Hitler, a kindly man or monster

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:58 am

A new film portraying the Nazi dictator as a kind old gentleman has packed cinemas in Germany and opens in Ireland next month.

Hitler's first appearance in the new film 'Downfall is an uncanny experience for the viewer. For a moment it seems as if we are seeing the man himself in some new documentary footage. Bruno Ganz, who plays the Fuehrer, looks, moves and talks exactly like the real Hitler, as is attested by Ian Kershaw and Joachim Fest, two historians who have spent most of their careers studying and writing about the Nazi dictator.

Ganz has completely mastered Hitler's body language and his speech patterns, the soft, musical Austrian accent which he used in private conversation, that it is easy to forget this is just an impersonation of the man responsible for the murder of millions.

And that, for many in Germany and beyond, is the problem. The Hitler shown in the film is not the incarnation of pure evil that we expect, a devil without a single recognisably human, or humane, characteristie. On the contrary, he is capable of a surprising decency. He is kind to his secretaries and profoundly attached to his pet Alsatian, Blondi.

Just before slipping away to kill himself, he praises his cook for serving an excellent vegetarian ravioli. He loves chocolate cake. Physically, he is a wreck of a man, stooping and shuffling, with one hand held behind his back in a vain attempt to hide the fact that it is shaking uncontrollably. Even in his most ferocious outbursts of rage against what he sees as treachery of his generals and the incompetence of his subordinates, he is not so much menacing as pathetic.

The film, made for 12m euros, has already played to almost five million people in Germany since its release there last August. This popularity has only added to the alarm of its detractors, who include the grand old man of German cinema. William Wenders. He has accused the film of deliberately blurring its perspective in order to mislead. ''Downfall", he suggests goes beyond helping viewers to understand Hitler, it enables people not to hate all of him. And this, he believes, is the first step towards not hating Hitler at all.

The film's director and scriptwriter, Oliver Hirschbiegel, insists that 'Downfall has at last allowed Germans to confront the Nazi past truthfully. "I don't say my film helps them to understand how Hitler came to have this hypnotic power over Germany. But it does get the Germans to talk about it.

The film also appeals to the German neo-Nazi movement.

www.unison.ie/

I wonder like the Passion of the Christ, will there be free tickets handed out to students and young people to see Downfall by members of OPUS DEI

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:44 am

It is very disturbing. I fancy myself an expert on Hitler and the Third Reich, I have often marveled at his charismatic tendencies, and fascinatig oration abilty. He used many tricks to control crowds that are still used today, such as playing exciting sing along music before game shows like "The Price is Right" to fire up the audience.

He manipulated the media extremely well, which is one of the reasons I am leery of them today. For example, those massive rallies he had would seem to imply that everyone in Germany was with him, but in reality every single person at those rallies was hand-invited and a staunch supporter.

How could the German people, a technically proficient and extremely religious people for centuries, become monsters in a single lifetime? Charismatic leadership and a man willing to use violence is the answer.

On an interesting sidenote: Hitler had a real quack of a personal doctor who used exotic bacteria and fungii on him to "cure" his stomach problems. By the end of the war, the doctor was prescribing methamphetamine 6 times a day. Could that be a part of the reason for his madness? (See Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story")

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:19 pm

Jives wrote: It is very disturbing. I fancy myself an expert on Hitler and the Third Reich, I have often marveled at his charismatic tendencies, and fascinatig oration abilty. He used many tricks to control crowds that are still used today, such as playing exciting sing along music before game shows like "The Price is Right" to fire up the audience.

He manipulated the media extremely well, which is one of the reasons I am leery of them today. For example, those massive rallies he had would seem to imply that everyone in Germany was with him, but in reality every single person at those rallies was hand-invited and a staunch supporter.

How could the German people, a technically proficient and extremely religious people for centuries, become monsters in a single lifetime? Charismatic leadership and a man willing to use violence is the answer.

On an interesting sidenote: Hitler had a real quack of a personal doctor who used exotic bacteria and fungii on him to "cure" his stomach problems. By the end of the war, the doctor was prescribing methamphetamine 6 times a day. Could that be a part of the reason for his madness? (See Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story")And could it happen again in Germany?

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:02 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: And could it happen again in Germany?
It could happen anywhere.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:06 pm

Sure it could, and possibly even faster than before thanks to the media. What I watch for is "The Icon" The swastika was a powerful symbol and a necessary ingredient for the Hitlerian Symbology. If I see a group gaining popularity and putting forth a powerful icon, combined with the affinity to use force to get their goals, I'll be all over them.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:30 pm

TW2005 wrote: Did you ever see the movie "The Wave"? It was about a class of high school kids who started a project in their class, because of their teacher. They had to come up with a symbol, name, and leaders and other various things. Anyway, they form this group and go so wrapped up in it, that it carried over to their everyday lives. Given this is just a movie, it was made to show how voitile people are to the kind of power a group can have on ones mind.

