Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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binbag
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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LarsMac;1333683 wrote: Just a thought:

Hawkings was right.

God did not create the universe.

God IS the Universe.
Woo-Hoo Woo-Hoo-Hoo.

I love it LarsMac :)
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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Earth to Have Closest Encounter With Jupiter until 2022

[...]

The view through a telescope is excellent. Because Jupiter is so close, the planet's disk can be seen in rare detail--and there is a lot to see. For instance, the Great Red Spot, a cyclone twice as wide as Earth, is bumping up against another storm called "Red Spot Jr." The apparition of two planet-sized tempests grinding against one another must be seen to be believed. ...NASA - Earth to Have Closest Encounter With Jupiter until 2022Anyone observing this with a telescope?
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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LarsMac;1333683 wrote: Just a thought:

Hawkings was right.

God did not create the universe.

God IS the Universe.


So you are in agreement then that god didn't create the universe because I wouldn't think that God could create God and if God=universe then God can't create Universe. So if I believe there is a universe I am believing in god but I don't believe a universe can tell a person to build an arch, or burn a bush, or impregnate a human woman, and I don't think Jesus was the universe's son even if he was "god's son", but it is an interesting point that I think goes well for science, let me know when we can convert others to believe the universe is god so we must start worshiping the universe.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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littleCJelkton;1334391 wrote: So you are in agreement then that god didn't create the universe because I wouldn't think that God could create God and if God=universe then God can't create Universe. So if I believe there is a universe I am believing in god but I don't believe a universe can tell a person to build an arch, or burn a bush, or impregnate a human woman, and I don't think Jesus was the universe's son even if he was "god's son", but it is an interesting point that I think goes well for science, let me know when we can convert others to believe the universe is god so we must start worshiping the universe.


Thought that up all by yourself, did you?

Minor point on your logic, though.

(A is B) is not the same as (A=B)
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by littleCJelkton »

LarsMac;1334394 wrote: Thought that up all by yourself, did you?

Minor point on your logic, though.

(A is B) is not the same as (A=B)


So if we are not to conclude that "A is B" points out equality between A and B what does the statement "A is B" mean?

What does it say about the relationship, similarities, and/or differences between A and B?
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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littleCJelkton;1334391 wrote: So you are in agreement then that god didn't create the universe because I wouldn't think that God could create God and if God=universe then God can't create Universe. So if I believe there is a universe I am believing in god but I don't believe a universe can tell a person to build an arch, or burn a bush, or impregnate a human woman, and I don't think Jesus was the universe's son even if he was "god's son", but it is an interesting point that I think goes well for science, let me know when we can convert others to believe the universe is god so we must start worshiping the universe.Now one mustn't be sarcastic when replying to a post...

Isn't sarcasm attributed to one of the many failings of us Christians. :wah:

Anyway littleCJelkton, what LarsMac is saying is, God Always Was, Always Is, and Always Will Be".
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by littleCJelkton »

I am not sure if sarcasm has anything more to do Christianity, than it does with Judaism, Buddhism, or any other religion.

Now I am now unsure of others on forum garden, idea of "is" as compared to equality but I would assume if God is the universe, then one may infer that the Universe Always Was, The Universe Is, and Always Will Be. I believe that if this is to be inferred, in the first statement "The Universe always Was" would give one the Idea that the universe does not need explanation for how it came to existence. This to me Means the Universe just appeared from nowhere 1 universe came from nowhere 0, . Now my idea of equality is 1=1 0=0. Now my idea of is when used to describe things that are like when used from turning the statement "those are these" to "that is this" define thing that are definite. If I say that is a cat, that is a girl, that is a man. I am saying those because I am certain of it, but if I found out what I thought was a cat, girl, man turned out not to be one than I would change my statement of what "that Is". So if I compare to things with "IS" I believe I am using it to define certain equalities between those two objects "John is a Man" "An Elm Is A tree". Now sometimes it is to describe an opinion " Joe Montana is the best NFL Quarterback", "Michael Jordan is the best NBA player ever". These statements may have points arguing for and against them, but the person stating them is for them and says them because they believe that they are certain there is equality between Joe Montana and the best NFL Quarterback, or Michael Jordan and the best NBA player ever. So when one states God is the Universe then I would assume one believes that there is equality between God and The Universe. If one believes there is equality between God and the Universe than I would think that one believes God = The Universe, and as I stated before if God Always was then the Universe Always Was; Therefore, if the Universe always was then the universe came from nowhere, no one, nothing. Now if one wants to believe God always was, God is the Universe, The universe came from nothing, and 1=0 that is fine as long as that one treats others with the core values that I believe all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, even Islam have the most Important value which is recurring in each religion is the idea of "treating others the way you wish to be treated".

