Irish Famine or Genocide?

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mikeinie
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

I saw part 1 of a 2 part program on TV last night about the Irish Famine and the Irish immigrants that went to Canada. I found it amazing that growing up myself in Toronto, I had not learned in history the extent of Toronto’s, and in fact Canada’s involvement in the Irish famine other than knowing that many Irish came to Canada during those dark years in Irish history.

In 1845 with hundreds of thousands of starving, sick and dying Irish fleeing from Ireland, the US Immigration office doubled its fee to enter the USA, so thousands of Irish, who had no money made their way to Canada.

In Toronto, in 1845, 40,000 Irish immigrants arrived to the city, in ratio terms; this would be the equivalent of 2 million people arriving in Toronto this year. The people were sick and dying and hospitals were built to take them in and care for them as much as possible.

This documentary however raises and issue with me with our history.

Webster’s dictionary defines a Famine as: 1: an extreme scarcity of food.

However, this was not the case in Ireland during these years, the only crop failure was that of the potato. Other crops were in abundance along with cattle and other livestock. The Irish, who were under rule by the British Empire and were living as tenants for the land owners and farming the lands, were only permitted to grow potatoes for themselves; all other food was exported to Britain.

Nothing was done by the British to assist the Irish, in fact there are documented cases of the Government intervening and stopping aid from reaching the Irish.

For example:

‘Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling.

The Sultan sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived at Drogheda harbour.’

Irish workers, with the failed crops could not pay rent were not pardoned or given leniency, they were kicked off their lands with their housed burned down behind them.

Stealing a loaf of bread was punishable by hanging.

This brings the question, was the Irish ‘Famine’ an actual famine, or was it 19th century genocide?

In 3 years, more than 25% of the population of Ireland had either perished or immigrated, and those who left were loaded like cattle into the hull of ships, locked in, and suffered a two month journey where up to 25% of passengers would die on rout.

I think that because Ireland continued to be under British rule, the catastrophe that took place was simply played down and written into history as the ‘Great Irish Famine’, I don’t agree with history, in my opinion, it was the ‘Great Irish Genocide’.

History needs to be rewritten.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

mikeinie;1069212 wrote: Nothing was done by the British to assist the Irish, in fact there are documented cases of the Government intervening and stopping aid from reaching the Irish. No, Mike, you can't make so brash a generalization as that. I attach from "Correspondence from July, 1846, to January, 1847, relating to the measures adopted for the relief of the distress in Ireland. Commissariat series", page 24, as an immediate indication that you can't possibly be correct. That's 12,157 tons of relief distributed to the destitute during 1845 alone.

I'm happy to focus in more closely on your comments if you want to discuss it.

Attached files 1847-024370-p24.pdf (57.4 KB) 
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

The loans distributed toward the Relief of Distress in Ireland, for the purchase of food or materials gratuitously distributed, by the British Government over the four-year period 1845-48 came to £9,536,675 (see page 2 of the attachment) and the price index increase between 1848 and 2008 is 650 giving a rough modern equivalent of ten billion US dollars. I'd call that a significant attempt at a social measure. I'd concede that it was entirely swamped by the scale of the disaster but it's not insignificant and I think it shows at least a desire to mitigate the effects of the failure of the potato crop.

Attached files 1847-025345-p2.pdf (132.5 KB) 
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by gmc »

mikeinie;1069212 wrote: I saw part 1 of a 2 part program on TV last night about the Irish Famine and the Irish immigrants that went to Canada. I found it amazing that growing up myself in Toronto, I had not learned in history the extent of Toronto’s, and in fact Canada’s involvement in the Irish famine other than knowing that many Irish came to Canada during those dark years in Irish history.

In 1845 with hundreds of thousands of starving, sick and dying Irish fleeing from Ireland, the US Immigration office doubled its fee to enter the USA, so thousands of Irish, who had no money made their way to Canada.

In Toronto, in 1845, 40,000 Irish immigrants arrived to the city, in ratio terms; this would be the equivalent of 2 million people arriving in Toronto this year. The people were sick and dying and hospitals were built to take them in and care for them as much as possible.

This documentary however raises and issue with me with our history.

Webster’s dictionary defines a Famine as: 1: an extreme scarcity of food.

However, this was not the case in Ireland during these years, the only crop failure was that of the potato. Other crops were in abundance along with cattle and other livestock. The Irish, who were under rule by the British Empire and were living as tenants for the land owners and farming the lands, were only permitted to grow potatoes for themselves; all other food was exported to Britain.

Nothing was done by the British to assist the Irish, in fact there are documented cases of the Government intervening and stopping aid from reaching the Irish.

For example:

‘Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling.

The Sultan sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived at Drogheda harbour.’

Irish workers, with the failed crops could not pay rent were not pardoned or given leniency, they were kicked off their lands with their housed burned down behind them.

Stealing a loaf of bread was punishable by hanging.

This brings the question, was the Irish ‘Famine’ an actual famine, or was it 19th century genocide?

In 3 years, more than 25% of the population of Ireland had either perished or immigrated, and those who left were loaded like cattle into the hull of ships, locked in, and suffered a two month journey where up to 25% of passengers would die on rout.

