The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Discuss the Christian Faith.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

Anyone interested in explaining what this means to them?

Was Jesus the first new age preacher, or was he claiming to be God? Maybe it was, and still is, just gibberish?

One christian interpretation is that Jesus was simply stating to those he was speaking with that the kingdom of heaven was among them, him being alive and in their presence.

A more secular interpretation of what's meant by the phrase is similar to Dorothy becoming conscious that there's no place like home.

I'm thinking that as knowledge is derived the notion of an external God is challenged, and so God is given an internal place to abide for those who insist on hanging onto the notion of God(s). Yes? No?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

It would help if you give the source of the quoted phrase. I think you've misquoted it.

Taking the phrases as equivalent, I expect the first thing you'd need to distinguish between is "God", on the one hand, and "the kingdom of Heaven (or God)" on the other.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

Yes, I did misquote. It's "the kingdom of God is within you."
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

spot;1488601 wrote: It would help if you give the source of the quoted phrase. I think you've misquoted it.

Taking the phrases as equivalent, I expect the first thing you'd need to distinguish between is "God", on the one hand, and "the kingdom of Heaven (or God)" on the other.


I think they're the same, one being the external and the other internal due to enlightenment?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

It's generally reckoned that "The Kingdom of Heaven" is a euphemism used by the fastidious Matthew but meaning exactly the same as "The Kingdom of God".

It's also generally reckoned that "The Kingdom of God" is what's often referred to as The End Time.

Quite how The End Time is meant to be within a bunch of Pharisees is hard to work out. Maybe the words got garbled.

I really don't think Jesus was trying to suggest that God didn't exist, though.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

I don't know that Jesus was the FIRST new age preacher. Much of what he said was new to the folks he was preaching to, and they never seemed to really figure it all out.

Nothing he said was really new to the Eastern philosophies of the day. He always sounded pretty close to the ideas that Gautama Siddhartha preached, and what many of the old Hindu Gurus have been teaching for centuries, as well.

OR as Ram Dass said, "We re all just walking each other home."

If we are in God, and God is in us, then we are all pretty much the same, and all part of the Universe. Can the Universe contain consciousness?

If so, I would guess that is where God can be found. Then we and God and the Universe are all there is.



And that isn't really a bad notion to hang on to, I reckon.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

spot;1488607 wrote: It's generally reckoned that "The Kingdom of Heaven" is a euphemism used by the fastidious Matthew but meaning exactly the same as "The Kingdom of God".

It's also generally reckoned that "The Kingdom of God" is what's often referred to as The End Time.

Quite how The End Time is meant to be within a bunch of Pharisees is hard to work out. Maybe the words got garbled.

I really don't think Jesus was trying to suggest that God didn't exist, though.Perhaps the end times within is meant as a condemnation? Jesus did say he was sent to divide. Perhaps Jesus was saying the Pharisees were representative of older tradition which was now over (end times). Jesus was a rather accusatory figure and not really the loving, gentle soul many would like to represent him as. It seems to me Jesus preached that it's best to love the God he's presenting or else.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488609 wrote: I don't know that Jesus was the FIRST new age preacher. Much of what he said was new to the folks he was preaching to, and they never seemed to really figure it all out.

Nothing he said was really new to the Eastern philosophies of the day. He always sounded pretty close to the ideas that Gautama Siddhartha preached, and what many of the old Hindu Gurus have been teaching for centuries, as well.I'm sure you're right, though that means Jesus wasn't saying anything new and that the God he represented was behind the times and just catching up.

LarsMac;1488609 wrote: OR as Ram Dass said, "We re all just walking each other home."What does that mean?

LarsMac;1488609 wrote: If we are in God, and God is in us, then we are all pretty much the same, and all part of the Universe. You're belief in God is about equality?LarsMac;1488609 wrote: Can the Universe contain consciousness?

If so, I would guess that is where God can be found. Then we and God and the Universe are all there is.



And that isn't really a bad notion to hang on to, I reckon.What? Are you asking that since humans are self aware and are within the Universe that that gives consciousness to the Universe? Can you clarify this?

I guess defining "consciousness" would be a good start.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

Ahso!;1488622 wrote: Perhaps the end times within is meant as a condemnation? Jesus did say he was sent to divide. Perhaps Jesus was saying the Pharisees were representative of older tradition which was now over (end times). Jesus was a rather accusatory figure and not really the loving, gentle soul many would like to represent him as. It seems to me Jesus preached that it's best to love the God he's presenting or else.