Now I am certain I am a person "1" person there are other people but I know there is at least 1. I am Also certain I am on earth which I recognize as a planet "1" planet there are other planets but I know there is at least 1. This continues earth is in one solar system, in one galaxy, in one Universe. This means I am certain there is one universe there may be others but I am certain there is at least 1, and 1 is 1 and/or 1=1. Now I personally equivalate the terms, nobody= 0 people, nothing = 0 objects, nowhere = 0 places. So if one were to say God is the Universe, then I personally would assume that God = Universe. Since I know there is at least 1 universe, and I would assume God = Universe.Then I would assume there is at least 1 god, but if If I were to say God always was than I would assume that since God = Universe then the Universe always was. Since the Universe always was then the Universe came from nothing thus I am saying 1 universe came from Nothing 0 1=0. Since I know 1 does not equal 0 and 1 is not 0 then I know the statement The Universe always was is not true, that means that "The universe is God, God is the Universe" is not true either.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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Again the concept of the Universe being "self supporting"(Which if true wouldn't make sense to say "self supporting" even because would even then insinuate a "beginning" which proves humanity's inability to grasp concepts more complex than themselves :wah:) doesn't rule out the thought of a divine existence that suggests a purpose. What it does is lead us down the path to accepting that we don't need to apply that existence to situations that cannot be explained at an attempt to be satisfied with a pseudo sense of intellectual prowess. What this book, if it proves to be true, would serve to do is create a revolutionized idea of how we as people can remain entrenched into reality by the very precedent that would then be set. Reality is mathematics, the Language of the Universe.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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"I am not sure if sarcasm has anything more to do Christianity"

Hah, tell that to the Christian bashers , especially Stephen Hawkins. LOL



God didn't "come into existence" littleCJelkton.

He didn't "appear from nowhere"

Neither is He going to disappear now or the future into wherever or whatever, the finest academic or scientific brain can bring into existence for the world's delectation.

He always "Was"

He always "Is"

He always will "Be"(in the future)

No beginning

No end(ing)

“Always was”, “Always is”, “Always will be”, is a concept beyond human comprehension now, or in future millennia.

I was going to end with...

World without end.

Amen.

But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before. LOL



Oooo, K Snyder has a sense of humour. :lips:

Happy Birthday btw. :)
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by littleCJelkton »

binbag;1334741 wrote: "I am not sure if sarcasm has anything more to do Christianity"

Hah, tell that to the Christian bashers , especially Stephen Hawkins. LOL



God didn't "come into existence" littleCJelkton.

He didn't "appear from nowhere"

Neither is He going to disappear now or the future into wherever or whatever, the finest academic or scientific brain can bring into existence for the world's delectation.

He always "Was"

He always "Is"

He always will "Be"(in the future)

No beginning

No end(ing)

“Always was”, “Always is”, “Always will be”, is a concept beyond human comprehension now, or in future millennia.

I was going to end with...

World without end.

Amen.

But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before. LOL



Oooo, K Snyder has a sense of humour. :lips:

Happy Birthday btw. :)


Now I am in no way bashing Christians, and those who "Bash" Chirstians in my opinion have extremesist views that are based on ignorance and stubborness to not accept new ideas or logic, just as those who have extreme religious views I find typically are ignorant of other religions and the ideas, and morals they promote and bash other religions in the same way people bash "Christians", Jews", and now to a great degree "Muslims". I agree that the concept "Always Was, Always is , Always will be" are concepts beyond human comprehension, but as I believe more to the point of what Hawking is saying that as science discovers ways of explaining things that were originally beyond our comprehension in to concepts we can comprehend, there thus becomes less of a need to hold on to the concepts we don't comprehend.

I personally find the context of your post in which you point out the word Amen would cause so much damage to people a form of bashing non-christians for not holding the same values as christians. Even though I personally am not christian and don't say Amen I respect your beliefs even if they are different, and I would expect those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ to do the same; unfortunately, I find that they often don't follow many of the principal values that are in the foundation of Christianity. Now if you were using Amen in the same context as I believe you use to end a prayer to the god you believe in I would thank you, for being respectable enough to think us here on FG in the same way, but to me it is obvious from the quote "But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before. LOL" which follows shows the word Amen is not used as intended.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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littleCJelkton;1334541 wrote: I am not sure if sarcasm has anything more to do Christianity, than it does with Judaism, Buddhism, or any other religion.