I think that because Ireland continued to be under British rule, the catastrophe that took place was simply played down and written into history as the ‘Great Irish Famine’, I don’t agree with history, in my opinion, it was the ‘Great Irish Genocide’.

History needs to be rewritten.


It doesn't need to be rewritten just tell things as they were rather than blur the realities and pretend there was some kind of glorious pastoral past. . Same sort of things happened in the highlands of scotland (why do you think there are so many in canada, whole communities were herded on to ships and forced to emigrate) in England you had all the enclosure acts when big landowners basically used the courts to steal more land for themselves and similar things were happening in europe as well. When marx coined the phrase all property was theft it was the forcing of people off land they once owned and farmed that he was referring to-he was writing in the 1840's.

I assumed from the flag you were actually Irish and would be aware of what I thought would be your own history. It's not exactly a big secret but rather you are just finding out about it.

Great Irish Genocide’.


What would you call what happened to the north American Indians?
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

spot;1069244 wrote: No, Mike, you can't make so brash a generalization as that. I attach from "Correspondence from July, 1846, to January, 1847, relating to the measures adopted for the relief of the distress in Ireland. Commissariat series", page 24, as an immediate indication that you can't possibly be correct. That's 12,157 tons of relief distributed to the destitute during 1845 alone.

I'm happy to focus in more closely on your comments if you want to discuss it.


What this document does not tell you is that the Corn and Corn meal, took 1 year to send and was not processed, it was completely inedible.

Perhaps genocide is harsh, as it would suggest it was deliberate, but there was more action taken to export the Irish out of their country than there was to save any lives. So if not genocide, it must have been at least complete incompetence mixed with just not caring, that allowed a population of over 6 million people be reduced to 3 million in less than 3 years.

In the 3 years of the famine the British land owners continued to export all other foods, and continued to provide little adequate assistance to save lives of the people not only within their own empire, but across the water.

They were well able to provide the ships to send people away, but they could not feed them food harvested in their own land.

It is a black mark on the history of the empire of Great Britain.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

gmc;1069301 wrote:

I assumed from the flag you were actually Irish and would be aware of what I thought would be your own history. It's not exactly a big secret but rather you are just finding out about it.

What would you call what happened to the north American Indians?


yes, what I meant was not related to the famine, but more on the stories in relation to Toronto.

North American Indians? I would agree.

The main difference though being that the Americans were openly concurring the Indians and taking their land, Ireland was already part of Great Britain and should have been protected when they were not.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

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mikeinie;1069310 wrote: What this document does not tell you is that the Corn and Corn meal, took 1 year to send and was not processed, it was completely inedible.

Perhaps genocide is harsh, as it would suggest it was deliberate, but there was more action taken to export the Irish out of their country than there was to save any lives. So if not genocide, it must have been at least complete incompetence mixed with just not caring, that allowed a population of over 6 million people be reduced to 3 million in less than 3 years.

In the 3 years of the famine the British land owners continued to export all other foods, and continued to provide little adequate assistance to save lives of the people not only within their own empire, but across the water.

They were well able to provide the ships to send people away, but they could not feed them food harvested in their own land.

It is a black mark on the history of the empire of Great Britain.
Emigrating them out of the country was saving lives, it was a positive act. The population dropped 20% from the combination of death and emigration between 1841 and 1851, not "over 6 million people reduced to 3 million in less than 3 years".

Decline in population 1841–51 Leinster 15,3%, Munster 22.5%, Ulster 15.7%, Connaught 28.8%, Ireland as a whole 20%. [from Joe Lee, The Modernisation of Irish Society (Gill History of Ireland Series No.10) p.2, by way of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Iris ... Death_toll]

The Corn and Corn meal in those returns didn't take 1 year to send, those are the distribution figures from the local depots in each of the Irish regions for 1845. They're the figures for what went out through the doors in the cities where they were distributed.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by gmc »

mikeinie;1069319 wrote: yes, what I meant was not related to the famine, but more on the stories in relation to Toronto.

North American Indians? I would agree.

The main difference though being that the Americans were openly concurring the Indians and taking their land, Ireland was already part of Great Britain and should have been protected when they were not.


Ireland was conquered as well. They didn't exactly jump up and down insisting on being part of the british empire though like the scots they had a great deal to do with it's growth. Having taken the indians land in canada are there any plans afoot to hand it back?

You should maybe take a look at how people on the mainland were treated around the same time period. Or indeed how the immigrants behaved when they got to canada and places like australia towards the natives in those countries. It's a very mixed bag. In tasmania the British were actually completely successful in committing genocide, one of the few instances where there was a deliberate policy of genocide carried through to fruition. In australia the aborigines proved too stubborn and survived. In north america disease almost succeeded and so decimated the population that white settlers found little real opposition to their taking over.

Britain was not exactly a liberal democracy at the time but there were also many who spoke out about what was happening. There are massive movements for social reform that can trace their roots back to this period and even earlier.

If you find injustice and bigotry in the past shocking there is plenty to get shocked about. It wasn't so much deliberate attempt at genocide in Ireland as complete and utter indifference to the fate of millions of people starving to deathwho were seen as a nuisance more than anything else.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

gmc;1069353 wrote: Ireland was conquered as well. They didn't exactly jump up and down insisting on being part of the british empire though like the scots they had a great deal to do with it's growth. Having taken the indians land in canada are there any plans afoot to hand it back?