The Jesus of the Gospels is above all a magician, he's red the spell-book and worked out how to force God to do what has been promised - the End of the World.

God, in the Old Testament, has stood back and let the world go to rack and ruin since the exile in Babylon, having left warnings in the books of the Major Prophets and Psalms and Daniel of what would happen. You just wait and see, says God, when a chap arrives who does this and this and this then it's game over, I'm coming down and it won't be a pretty sight.

So Jesus walks the minefield, knowing that if he can keep each foot off the booby-traps he can get to the far side as the acknowledged Son of God with as many power-lasers and archangels at his command as any crazed magician could ever hope for.

That's what The End Times were about. That's what all the early followers were waiting to see in their lifetimes, being vengeful sods.

It's also why all these lunatic born-again fundamentalist Neo-Cons are getting the world's armed forces centred as close to Megiddo as they can get. It's a place near the Golan Heights, the Greeks called the area Armageddon. The magicians are still trying as best they can to bring on Divine Intervention, believing they're fulfilling God's Plan.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488629 wrote: I'm sure you're right, though that means Jesus wasn't saying anything new and that the God he represented was behind the times and just catching up.

What does that mean?

You're belief in God is about equality?What? Are you asking that since humans are self aware and are within the Universe that that gives consciousness to the Universe? Can you clarify this?

I guess defining "consciousness" would be a good start.


Defining Consciousness.

That has been going on for a long time. The Buddha defines consciousness as simply that part of one that is aware of self.

most humans are barely conscious. They have some awareness of their surroundings and of how they are affected by them.

From a more western perspective, I have been reading an interesting book: Consciousness and the Brain: Deciphering How the Brain Codes Our Thoughts by Stanislas Dehaene

Clinically, consciousness is simply what we turn our attention to, it seems. Not really unlike the Buddhists' definition, really.

But how far does that take us? Are we all simply squirming little animals with some awareness of our surroundings, or do we have something more to offer the universe as a whole?
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by AnneBoleyn »

Ahso starts a religious thread??????????
User avatar
Mickiel
Posts: 4440
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:28 am

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Mickiel »

AnneBoleyn;1488656 wrote: Ahso starts a religious thread??????????




I know, will wonders never cease.

My take on it is that the verse should be interpreted as Jesus meaning that he was the embodiedment of the Kingdom, and he was " In their Mist." Simply meaning he was among them.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488635 wrote: Defining Consciousness.

That has been going on for a long time. The Buddha defines consciousness as simply that part of one that is aware of self.

most humans are barely conscious. They have some awareness of their surroundings and of how they are affected by them.

From a more western perspective, I have been reading an interesting book: Consciousness and the Brain: Deciphering How the Brain Codes Our Thoughts by Stanislas Dehaene

Clinically, consciousness is simply what we turn our attention to, it seems. Not really unlike the Buddhists' definition, really.

But how far does that take us? Are we all simply squirming little animals with some awareness of our surroundings, or do we have something more to offer the universe as a whole?Let's go with whatever you intended consciousness to mean in your previous post when you typed "[c]an the Universe contain consciousness?"
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

spot;1488631 wrote: The Jesus of the Gospels is above all a magician, he's red the spell-book and worked out how to force God to do what has been promised - the End of the World.

God, in the Old Testament, has stood back and let the world go to rack and ruin since the exile in Babylon, having left warnings in the books of the Major Prophets and Psalms and Daniel of what would happen. You just wait and see, says God, when a chap arrives who does this and this and this then it's game over, I'm coming down and it won't be a pretty sight.

So Jesus walks the minefield, knowing that if he can keep each foot off the booby-traps he can get to the far side as the acknowledged Son of God with as many power-lasers and archangels at his command as any crazed magician could ever hope for.

That's what The End Times were about. That's what all the early followers were waiting to see in their lifetimes, being vengeful sods.

It's also why all these lunatic born-again fundamentalist Neo-Cons are getting the world's armed forces centred as close to Megiddo as they can get. It's a place near the Golan Heights, the Greeks called the area Armageddon. The magicians are still trying as best they can to bring on Divine Intervention, believing they're fulfilling God's Plan.That almost makes it appear as if Jesus might have actually existed. I never thought of it that way.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

Mickiel;1488665 wrote: I know, will wonders never cease.

