who wishes to discuss the current affairs of the Middle East should probably find Colonel Lawrence's work useful.

This is an interesting article on the subject.

Bill Moyers Essay: What We Can Learn From Lawrence of Arabia | Perspectives | BillMoyers.com
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Post by LarsMac »

And this is one of the articles to which the previous one refers.

A Report on Mesopotamia - by T.E. Lawrence

You could almost change references to "The people of England" and "British" to "US" and it is still quite relevant.
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Post by Wandrin »

Thanks for the links. The articles were very informative. You would think that the western suits would have learned something from their carving up of Africa by drawing arbitrary lines on a map without bothering to learn anything about tribal boundaries and natural divisions. You'd think that someone in DC would have actually read some history books before meddling again.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Wandrin;1461065 wrote: Thanks for the links. The articles were very informative. You would think that the western suits would have learned something from their carving up of Africa by drawing arbitrary lines on a map without bothering to learn anything about tribal boundaries and natural divisions. You'd think that someone in DC would have actually read some history books before meddling again.


Well, you see Wandrin, that's why I find it hilarious that the U.S. (in certain circles), is the cause of every ill in the modern world. It's the White Man!
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Post by Bruv »

In the region of the topic or at least in the same vien, on Facebook today a picture of an elder Native American saying

" Wait, so you are telling me.....that Israel can kill whoever they want...... to take back land they claim was stolen from them..........................................sounds interesting"
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Bruv;1461089 wrote: In the region of the topic or at least in the same vien, on Facebook today a picture of an elder Native American saying

" Wait, so you are telling me.....that Israel can kill whoever they want...... to take back land they claim was stolen from them..........................................sounds interesting"


White man speak with forked tongue.
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Post by High Threshold »

Wandrin;1461065 wrote: ..... You would think that the western suits would have learned something from their carving up of Africa by drawing arbitrary lines on a map without bothering to learn anything about tribal boundaries and natural divisions. You'd think that someone in DC would have actually read some history books before meddling again.


I see nothing “arbitrary” about those lines drawn across the surface of the earth, beneath which is bubbling with oil.

Capitalism has no interest in “tribal boundaries” unless the differences between them can be exaggerated, then exploited by an invasion (or “liberation”) - feigning humanitarian concerns - and manipulating the natural resources of that particular land mass. So, with that design “western suits” have “learned from their carving up of Africa” ------- How to do it deftly. Nothing “arbitrary” at all.
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Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1461095 wrote: I see nothing “arbitrary” about those lines drawn across the surface of the earth, beneath which is bubbling with oil.

Capitalism has no interest in “tribal boundaries” unless the differences between them can be exaggerated, then exploited by an invasion (or “liberation”) - feigning humanitarian concerns - and manipulating the natural resources of that particular land mass. So, with that design “western suits” have “learned from their carving up of Africa” ------- How to do it deftly. Nothing “arbitrary” at all.


Just a minor point.

Those lines may not have entirely "arbitrary" as Lawrence put it, but they were drawn long before the world knew about all the oil that was underneath them.

I suspect that, had the "civilized nations" of the time known about the oil at the end of the war, the lines would have been drawn quite differently.
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LarsMac;1461110 wrote: ..... Those lines may not have entirely "arbitrary" ... but they were drawn long before the world knew about all the oil that was underneath them. .


In the 1930's large oil reserves were discovered in Kuwait by the US and British .

In the1930's Qatar oil concessions were granted to the Qatar Petroleum Company, a subsidiary of the Iraq Petroleum Company, which was owned by Anglo-Dutch, French, and U.S. interests.

In the 1960's Oman oil reserves were discovered. The border with Oman is still not yet even defined.

In the 1930s the first United Arab Emirates oil company teams carried out preliminary surveys. An onshore concession was granted to Petroleum Development (Trucial Coast) in 1939, and an offshore concession to D'Arcy Exploration Ltd in 1952.

In the 1930's oil was discovered in Bahrain. Its boundary has been contested up to at least 1975.

The boundary with Saudi Arabia, as defined in the 1970s, has still not been publicly announced.

The “neutral zone” between Irak and Saudi Arabia was not settled until earliest 1975.

