Here's a comment from today's New Scientist:One of Pratchett's preoccupations is with the natural world and what is happening to it. "I think we're doomed," he pronounces, "because politicians think in five years at a time. Every time I remember that we live on a planet, it scares the **** out of me, because they're such dangerous things to live on: two miles down there you burn, two miles up there you freeze. It's so delicate."
Terry Pratchett: Fighting to keep the fantasy alive - opinion - 04 November 2009 - New Scientist
There's been the occasional comment on FG to the effect that diverting effort into space colonisation is a waste of resources and that Earth should be the chief focus. Save the planet, keep the ecosystem running, prevent the destruction of the environment from pollution and runaway catastrophe.
I'm not convinced at all. Eggs in one basket, that's all Earth is. Given the choice of spreading to more planets and eventually populating the galaxy at the cost of leaving the Earth entirely dead, or putting the planet into pristine shape and staying here, I'd go for the all-out departure every time. One day, sooner or later but during the lifetime of this species, Earth is going to see the last of us die. If we're not out there by then, we're ended.
Here's a review in this month's New York Review Of Books, to indicate where we're headed:this is precisely what Lovelock attempts to do—using his own computer modeling—in The Vanishing Face of Gaia. A new climatic jump, he concludes, will occur within the next few years or decades, and will involve an abrupt increase in average global surface temperature of 9 degrees Celsius—from 15 to 24 degrees Celsius (59 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit). Such a shift, he contends, will trigger the collapse of our global civilization and the near extinction of humanity.
The Vanishing Face of Gaia: A Final Warning: by James Lovelock
I don't mind what it takes or how much of our worldwide resources we have to plunder to get a permanent presence off-planet, we have to make it happen. If all we leave behind is a life-free cinder then that's a cost well worth paying.
Colonising Space
Colonising Space
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
I agree. I've never seen Space, or particularly in recent years, lunar exploration a waste of money or resources. I see it as a natural progression of human desire to explore. Man has always had this inherent behavior. Its in our genes to travel, explore and colonise.
The prospect of a "life-free cinder" makes it all the more urgent a task.
Sign me up. In anticipation of more rain and winds, I'm looking for a temperate planet with a Mediterranean feel and Caribbean beaches. I know, the reality would be much more stark and desolate
The prospect of a "life-free cinder" makes it all the more urgent a task.
Sign me up. In anticipation of more rain and winds, I'm looking for a temperate planet with a Mediterranean feel and Caribbean beaches. I know, the reality would be much more stark and desolate
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Colonising Space
spot;1259110 wrote: I don't mind what it takes or how much of our worldwide resources we have to plunder to get a permanent presence off-planet, we have to make it happen. If all we leave behind is a life-free cinder then that's a cost well worth paying.
Make space exploration a commercial entity and I'd be all for that!
I'd personally hault all but 10% of the funding that is being thrown into a pit of "risky return"! The 10% serving to keep itself afloat by the taxes seen from the colleges most endowed.
It's already relatively known that inhabiting other planets besides Earth, while keeping the endeavor profitable in the least let alone sufficient, is quite frankly impossible! Utterly impossible!
Make space exploration a commercial entity and I'd be all for that!
I'd personally hault all but 10% of the funding that is being thrown into a pit of "risky return"! The 10% serving to keep itself afloat by the taxes seen from the colleges most endowed.
It's already relatively known that inhabiting other planets besides Earth, while keeping the endeavor profitable in the least let alone sufficient, is quite frankly impossible! Utterly impossible!
Colonising Space
For some reason I see a parallel brewing relative to "jet compulsion packs"? :yh_rotfl
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259194 wrote: It's already relatively known that inhabiting other planets besides Earth, while keeping the endeavor profitable in the least let alone sufficient, is quite frankly impossible! Utterly impossible!Given that nobody's yet found even one earth-like planet as a possible destination I think you're jumping the gun slightly there.
How about if I throw in a quote from someone respectable.The long-term survival of the human race is at risk as long as it is confined to a single planet. Sooner or later, disasters such as an asteroid collision or nuclear war could wipe us all out. But once we spread out into space and establish independent colonies, our future should be safe. There isn't anywhere like the Earth in the solar system, so we would have to go to another star.
Stephen Hawking
How about if I throw in a quote from someone respectable.The long-term survival of the human race is at risk as long as it is confined to a single planet. Sooner or later, disasters such as an asteroid collision or nuclear war could wipe us all out. But once we spread out into space and establish independent colonies, our future should be safe. There isn't anywhere like the Earth in the solar system, so we would have to go to another star.
Stephen Hawking
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259200 wrote: Given that nobody's yet found even one earth-like planet as a possible destination I think you're jumping the gun slightly there.
How about if I throw in a quote from someone respectable.The long-term survival of the human race is at risk as long as it is confined to a single planet. Sooner or later, disasters such as an asteroid collision or nuclear war could wipe us all out. But once we spread out into space and establish independent colonies, our future should be safe. There isn't anywhere like the Earth in the solar system, so we would have to go to another star.
