History/geneaology question
History/geneaology question
In what era were family, or surnames deemed necessary, and who determined what the family name would be?
History/geneaology question
I only know from what I have learned over the years...sometimes the surname identifed one person from another. Like two guys named Tom..one a tailor, one a carpenter. In speaking of them one may refer to Tom the Tailor or Tom the Carpenter. Then shortended to Tom Tailor or Tom Carpenter.
Now, if Tom were to have a son named Dave...he may be reffered to Dave Tom's son (Thompson).
I also learned of freed slaves, who never had surnames choosing the names of thier former owners...this explaining why we have so many African Americans with those "presedential" surnames..Jefferson, Washington etc. Also, Freeman as an African American surname. Think about that one.
Do not know how accurate all of what I have said is, but that is how I learned about them
Now, if Tom were to have a son named Dave...he may be reffered to Dave Tom's son (Thompson).
I also learned of freed slaves, who never had surnames choosing the names of thier former owners...this explaining why we have so many African Americans with those "presedential" surnames..Jefferson, Washington etc. Also, Freeman as an African American surname. Think about that one.
Do not know how accurate all of what I have said is, but that is how I learned about them
History/geneaology question
weinbeck;550252 wrote: In what era were family, or surnames deemed necessary, and who determined what the family name would be?
Quite early on people would use "surnames" to distinguish one Peter from another - Peter the Smith, Peter son of harry, Peter from Derbyshire etc.
Thus you might have Peter Harrison fathering Harry Peterson and the surname would change from generation to generation.
Then the "great" families needed to keep track so they took fixed family names.
This was slowly copied down the social ladder as people gave themselves airs.
So the when depends on who the question is about.
Quite early on people would use "surnames" to distinguish one Peter from another - Peter the Smith, Peter son of harry, Peter from Derbyshire etc.
Thus you might have Peter Harrison fathering Harry Peterson and the surname would change from generation to generation.
Then the "great" families needed to keep track so they took fixed family names.
This was slowly copied down the social ladder as people gave themselves airs.
So the when depends on who the question is about.
History/geneaology question
In Gaelic culture we didn't have surnames for a long time, eventually they came into use to denote your position within the clan heirachy, hence the Mc and O' which denotes "son of" so my moms name O'Brien, (or Ui Bhrian), which is the clan of Brian (Brian being Brian Boru of kicking viking ass in 1014 in the Battle of Clontarf fame). So who your clan was (its not really about your direct dad like the Scandinavians, simply the clans most powerful leader). There are other Irish names that do not have the appelation of the O or the Mc (in Scotland Mc is "Mac" with the "A").
Then the names such as D'arcy, Fitzwilliam, Butler, etc, there are Norman names coming from French language and the Norman conqerors. Then names such as Welsh, Millars, Henrys all these kinda names are from well established old English families that settled here with the Normans, became powerful and had many descendants. There are also Scottish names in the north (settlers) and south, (generally the decendents of Scottish mercenries, (know at the time as Gallowglasses, and were fierce warriors, many of whom remained in Ireland and kept their clans going over here, hence MacDonalds, MacArthurs all that lot.
Then the names such as D'arcy, Fitzwilliam, Butler, etc, there are Norman names coming from French language and the Norman conqerors. Then names such as Welsh, Millars, Henrys all these kinda names are from well established old English families that settled here with the Normans, became powerful and had many descendants. There are also Scottish names in the north (settlers) and south, (generally the decendents of Scottish mercenries, (know at the time as Gallowglasses, and were fierce warriors, many of whom remained in Ireland and kept their clans going over here, hence MacDonalds, MacArthurs all that lot.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
History/geneaology question
Galbally;550427 wrote: There are other Irish names that do not have the appelation of the O or the Mc (in Scotland Mc is "Mac" with the "A").
Yeah I have always wondered about that...
I have ancestors who bore the name McClure, but when I looked it up on Wiki, it said it was of Scottish decent from the MacCleod clan of Harris...But I'm wondering why they didn't have the "a" in the name if they were truly from Scotland(Obviously they had to have been from one of the two seeing as how I can't fathom why they would bear the name McClure and not have ancestors whom migrated over here from Scotland or Ireland).