The U.S., Britain and France have all had their fingers in the pie to de-democratise the region and control the oil fields there.
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High Threshold;1461115 wrote: In the 1930's large oil reserves were discovered in Kuwait by the US and British .

In the1930's Qatar oil concessions were granted to the Qatar Petroleum Company, a subsidiary of the Iraq Petroleum Company, which was owned by Anglo-Dutch, French, and U.S. interests.

In the 1960's Oman oil reserves were discovered. The border with Oman is still not yet even defined.

In the 1930s the first United Arab Emirates oil company teams carried out preliminary surveys. An onshore concession was granted to Petroleum Development (Trucial Coast) in 1939, and an offshore concession to D'Arcy Exploration Ltd in 1952.

In the 1930's oil was discovered in Bahrain. Its boundary has been contested up to at least 1975.

The boundary with Saudi Arabia, as defined in the 1970s, has still not been publicly announced.

The “neutral zone” between Irak and Saudi Arabia was not settled until earliest 1975.

The U.S., Britain and France have all had their fingers in the pie to de-democratise the region and control the oil fields there.


All that may be true, but the regional boundaries we were discussing were the ones drawn up after WWI that divided the former Ottoman Empire.
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LarsMac;1461118 wrote: All that may be true, but the regional boundaries we were discussing were the ones drawn up after WWI that divided the former Ottoman Empire.


And are still contested to this day ....... long after oil was discovered. That's the point.
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Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1461120 wrote: And are still contested to this day ....... long after oil was discovered. That's the point.


Pointless, you mean. We were discussing the way the various countries were formed after the Ottoman Empire was dissolved.

Your first post suggested that the lines were drawn with oil in mind, but they were done before oil was discovered.

The perpetrators simply sat down with a map and started drawing lines, to mark out territories in which each of the participants would set up puppet government entities. It is true that after oil was discovered, a few new "Principalities" were formed up, true. But most of the national boundaries are still as they were after the 1920 carving.

The point being that the partitioning completely ignored traditional Tribal regions and old boundaries, setting up a lot of strife in the future. some of the ones who suffered the worst were Kurds, and Armenians who saw their homelands wiped from the map.
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1461110 wrote: Just a minor point.

Those lines may not have entirely "arbitrary" as Lawrence put it, but they were drawn long before the world knew about all the oil that was underneath them.

I suspect that, had the "civilized nations" of the time known about the oil at the end of the war, the lines would have been drawn quite differently.


I'm afraid you are wrong there.

Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Anglo-Persian Oil Company (APOC) was an English company founded in 1908 following the discovery of a large oil field in Masjed Soleiman, Iran. It was the first company to extract petroleum from Iran. In 1935 APOC was renamed the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC) and in 1954 it became the British Petroleum Company (BP), one of the antecedents of the modern BP plc.


ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY – Encyclopaedia Iranica

Oil fired naval ships were the latest innovations in the late 1800 and early 1900's. The royal navy needed the oil what more justufication did an emperial power need? The french germans and amricans were at it as well. The war in the african desert in ww2 was all about who controlled the oil. Your starter for ten in what year did the US and UK invade Iran together?

While the influence of european imperialism was arguably baleful don't forget the region was part of the ottoman empire for far longer, the suppression if nationalism was as muh due to them as anybody else - come to that it's not europeans sending in troops to kurdish aras in turkey. Turkey becoming an islamic state hopefully won't happen.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1461141 wrote: I'm afraid you are wrong there.

Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY – Encyclopaedia Iranica

Oil fired naval ships were the latest innovations in the late 1800 and early 1900's. The royal navy needed the oil what more justufication did an emperial power need? The french germans and amricans were at it as well. The war in the african desert in ww2 was all about who controlled the oil. Your starter for ten in what year did the US and UK invade Iran together?

While the influence of european imperialism was arguably baleful don't forget the region was part of the ottoman empire for far longer, the suppression if nationalism was as muh due to them as anybody else - come to that it's not europeans sending in troops to kurdish areas in turkey. Turkey becoming an islamic state hopefully won't happen.


So I stand corrected, to a point.

Though I feel the need to point out that it was 1927 before any significant oil was found in the former Ottoman Empire.