Stephen Hawking
If I weren't so intelligent I'd say Stephen Hawking were jumping the gun but he's not! I just feel however that someone with such a tremendous intellect as Stephen Hawking he can't help but care for the human race over a much longer period of "time".
Earth like planets are rare comparative to the Universe let alone our solar system and even if there were Earth like planets discovered by humans it'd take 500 years to have the technology to get there! Intriguingly, both orbit the same star, a dwarf 20 light-years from Earth called Gliese 581, European researchers said Tuesday.Two planets identified as most similar to Earth - Los Angeles Times
1 light year is the distance that light travels in a vacuum in 1 year; 5.88 trillion miles or 9.46 trillion kilometers define: light year all you have to do is times that by 20 and you get 117.60 trillion miles or 189.20 trillion kilometers.
Commercial space would propel space exploration much faster than any confined to the "moral certainty" of any government.
How about if I throw in a quote from someone respectable.The long-term survival of the human race is at risk as long as it is confined to a single planet. Sooner or later, disasters such as an asteroid collision or nuclear war could wipe us all out. But once we spread out into space and establish independent colonies, our future should be safe. There isn't anywhere like the Earth in the solar system, so we would have to go to another star.
Stephen Hawking
If I weren't so intelligent I'd say Stephen Hawking were jumping the gun but he's not! I just feel however that someone with such a tremendous intellect as Stephen Hawking he can't help but care for the human race over a much longer period of "time".
Earth like planets are rare comparative to the Universe let alone our solar system and even if there were Earth like planets discovered by humans it'd take 500 years to have the technology to get there! Intriguingly, both orbit the same star, a dwarf 20 light-years from Earth called Gliese 581, European researchers said Tuesday.Two planets identified as most similar to Earth - Los Angeles Times
1 light year is the distance that light travels in a vacuum in 1 year; 5.88 trillion miles or 9.46 trillion kilometers define: light year all you have to do is times that by 20 and you get 117.60 trillion miles or 189.20 trillion kilometers.
Commercial space would propel space exploration much faster than any confined to the "moral certainty" of any government.
Colonising Space
I'd forgot to mention the money we could save would go to help the hungry.
People are starving and "we" want to ride rockets.
People are starving and "we" want to ride rockets.
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259207 wrote: I'd forgot to mention the money we could save would go to help the hungry.
People are starving and "we" want to ride rockets.
There's scarcely any point in feeding the hungry if their descendants are doomed to species extinction. You need to prioritize. Firstly guarantee the survival of the species, then cater for their comfort as individuals.
People are starving and "we" want to ride rockets.
There's scarcely any point in feeding the hungry if their descendants are doomed to species extinction. You need to prioritize. Firstly guarantee the survival of the species, then cater for their comfort as individuals.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259219 wrote: There's scarcely any point in feeding the hungry if their descendants are doomed to species extinction. You need to prioritize. Firstly guarantee the survival of the species, then cater for their comfort as individuals.
I disagree.
A life never haven taken a breath knows not a full belly.
I disagree.
A life never haven taken a breath knows not a full belly.
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259225 wrote: A life never haven taken a breath knows not a full belly.That's as good a description of an extinct species as you could hope to find.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
I disagree that we're "accepting" that we will eventually find another planet that is inhabitable for all life in the near future let alone at all.
You can't expect an argument be anymore credible simply because you throw more money on it. It was gmc that mentioned that there are far greater innovations having been discovered as opposed to invented than one too many understand.
You'd have to bring about the success rate of space endeavors relative in equal measure to those involved and their knowledge of what they'd expected compared to the percentage of the overall accepted possibility that we will find an inhabitable planet, Earth like, or not.
Far too much of a gradient in my opinion.
You can't expect an argument be anymore credible simply because you throw more money on it. It was gmc that mentioned that there are far greater innovations having been discovered as opposed to invented than one too many understand.
You'd have to bring about the success rate of space endeavors relative in equal measure to those involved and their knowledge of what they'd expected compared to the percentage of the overall accepted possibility that we will find an inhabitable planet, Earth like, or not.
Far too much of a gradient in my opinion.
Colonising Space
spot;1259231 wrote: That's as good a description of an extinct species as you could hope to find.
You can't sacrifice the present to save the future, it's not logical.
I'm sacrificing the future to save the present. You present a scenario that assumes the future is doomed. The argument is based off of the idea that A new climatic jump, he concludes, will occur within the next few years or decades, and will involve an abrupt increase in average global surface temperature of 9 degrees Celsius—from 15 to 24 degrees Celsius (59 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit). Such a shift, he contends, will trigger the collapse of our global civilization and the near extinction of humanity. is correct. It's a computerized simulation by one man.
No one knows for sure if Earth will be doomed. That doesn't mean steps shouldn't be taken to insure that Earth will not be doomed based off any given observation for the better.
My proposal increases the growth rate of space exploration while cutting peoples taxes, relative to those imposed by space exploration, by 90%. How in the world is that unwarranted?
You can't sacrifice the present to save the future, it's not logical.