Now I am now unsure of others on forum garden, idea of "is" as compared to equality but I would assume if God is the universe, then one may infer that the Universe Always Was, The Universe Is, and Always Will Be. I believe that if this is to be inferred, in the first statement "The Universe always Was" would give one the Idea that the universe does not need explanation for how it came to existence. This to me Means the Universe just appeared from nowhere 1 universe came from nowhere 0, . Now my idea of equality is 1=1 0=0. Now my idea of is when used to describe things that are like when used from turning the statement "those are these" to "that is this" define thing that are definite. If I say that is a cat, that is a girl, that is a man. I am saying those because I am certain of it, but if I found out what I thought was a cat, girl, man turned out not to be one than I would change my statement of what "that Is". So if I compare to things with "IS" I believe I am using it to define certain equalities between those two objects "John is a Man" "An Elm Is A tree". Now sometimes it is to describe an opinion " Joe Montana is the best NFL Quarterback", "Michael Jordan is the best NBA player ever". These statements may have points arguing for and against them, but the person stating them is for them and says them because they believe that they are certain there is equality between Joe Montana and the best NFL Quarterback, or Michael Jordan and the best NBA player ever. So when one states God is the Universe then I would assume one believes that there is equality between God and The Universe. If one believes there is equality between God and the Universe than I would think that one believes God = The Universe, and as I stated before if God Always was then the Universe Always Was; Therefore, if the Universe always was then the universe came from nowhere, no one, nothing. Now if one wants to believe God always was, God is the Universe, The universe came from nothing, and 1=0 that is fine as long as that one treats others with the core values that I believe all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, even Islam have the most Important value which is recurring in each religion is the idea of "treating others the way you wish to be treated".

Now I am certain I am a person "1" person there are other people but I know there is at least 1. I am Also certain I am on earth which I recognize as a planet "1" planet there are other planets but I know there is at least 1. This continues earth is in one solar system, in one galaxy, in one Universe. This means I am certain there is one universe there may be others but I am certain there is at least 1, and 1 is 1 and/or 1=1. Now I personally equivalate the terms, nobody= 0 people, nothing = 0 objects, nowhere = 0 places. So if one were to say God is the Universe, then I personally would assume that God = Universe. Since I know there is at least 1 universe, and I would assume God = Universe.Then I would assume there is at least 1 god, but if If I were to say God always was than I would assume that since God = Universe then the Universe always was. Since the Universe always was then the Universe came from nothing thus I am saying 1 universe came from Nothing 0 1=0. Since I know 1 does not equal 0 and 1 is not 0 then I know the statement The Universe always was is not true, that means that "The universe is God, God is the Universe" is not true either.


By using the '=' you actually limit the thought.

When I say 'God is Love' does that mean 'God = love?'

That would be an interesting thought.

That means there is no God outside of Love, and no Love outside of God. That means the two are the absolute same.

I must think that not to be true.

So likewise, 'God is the Universe'

There is God beyond the Universe. Is the Universe beyond God?
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by littleCJelkton »

LarsMac;1334824 wrote: By using the '=' you actually limit the thought.

When I say 'God is Love' does that mean 'God = love?'

That would be an interesting thought.

That means there is no God outside of Love, and no Love outside of God. That means the two are the absolute same.

I must think that not to be true.

So likewise, 'God is the Universe'

There is God beyond the Universe. Is the Universe beyond God?


The idea of Love I believe is an Idea that comes from the older tradintional thinking that a couple were bound together by the Gods, then later God. This is still apperant today carried in the mariage cermonies among the different religions, Being that the Idea of love I believe is the idea that their is something better than yourself keeping you and another person together for the sake of making the society as a whole relies on you believing in that outside force that creates love. The statement that god is love can be deduced to god=love.