You should maybe take a look at how people on the mainland were treated around the same time period. Or indeed how the immigrants behaved when they got to canada and places like australia towards the natives in those countries. It's a very mixed bag. In tasmania the British were actually completely successful in committing genocide, one of the few instances where there was a deliberate policy of genocide carried through to fruition. In australia the aborigines proved too stubborn and survived. In north america disease almost succeeded and so decimated the population that white settlers found little real opposition to their taking over.

Britain was not exactly a liberal democracy at the time but there were also many who spoke out about what was happening. There are massive movements for social reform that can trace their roots back to this period and even earlier.

If you find injustice and bigotry in the past shocking there is plenty to get shocked about. It wasn't so much deliberate attempt at genocide in Ireland as complete and utter indifference to the fate of millions of people starving to deathwho were seen as a nuisance more than anything else.


Well written.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

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mikeinie;1069212 wrote: I saw part 1 of a 2 part program on TV last night about the Irish Famine and the Irish immigrants that went to Canada. I found it amazing that growing up myself in Toronto, I had not learned in history the extent of Toronto’s, and in fact Canada’s involvement in the Irish famine other than knowing that many Irish came to Canada during those dark years in Irish history.

In 1845 with hundreds of thousands of starving, sick and dying Irish fleeing from Ireland, the US Immigration office doubled its fee to enter the USA, so thousands of Irish, who had no money made their way to Canada.

In Toronto, in 1845, 40,000 Irish immigrants arrived to the city, in ratio terms; this would be the equivalent of 2 million people arriving in Toronto this year. The people were sick and dying and hospitals were built to take them in and care for them as much as possible.

This documentary however raises and issue with me with our history.

Webster’s dictionary defines a Famine as: 1: an extreme scarcity of food.

However, this was not the case in Ireland during these years, the only crop failure was that of the potato. Other crops were in abundance along with cattle and other livestock. The Irish, who were under rule by the British Empire and were living as tenants for the land owners and farming the lands, were only permitted to grow potatoes for themselves; all other food was exported to Britain.

Nothing was done by the British to assist the Irish, in fact there are documented cases of the Government intervening and stopping aid from reaching the Irish.

For example:

‘Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling.

The Sultan sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived at Drogheda harbour.’

Irish workers, with the failed crops could not pay rent were not pardoned or given leniency, they were kicked off their lands with their housed burned down behind them.

Stealing a loaf of bread was punishable by hanging.

This brings the question, was the Irish ‘Famine’ an actual famine, or was it 19th century genocide?

In 3 years, more than 25% of the population of Ireland had either perished or immigrated, and those who left were loaded like cattle into the hull of ships, locked in, and suffered a two month journey where up to 25% of passengers would die on rout.

I think that because Ireland continued to be under British rule, the catastrophe that took place was simply played down and written into history as the ‘Great Irish Famine’, I don’t agree with history, in my opinion, it was the ‘Great Irish Genocide’.

History needs to be rewritten.


From what I have read over the years, I think it is accurate to say that there was gross neglect, indifference toward the plight of the Irish and that they were held in very low esteem by the British. Land allocation and policies made things worse. I would go so far as to say at least in some quarters the possibility of greatly diminishing the native Irish was welcomed.

As for the American Indians, they were not even considered human and from the very first landings of British were lied to murdered, had their land stolen, relocated and betrayed which of course continued after the Revolution.

Even to this day there are government bureaus for Indian affairs. Imagine if there was the Bureau of African American Affairs and those folks were on reservations?
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1069426 wrote: I would go so far as to say at least in some quarters the possibility of greatly diminishing the native Irish was welcomed.And how would you set about justifying that in terms of evidence?

If Mike's still around he might like to explain in what sense Corn meal could be described as unprocessed, too.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

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spot;1069429 wrote: And how would you set about justifying that in terms of evidence?

If Mike's still around he might like to explain in what sense Corn meal could be described as unprocessed, too.


'F.S.L. Lyons characterised the initial response of the British government to the early less severe phase of the famine as "prompt and relatively successful."[92] Confronted by widespread crop failure in the autumn of 1845, Prime Minister Sir Robert Peel purchased £100,000 worth of Indian corn and corn meal secretly from America. Baring Bros & Co had to act as agents for the government. The government hoped that they would not “stifle private enterprise” or that their actions act as a disincentive to local relief efforts. Due to weather conditions, the first shipment did not arrive in Ireland until the beginning of February 1846.[93] This corn was then re-sold for a penny a pound.[94] The corn when it arrived had not been ground and was inedible, and this task involved a long and complicated process if it was to be done correctly and it was unlikely to be carried out locally. In addition, before the Indian meal could be consumed, it had to be ‘very much’ cooked again, or eating it could result in severe bowel complaints.[95] Because of maize's yellow colour, and the fact that it had to be ground twice, it became known in Ireland as 'Peel's brimstone'. In 1846 Peel then moved to repeal the Corn Laws, tariffs on grain which kept the price of bread artificially high. The famine situation worsened during 1846 and the repeal of the Corn Laws in that year did little to help the starving Irish; the measure split the Conservative Party, leading to the fall of Peel's ministry. '

Great Famine (Ireland) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia:
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

Peel's Brimstone I'd not heard of. I'm not defending the catastrophe, I'm especially not defending the continued exports of the cash crops which supported the absentee landlords.