I'm sacrificing the future to save the present. You present a scenario that assumes the future is doomed. The argument is based off of the idea that A new climatic jump, he concludes, will occur within the next few years or decades, and will involve an abrupt increase in average global surface temperature of 9 degrees Celsius—from 15 to 24 degrees Celsius (59 to 75 degrees Fahrenheit). Such a shift, he contends, will trigger the collapse of our global civilization and the near extinction of humanity. is correct. It's a computerized simulation by one man.
No one knows for sure if Earth will be doomed. That doesn't mean steps shouldn't be taken to insure that Earth will not be doomed based off any given observation for the better.
My proposal increases the growth rate of space exploration while cutting peoples taxes, relative to those imposed by space exploration, by 90%. How in the world is that unwarranted?
Colonising Space
spot;1259219 wrote: There's scarcely any point in feeding the hungry if their descendants are doomed to species extinction. You need to prioritize. Firstly guarantee the survival of the species, then cater for their comfort as individuals.
I don't know why you guys are all so worried. They're not going to find a suitable planet for Earthlings to inhabit within our lifetime.
Even if, by some miracle, a suitable planet were to be found, we wouldn't have the technology to travel the requisite distance and even if, by some miracle, the distance were to be mastered, would we have the ability to survive all that it might tax our ingenuity with.
Furthermore if, by some miracle, a suitable planet were to be found and the technology to travel the requisite distance were available and we were even able to overcome any and all obstacles in order to colonise the planet - they're not going to choose any of us to explore and colonise their brave new world now, are they? :yh_rotfl
As Douglas Adams suggested, we're probably the descendants of an unwanted ship full of hairdressers along with others of their ilk. :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
So if you consider that, in all probability, none of us and none of our descendants are likely to carry on living on some brave new world and that instead our lines of descent will all end abruptly when our planet does become a life-free cinder, then surely it is better for us to consider how we may improve life for the current population on our mudball of a planet and then aim for future generations to work towards worldwide sustainability of all our resources.
Just a thought.
I don't know why you guys are all so worried. They're not going to find a suitable planet for Earthlings to inhabit within our lifetime.
Even if, by some miracle, a suitable planet were to be found, we wouldn't have the technology to travel the requisite distance and even if, by some miracle, the distance were to be mastered, would we have the ability to survive all that it might tax our ingenuity with.
Furthermore if, by some miracle, a suitable planet were to be found and the technology to travel the requisite distance were available and we were even able to overcome any and all obstacles in order to colonise the planet - they're not going to choose any of us to explore and colonise their brave new world now, are they? :yh_rotfl
As Douglas Adams suggested, we're probably the descendants of an unwanted ship full of hairdressers along with others of their ilk. :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
So if you consider that, in all probability, none of us and none of our descendants are likely to carry on living on some brave new world and that instead our lines of descent will all end abruptly when our planet does become a life-free cinder, then surely it is better for us to consider how we may improve life for the current population on our mudball of a planet and then aim for future generations to work towards worldwide sustainability of all our resources.
Just a thought.
Colonising Space
You're both looking for short-term benefits at the expense of a guaranteed long-term disaster. I wouldn't dream of saying these colonies will come into existence during our lifetimes. I do think we should all forgo luxury in exchange for attempting a long-term species survival, guaranteed or not. The Lovelock article was a single instance. Species extinction if we stay on a single planet is an absolute guarantee.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259242 wrote: You're both looking for short-term benefits at the expense of a guaranteed long-term disaster. I wouldn't dream of saying these colonies will come into existence during our lifetimes. I do think we should all forgo luxury in exchange for attempting a long-term species survival, guaranteed or not. The Lovelock article was a single instance. Species extinction if we stay on a single planet is an absolute guarantee.
My proposal benefits both virtues I'm waiting for anyone to suggest that commercializing space exploration would not increase the "benefits" from it at the same time keeping the *spectacle* tax free.
My proposal benefits both virtues I'm waiting for anyone to suggest that commercializing space exploration would not increase the "benefits" from it at the same time keeping the *spectacle* tax free.
Colonising Space
Rapunzel;1259240 wrote: As Douglas Adams suggested, we're probably the descendants of an unwanted ship full of hairdressers along with others of their ilk. :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/1257621-post6.html
http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/1257621-post6.html
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259245 wrote: My proposal benefits both virtues I'm waiting for anyone to suggest that commercializing space exploration would not increase the "benefits" from it at the same time keeping the *spectacle* tax free.
I doubt whether the spectacle is even remotely beneficial. It can happen behind closed doors without cameras for all I care. The final commercial payback - if you equate commercial with a positive payback - is either zero or positive. The result of staying here is a guaranteed zero.
I'm not looking to NASA to achieve any of this, nor to Western entrepreneurs. The rate of progress of the Chinese space venture suggests to me that they'll eclipse everyone else. If they get out there and nobody else bothers then I'll be quite content, the safety goal for the species will have been achieved.
I doubt whether the spectacle is even remotely beneficial. It can happen behind closed doors without cameras for all I care. The final commercial payback - if you equate commercial with a positive payback - is either zero or positive. The result of staying here is a guaranteed zero.