My take on it is that the verse should be interpreted as Jesus meaning that he was the embodiedment of the Kingdom, and he was " In their Mist." Simply meaning he was among them.You reject spot's analysis of the meaning behind what is said to have been said?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

AnneBoleyn;1488656 wrote: Ahso starts a religious thread??????????It isn't a religious thread as much as the thread is meant to open dialogue about what the meaning of God is within. People claiming to be inside and outside religious cults or circles use it. I doubt there's much real consensus on it, as the thread has begun to demonstrate, though it's a very small sampling. This is not the only bunch I've had similar discussions with however.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

Ahso!;1488780 wrote: That almost makes it appear as if Jesus might have actually existed.Just so long as you don't think Wise Men from the East came bearing gifts to the same chap. There's several Jesuses in the Gospels, and I bet quite a few of them weren't called Jesus until the Gospel writers went to work on them. If anyone gets round to conflating me in times to come, goodness knows who else I'll have been that ends up being labelled spot.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

It's a username I've avoided using in other venues, as good a username as spot is.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

Which I'm certain you're quite happy to learn.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488778 wrote: Let's go with whatever you intended consciousness to mean in your previous post when you typed "[c]an the Universe contain consciousness?"


I lean towards the Buddhist idea, myself. So then the question, is it possible that the Universe can be self-aware? Could we even conceive of what that would mean?

And the other part of that, is there such a thing as collective consciousness?

Some people seem to think so.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15916
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1488601 wrote: It would help if you give the source of the quoted phrase. I think you've misquoted it.

Taking the phrases as equivalent, I expect the first thing you'd need to distinguish between is "God", on the one hand, and "the kingdom of Heaven (or God)" on the other.


And the massive difference in meaning between "within you" and "amongst you" / "in your midst".

Until that part of the translation is sorted out we have no chance of knowing what was meant.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488795 wrote: I lean towards the Buddhist idea, myself. So then the question, is it possible that the Universe can be self-aware? Could we even conceive of what that would mean?

And the other part of that, is there such a thing as collective consciousness?

Some people seem to think so.What conditions need to be met for you to be satisfied that the universe is self aware, and what evidence do you see that supports that?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

Bryn Mawr;1488797 wrote: And the massive difference in meaning between "within you" and "amongst you" / "in your midst".

Until that part of the translation is sorted out we have no chance of knowing what was meant.No ganging up. :)
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6447
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by FourPart »

I've always understood it to mean that Heaven is not a physical place, per se, but an abstract state - such as defining the difference between going to somewhere called Love, or feeling Love in your heart.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Bryn Mawr;1488797 wrote: And the massive difference in meaning between "within you" and "amongst you" / "in your midst".

Until that part of the translation is sorted out we have no chance of knowing what was meant.


From most of what I have read on the subject, "within you" seems to be the proper translation. The later translators determined that Jesus would not use the spiritual context that is implied by this translation, so he must have actually said something else.

One study I found interesting:

http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol12No2/HV12N2Ramelli.pdf

It has been suggested that the man who would be known as Jesus once studied the teachings of the Buddha before he began his ministry.

Much of what he preached is very compatible with Buddhist beliefs.

I've even heard it suggested that Gautama Siddhartha and Jesus of Nazareth were incarnations of the same teacher. Of course, that gets pretty far out for most people raised in the Judeo-Christian realm.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488803 wrote: What conditions need to be met for you to be satisfied that the universe is self aware, and what evidence do you see that supports that?


Well, I think that for me to be completely satisfied, I would have to hear directly from the Universe that, not only it is self aware, but even aware of humble little old me.

Yup. That would do it.

Barring that, I suppose I will have to satisfy myself with pure speculation.

As far as evidence that might support the notion, most of it probably would look more comfortable to you in Smaug's "Weird and Wacky" thread.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488834 wrote: Well, I think that for me to be completely satisfied, I would have to hear directly from the Universe that, not only it is self aware, but even aware of humble little old me.

Yup. That would do it.

Barring that, I suppose I will have to satisfy myself with pure speculation.More like pure fantasy.

LarsMac;1488834 wrote: As far as evidence that might support the notion, most of it probably would look more comfortable to you in Smaug's "Weird and Wacky" thread.That wouldn't be comfortable for you?

I asked earlier what the we're all just walking each other home meaning was. I went and found an interview of Ram Dass (Richard Alpert). In the interview Dass was asked about the phrase. Here's the question and given answer.

DAVID: Because you’ve been such an influence on a whole generation, I asked other writers what questions I should ask you in this interview. The one I’ve chosen is from Tom Stella, who was a Catholic priest for many years and now is an author and teacher of spirituality from his base in Colorado. Tom said, “Ask him about the line that I’ve repeated—and I’m sure lots of others have as well. Ram Dass says, ‘We’re all just walking each other home.’ Ask him to talk about that line.’”