And you are correct. The ottomans had suppressed the tribal interests for centuries. Nationalism in the region sprouted from the Ottoman defeat in WWI.

If the promise of oil was a driving force in the decision made during the partitioning that took place, that information was a a fairly high level.

But also, at the time, the corporate development was separate from many of the government entities that sprouted out of the partitioning.

No, Europeans have never really given much thought to the Kurds and their quest for national recognition.

And to be clear, I am not defending the US policies in the world, as some would suggest.

The US has always been Britain's Bad ass little brother, jumping up to thump anyone who gave the crown any trouble, ever since we got over the little tiff we had in the early 19th century.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Lars: "The US has always been Britain's Bad ass little brother, jumping up to thump anyone who gave the crown any trouble, ever since we got over the little tiff we had in the early 19th century."

What about Now? Has Britain become our bad ass little brother?
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Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1461159 wrote: Lars: "The US has always been Britain's Bad ass little brother, jumping up to thump anyone who gave the crown any trouble, ever since we got over the little tiff we had in the early 19th century."

What about Now? Has Britain become our bad ass little brother?


Oh, no. Britain has become our feeble older sibling, reminding us of our own looming mortality.
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LarsMac;1461128 wrote: Pointless, you mean. We were discussing the way the various countries were formed after the Ottoman Empire was dissolved.

Your first post suggested that the lines were drawn with oil in mind, but they were done before oil was discovered.

The perpetrators simply sat down with a map and started drawing lines, to mark out territories in which each of the participants would set up puppet government entities. It is true that after oil was discovered, a few new "Principalities" were formed up, true. But most of the national boundaries are still as they were after the 1920 carving.

The point being that the partitioning completely ignored traditional Tribal regions and old boundaries, setting up a lot of strife in the future. some of the ones who suffered the worst were Kurds, and Armenians who saw their homelands wiped from the map.


As has already been pointed out, this is not true.
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Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1461178 wrote: As has already been pointed out, this is not true.


Which part is not true?
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Post by FourPart »

LarsMac;1461167 wrote: Oh, no. Britain has become our feeble older sibling, reminding us of our own looming mortality.
More like the Feeble Aged 'P'.
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LarsMac;1461185 wrote: Which part is not true?


gmc's response not enough for you?
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Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1461208 wrote: gmc's response not enough for you?


GMc's response refined the discussion, but most of what I said still holds.
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larsmac;1461217 wrote: gmc's response refined the discussion, but most of what i said still holds.


OMG. :yh_liar
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Post by LarsMac »

High Threshold;1461218 wrote: OMG. :yh_liar


Please, by all means, show me something to support your own claims, instead of waiting for someone else to do it for you.
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Learning to play chess would help you to focus. Even checkers would be an improvement.

Ps. Moving the king one square to the right, then back to the left again won't change the outcome.
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For how many generations do you blame old colonial masters for your problems? Sunni/shia started killing each other well before europeans became powerful enough to create empires.

True in recent times democratic governments were overthrown and replaced with regimes that would allow oil companies to do their will and big business still stirs the pot but they get away with that in the US and europe (see fracking, mountail top removal, enviromental devastation etc etc) and governments dance to their tune maybe if we could sort them out we might be able to take the moral high ground.

The saudis et al are pretty good at playing the western powers for their own ends, let's see some of your nationals in a terorist group funded by other of your nationals launch one of the most devastating terrorit attacks in recent times and the victim nation take out your biggest rival in the region - who had no conection to the attack. Your banks bankroll elgions of religious terrorist and no one says don't do that. Brilliant stuff reality is always more unbelievable than any movie plot or conspiracy theory. Maybe the west should take master classes from the poor oppressed nations. Now we have russia exerting itself gain. I think we will look back at the fall of the berlin wall and the break up of the soviet union as a wasted opportunity that coud have let to peace and prosperity in europe. Already the arms manufacturers are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospct of chaos. Those who blive in armageddon are jumping up and down with joy

At the end of the day the middle east has to sort it's own problems out

Actually I'm not as pessimistic as that may sound, social media is a new factor in the equation maybe enough people will say no to war to make iffernce.
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gmc;1461255 wrote: For how many generations do you blame old colonial masters for your problems?