I'm not looking to NASA to achieve any of this, nor to Western entrepreneurs. The rate of progress of the Chinese space venture suggests to me that they'll eclipse everyone else. If they get out there and nobody else bothers then I'll be quite content, the safety goal for the species will have been achieved.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259242 wrote: You're both looking for short-term benefits at the expense of a guaranteed long-term disaster. I wouldn't dream of saying these colonies will come into existence during our lifetimes. I do think we should all forgo luxury in exchange for attempting a long-term species survival, guaranteed or not. The Lovelock article was a single instance. Species extinction if we stay on a single planet is an absolute guarantee.
Species extinction may occur at some infinitesimal point in the far distant future. (Of course, it may also occur in 2012). Long-term species survival on some distant, and as yet unknown planet, may also occur at some infinitesimal point in the far distant future.
Didn't you say that staying on this planet was equivalent to putting all our eggs in one basket? Yet, surely, pining all our hopes of long-term survival on the discovery of an, as yet unknown, planet which will provide suitable living conditions for our race, is also the equivalent to putting all our eggs in one basket?
Surely the most appropriate choice would be 'a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B'? Plan now for the planets sustainability and make future plans for off-world living, should the opportunity become available and be viable.
Besides which, how do you know such forward-thinking plans are not already in operation? In the film/movie 'Independence Day' when it is 'discovered' that hidden government circles know about an alien invasion of our planet (Roswell) and are working to learn more about alien technology, the question is asked: 'How do you finance this type of work and yet it doesn't show up in the governments budget?' The answer being 'Do you really believe a budget that spends $100 on a hammer or $1000 on a stool?' (It's a misquote as I can't remember the exact words...but you get the gist. )
Species extinction may occur at some infinitesimal point in the far distant future. (Of course, it may also occur in 2012
). Long-term species survival on some distant, and as yet unknown planet, may also occur at some infinitesimal point in the far distant future. Didn't you say that staying on this planet was equivalent to putting all our eggs in one basket? Yet, surely, pining all our hopes of long-term survival on the discovery of an, as yet unknown, planet which will provide suitable living conditions for our race, is also the equivalent to putting all our eggs in one basket?
Surely the most appropriate choice would be 'a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B'? Plan now for the planets sustainability and make future plans for off-world living, should the opportunity become available and be viable.
Besides which, how do you know such forward-thinking plans are not already in operation? In the film/movie 'Independence Day' when it is 'discovered' that hidden government circles know about an alien invasion of our planet (Roswell) and are working to learn more about alien technology, the question is asked: 'How do you finance this type of work and yet it doesn't show up in the governments budget?' The answer being 'Do you really believe a budget that spends $100 on a hammer or $1000 on a stool?' (It's a misquote as I can't remember the exact words...but you get the gist.
)Colonising Space
spot;1259249 wrote: The result of staying here is a guaranteed zero.
That's not true spot.
Couldn't be different the increase in the worlds population not being relevant to the idea space exploration has benefited one.
One could be the astronaut or Cosmonaut.
That's not true spot.
Couldn't be different the increase in the worlds population not being relevant to the idea space exploration has benefited one.
One could be the astronaut or Cosmonaut.
Colonising Space
All I ask is that space exploration not be forced upon the public beyond it's ability to benefit the present, which by default benefits the future.
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259261 wrote: All I ask is that space exploration not be forced upon the public beyond it's ability to benefit the present, which by default benefits the future.
That's scarcely the spirit which took men to the moon and back, is it.
That's scarcely the spirit which took men to the moon and back, is it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259265 wrote: That's scarcely the spirit which took men to the moon and back, is it.
I'm interested to know what they were supposed to find on the moon!
I'm interested to know what they were supposed to find on the moon!
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259272 wrote: I'm interested to know what they were supposed to find on the moon!
Things beyond the beyond the ability of the mission to benefit the present.
Things beyond the beyond the ability of the mission to benefit the present.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259274 wrote: Things beyond the beyond the ability of the mission to benefit the present.
I would have objected then and object now to the equivalent of in how much the mission hadn't benefited society relative to their expenditures American or not. I'd help and African before I'd help an American!
I would have objected then and object now to the equivalent of in how much the mission hadn't benefited society relative to their expenditures American or not. I'd help and African before I'd help an American!
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259280 wrote: I would have objected then and object now to the equivalent of in how much the mission hadn't benefited society relative to their expenditures American or not. I'd help and African before I'd help an American!
It's just as well the future of space colonization doesn't lie solely in the hands of Americans then, isn't it.
It's just as well the future of space colonization doesn't lie solely in the hands of Americans then, isn't it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259296 wrote: It's just as well the future of space colonization doesn't lie solely in the hands of Americans then, isn't it.
Not unless you want to kick around a bunch of dirt!
Not unless you want to kick around a bunch of dirt!
Colonising Space
You're presenting the possibilities as a black and white, either or, situation - either we spend all of our effort making the Earth pristine or we spend all of our effort in setting up space colonies.