When reading your new book, Tom’s question jumped out at me because one of the first sub-chapters is called “The Road Home.” So, please, talk about what you mean in this metaphor.

RAM DASS: Well, “home” is the one. It’s God. When I went into psychedelics, I had an experience where I felt everything being stripped away from my self. I was in my heart, my spiritual heart. All I could say was: “I’m home. I’m home. I’m home inside.”

Then, when I went to India, my guru looked at me with unconditional love. And I remember that as: “I’m home. I’m home. I’m home.”

We all spend so much time living in this outer world, then we encounter things that force us into our inner world. The inner world is what I consider to be home.

In “walking each other home,” I’m talking about how we as individuals—individual persons or individual countries with all of the separation that we experience—through moving toward inner consciousness, can become one. That’s a shift in consciousness. If we can find a way to walk each other home, we could reach a point where there is no more conflict between egos and nations.
The Ram Dass interview: Smiling as he teaches about 'Polishing the Mirror' - Explore

It appears as though Dass advocates LSD use as a way of "finding" one's inner consciousness, which is how he found his. Alpert is one of those non-associated religious spiritualists who advocates burying one's head in the sand of inner consciousness, which is nothing more than a hiding place. The entire interview is worth a read. Dass sounds like a guy who does all he can to avoid the real world by pretending it's all good inside.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488635 wrote:

But how far does that take us?Values are myths. LarsMac;1488635 wrote: Are we all simply squirming little animals with some awareness of our surroundingsTrue enlightenment isn't as pretty as we wish it was, is it?LarsMac;1488635 wrote: or do we have something more to offer the universe as a whole?"offer the universe"? The universe is the expansion of space and time and a very haphazard thing.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488795 wrote: I lean towards the Buddhist idea, myself. So then the question, is it possible that the Universe can be self-aware? Could we even conceive of what that would mean?

And the other part of that, is there such a thing as collective consciousness?

Some people seem to think so.If we define consciousness as awareness of fact-based knowledge then collective-consciousness seems plausible as opposed to this inner-consciousness which is a floating idea described differently by the various gurus who sell it in books in order to make money so they can retire in places like Maui. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem selling snake oil books as long as they're labeled honestly.

Most of these gurus probably had some traumatic experiences that drove them to their hiding places and then became lost in their fantasy. They remained there willfully when they figured out they could actually sell the fantasy to others who had been likewise traumatized and needed advice on where to hide - I mean - deal with the unavoidable trauma that life is in reality. No different than any other cult fantasy.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Smaug
Posts: 1599
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:44 am

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Smaug »

LarsMac;1488834 wrote: Well, I think that for me to be completely satisfied, I would have to hear directly from the Universe that, not only it is self aware, but even aware of humble little old me.

Yup. That would do it.

Barring that, I suppose I will have to satisfy myself with pure speculation.

As far as evidence that might support the notion, most of it probably would look more comfortable to you in Smaug's "Weird and Wacky" thread.


In our lifetime, and in this world/universe, all we'll ever have is speculation, intuition and instinct, especially on concepts such as 'is the universe aware'? I sometimes hear from this person or that, the phrase "the universe will provide", and I believe that sometimes it does. As to whether this is pure happenstance, or some form of awareness to our 'need', then I think we'll struggle to answer that particular question. What definitive evidence can there ever be?

As for 'The Weird and the Wacky', it's ' semi-serious' side is no more or less valid than anything else unproveable under discussion. Not meant to be taken too seriously though. I like to explore some 'off the beaten track' stuff, both amusing and semi-serious;- it makes a break from some of the 'heavier' topics under discussion! So please don't 'knock it' Lars; I'm not Pahu, and I can accept a counter-argument without rancour if it's backed with hard fact, or a telling insight.
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Smaug;1488842 wrote: In our lifetime, and in this world/universe, all we'll ever have is speculation, intuition and instinct, especially on concepts such as 'is the universe aware'? I sometimes hear from this person or that, the phrase "the universe will provide", and I believe that sometimes it does. As to whether this is pure happenstance, or some form of awareness to our 'need', then I think we'll struggle to answer that particular question. What definitive evidence can there ever be?