I don't know. For as long as those colonial masters (or their political/capitalist cousins) remain?

gmc;1461255 wrote: I think we will look back at the fall of the berlin wall and the break up of the soviet union as a wasted opportunity


The MOST FRUSTRATING are the layers of lies that whole populations swallow wholesale.

You talk of “missed opportunities”. Well, yes OK. But “missed”? I think not. The turmoil we see today is “method”, not missed opportunities or misjudged moves towards righteous endeavour. The complete contrary. What we see now is just the way they want it. They, well not the sufferers and victims – not those “they”.

Black flag operations, covert overthrows of governments, the methodical destruction of democratic longing. So much so in fact that those dreaming of democracy have come to see treachery as democratic principle. “The U.S. brought Democracy to Irak!” So they say. But if “this” is Democracy then who needs it? It's just more war in a different uniform. Worse war, in fact, than what they had previously. The U.S. is encouraging treachery but claiming Democracy. I suppose if I were one of under-educated, down-trodden hoards I would also believe that U.S. war-making is the definition of Democracy and I'd want nothing to do with it. Goal!



gmc;1461255 wrote: At the end of the day the middle east has to sort it's own problems out


You must have forgot the part when you shout, "Westerners out first!"
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Post by Bruv »

HT are you one that subscribes to the idea that "They" have a plan ?

If so who are "They" ? And are "They" all pulling together ?

I am of the opinion that mankind is just selfish and inept, I much prefer that, than the theory there is a group of super rich, ultra evil, highly intelligent, manipulating the worlds resources and people for their own gain.
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Bruv;1461280 wrote: HT are you one that subscribes to the idea that "They" have a plan ?


I am most certainly, yes.



Bruv;1461280 wrote: If so who are "They" ? And are "They" all pulling together ?


Well. You're asking too much of me.

Let me ask you a couple of questions: Do you think Geo. W. Bush acted all on his own? Do you think he made all those invasion decisions himself? Do you think Bush could find his way to the WC without someone taking him by the hand and leading him there? If not then let's say "they-them" instead - rather than he.

So now let me ask you a couple more questions: Do you think they honestly believed Saddam was responsible for the attack on 7/11? Do you think they actually believed there were WMD's in Irak? Do you think it was unintentional that the first UN inspection team was saturated with CIA agents or do you think that they planed it that way? Do you think it was a simple unfortunate coincidence that the second UN inspection team was told by the U.S. to leave just as they were to inspect the final site or do you think they made a conscious decision to get them out before the team could prove there were no WMD'S? Do you think the CIA came together to form the death squads for righteous purposes and it went wrong by mistake or that the whole thing was their purpose?



Bruv;1461280 wrote: I am of the opinion that mankind is just selfish and inept .....


I'd like to belive that too except that it is all going one way - not very likely to be the result of the inept.

Bruv;1461280 wrote: I much prefer that, than the theory there is a group of super rich, ultra evil, highly intelligent, manipulating the worlds resources and people for their own gain.


That WOULD be lovely! But I see that you've already formed your own opinion on " ... who are "They ? And are "They" all pulling together?"
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Post by LarsMac »

Bruv;1461280 wrote: HT are you one that subscribes to the idea that "They" have a plan ?

If so who are "They" ? And are "They" all pulling together ?

I am of the opinion that mankind is just selfish and inept, I much prefer that, than the theory there is a group of super rich, ultra evil, highly intelligent, manipulating the worlds resources and people for their own gain.


High Threshold;1461284 wrote: I am most certainly, yes.





Well. You're asking too much of me.

Let me ask you a couple of questions: Do you think Geo. W. Bush acted all on his own? Do you think he made all those invasion decisions himself? Do you think Bush could find his way to the WC without someone taking him by the hand and leading him there? If not then let's say "they-them" instead - rather than he.