Given the short term risk to human existence from environmental breakdown and the long term nature of space colonisation I see it differently. We *have* to put our short term effort into securing our medium term future on Earth - not make Earth pristine but making sure it remains inhabitable. One that is achieved, then we can make an all out effort to seed space - until it is achieved it would be madness to embark on a path that will take longer to travel than we are likely to have available to us.
Given the short term risk to human existence from environmental breakdown and the long term nature of space colonisation I see it differently. We *have* to put our short term effort into securing our medium term future on Earth - not make Earth pristine but making sure it remains inhabitable. One that is achieved, then we can make an all out effort to seed space - until it is achieved it would be madness to embark on a path that will take longer to travel than we are likely to have available to us.
Colonising Space
We could live on Moon, just that,..
...
we'd have to move alot!
...
we'd have to move alot!
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259304 wrote: We could live on Moon, just that,..
...
we'd have to move alot!
space...the final frontier!:yh_rotfl
...
we'd have to move alot!
space...the final frontier!:yh_rotfl
Life is just to short for drama.
Colonising Space
Odie;1259306 wrote: space...the final frontier!:yh_rotfl
We could call it "Asteroid Trek!"!
Blames D. Dirt --"Well "Spot"("Spot" not "Spock" because have you seen all of those impact craters?
!?!) any new figures on the atmosphere generator?"
Spot -- "Well,.."
*BOOM!*
*Credits*!
We could call it "Asteroid Trek!"!
Blames D. Dirt --"Well "Spot"("Spot" not "Spock" because have you seen all of those impact craters?
!?!) any new figures on the atmosphere generator?"Spot -- "Well,.."
*BOOM!*
*Credits*!
Colonising Space
I don't think it's too far out of the question to ask those that feel space exploration is an immediate concern when it is you feel humanity will discover an inhabitable planet let alone when you feel "we" could move there.
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259331 wrote: I don't think it's too far out of the question to ask those that feel space exploration is an immediate concern when it is you feel humanity will discover an inhabitable planet let alone when you feel "we" could move there.
First thing to do would be to colonise Mars - at least spreads the risk and provides experience for the type of living conditions we would have in transit out of the solar system.
A while yet before we are up to making hundred year plus voyages to to more Earth like planets.
First thing to do would be to colonise Mars - at least spreads the risk and provides experience for the type of living conditions we would have in transit out of the solar system.
A while yet before we are up to making hundred year plus voyages to to more Earth like planets.
Colonising Space
Bryn Mawr;1259359 wrote: [QUOTE=K.Snyder;1259331]I don't think it's too far out of the question to ask those that feel space exploration is an immediate concern when it is you feel humanity will discover an inhabitable planet let alone when you feel "we" could move there.First thing to do would be to colonise Mars - at least spreads the risk and provides experience for the type of living conditions we would have in transit out of the solar system.
A while yet before we are up to making hundred year plus voyages to to more Earth like planets.
The colonies have to be entirely self-sustaining and capable of exponential growth. By all means put several on Mars and even several on the Moon, that might take 200 years to establish them.
During that time the inhabitable planets within a 20 light year radius can be mapped out. Select the best ten candidates from among them and dispatch an ark to each. Travelling at a non-relativistic fiftieth of the speed of light they'd each take up to 1000 years to arrive and a further 1000 years to build up to the stage where they could in turn despatch a further ten equivalent arks each, that being their primary directive after which they're free of obligation. That rate of expansion completely populates the galaxy with Earth life within two million years and puts it into a position of relative safety - I assume it takes a major event to destroy a galaxy.
That's an achievable timescale. There's no significant benefit for the first 200 years, there's a degree of safety once the arks are then despatched, that's improved after 2200 years with departure of the last of the second wave, there's considerable safety as the million year mark is approached.
200 years is an eyeblink as far as species development goes. I think we can invest the planet for that long. It's 40 years since the moon program, we've spent the time since in tentative development. The reason we're about ready is that we now have the processing hardware to build with.
A while yet before we are up to making hundred year plus voyages to to more Earth like planets.
The colonies have to be entirely self-sustaining and capable of exponential growth. By all means put several on Mars and even several on the Moon, that might take 200 years to establish them.
During that time the inhabitable planets within a 20 light year radius can be mapped out. Select the best ten candidates from among them and dispatch an ark to each. Travelling at a non-relativistic fiftieth of the speed of light they'd each take up to 1000 years to arrive and a further 1000 years to build up to the stage where they could in turn despatch a further ten equivalent arks each, that being their primary directive after which they're free of obligation. That rate of expansion completely populates the galaxy with Earth life within two million years and puts it into a position of relative safety - I assume it takes a major event to destroy a galaxy.
That's an achievable timescale. There's no significant benefit for the first 200 years, there's a degree of safety once the arks are then despatched, that's improved after 2200 years with departure of the last of the second wave, there's considerable safety as the million year mark is approached.