There's a good series of lessons on Irish-American History - What Famine? - free Suite101 course

I can well imagine that yes, the import time for Corn meal from the USA was four months or so - Autumn to February, as the article says. Those 1846 imports are the year after the ones I noted though and there was far more of the stuff handed out than the mere 12,000 tons of 1845. What was handed out in 1845 is explicitly described as ground corn meal, not raw corn, whatever the 1846 handouts consisted of. It was still only a drop in a very large ocean of need. All of it goes to show that the British did do something, however much we criticize it as inadequate.

The cash crops were owned by the absentee landlords, nobody in 1840s Britain was going to confiscate them and the landlords hadn't the slightest interest in the well-being of their peasants. A cleared village was worth more than a tenanted one.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

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mikeinie;1069212 wrote: Stealing a loaf of bread was punishable by hanging.On a point of information, that had been repealed fifteen years before by "1831-32 (347) 2 Will. IV.--Sess. 1831-2. A bill for abolishing the punishment of death in certain cases, and substituting a lesser punishment in lieu thereof ", after which there was no hanging for the theft of goods valued at less than five pounds. Those found guilty were transported to Australia for seven years instead. Thereby, you'll note, avoiding the famine.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

So I agree now that it was not genocide, as by definition it would have been a deliberate attempt, and the crops failures were not planned.

However, nor was it a famine, so it is still recorded incorrectly in history.

It was a mass starvation, which was unnecessary as it was only one crop, and completely preventable as there was plenty of other crops and food available, it would have also been completely solvable at the time if the political will and social structure would have allowed it.
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You seem to be implying that the government ought to have confiscated the cash crops from the absentee landlords and distributed them free to the starving population. You're discussing the 1840s, not today, and even today I don't think it would happen. It certainly doesn't happen in Africa now, for example - there are plenty of cash crops exported from countries with food-aid donations coming in. It's a requirement of World Bank financial loans that the cash crops go for export, for goodness sake!
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

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mikeinie;1070194 wrote: So I agree now that it was not genocide, as by definition it would have been a deliberate attempt, and the crops failures were not planned.

However, nor was it a famine, so it is still recorded incorrectly in history.

It was a mass starvation, which was unnecessary as it was only one crop, and completely preventable as there was plenty of other crops and food available, it would have also been completely solvable at the time if the political will and social structure would have allowed it.


The potato has become the staple food crop throughput europe for the pretty basic reason that an acre of potatoes fed more people than an acre of any other food crop. Population growth encouraged potato culture, and potato culture enabled the population to grow. The disadvantage of the potato was that it was expensive to transport and could not be stored for long periods. Planted annually on poor soils in rainy climates, the potato proved vulnerable to blight, so that excessive dependence on potatoes was an invitation to massive crop failure. It effectively put off the day when people had to leave the land and go elsewhere because it was no longer fertile. It was more devastating in ireland and scotland because the land had been so deforested and overfarmed that they couldn't actually grow many other crops. It's still the same in large tracts of ireland and scotland all that heather covered moorland moorland is not all natural- most of it is man made.

European Potato Famine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The effect of the crisis on Ireland is incomparable to all other places for the devastation it wrought, causing 1 million dead and another million refugees and spurring a century-long population decline. Excluding Ireland, the death toll from the crisis is estimated to be in the region of 100,000 people. Of this, Belgium and Prussia account for most of the deaths, with 40,000–50,000 estimated to have died in Belgium, with Flanders particularly affected, and a slightly smaller number, about 42,000 estimated to have perished in Prussia. The remainder of deaths occurred mainly in France, where 10,000 people are estimated to have died as a result of famine-like conditions.[1]

Aside from death from starvation and famine diseases, suffering came in other forms. While the demographic impact of famines are immediately visible in mortality, longer-term declines of fertility and natality can also dramatically affect population. In Ireland births fell by a third, resulting in about 0.5 million "lost lives". Declines elsewhere were lower but still remarkable: Flanders lost 20—30%, the Netherlands about 10—20%, and Prussia about 12%.[2]




That it was preventable is a moot point as is whether it was foreseeable given the knowledge of the day. That anything realistically could have been done given the transport technology of the day is also moot. Not many roads in those days, so how do you move vast quantities of food even if you wanted to? That the establishment of the day didn't really give a **** is also true. And north americans wonder why europeans tend to be fairly left wing in their politics. It's not coincidence that socialist ideas started to gain in popularity in this period and you have revolutions all across europe.

That something like it could happen again is imo one of the best arguments against GM crops that rely on the use of limited varieties of specially adapted crops. If it goes wrong and we don't have the necessary biodiversity we are all stuffed.

There is no secret conspiracy to keep people from knowing about history or need to rewrite it. You've just found out something about your history own you didn't know. You were ignorant of it rather than being deliberately kept in the dark.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

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There is no secret conspiracy to keep people from knowing about history or need to rewrite it. You've just found out something about your history own you didn't know. You were ignorant of it rather than being deliberately kept in the dark.