So now let me ask you a couple more questions: Do you think they honestly believed Saddam was responsible for the attack on 7/11? Do you think they actually believed there were WMD's in Irak? Do you think it was unintentional that the first UN inspection team was saturated with CIA agents or do you think that they planed it that way? Do you think it was a simple unfortunate coincidence that the second UN inspection team was told by the U.S. to leave just as they were to inspect the final site or do you think they made a conscious decision to get them out before the team could prove there were no WMD'S? Do you think the CIA came together to form the death squads for righteous purposes and it went wrong by mistake or that the whole thing was their purpose?





I'd like to belive that too except that it is all going one way - not very likely to be the result of the inept.



That WOULD be lovely! But I see that you've already formed your own opinion on " ... who are "They ? And are "They" all pulling together?"


I have been reading up on conspiracy stuff, and about how "They" control the world, since I was a teenager. Among other places, the John Birch Society Book Store was one of my favorite haunts.

After all these years, my main thought to the idea of some "Them" controlling everything?

Simple.

It would be of some comfort to know that at least somebody is driving this bus.

But really, it seems to me that most of the conspiracy stuff is just people making up patterns out of the chaos. Not at all unlike how they tried to use religion to make sense of natural phenomena back in the late Stone age.
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Post by Bruv »

High Threshold;1461284 wrote:

Let me ask you a couple of questions: Do you think Geo. W. Bush acted all on his own? Do you think he made all those invasion decisions himself?
No President or Prime Minister does anything without guidance from his backroom boys Do you think Bush could find his way to the WC without someone taking him by the hand and leading him there? Apparrently the man was a little inept in some situations and under the constant glare of news media, but I don't believe all the character assasination.

So now let me ask you a couple more questions: Do you think they honestly believed Saddam was responsible for the attack on 7/11? Do you think they actually believed there were WMD's in Irak? Do you think it was unintentional that the first UN inspection team was saturated with CIA agents or do you think that they planed it that way? Do you think it was a simple unfortunate coincidence that the second UN inspection team was told by the U.S. to leave just as they were to inspect the final site or do you think they made a conscious decision to get them out before the team could prove there were no WMD'S? Do you think the CIA came together to form the death squads for righteous purposes and it went wrong by mistake or that the whole thing was their purpose?


You describe ineptitude, and major influence from interested parties, call it corruption or collective greed, on the American level.

My "They" are some mysterious international group cooperating for global supremacy.
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Post by FourPart »

In any situation,good or bad, be it Political, Religious or just plain Criminal Greed "They" always have to have a Central Instigator. Things don't happen spontaneously. When a land which is supposedly Poverty Stricken can still afford to keep buying guns & missiles it strikes me that this is not necessarily the real situation. "They", the people, if left to their own devices would be more inclined to concentrate of putting food on the table.

"They" are not the people. "They" are the Self-Imposed Administrators.
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Post by High Threshold »

Bruv;1461293 wrote: No President or Prime Minister does anything without guidance from his backroom boys


“Backroom boys”. I see. May I submit another familiar term for your scrutiny? “Handlers” or “Puppeteers”. In any case, we do agree it is “they” not “him”.

Bruv;1461293 wrote: Apparrently the man was a little inept in some situations and under the constant glare of news media, but I don't believe all the character assasination.


So then you're of the opinion that his deeds in Irak were intentional, including he and his mates laughing all the way to the bank? Now we're getting somewhere.

Bruv;1461293 wrote: You describe ineptitude, and major influence from interested parties, call it corruption or collective greed, on the American level.


I do call it corruption or collective greed but I'm not sure it is restricted to merely an “American” level.

Bruv;1461293 wrote: My "They" are some mysterious international group cooperating for global supremacy.


So in the end you don't discount the possibility of planned evil at work, you're just not sure who the culprits might be. Welcome.
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1461217 wrote: GMc's response refined the discussion, but most of what I said still holds.


Actually I'd agree with you up to a point. It's true the partition ignored tribal boundaries and was basically a land grab for resources in the region oil was a very significant factor that's why we went for irag and iran. Without oil no one would be interested, I think you underestimate just how much it was a factor. That is what empires did it's recent times and we now think such actions wrong. That's the way of the world, the US has grown by expanionist foreign policies and was not averse to finding causus belli when it suited iraq bing the most recent example that too was about oil as is policy towards iran. In democracies people won't go to war just because their leaders tell them to they need to be persuaded. That's a whole opic in itself.