200 years is an eyeblink as far as species development goes. I think we can invest the planet for that long. It's 40 years since the moon program, we've spent the time since in tentative development. The reason we're about ready is that we now have the processing hardware to build with.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
But think how amazing it would all be,
Like let’s say we populate Mars, and Mars is being governed by the politicians on earth. So the politicians on earth find that the colonization of Mars is expensive, so they introduce a tax on the people living on Mars to fund the colonization.
Then the people on Mars say ‘hey, that’s taxation without representation’ and start a revolution and Mars ends up as an independent planet.
Then earth decides to invade Mars and there is the first of many future planetary wars.
You could make a movie about something like this…..
Like let’s say we populate Mars, and Mars is being governed by the politicians on earth. So the politicians on earth find that the colonization of Mars is expensive, so they introduce a tax on the people living on Mars to fund the colonization.
Then the people on Mars say ‘hey, that’s taxation without representation’ and start a revolution and Mars ends up as an independent planet.
Then earth decides to invade Mars and there is the first of many future planetary wars.
You could make a movie about something like this…..
Colonising Space
I've always said, "Right now we are like a family where the entire family tree, grandparents, parents, children, aunts, uncles, and cousins are living in the same house. if that house burns down...what happens to that family?"
If only for the reason that we are now capable of completely annihilating the surface of this ball of rock, we should have other places where there are humans.
Add in the fact that soon population pressure will make life here miserable, if not untenable, and you have a compelling reason for the colonization of other worlds.
(BTW: Current number of discovered worlds: 400)
If only for the reason that we are now capable of completely annihilating the surface of this ball of rock, we should have other places where there are humans.
Add in the fact that soon population pressure will make life here miserable, if not untenable, and you have a compelling reason for the colonization of other worlds.
(BTW: Current number of discovered worlds: 400)
Colonising Space
Bryn Mawr;1259359 wrote: First thing to do would be to colonise Mars - at least spreads the risk and provides experience for the type of living conditions we would have in transit out of the solar system.
A while yet before we are up to making hundred year plus voyages to to more Earth like planets.
I can't help but be reminded of my childhood when I'd found it desirable to immerse myself with the intricacies, along with the complete and utter "luxury", of choking myself to death on a Pixy Stick.
Mars has no atmosphere and everyone would choke to death. Would be 100,000 years or more before life could be sustained on Mars, in my mind, so come the 1021st century we could begin to get serious about it. Unless "Colonizing Space" is in reference to bringing Mars' atmosphere into fruition via technology and then I'd have to say it'd be a waste of money.
A while yet before we are up to making hundred year plus voyages to to more Earth like planets.
I can't help but be reminded of my childhood when I'd found it desirable to immerse myself with the intricacies, along with the complete and utter "luxury", of choking myself to death on a Pixy Stick.
Mars has no atmosphere and everyone would choke to death. Would be 100,000 years or more before life could be sustained on Mars, in my mind, so come the 1021st century we could begin to get serious about it. Unless "Colonizing Space" is in reference to bringing Mars' atmosphere into fruition via technology and then I'd have to say it'd be a waste of money.
Colonising Space
Domes, Snyder. Underground cities with airlocks to the surface. Nobody is talking about terraforming here.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259677 wrote: Domes, Snyder. Underground cities with airlocks to the surface. Nobody is talking about terraforming here.
The electricity would have to be generated from underground. You'd still need the soil be damp enough to, on Mars specifically, to not clog any known physical human presence which demands enough water to supply to it's citizens as well as the planet. You'd need millions of tons of water to be dropped in to the starting point, and you'd then need a monumentally gigantic machine designed to compress atoms in such a way you'd create H2O(I'd read somewhere in Beyond the Eons by Isaac Asimov I believe that this would be possible but not exactly sure). On that everyone would have to have millions upon millions of tons of oxygen pumped to them from somewhere. On all of that then, just then, would it become sensible, given ones distinct preference to oblige themselves within the confines of irrational thought, could all of this be speculated. Bring ear muffs!
I'm under the assumption that the definition of "airlocks" doesn't apply to Mars.
The electricity would have to be generated from underground. You'd still need the soil be damp enough to, on Mars specifically, to not clog any known physical human presence which demands enough water to supply to it's citizens as well as the planet. You'd need millions of tons of water to be dropped in to the starting point, and you'd then need a monumentally gigantic machine designed to compress atoms in such a way you'd create H2O(I'd read somewhere in Beyond the Eons by Isaac Asimov I believe that this would be possible but not exactly sure). On that everyone would have to have millions upon millions of tons of oxygen pumped to them from somewhere. On all of that then, just then, would it become sensible, given ones distinct preference to oblige themselves within the confines of irrational thought, could all of this be speculated. Bring ear muffs!
I'm under the assumption that the definition of "airlocks" doesn't apply to Mars.
Colonising Space
What would be(albeit only so for ones short term interest) pertinent would be to barrage the planet Jupiter with Earths entire stockpile of nuclear weapons in the hopes of speeding up it's process in becoming a red dwarf star ultimately creating a mini Sun which could eventually warm Mars to the point it's surface temperatures would be bearable! Obviously this would have to be done with an already extreme amount of water on Mars in the hopes of creating global warming on what could only be described by the observers living on the planet as Satans arm pit!