If anyone cares, I think the movie was mae in the 80's. I can google it if you want more info on it. PM me if so.

TW I remember the short film "The Wave." Really interesting that even armed with modern knowledge of the atrocities in WW2, a group of teens would form and support a fascist movement in their CA school (The project was a brainchild of a teacher testing the students concepts of democracy. He was fired.) and actively stifle dissent, physically many times. Like Bush's America. The followers filled the school auditorium at the end of the 'experiment' to see their Great Leader onscreen. They couldn't wait! A grainy picture emerges and Adolf Hitler begins a speech in loud sharp German with roaring crowds cheering him on. The students were stunned. They wept, became angry and learned a real tough lesson.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:52 pm

From the brief description of the project I think it is the most brilliant lesson I've ever heard. Although I think Jives could come up with something better that doesn't get him fired.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:14 pm

koan wrote: From the brief description of the project I think it is the most brilliant lesson I've ever heard. Although I think Jives could come up with something better that doesn't get him fired.

In retrospect it was a great lesson but no teacher anywhere could ever come close to replicating such an experiment today without being on every news network in the industrialized world! Parents would sue, etc. Too bad in a way. Alot of the student leaders in the "Wave" project were outcasts, nerds if you will. They found solace and strength in the new movement as they discovered confidence and security in the project. It was parents and their pressure on the B.O.E. that led to the teacher's termination. If you can find the film I recommend it.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:18 pm

David813 wrote: and actively stifle dissent, physically many times. Like Bush's America.
mmm, yas. but then, how is it your post is even here? have the jackboots contacted you at all? if not, why not? being a self-proclaimed communist in middle-america, if 'bush's america' is actively stifling dissent, why aren't you in a political prison?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:19 pm

The time will come soon enough.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:24 pm

David813 wrote: The time will come soon enough.
clearly, that is your hope. as it has been the hope of all psuedo-revolutionaries forever, here in the land of the free.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:31 pm

koan wrote: . Although I think Jives could come up with something better that doesn't get him fired.

Most astute of you Koan. I teach the same oration tactics that Hitler used in my night school communications class. Public speaking is a very necessary skill for adults...business meetings, presentations, awards and such.

His strategies of hand gestures, softly speaking and increasing in volume, the ability to sense the crowd's mood, eye contact...all of those are what makes a public speaker excellent. (and teachers are public speakers too, aren't they? Do you suppose I use any of his speaking methods myself? *wink*)

But you can be very, very sure that I never mention Hitler or make any comparisons to him even once. You don't survive in education for decades by being obtuse.

There's also an interesting movie called "Apt Pupil" that dwells on the powerful effect that evil has on young minds. A young man finds that his neighbor is a hiding Nazi war-criminal, and blackmails the man in teaching him about nazism. Very spooky!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:34 pm

anastrophe wrote: clearly, that is your hope. as it has been the hope of all psuedo-revolutionaries forever, here in the land of the free.
Jeez Anastrophe!! Can we not at least say we both hate Hitler?! So Divisive for a Forum leader!

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:39 pm

anastrophe wrote: if 'bush's america' is actively stifling dissent, why aren't you in a political prison?

Oh! ROFL! You are killin' me Anastrophe! Darn, I wish I'd written that. :wah:

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:41 pm

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:50 pm

Sorry David! but you did bring Bush into it. I apologize.

You know while we are all agreeing we all hate Hitler, I'll still have to admit that there is a certain fascination with the man. The whole rise of the Third Reich was riveting.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:07 pm

David813 wrote: Jeez Anastrophe!! Can we not at least say we both hate Hitler?! So Divisive for a Forum leader!

let me put it to you this way. i am, ostensibly, a 'forum leader'. tombstone and i own forumgarden, and run it in the desire to have a place where people can gather, virtually, and exchange ideas, as well as maybe generating a couple of shillings to click together in our respective pockets in the balance. i was an early, and longtime member of The Well, possibly the most influential online community in its time ( http://www.well.com ). I joined there in 1986, and only a year ago left. and speaking of left, that was part of the reason - the Well is a haven for those on the far left. dissent from things far leftist is simply not tolerated, even though they'd protest mightily at that suggestion. the only exception is a libertarian bent, and that only because, well, it has a somewhat fashionable ring amongst the digerati.

fundamentally, monocultures are prone to disease. and the Well has pretty much fallen into itself, metaphorically speaking. there's no There there, anymore.