As for 'The Weird and the Wacky', it's ' semi-serious' side is no more or less valid than anything else unproveable under discussion. Not meant to be taken too seriously though. I like to explore some 'off the beaten track' stuff, both amusing and semi-serious;- it makes a break from some of the 'heavier' topics under discussion! So please don't 'knock it' Lars; I'm not Pahu, and I can accept a counter-argument without rancour if it's backed with hard fact, or a telling insight.


I think you may take things far too seriously. What I wrote was in no wise meant to denigrate you postings, or your thread. I have found some of it very fascinating. There is a lot of things we find in the Universe that are far beyond human ken. And without speculation and wonder, the place would be very boring, IMHO.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15916
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Bryn Mawr »

LarsMac;1488833 wrote: From most of what I have read on the subject, "within you" seems to be the proper translation. The later translators determined that Jesus would not use the spiritual context that is implied by this translation, so he must have actually said something else.

One study I found interesting:

http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol12No2/HV12N2Ramelli.pdf



It has been suggested that the man who would be known as Jesus once studied the teachings of the Buddha before he began his ministry.

Much of what he preached is very compatible with Buddhist beliefs.

I've even heard it suggested that Gautama Siddhartha and Jesus of Nazareth were incarnations of the same teacher. Of course, that gets pretty far out for most people raised in the Judeo-Christian realm.


A very well argued case that would be difficult to discount.

It would not surprise me if Jesus was aware of Buddhist teachings and He could well have studied them in detail but when you get to conflating the two teachers it goes beyond mortal ken.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr;1488851 wrote: when you get to conflating the two teachers it goes beyond mortal ken.
well... technically, only for half the conflation.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488839 wrote: If we define consciousness as awareness of fact-based knowledge then collective-consciousness seems plausible as opposed to this inner-consciousness which is a floating idea described differently by the various gurus who sell it in books in order to make money so they can retire in places like Maui. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem selling snake oil books as long as they're labeled honestly.

Most of these gurus probably had some traumatic experiences that drove them to their hiding places and then became lost in their fantasy. They remained there willfully when they figured out they could actually sell the fantasy to others who had been likewise traumatized and needed advice on where to hide - I mean - deal with the unavoidable trauma that life is in reality. No different than any other cult fantasy.


A lot of people have decided that they have the inside track on how the universe works. Some of them are pretty smart, and probably have a clue. Some are just plain bonkers.

I've read and listened to a lot of them over the years. Even the lunatics can demonstrate wisdom, now and again.

I don't even pretend to know what kind of stuff triggers them. I just listen, or read, and see where they take me. And if they give people something meaningful to them, and don't rob the world of breathable air, the what's the difference?
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
Smaug
Posts: 1599
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:44 am

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Smaug »

LarsMac;1488850 wrote: I think you may take things far too seriously. What I wrote was in no wise meant to denigrate you postings, or your thread. I have found some of it very fascinating. There is a lot of things we find in the Universe that are far beyond human ken. And without speculation and wonder, the place would be very boring, IMHO.


Fair enough, Lars. I did wonder though, so I thought I'd enquire. I'm glad you find some of the topics interesting! The universe (and indeed the world we live in) is dotted with intriguing and puzzling legends, phenomena and artifacts, many of which have no satisfactory, or even rational, explanation. It would indeed be boring if it was not so.

Thanks for your honest and kindly appraisal, buddy.:-6
" To finish first, first you have to finish!" Rick Mears. 4x Winner Indy 500. 3x Indycar National Champion.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488856 wrote: A lot of people have decided that they have the inside track on how the universe works.People who make it their life's work observe the Universe and report their findings. Those findings are peer reviewed and a generally well informed consensus is formed. The observations are indisputable, the theories are what some challenge. That's fine, it's how science works in order to inform us of what is learned. We then, as individuals, can therefore understand our Universe a bit better and reach logical decisions based off the information. LarsMac;1488856 wrote: Some of them are pretty smart, and probably have a clue. Some are just plain bonkers.The dividing line between the two are what's known and what's speculation. One thing is for sure, and that is that people who have not done the amount of research into actually observing the Universe, but want to create philosophies about it are the ones who would qualify as some of those in the "bonkers" category. I don't care how much they smile when they say what they say.

LarsMac;1488856 wrote: I've read and listened to a lot of them over the years. Even the lunatics can demonstrate wisdom, now and again."Wisdom" has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Knowledge derived from observing the observable universe is where key lies.

LarsMac;1488856 wrote: I don't even pretend to know what kind of stuff triggers them. I just listen, or read, and see where they take me.Being swayed by every self-appointed LSD taking sage is rather hazardous. LarsMac;1488856 wrote: And if they give people something meaningful to them, and don't rob the world of breathable air, the what's the difference?This appears to contradict the earlier statement regarding what we might add to the Universe. No?