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259690 wrote: The electricity would have to be generated from underground. You'd still need the soil be damp enough to, on Mars specifically, to not clog any known physical human presence which demands enough water to supply to it's citizens as well as the planet. You'd need millions of tons of water to be dropped in to the starting point, and you'd then need a monumentally gigantic machine designed to compress atoms in such a way you'd create H2O(I'd read somewhere in Beyond the Eons by Isaac Asimov I believe that this would be possible but not exactly sure). On that everyone would have to have millions upon millions of tons of oxygen pumped to them from somewhere. On all of that then, just then, would it become sensible, given ones distinct preference to oblige themselves within the confines of irrational thought, could all of this be speculated. Bring ear muffs!
I'm under the assumption that the definition of "airlocks" doesn't apply to Mars.
You put an airlock to go in and out of the pressurised cities. Why would you not call it an airlock?
If you take a sufficiently powerful nuclear reactor, of the order of perhaps a thousand megawatts, with enough fuel to keep it running, you can extract all your millions of tons of water from the local rocks, electrochemically. They might not be wet but they have plenty of hydrogen and oxygen chemically bonded within them. All the raw materials you need to create a civilization from scratch are available so long as you have the electrical power to extract it. The only stuff you need take is what you'd consume while setting up your extractor and getting into production.
I'm under the assumption that the definition of "airlocks" doesn't apply to Mars.
You put an airlock to go in and out of the pressurised cities. Why would you not call it an airlock?
If you take a sufficiently powerful nuclear reactor, of the order of perhaps a thousand megawatts, with enough fuel to keep it running, you can extract all your millions of tons of water from the local rocks, electrochemically. They might not be wet but they have plenty of hydrogen and oxygen chemically bonded within them. All the raw materials you need to create a civilization from scratch are available so long as you have the electrical power to extract it. The only stuff you need take is what you'd consume while setting up your extractor and getting into production.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Colonising Space
spot;1259718 wrote: You put an airlock to go in and out of the pressurised cities. Why would you not call it an airlock?
If you take a sufficiently powerful nuclear reactor, of the order of perhaps a thousand megawatts, with enough fuel to keep it running, you can extract all your millions of tons of water from the local rocks, electrochemically. They might not be wet but they have plenty of hydrogen and oxygen chemically bonded within them. All the raw materials you need to create a civilization from scratch are available so long as you have the electrical power to extract it. The only stuff you need take is what you'd consume while setting up your extractor and getting into production.
I was under the impression anything made possible, by the presumptuous nature of our(Earth) society, to prevent the finest of grains from protruding said equipment was not a practicality on Mars specifically.
If you take a sufficiently powerful nuclear reactor, of the order of perhaps a thousand megawatts, with enough fuel to keep it running, you can extract all your millions of tons of water from the local rocks, electrochemically. They might not be wet but they have plenty of hydrogen and oxygen chemically bonded within them. All the raw materials you need to create a civilization from scratch are available so long as you have the electrical power to extract it. The only stuff you need take is what you'd consume while setting up your extractor and getting into production.
I was under the impression anything made possible, by the presumptuous nature of our(Earth) society, to prevent the finest of grains from protruding said equipment was not a practicality on Mars specifically.
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259759 wrote: I was under the impression anything made possible, by the presumptuous nature of our(Earth) society, to prevent the finest of grains from protruding said equipment was not a practicality on Mars specifically.
Airlocks? They work on the Space Station, why would they not work on Mars? The new Lunar Landers have them too, and there's plenty of dust where they're going.
The nuclear power plant? They already run those in space too. They work anywhere. Why would they not work on Mars?
Airlocks? They work on the Space Station, why would they not work on Mars? The new Lunar Landers have them too, and there's plenty of dust where they're going.
The nuclear power plant? They already run those in space too. They work anywhere. Why would they not work on Mars?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Colonising Space
Must admit I thought we already have the technologies required to colonise the Moon and Mars. Just be vvv expensive and probably takes a few tries - look what happened to early British colonies in the New World.
I'm all for it. In fact I regard it as an urgent necessity.
I'm all for it. In fact I regard it as an urgent necessity.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Colonising Space
spot;1259772 wrote: Airlocks? They work on the Space Station, why would they not work on Mars? The new Lunar Landers have them too, and there's plenty of dust where they're going.
The nuclear power plant? They already run those in space too. They work anywhere. Why would they not work on Mars?
So we're talking about satellite nuclear power plants on top of the idea of finding peoples willing to blast in to space embarking on what could only be the most of a 3 year journey to a land from which temperatures "vary from lows of about −140 °C (−220 °F) during the polar winters to highs of up to 20 °C (68 °F) in summers" all the while having an atmosphere made up of "95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, and contains traces of oxygen and water" much to the expectations of the enthused to find equal the interest in those without objection to living the rest of their lives as a hermit without a lack of concern for the fact they'd have to pi
and sh in a suit so long as they breath it! :yh_think
Could work!