Do you know of anyone in Ireland with the name McClure?
Yeah I have always wondered about that...
I have ancestors who bore the name McClure, but when I looked it up on Wiki, it said it was of Scottish decent from the MacCleod clan of Harris...But I'm wondering why they didn't have the "a" in the name if they were truly from Scotland(Obviously they had to have been from one of the two seeing as how I can't fathom why they would bear the name McClure and not have ancestors whom migrated over here from Scotland or Ireland).
Do you know of anyone in Ireland with the name McClure?
History/geneaology question
K.Snyder;550439 wrote: Yeah I have always wondered about that...
I have ancestors who bore the name McClure, but when I looked it up on Wiki, it said it was of Scottish decent from the MacCleod clan of Harris...But I'm wondering why they didn't have the "a" in the name if they were truly from Scotland(Obviously they had to have been from one of the two seeing as how I can't fathom why they would bear the name McClure and not have ancestors whom migrated over here from Scotland or Ireland).
Do you know of anyone in Ireland with the name McClure?
Not personally, but I am sure there are, there are many examples of Scots who came to Ireland and changed the Mac to Mc, and made their names more "Irish" as opposed to Scottish, and visa versa. And there are many names that don't have this Mc, Mac, or O' prename either.
I have ancestors who bore the name McClure, but when I looked it up on Wiki, it said it was of Scottish decent from the MacCleod clan of Harris...But I'm wondering why they didn't have the "a" in the name if they were truly from Scotland(Obviously they had to have been from one of the two seeing as how I can't fathom why they would bear the name McClure and not have ancestors whom migrated over here from Scotland or Ireland).
Do you know of anyone in Ireland with the name McClure?
Not personally, but I am sure there are, there are many examples of Scots who came to Ireland and changed the Mac to Mc, and made their names more "Irish" as opposed to Scottish, and visa versa. And there are many names that don't have this Mc, Mac, or O' prename either.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
History/geneaology question
Galbally;550445 wrote: And there are many names that don't have this Mc, Mac, or O' prename either.Hooligan!
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
History/geneaology question
spot;550547 wrote: Hooligan!
Thats a noun, not a name. Heheheheh.
Thats a noun, not a name. Heheheheh.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
History/geneaology question
weinbeck;550252 wrote: In what era were family, or surnames deemed necessary, and who determined what the family name would be?
I'll take it back a bit. We seem to have reached the Normans so far. I'll offer the Etruscan model which was extended by the Romans during ascendancy. To begin with, children inherited a family name (nomen gentile) and were given a forename to be identifiable (nomen personale) if they were male (but not otherwise: women conventionally used their family name and a feminised form of their father's personal name, which didn't distinguish sisters). As society became more convoluted (certainly by around 300 BCE) adding names which reflected the action or looks of significant people (cognomina) became fashionable and these were passed with the family name thereafter, creating branches of the larger families.
What determined the family name, then, was initially the tribe, subsequently the inherited tribe with any cognomen.
By the time of Empire, patrician Romans were nominating heirs (where they had no natural heir) in their wills, so men (and women) could inherited a complete fresh name that way as well.
The American model of slaves taking on the names of their masters also came from Roman usage.
I'll take it back a bit. We seem to have reached the Normans so far. I'll offer the Etruscan model which was extended by the Romans during ascendancy. To begin with, children inherited a family name (nomen gentile) and were given a forename to be identifiable (nomen personale) if they were male (but not otherwise: women conventionally used their family name and a feminised form of their father's personal name, which didn't distinguish sisters). As society became more convoluted (certainly by around 300 BCE) adding names which reflected the action or looks of significant people (cognomina) became fashionable and these were passed with the family name thereafter, creating branches of the larger families.
What determined the family name, then, was initially the tribe, subsequently the inherited tribe with any cognomen.
By the time of Empire, patrician Romans were nominating heirs (where they had no natural heir) in their wills, so men (and women) could inherited a complete fresh name that way as well.
The American model of slaves taking on the names of their masters also came from Roman usage.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.