now, some would take away from that that i'm therefore some sort of far-right conservative. in some respects, guilty as charged. but i have enough intellectual monkeywrenches at my disposal that the minute i say, for example, that i'm adamantly in favor of gay marriage, it's enough to cause a hideous grinding sound coming from the gearbox.

i'm also apparently adamantly in favor of digression......ahem.

i like debate. i like conflict. only through debating conflicting points of view can one come to truly concrete understanding of one's own position, in my opinion. i find a lot of irony in a communist in kansas, you'll have to forgive me! the extraordinary liberty you have available to you here in the united states affords you the unique ability to espouse a political philosophy completely contrary to the one that recognizes that liberty, but one also that would never afford you that liberty in the first place. again, i love the irony.

but my disagreeing with you doesn't mean *i'm* interested in stifling your opinion. i'll test you, and your philosophy, every opportunity that comes about. there are a great many things we agree upon, mostly outside of the political context.

so, long story short: i hate hitler too!

:yh_bigsmi :yh_bigsmi

Bullet · Post by **Bullet** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:11 pm

:yh_wink ....

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:13 pm

anastrophe wrote: clearly, that is your hope. as it has been the hope of all psuedo-revolutionaries forever, here in the land of the free.
it would probably help my credibility if i learned how to spell "pseudo".

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:25 pm

anastrophe wrote: let me put it to you this way. i am, ostensibly, a 'forum leader'. tombstone and i own forumgarden, and run it in the desire to have a place where people can gather, virtually, and exchange ideas, as well as maybe generating a couple of shillings to click together in our respective pockets in the balance. i was an early, and longtime member of The Well, possibly the most influential online community in its time ( http://www.well.com ). I joined there in 1986, and only a year ago left. and speaking of left, that was part of the reason - the Well is a haven for those on the far left. dissent from things far leftist is simply not tolerated, even though they'd protest mightily at that suggestion. the only exception is a libertarian bent, and that only because, well, it has a somewhat fashionable ring amongst the digerati.

fundamentally, monocultures are prone to disease. and the Well has pretty much fallen into itself, metaphorically speaking. there's no There there, anymore.

now, some would take away from that that i'm therefore some sort of far-right conservative. in some respects, guilty as charged. but i have enough intellectual monkeywrenches at my disposal that the minute i say, for example, that i'm adamantly in favor of gay marriage, it's enough to cause a hideous grinding sound coming from the gearbox.

i'm also apparently adamantly in favor of digression......ahem.

i like debate. i like conflict. only through debating conflicting points of view can one come to truly concrete understanding of one's own position, in my opinion. i find a lot of irony in a communist in kansas, you'll have to forgive me! the extraordinary liberty you have available to you here in the united states affords you the unique ability to espouse a political philosophy completely contrary to the one that recognizes that liberty, but one also that would never afford you that liberty in the first place. again, i love the irony.

but my disagreeing with you doesn't mean *i'm* interested in stifling your opinion. i'll test you, and your philosophy, every opportunity that comes about. there are a great many things we agree upon, mostly outside of the political context.

so, long story short: i hate hitler too!

:yh_bigsmi :yh_bigsmiI just lost a full page in a com glitch!! It was so good! Sigh. ANYWAY, I'm glad you hate Hitler too. And KC is in MISSOURI!!!!!!!!!

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:34 pm

ok..how about a rousing chorus from "the producers"...."it's springtime for hitler and germaneeeeee" ...when i was 13 i read "mein kampf" instead of "black beauty" and my Dad was a bit disturbed about it. but i have studied the third reich all my life as well. obsessively. no point here, just checking in.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:36 pm

lady cop wrote: ok..how about a rousing chorus from "the producers"...."it's springtime for hitler and germaneeeeee" ...when i was 13 i read "mein kampf" instead of "black beauty" and my Dad was a bit disturbed about it. but i have studied the third reich all my life as well. obsessively. no point here, just checking in.
OMG you're a Nazi Cop!!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:47 pm

TW2005 wrote: Thank you for fillling in the blank spots in my knowledge of the movie. Its been a while since ive seen it. But Im glad that you saw it too. I enjoyed the movie and was fasinated by it.
It was something I haven't thought of in years!! Odd how a total stranger brought the memories back!!!

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:53 pm

David813 wrote: OMG you're a Nazi Cop!!oh you just wish! i hate hitler too. but i do wear jackboots. *smack*

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:54 pm

lady cop wrote: oh you just wish! i hate hitler too. but i do wear jackboots. *smack*

Mmmmmmm. Sexyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:18 pm

David813 wrote: Mmmmmmm. Sexyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

and how sexy is being cuffed up, searched and thrown in the back of my cruiser? hmmmm?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:25 pm

lady cop wrote: and how sexy is being cuffed up, searched and thrown in the back of my cruiser? hmmmm?