I was neither kept in the dark or ignorant of the issue, I am well aware of the history, what I was challenging is the accuracy of the history in the definition of it being a ‘Famine’ which by definition it was not.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

mikeinie;1070305 wrote: I was neither kept in the dark or ignorant of the issue, I am well aware of the history, what I was challenging is the accuracy of the history in the definition of it being a ‘Famine’ which by definition it was not.


It may have been many other things too but it was undoubtedly a famine as well.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by scholle-kid »

spot;1069294 wrote: The loans distributed toward the Relief of Distress in Ireland, for the purchase of food or materials gratuitously distributed, by the British Government over the four-year period 1845-48 came to £9,536,675 (see page 2 of the attachment) and the price index increase between 1848 and 2008 is 650 giving a rough modern equivalent of ten billion US dollars. I'd call that a significant attempt at a social measure. I'd concede that it was entirely swamped by the scale of the disaster but it's not insignificant and I think it shows at least a desire to mitigate the effects of the failure of the potato crop.


Of course this statement i am going to make will be my great grandparents dairies and stories passed down from generation to generation, against official records right there in black and white wrote stored and presented by 'the powers that be'



Yes moneis were sent to the Engish land lords and the monies were said to be for food to feed the poor 'Irish ' But what won't be found on any offical records wrote and stored and presented is that the Engisl landlords took those monies and spent them as if they had been gifts of the crown for doing such a bang up job with the managing of the Irish land holding and oh yeah ridding the land of them nasty ole native Irishmen them dirty buggers that had the gall to think they had any rights or reason for being a pestulence to Great britian and her blue blooded arses
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

That may well have been the belief of your forebears sat in their leaky hovel berating the injustices of Irish society, and passed down as poison to keep each generation's hatred alive, but I see no cause whatever to believe it to be true in the slightest.

If you have the diaries it would, of course, be fascinating to know what they wrote at the time.

None of the relief was handled by the landlords, it was invariably administered to the last farthing by agents of the Crown as the accounts make perfectly clear.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by scholle-kid »

Well now that would be something wouldn't it, when my forebears were sitting in their leaky hovels starving and passing down thier 'poison' didn't even have any access to schools to be able to read and write, but, when the ones that were able to make it to America had children that went to schools and learned the 3 R's did write the stories told by the parents and grandparents that survied the loving care and loving treatment of the English angels that were so good at caring about and for them as humans. But as I said my information is just my word against the official records of ya da ya da ya da ,,,,,



never mind spot it is a fore gone conclusion that you hold the truths of your opinons to be wrote in stone and there for is gospel and manna for the rest of us to swallow.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

I sense that what I'm about to say will land on stony ground and fail to prosper but I'll say it anyhow.

Firstly, there were areas of Europe with higher death rates from the total failure of their potato harvest than Ireland under the British. I take that to mean the British government cared more effectively for the welfare of those subjects who were reduced to destitution than some other European governments did.

Secondly I note that the indigenous Irish in Ireland under the British had roughly doubled in number during the fifty years before the great famine. I take that also to mean the conditions in which they lived had been sufficient for their families to survive and expand. A million of these had already left for America before the great famine started, it was already a traditional route to improvement for the young and the potato harvest had failed in many years before the blight arrived and reduced it to nothing for year after year.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by scholle-kid »

The government/leaders of Great Briton has thought out it's bloody history has never had given much care or thought about the health and welfare of it's citizens or any of the citizens of any of the countries it 'concurred' and raped of any natural resources , the lower class citizns where just as non important to the crown and blue bloods as the Scots or Irish the Aussie ,Africans, India, etc.. The Americans maybe a little lower on the totem pole because we came from the hovels and prisons and gutters of Great Briton and never showed the proper humility and gratitude for the chance of the many supporting the few ..



See spot when I started a thread about hmmm how many Americans may have voted color instead of ability , you were all over me 'like ugly on ape' about the nasty horrible history of America, and when this thread here was started again you jumped like your butt was on fire in defense of all that is Great Briton while seeming to try and make everyone belive that Its the rest of the world with dirty laundry and only Great Briton has lily white hands,, well I won't even say in American words what that makes you look like,,, there ain't not one country or race of people that hasn't got 'skeletons in the closet' and some has a longer and history than others when it comes to that closet,,,

When America had been 10 years past the ugly 60's Great Briton was still in the 70's treating the Irish like a sub human species and I can remember reading the news week and US news articles about this so don't try and white wash it,,,

your rael darn quick to jump up and poke others in the eye while acting like your all that and a bag of chips.... IMO but I have always heard that is the way most Europians are, sorta stuffed shirts and snotty while ya'll think Americans are loud and opinonated,, maybe it's a good thing there is that pond in between us huh ??
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

scholle-kid;1070644 wrote: The government/leaders of Great Briton has thought out it's bloody history has never had given much care or thought about the health and welfare of it's citizensIf that were true, how do you account for the two pieces of Government report I brought into the thread in my first posts here? They're direct evidence that the government of the day and the leaders of Great Britain were giving care and thought to the health and welfare of its citizens. That's why I put it into the thread. How else could you interpret the facts I offered?