And so when the kids don't want to go to school or a politician says that God told him/her to deprive people different than themselves of equal rights, don't complain, because, after all, it's not robbing the world of breathable air.

Yes, it's far better to hide "within" ourselves with all kinds of feel good thoughts than it is to actively participate in life armed with fact based knowledge which is only available outside the spiritual heart.

With self-awareness comes pain, which comes from knowledge, which comes from this over-sized brain that has evolved within the species. Life is daunting, dangerous and most of all, senseless. We, as a species, are destructive and careless, and when we add a sense of laziness and apathy by attempting to ignore what is happening by curling up and calling that spiritual awakening, well, that's just plain crazy.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Somehow, I knew you would end up here, even before I responded in the first place. I would suggest that you avoid philosophical discussions. You're really not much fun there.

Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

Time to turn inward?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488879 wrote: Time to turn inward?


Nah, man. It's all out there.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

It was you who brought Ram Dass and the other spiritualists into the discussion, which is what I focused on, not them and not you. Perhaps you need to calm down because you appear to be felling attacked. You weren't. Participating in these discussions can be difficult. But since your inner voice told you before hand what the conclusion was going to be, why did you, firstly join in, and then continue to boot?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488882 wrote: It was you who brought Ram Dass and the other spiritualists into the discussion, which is what I focused on, not them and not you. Perhaps you need to calm down because you appear to be felling attacked. You weren't. Participating in these discussions can be difficult. But since your inner voice told you before hand what the conclusion was going to be, why did you, firstly join in, and then continue to boot?


Just to see where it goes. Why else do you follow a path?

Besides, I just said you were no fun in philosophical discussion, because you fall too readily back to your absolute. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

As for Ram Dass, I just quoted him. Do you always dismiss anything said by folks whose lifestyle you don't like or understand?
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488887 wrote: Just to see where it goes. Why else do you follow a path?And when it doesn't lead to a nice preconceived place?

LarsMac;1488887 wrote: Besides, I just said you were no fun in philosophical discussion, because you fall too readily back to your absolute. You mean promoting fact-based dialogue instead of squirming around in unsupported mush? LarsMac;1488887 wrote: Didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Seriously, dude, you can't hurt my feelings. You're trying to make this about me. Won't work.

LarsMac;1488887 wrote: As for Ram Dass, I just quoted him. Do you always dismiss anything said by folks whose lifestyle you don't like or understand?I didn't dismiss anything, what I did was do 5 minutes of research and expose a fraud.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
AnneBoleyn
Posts: 6632
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by AnneBoleyn »

Never cared for Ram Dass. Can't remember why.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

AnneBoleyn;1488892 wrote: Never cared for Ram Dass. Can't remember why.


He's pretty squishy.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1488890 wrote: And when it doesn't lead to a nice preconceived place?

You mean promoting fact-based dialogue instead of squirming around in unsupported mush? Seriously, dude, you can't hurt my feelings. You're trying to make this about me. Won't work.

I didn't dismiss anything, what I did was do 5 minutes of research and expose a fraud.


I always thought rolling around in the mush was a good way to learn about people and the universe.

Besides, only you can make this about you.

"I don't know what's the matter with people: they don't learn by understanding; they learn by some other way - by rote, or something. Their knowledge is so fragile!" - R Feynman
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1488904 wrote: He's pretty squishy.Squishy? More like brain dead. He reminds me of TD.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

I've never heard of Ram Dass. I couldn't pin him to a century.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by Ahso! »

spot;1488911 wrote: I've never heard of Ram Dass. I couldn't pin him to a century.I left a link to an interview earlier in the thread.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by spot »

Yes, I could find out - I was noting that I'd never heard of him before seeing this thread, that's all.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

The Kingdom of Heaven is within

Post by LarsMac »

spot;1488913 wrote: Yes, I could find out - I was noting that I'd never heard of him before seeing this thread, that's all.


He was once Richard Alpert, an associate of Timothy Leary at Harvard and followed Leary into the Psychedelic experiments in the 60s. Later, he tripped off to India to find check out the mystic Gurus of the day. When he returned to the States he abandoned his old identity, and took on a new persona.

Some fascinating stuff, has come out of his head, IMHO, though I don't really follow all the mystic stuff, that much. Some of us still have to mow the grass, and paint the fences.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir

Return to “Christianity”