Only if you rough me up first :rolleyes:

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:31 pm

David813 wrote: I just lost a full page in a com glitch!! It was so good! Sigh. ANYWAY, I'm glad you hate Hitler too. And KC is in MISSOURI!!!!!!!!!
it would probably help my credibility if i knew my geography better too.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:38 pm

anastrophe wrote: it would probably help my credibility if i knew my geography better too.
Seriously I had a whole page explaining where I came from re: these boards, political stuff and EVERYTHING! Then the com lost the server on my 408th word or something. I screamed and threw a chair at the wall. People always think KC is in Kansas. Truth is Mo & Ks HATE eachother and have since the Civil War. There is a small KCK on the other side of the river but it doesn't count. Kind of like an East St. Louis. KCMO has the skyscrapers, international airport, pro football, allegedly pro baseball, etc.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:46 am

posted by anastrophe

i like debate. i like conflict. only through debating conflicting points of view can one come to truly concrete understanding of one's own position, in my opinion. i find a lot of irony in a communist in kansas, you'll have to forgive me! the extraordinary liberty you have available to you here in the united states affords you the unique ability to espouse a political philosophy completely contrary to the one that recognizes that liberty, but one also that would never afford you that liberty in the first place. again, i love the irony.

but my disagreeing with you doesn't mean *i'm* interested in stifling your opinion. i'll test you, and your philosophy, every opportunity that comes about. there are a great many things we agree upon, mostly outside of the political context.

Good grief I think I agree with you.

it would probably help my credibility if i knew my geography better too.

Let me put this in perspective for you. Where's Missouri? If Kansas city isn't in Kansas why is it called Kansas City? Kansas is a state isn't it? or was that just follow The Wizard of Oz?

posted by ladycop

ok..how about a rousing chorus from "the producers"...."it's springtime for hitler and germaneeeeee" ...when i was 13 i read "mein kampf" instead of "black beauty" and my Dad was a bit disturbed about it. but i have studied the third reich all my life as well. obsessively. no point here, just checking in.

At least he didn't stop you. Personally I have also read marx and lenin which I find is more than most so called socialists have. They won't admit it though as a student it used to be great fun making up quotes to wind them up they liked to talk the talk but couldn't be bothered reading the read to make up their own minds.

Quote from teenage Austrian nephew "HItler was a great man who did great things for Germany" Whether that is what he is being taught or whether he was winding up his (English) grandfather is a moot point. I think such things should be studied in school, not least because it helps understand how such things can happen and help prevent them happening again. Blind obediance to a social order of any kind is not good.

Just out of curiosity how do they teach the history of America in American schools?

(o.k. in classrooms)

telaquapacky · Post by **telaquapacky** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:33 am

gmc wrote: Just out of curiosity how do they teach the history of America in American schools?(o.k. in classrooms)In my day, they taught it patriotically up through High School, but then honestly in college (depending on what college you went to). Not that I'm complaining. Grade schoolers need to believe in a perfect world for security. High schoolers can find plenty of excuses for dissent on their own, and college history classes are when they start making you form your own opinions and support them with facts.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:47 pm

gmc wrote: posted by anastrophe

Good grief I think I agree with you.

Let me put this in perspective for you. Where's Missouri? If Kansas city isn't in Kansas why is it called Kansas City? Kansas is a state isn't it? or was that just follow The Wizard of Oz?

posted by ladycop

At least he didn't stop you. Personally I have also read marx and lenin which I find is more than most so called socialists have. They won't admit it though as a student it used to be great fun making up quotes to wind them up they liked to talk the talk but couldn't be bothered reading the read to make up their own minds.

Quote from teenage Austrian nephew "HItler was a great man who did great things for Germany" Whether that is what he is being taught or whether he was winding up his (English) grandfather is a moot point. I think such things should be studied in school, not least because it helps understand how such things can happen and help prevent them happening again. Blind obediance to a social order of any kind is not good.

Just out of curiosity how do they teach the history of America in American schools?

(o.k. in classrooms)
Dig out that atlas GMC!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:58 pm

TW2005 wrote: I agree with David. KCMO has all the city like qualities of KC. KCK is just a bunch of Johnson County yuppies who drive big SUV's creating the gas shortage. KCMO has a lot more to offer than just the bland shopping centers and resturaunts of KCK and Johnson county.
I don't believe it! Someone out there knows KC! Johnson County is just a suburb. KCK is an old small impoverished shantytown with no money or safety. It arose out of the ashes of the Civil War offering refuge to slaves fleeing Missouri. KC was named when the area was in the then Kansas Territory. The borders moved after the war and the city fell into Missouri turf. The name stuck. What would Hitler think about that?