Now as stated earlier in this forum the idea " always was" "always is" "always will be" are concepts humans can't comprehend, To understand if God is beyond the universe or that the Universe is beyon God, one must first answer "Where does God end?", and "Where does the Universe end?" being that niether are concepts we can comprehend then in my opinion the idea that God is beyond the Universe or vice versa become mute.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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littleCJelkton;1334822 wrote: Now I am in no way bashing Christians, and those who "Bash" Chirstians in my opinion have extremesist views that are based on ignorance and stubborness to not accept new ideas or logic, just as those who have extreme religious views I find typically are ignorant of other religions and the ideas, and morals they promote and bash other religions in the same way people bash "Christians", Jews", and now to a great degree "Muslims". I agree that the concept "Always Was, Always is , Always will be" are concepts beyond human comprehension, but as I believe more to the point of what Hawking is saying that as science discovers ways of explaining things that were originally beyond our comprehension in to concepts we can comprehend, there thus becomes less of a need to hold on to the concepts we don't comprehend.

I personally find the context of your post in which you point out the word Amen would cause so much damage to people a form of bashing non-christians for not holding the same values as christians. Even though I personally am not christian and don't say Amen I respect your beliefs even if they are different, and I would expect those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ to do the same; unfortunately, I find that they often don't follow many of the principal values that are in the foundation of Christianity. Now if you were using Amen in the same context as I believe you use to end a prayer to the god you believe in I would thank you, for being respectable enough to think us here on FG in the same way, but to me it is obvious from the quote "But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before. LOL" which follows shows the word Amen is not used as intended.
“there thus becomes less of a need to hold on to the concepts we don't comprehend”.

In a way littleCJelkton , I agree your comment is true, in the sense that it’s best not to become obsessed by the things we cannot comprehend. However I feel it’s acceptable to think of them occasionally as it reminds us (Christians) how superior God is to us mere mortals.

When I use or say the word Amen, I use it as an affirmation, or confirmation if you like, that I’m in agreement of what’s been related to me.

“But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before”.

That was me slipping in a bit of humour. (again)

So you see I “was” using the word Amen as intended. In other words I was confirming or agreeing with all I mentioned in my reply.

However, I followed that by slipping in a bit of humour.



I find that they often don't follow many of the principal values that are in the foundation of Christianity.

Your statement gives me an opportunity once again to say “Amen” (to that) because I’m confirming I completely agree with you.

Any Christian who does not practice the foundation of Christianity is, in my opinion, not a true practicing Christian. Having said that however (and I’m not excusing any Christian who gives off or shows negative tendencies) we all must bear in mind that no one, absolutely (perhaps me more so) no one, is perfect.

What I do, if I find a Christian is off target, is let the first negative one go but, if it’s repeated, then the Christian in question has problems that, for their own sake, must be addressed.

If they don’t address the issue, it is at that point, a word in their ear is perfectly acceptable if, approached with compassion and in a correct manner. i.e. not in a holier than thou attitude.

If they don’t listen, well, they’re going to find things out the hard way.

To remind a Christian of the principles of Christianity, God isn’t averse to occasionally holding back when they’re about to poke their finger in the fire.

And I can tell you from personal experience that is painfully so true.

Incidentally, your reply is admirable.

I salute you.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

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littleCJelkton;1334826 wrote: The idea of Love I believe is an Idea that comes from the older tradintional thinking that a couple were bound together by the Gods, then later God. This is still apperant today carried in the mariage cermonies among the different religions, Being that the Idea of love I believe is the idea that their is something better than yourself keeping you and another person together for the sake of making the society as a whole relies on you believing in that outside force that creates love. The statement that god is love can be deduced to god=love.

Now as stated earlier in this forum the idea " always was" "always is" "always will be" are concepts humans can't comprehend, To understand if God is beyond the universe or that the Universe is beyon God, one must first answer "Where does God end?", and "Where does the Universe end?" being that niether are concepts we can comprehend then in my opinion the idea that God is beyond the Universe or vice versa become mute.


Well said.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by littleCJelkton »

binbag;1334863 wrote: “there thus becomes less of a need to hold on to the concepts we don't comprehend”.

In a way littleCJelkton , I agree your comment is true, in the sense that it’s best not to become obsessed by the things we cannot comprehend. However I feel it’s acceptable to think of them occasionally as it reminds us (Christians) how superior God is to us mere mortals.

When I use or say the word Amen, I use it as an affirmation, or confirmation if you like, that I’m in agreement of what’s been related to me.

“But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before”.

That was me slipping in a bit of humour. (again)

So you see I “was” using the word Amen as intended. In other words I was confirming or agreeing with all I mentioned in my reply.

However, I followed that by slipping in a bit of humour.