scholle-kid wrote: When America had been 10 years past the ugly 60's Great Briton was still in the 70's treating the Irish like a sub human species and I can remember reading the news week and US news articles about this so don't try and white wash it.What are you discussing here? Housing policy? Policing? Setting traps for the IRA and deliberately killing them rather than arresting them for trial? I can't really answer unless I know what you have in mind here.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

Kathy Ellen;1070686 wrote: All I know is that my Dad and his brother Jim were starving to death in Donegal and had to find work in Wales and Glasgow during the 1930's. All they had to eat were a few spuds and a bit of milk. Luckily Dad became a shipbuilder in Glasgow, and Jim was a garda in Holyhead, Wales.Firstly, that was true of the unemployed working classes throughout Great Britain. Secondly, Ireland was an independent country during the 1930s and many Irish came from the Republic into Great Britain to find work in places like Wales and Glasgow.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by gmc »

scholle-kid;1070608 wrote: Well now that would be something wouldn't it, when my forebears were sitting in their leaky hovels starving and passing down thier 'poison' didn't even have any access to schools to be able to read and write, but, when the ones that were able to make it to America had children that went to schools and learned the 3 R's did write the stories told by the parents and grandparents that survied the loving care and loving treatment of the English angels that were so good at caring about and for them as humans. But as I said my information is just my word against the official records of ya da ya da ya da ,,,,,



never mind spot it is a fore gone conclusion that you hold the truths of your opinons to be wrote in stone and there for is gospel and manna for the rest of us to swallow.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl


You seem to forget spot and I have the same forebears the difference being ours didn't emigrate being either too poor, didn't receive an "assisted" passage or were able to find work in the industrial cities growing up at the time. many irish settled in liverpool and glasgow because the fare to those ports were affordable and there was plenty of work to be had either in the factories and shipyards or in building the roads and railways and canals of the industrial revolution. Most of the west coast of scotland have got an irish forebear in there somewhere-leaving aside the fact the eponymous scots were invaders from ireland in he first place

Don't know about irish literacy rates but the scots had the highest literacy rate in europe and had had for many decades a lot of the emigrants were also skilled workers, engineers and the like, seeking a better life for themselves.

Like a lot of americans you seem to think we don't know about our own history british empire and all the things done in it's name from the past. In actual fact we do know it very well indeed just as we know our own social history and how the society we now live in has been shaped by it. The irish famine, highland clearances, industrial revolution etc etc are actually part of the school curriculum

When America had been 10 years past the ugly 60's Great Briton was still in the 70's treating the Irish like a sub human species and I can remember reading the news week and US news articles about this so don't try and white wash it,,,




Also like a lot of americans you seem to be unaware that ireland has been an independent nation since 1921-I'm sure galbally would be surprised to find out he is being oppressed- with only the six counties remaining under british rule rather than have a bloodbath between catholic and protestants had they tried to unite them. The Irish civil war claimed more lives than the war of independence that proceeded it. Hard to believe people would kill each other over religion-bet you thought only muslims did that kind of thing.

Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You should do some reading-plenty of source material around if you care to look. Who knows maybe you might find out things are not quite as black and white as you might think.

posted by scholle-kid

IMO but I have always heard that is the way most Europians are, sorta stuffed shirts and snotty while ya'll think Americans are loud and opinonated,, maybe it's a good thing there is that pond in between us huh ??


Nothing wrong with being loud and opinionated, being ignorant and opinionated just comes across as being childish.

but I have always heard that is the way most Europians are, sorta stuffed shirts and snotty


many americans seem to think that. I've always thought it was due to a massive american inferiority complex :sneaky:
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by scholle-kid »

gmc;1070857 wrote: You seem to forget spot and I have the same forebears the difference being ours didn't emigrate being either too poor, didn't receive an "assisted" passage or were able to find work in the industrial cities growing up at the time. many irish settled in liverpool and glasgow because the fare to those ports were affordable and there was plenty of work to be had either in the factories and shipyards or in building the roads and railways and canals of the industrial revolution. Most of the west coast of scotland have got an irish forebear in there somewhere-leaving aside the fact the eponymous scots were invaders from ireland in he first place



Don't know about irish literacy rates but the scots had the highest literacy rate in europe and had had for many decades a lot of the emigrants were also skilled workers, engineers and the like, seeking a better life for themselves.



Like a lot of americans you seem to think we don't know about our own history british empire and all the things done in it's name from the past. In actual fact we do know it very well indeed just as we know our own social history and how the society we now live in has been shaped by it. The irish famine, highland clearances, industrial revolution etc etc are actually part of the school curriculum







Also like a lot of americans you seem to be unaware that ireland has been an independent nation since 1921-I'm sure galbally would be surprised to find out he is being oppressed- with only the six counties remaining under british rule rather than have a bloodbath between catholic and protestants had they tried to unite them. The Irish civil war claimed more lives than the war of independence that proceeded it. Hard to believe people would kill each other over religion-bet you thought only muslims did that kind of thing.