How much are the tickets?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars
The nuclear power plant? They already run those in space too. They work anywhere. Why would they not work on Mars?
So we're talking about satellite nuclear power plants on top of the idea of finding peoples willing to blast in to space embarking on what could only be the most of a 3 year journey to a land from which temperatures "vary from lows of about −140 °C (−220 °F) during the polar winters to highs of up to 20 °C (68 °F) in summers" all the while having an atmosphere made up of "95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, and contains traces of oxygen and water" much to the expectations of the enthused to find equal the interest in those without objection to living the rest of their lives as a hermit without a lack of concern for the fact they'd have to pi
and sh in a suit so long as they breath it! :yh_thinkCould work!
How much are the tickets?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars
-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259819 wrote: So we're talking about satellite nuclear power plants on top of the idea of finding peoples willing to blast in to space embarking on what could only be the most of a 3 year journey to a land from which temperatures "vary from lows of about −140 °C (−220 °F) during the polar winters to highs of up to 20 °C (68 °F) in summers" all the while having an atmosphere made up of "95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, and contains traces of oxygen and water" much to the expectations of the enthused to find equal the interest in those without objection to living the rest of their lives as a hermit without a lack of concern for the fact they'd have to pi and sh in a suit so long as they breath it! :yh_think
Could work!
How much are the tickets?
Mars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
???
I thought the nuclear reactor would be on the surface. Build geodesic domes or build underground (both, probably). Hydroponics. Mine for minerals. It could be done now, if we have the will. NASA seem to, bless 'em. I'll take spot's word for the Chinese.
500 years ago they said you'd sail off the edge of the world if you went too far West from Europe...
and sh in a suit so long as they breath it! :yh_thinkCould work!
How much are the tickets?
Mars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
???
I thought the nuclear reactor would be on the surface. Build geodesic domes or build underground (both, probably). Hydroponics. Mine for minerals. It could be done now, if we have the will. NASA seem to, bless 'em. I'll take spot's word for the Chinese.
500 years ago they said you'd sail off the edge of the world if you went too far West from Europe...
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Colonising Space
Clodhopper;1259835 wrote: ???
I thought the nuclear reactor would be on the surface. Build geodesic domes or build underground (both, probably). Hydroponics. Mine for minerals. It could be done now, if we have the will. NASA seem to, bless 'em. I'll take spot's word for the Chinese.
500 years ago they said you'd sail off the edge of the world if you went too far West from Europe...
What would be the resources you'd primarily shoot for here?
By my calculations that's a load of asparagus!
I thought the nuclear reactor would be on the surface. Build geodesic domes or build underground (both, probably). Hydroponics. Mine for minerals. It could be done now, if we have the will. NASA seem to, bless 'em. I'll take spot's word for the Chinese.
500 years ago they said you'd sail off the edge of the world if you went too far West from Europe...
What would be the resources you'd primarily shoot for here?
By my calculations that's a
load of asparagus!-
Clodhopper
- Posts: 5115
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm
Colonising Space
What would be the resources you'd primarily shoot for here?
Sorry - don't understand what you are saying. That damned mid-Atlantic Babel zone!
By my calculations that's a load of asparagus!
Asparagus wouldn't be top of my list of resources...
Ooh. On second thoughts, cooked in olive oil with a little black pepper...MMMMmmmm!
Sorry - don't understand what you are saying. That damned mid-Atlantic Babel zone!
By my calculations that's a
load of asparagus!Asparagus wouldn't be top of my list of resources...
Ooh. On second thoughts, cooked in olive oil with a little black pepper...MMMMmmmm!
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Lone voice: "I'm not."
Colonising Space
Clodhopper;1259852 wrote: Sorry - don't understand what you are saying. That damned mid-Atlantic Babel zone!
Asparagus wouldn't be top of my list of resources...
Ooh. On second thoughts, cooked in olive oil with a little black pepper...MMMMmmmm!
You'd have to have enough resources to mine for to keep the operation entirely self sufficient otherwise you're not only negating the reasoning behind the entire project but you'd very definitively serve to waste a load of money.
Asparagus wouldn't be top of my list of resources...
Ooh. On second thoughts, cooked in olive oil with a little black pepper...MMMMmmmm!
You'd have to have enough resources to mine for to keep the operation entirely self sufficient otherwise you're not only negating the reasoning behind the entire project but you'd very definitively serve to waste a
load of money.Colonising Space
K.Snyder;1259856 wrote: You'd have to have enough resources to mine for to keep the operation entirely self sufficient otherwise you're not only negating the reasoning behind the entire project but you'd very definitively serve to waste a load of money.
Then you've defined the resources to mine for - enough to be self-sustaining and to expand at a rate sufficient to keep up with the births. If it's not self-sustaining then it's a waste of time, just as you say.
load of money.Then you've defined the resources to mine for - enough to be self-sustaining and to expand at a rate sufficient to keep up with the births. If it's not self-sustaining then it's a waste of time, just as you say.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.