I find that they often don't follow many of the principal values that are in the foundation of Christianity.

Your statement gives me an opportunity once again to say “Amen” (to that) because I’m confirming I completely agree with you.

Any Christian who does not practice the foundation of Christianity is, in my opinion, not a true practicing Christian. Having said that however (and I’m not excusing any Christian who gives off or shows negative tendencies) we all must bear in mind that no one, absolutely (perhaps me more so) no one, is perfect.

What I do, if I find a Christian is off target, is let the first negative one go but, if it’s repeated, then the Christian in question has problems that, for their own sake, must be addressed.

If they don’t address the issue, it is at that point, a word in their ear is perfectly acceptable if, approached with compassion and in a correct manner. i.e. not in a holier than thou attitude.

If they don’t listen, well, they’re going to find things out the hard way.

To remind a Christian of the principles of Christianity, God isn’t averse to occasionally holding back when they’re about to poke their finger in the fire.

And I can tell you from personal experience that is painfully so true.

Incidentally, your reply is admirable.

I salute you.


Thank you, I now notice it says your from the UK I happened to be in another forum in which a FG member from the UK slipped in humor where I saw it inappropriate, I am sorry for my Americanized ignorance towards that aspect of your culture to throw in humor in places that to and american would see as rude.
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by littleCJelkton »

LarsMac;1334872 wrote: Well said.


Thank you ,

I think I have a good understanding of what god in most Religion means to the people of those faiths I just choose not to believe the same way they do, so I don't believe in God nor Love. I do believe that if I treat others fair, kind, and with respect I will for the most part get the same treatment from others in return. I believe that in helping others I help myself. I believe that one should strive to understand things that one can try to comprehend instead of quarreling about Things that no one can.

Now though the size of The Universe and/or God are is an Idea that we can't currently comprehend. Unlike God there are other aspects of the universe we can comprehend or at least begin to try to. for example we can begin to comprehend what makes up the universe by what is in it I am in it, I would presume that since you actively have to respond on FG somwhere on a computer on this planet which is in this universe you, your computer, and this planet are in the universe. Thus what helps make you, me, computers, planets (carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, etc...,) help make up the universe. These are things about the universe we can comprehend, but if I were to ask what makes up god? What is in god? Those are things that have yet to be explaiined. Now if what is in god, or what makes up god is uncomprehendable or just not fact based has yet to be proven. I say this because I don't adhere to tone i personally get from most religions Not just Christianity, but also Judaism and Islam; which is this tone that "God is", "God Was", "God always will be", and "god is everything" because I said so, and because the guy in this book said so, now stop asking questions, and just go along with what I say and this book says and believe that "God Is, Was, Always will be, and is in evertying".
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Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

Post by K.Snyder »

binbag;1334741 wrote: "I am not sure if sarcasm has anything more to do Christianity"

Hah, tell that to the Christian bashers , especially Stephen Hawkins. LOL



God didn't "come into existence" littleCJelkton.

He didn't "appear from nowhere"

Neither is He going to disappear now or the future into wherever or whatever, the finest academic or scientific brain can bring into existence for the world's delectation.

He always "Was"

He always "Is"

He always will "Be"(in the future)

No beginning

No end(ing)

“Always was”, “Always is”, “Always will be”, is a concept beyond human comprehension now, or in future millennia.

I was going to end with...

World without end.

Amen.

But I fear that would cause a global outbreak of heart attacks and Hypertension as has never been witnessed before. LOL



Oooo, K Snyder has a sense of humour. :lips:

Happy Birthday btw. :)Thank you very much.

On that I think it would be inappropriate to call Stephen Hawking a "christian basher". This only proves the resentment from people that in any way highlights a particular weakness. When that weakness is exploited then the only reaction is resentment and I find it to be incredibly immature. Mr. Hawking is a person that considers truths, or axioms, and then presents predictions of the future based off of that work. If that work wasn't so innately respectable then no one would cause a fuss. What it does is show just how fragile religions are. It's become more and more evident over the past 100 years which is seen as a long time for those inside the never changing stubbornness of the religious but quite a short period of time for those quite confident in the fact they could distinguish true scientific observations more than 500 years ago, those individuals deserve equal the amount of respect as Mr. Hawking if not more.

He's done nothing but state his scientific findings, to consider him opposed to religion just because of this is par for the course for religion and their never ending quest to control the minds of uninformed individuals at the hopes they might sell another book.

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