Irish Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You should do some reading-plenty of source material around if you care to look. Who knows maybe you might find out things are not quite as black and white as you might think.



posted by scholle-kid





Nothing wrong with being loud and opinionated, being ignorant and opinionated just comes across as being childish.







many americans seem to think that. I've always thought it was due to a massive american inferiority complex :sneaky:




Thank you for the link I will be doing some reading. most of that post by me towards spot was not so much based on any fact or proof as it was in the same tone as a conversation spot and I had about Americans and our history with slavery btw, some of your post could be quoted as far as one country seeming to think another country doesn't know about the history. Just like the history of Great Briton was part of the school curriculum

for you so is our history in America for our kids. And you are right when you figured I haven't done a lot of studying on your history about 99% of my info came from my 'fore bearers''s and it never was a question of studying about it because the older folks in my childhood got their info from the survivors of that history. And again , Thanks for the link I will be reading it.

ignorant is not something to be embearassed about , because it is not a permanent problem and can be 'cured' .



many Americans seem to think that. I've always thought it was due to a massive American inferiority complex
I find this very amusing because I've always figured it was due to jealousy on ya'll's part,,
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by gmc »

scholle-kid;1070885 wrote: Thank you for the link I will be doing some reading. most of that post by me towards spot was not so much based on any fact or proof as it was in the same tone as a conversation spot and I had about Americans and our history with slavery btw, some of your post could be quoted as far as one country seeming to think another country doesn't know about the history. Just like the history of Great Briton was part of the school curriculum

for you so is our history in America for our kids. And you are right when you figured I haven't done a lot of studying on your history about 99% of my info came from my 'fore bearers''s and it never was a question of studying about it because the older folks in my childhood got their info from the survivors of that history. And again , Thanks for the link I will be reading it.

ignorant is not something to be embearassed about , because it is not a permanent problem and can be 'cured' .



I find this very amusing because I've always figured it was due to jealousy on ya'll's part,,


Just for the record we also learn about the part played by britain in the transatlantic slave trade. A lot of americans seem to assume that any comment on america is intended as simply being anti american. It's just that we are just used to very forthright debate and passionate disagreement about things and have no problem acknowledging the bad as well as the good about our past history. It's always a slight shock when americans can't be dispassionate in the same way and take things so personally.

You might find this interesting as well.

Highland Clearances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The hatred of the highlanders was every bit as virulent as that directed against the Irish and for much the same reasons-religion- they were mainly catholic. Some of the worst atrocities were committed by Scots on Scots with great enthusiasm. The reason for the diaspora was much the same as well-overpopulation and land so overfarmed that it could no longer sustain agriculture. When Marx coined the phrase all poperty was theft what he was actually referring to was the forcing of people off the land such as went on in ireland and scotland and throughout europe during the period he was living in.

To imagine it was all part of some deliberate genocidal plot is a bit simplistic tom put it mildly

I find this very amusing because I've always figured it was due to jealousy on ya'll's part,,


It's a common misconception that americans think everybody wants to be just like them in their's the best of all possible countries:D
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

The intension of this post was not to start a pro or anti British battle, it was not indented to start comparing levels of degree of atrocities, it was a long time ago and opinions will change nothing.

The question was in regard to if it is historically accurate calling it a famine or not, I concede that it was no genocide, but I state again that calling it a famine is not accurate. The failure of one crop, in a land rich of other crops, cannot be considered a famine.

That is my point, not meaning to start conflict with anyone about something that happened a long time ago.

Yes, the same continues in other countries to various degrees in these living times.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by scholle-kid »

mikeinie;1070937 wrote: The intension of this post was not to start a pro or anti British battle, it was not indented to start comparing levels of degree of atrocities, it was a long time ago and opinions will change nothing.



The question was in regard to if it is historically accurate calling it a famine or not, I concede that it was no genocide, but I state again that calling it a famine is not accurate. The failure of one crop, in a land rich of other crops, cannot be considered a famine.



That is my point, not meaning to start conflict with anyone about something that happened a long time ago.



Yes, the same continues in other countries to various degrees in these living times.


My apologies for 'hyjackin' your thread . It's just the first time I have been able to find a person from 'across the pond' that will actually do a back and forth inter change of opinions and beliefs or thoughts without getting all harsh or whatever.

I for one have so far learnt more about this and plan too read some more on it thanks to this thread. When as a kid listing to my grandparents and great aunts/uncles, the subject never came up that potatoes were the only crop failure , when I got old enough to think/question on the subject i just

assumed' the whole country had been though something compared to what is called "the great depression and draught" of the early part of the 20th century.

I will get out of your thread and let it go back on topic.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by mikeinie »

scholle-kid;1070978 wrote: My apologies for 'hyjackin' your thread . It's just the first time I have been able to find a person from 'across the pond' that will actually do a back and forth inter change of opinions and beliefs or thoughts without getting all harsh or whatever.

I for one have so far learnt more about this and plan too read some more on it thanks to this thread. When as a kid listing to my grandparents and great aunts/uncles, the subject never came up that potatoes were the only crop failure , when I got old enough to think/question on the subject i just

assumed' the whole country had been though something compared to what is called "the great depression and draught" of the early part of the 20th century.

I will get out of your thread and let it go back on topic.


scholle-kid, you are very welcome to join in this topic, I was only stating my own opinion, you did not 'hyjack' the threat, your repsonse and participation is very welcome.

Thanks for you comments and views.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by BTS »

spot;1069244 wrote: No, Mike, you can't make so brash a generalization as that. I attach from "Correspondence from July, 1846, to January, 1847, relating to the measures adopted for the relief of the distress in Ireland. Commissariat series", page 24, as an immediate indication that you can't possibly be correct. That's 12,157 tons of relief distributed to the destitute during 1845 alone.