The other factor was the balfour declaration.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917

Anti-semitism, religion moslem or christian are potent forces. Since religion is by definition an irrational belief system getting a reasonable rational solution to the problems of the middle east is an uphill struggle.

I would repeat my question. For how many generations do you blame old colonial masters for your problems? We all at some point look at the past and where we come from and decide what we are going to do nations are the same, being a victim of oppression is a factor it's what you do about it that makes the difference. That sounds rather trite and quite frankly i don't klnow what I would do were I living in any of those countries, fighting somebody but who and what for?. Without religion in the mix the war mght stop but secular states and democracy can't be imposed.

I've always thought the current us support for israel from the christian right was in part a reaction to the guilt they felt over their previous equally passionate anti-semitism and support for hitler.
Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

High Threshold;1461315 wrote: “Backroom boys”. I see. May I submit another familiar term for your scrutiny? “Handlers” or “Puppeteers”. In any case, we do agree it is “they” not “him”.
Not "Handlers" and not "Puppeteers", they are business acquaintances or old friends helping each other out.



So then you're of the opinion that his deeds in Irak were intentional, including he and his mates laughing all the way to the bank? Now we're getting somewhere.

I do call it corruption or collective greed but I'm not sure it is restricted to merely an “American” level.So in the end you don't discount the possibility of planned evil at work, you're just not sure who the culprits might be. Welcome
It is the organised international corrupt and greedy level cooperating from different sides such as Russia in a conspiracy with the rich multinationals towards world domination, I disagree with.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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High Threshold
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Post by High Threshold »

Bruv;1461338 wrote: Not "Handlers" and not "Puppeteers", they are business acquaintances or old friends helping each other out.


Oh, you mean business acquaintances! "Nice White House you have here Georgie Boy. It would be too bad if something bad should happen to it.” :wah:
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

Whether you love him or loathe him, Obama (same goes for Cameron, for that matter) is only the Democratically elected leader of the country, rather than a Dictator & although he may hold a fair amount of influence over final decisions he still has to get approval from the lower houses (Senate / Congress - Commons / Lords, etc - or whatever the system is). Without majority approval they have the power to boycott anything they propose, so you can't just blame the figurehead.
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High Threshold
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Post by High Threshold »

FourPart;1461454 wrote: ...... you can't just blame the figurehead.


You can blame him for taking on a job for which he made great promises but hasn't delivered. It's like me promising your husband he's going to get lucky tonight. How in hell should I know? I have no influence in the matter. You might have a headache for all I know.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

High Threshold;1461464 wrote: You can blame him for taking on a job for which he made great promises but hasn't delivered. It's like me promising your husband he's going to get lucky tonight. How in hell should I know? I have no influence in the matter. You might have a headache for all I know.
I've nothing against Same Sex Marriages, but I can assure you that I have no intention of taking on a husband.
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High Threshold
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Post by High Threshold »

FourPart;1461465 wrote: I've nothing against Same Sex Marriages, but I can assure you that I have no intention of taking on a husband.


Uhhhh shyt! I think I just put my foot in it! Any idea how I can extricate myself from this one with my pride still intact you think? :yh_worry
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

High Threshold;1461466 wrote: Uhhhh shyt! I think I just put my foot in it! Any idea how I can extricate myself from this one with my pride still intact you think? :yh_worry


Nope. No way. Start squirming. :wah:
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Post by gmc »

High Threshold;1461466 wrote: Uhhhh shyt! I think I just put my foot in it! Any idea how I can extricate myself from this one with my pride still intact you think? :yh_worry


Nope but I needed the laugh.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

Don't forget, as a newbie, I did the same (understandably) with Oscar.
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High Threshold
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Post by High Threshold »

anneboleyn;1461479 wrote: start squirming.


ok.

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Post by AnneBoleyn »

High Threshold;1461464 wrote: You can blame him for taking on a job for which he made great promises but hasn't delivered.


Blame the Republican controlled congress. Obama on his own can't, i.e., close Guantanamo, only make it an issue. However, I do have disappointments with him, major ones---even trying to sway congress & kissing their a$$es in the first term was a big waste of everyone's time.

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