I'm happy to focus in more closely on your comments if you want to discuss it.


Ooohhh Yes spot the BLOODY English treated the Irishman with dignity and grace throughout all time. Let's rewrite some more history to suit our pompous view.EH?
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

BTS;1072460 wrote: Ooohhh Yes spot the BLOODY English treated the Irishman with dignity and grace throughout all time. Let's rewrite some more history to suit our pompous view.EH?


I made up neither the quotes nor the figures, as you can see. I even included a facsimile of the original page I drew the information from.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by BTS »

spot;1072469 wrote: I made up neither the quotes nor the figures, as you can see. I even included a facsimile of the original page I drew the information from.


Ok so you posted it......

So do you believe it?

When I say believe it I mean how dapper the Brits were to the Irish and this made ALL that right?



BRITISH RELIEF EFFORTS DURING THE FAMINE:British relief efforts were hampered partly by lack of experience and the sort of administrative machinery required to handled such a massive and unprecedented crisis, and partly by obstacles of ideology. Under Sir Robert Peel, the British government initially followed a dual policy of selling subsidized corn and supporting soup kitchens which offered rationed food to the indigent. However, Peel's laudable initiatives were swamped by the massive demand for food by the starving population (over 3,000,000 people fed per day in 1847), and were perceived in Britain to go against the grain of prevailing classical liberal ideology. Following Peel's fall from power in 1846, the Russell government decided against any attempts at direct intervention in the market place, and determined instead to adhere to the Malthusian principles of the New Poor Law introduced recently in Britain itself (1834), which provided support to the able-bodied only in return for "relief work" in the poorhouse, private employment or public works projects. Though a record number of men were employed on such schemes during the Famine (c. 750,000), this none the less proved absolutely inadequate for the scale of the disaster.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

BTS;1072590 wrote: Ok so you posted it......

So do you believe it?

When I say believe it I mean how dapper the Brits were to the Irish and this made ALL that right?I believe that what I posted was an accurate summary of what actually happened on the ground at that time in those places. I don't think there's any lie in the material I produced. I hope you're not asking me to take responsibility for the accuracy of anything I've not offered to the thread.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by gmc »

BTS;1072460 wrote: Ooohhh Yes spot the BLOODY English treated the Irishman with dignity and grace throughout all time. Let's rewrite some more history to suit our pompous view.EH?


You need to make up your mind who you are annoyed at. The English or the British. The two are not synonymous.

However, Peel's laudable initiatives were swamped by the massive demand for food by the starving population (over 3,000,000 people fed per day in 1847), and were perceived in Britain to go against the grain of prevailing classical liberal ideology.


Not bad going all considered. How would america in this day and age cope with feeding 3,000,000 a day? Even harder in a country with no roads and no helicopters to drop food in.

I would also have thought you would also sympathise with the reluctance to interfere with the workings of the market place. Correct me if I am wrong but I'm sure in other threads you have advocated that government has no business helping the poor and unemployed who should get off their backsides and help themselves. Despite Karl marx living in london at the time Britain was not a socialist country.

The poor law act in 1834, incidentally, was one of the first attempts to institute a nationwide approach to helping the poor replacing the rather piecemeal parish by parish dependent ion charity approach that preceded it. Ultimately it led on to the welfare state as we know it today-except you don't of course cos you don't have one.

To imagine it was all part of some deliberate genocidal plot is a bit simplistic to wipe out the irish is simplistic to put it mildly

posted by mikeinie

The question was in regard to if it is historically accurate calling it a famine or not, I concede that it was no genocide, but I state again that calling it a famine is not accurate. The failure of one crop, in a land rich of other crops, cannot be considered a famine.


The potato was actually the staple food crop in ireland-it wasn''t as if they could just re-plant the fields with something else as an alternative.

By your logic the famine in africa is not a real one because other food crops are available.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by spot »

gmc;1072854 wrote: I would also have thought you would also sympathise with the reluctance to interfere with the workings of the market place. Correct me if I am wrong but I'm sure in other threads you have advocated that government has no business helping the poor and unemployed who should get off their backsides and help themselves.
I've been wondering whether any of these Capitalist market-economist no-socialism-at-any-price posters from the Home Of The Brave would ever cotton on to that aspect of the Irish Famine. None of them seem to have yet. The last thing they'd put up with is government intervention by way of hand-outs to those who couldn't support themselves.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
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Irish Famine or Genocide?

Post by gmc »

spot;1072862 wrote: I've been wondering whether any of these Capitalist market-economist no-socialism-at-any-price posters from the Home Of The Brave would ever cotton on to that aspect of the Irish Famine. None of them seem to have yet. The last thing they'd put up with is government intervention by way of hand-outs to those who couldn't support themselves.


Who also contributed to their own misfortune by depending too much on the one crop, after all people have to take responsibility for their own welfare and not depend on government to bail them out.

posted by mikienie

The intension of this post was not to start a pro or anti British battle, it was not indented to start comparing levels of degree of atrocities, it was a long time ago and opinions will change nothing.




Blame the english, the scot, irish and welsh do it all the time. :sneaky:
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