Matthew 12:40

Discuss the Christian Faith.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days as well as a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

User avatar
jones jones
Posts: 6601
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:30 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by jones jones »

As an atheist, my first thought was to answer: "Why?" However on second thoughts I decided to give you my answer.

Based on what Luke 23:54-24:1 said ie: ... It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

24 ... On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb and it was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

Jesus’ wife Mary and the women who had come with him from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

Also at the time those who heard Jesus say “three days and three nights” in Matt. 12:40 probably didn't properly understand a full 72 hours.

Anyway, what does it matter when the prophet Jesus allegedly rose from the dead? Sunday or Monday … who cares? He wasn’t really dead.
"…I hate how I don’t feel real enough unless people are watching." — Chuck Palahniuk, Invisible Monsters
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by gmc »

As an atheist my first thought was wonder if he knows matthew didn't actually write the gospel that bears his name. Then I thought why bother if he was that interested he would have done his own research into biblical history.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

I should also add: "...and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language."
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Matthew 12:40

Post by LarsMac »

rstrats;1456094 wrote: I should also add: "...and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language."


Of course, the problem begins with the idea that Jesus was speaking in (probably) Aramaic, the common tongue of the region at the time. The verses in Matthew were written in Greek some years after the event, and then we are reading an English translation, from centuries later, done by "learned scholars".

I read somewhere that the statement was more like "the bowels of the earth" rather than "heart...", but the translators were concerned that such language would offend the faithful.

As for the "three days and three nights", that seems fairly straightforward.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Matthew 12:40

Post by LarsMac »

Good luck with that.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

jones jones,

re: "Anyway, what does it matter when the prophet Jesus allegedly rose from the dead? Sunday or Monday … who cares?"

One group who cares would be those who use a first day of the week resurrection for justifying the change of observance from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week.
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6447
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by FourPart »

I don't even see the 'Rising From The Dead' as being anything miraculous anyway.

It's not uncommon these days to come across people who suffer some severe trauma, go into a coma & then come around a week or so later, just feeling a bit bruised & disorientated.

Although in Christ's time survival of such trauma would be less likely, but certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

The Crucifixion story is a "MIDRASH" It is not a play by play account of what actually happened. Yes Jesus was crucified but for subversive activities or if you will treason. In the same way the birth stories are midrash (With the ancient meaning). Of course Jesus was born though some would question that. I tend to go with the historians.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Ted,

re: " I tend to go with the historians."





Do those historians say that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language of the period?
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

It is the language of the day. One must keep in mind that these people wrote as best they could understand given their limited knowledge base and their conceptualization ability. Jesus himself it would appear thought the end was very near. He told some of his disciples that some would not die before the end and would see the Lord coming in the clouds. We have to remember these folks had limited knowledge and were using, compared to now a primitive language with a primitive conceptualization ability. They wrote and understood as best they could.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Ted,

re: "It is the language of the day."



So what examples do you have in order to legitimately assert that it was common to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

Most folks write in the language of their own day. Is it an interpretation you are looking for?
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Ted,

re: "Is it an interpretation you are looking for?"

There are some 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection believers who try to explain the missing night time of Matthew 12:40 by sayiing that the verse is using common Jewish idiomatic language. If it was common, there would have to be examples in order to legitimately make that assertion. I am simply asking them to provide some of those examples - i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

Was it three days? That is a traditional way of ancient writing. Perhaps it was 3 weeks or 3 months. Generally numbers were used to present a short time or a long time such as Methuselah living 900+ YEARS. hE LIVED TO A RIPE OLD AGE. (Scholarly studies. like Crossan, Borg, professors at the Vancouver School of Theology._)
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6447
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by FourPart »

I always thought a 'Day' was classed as 24 hours. Or are we now discovering a new miracle whereby all these Days (of 12 hours duration, I suppose) passed with no Night between them?
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6447
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by FourPart »

Ted;1499463 wrote: Was it three days? That is a traditional way of ancient writing. Perhaps it was 3 weeks or 3 months. Generally numbers were used to present a short time or a long time such as Methuselah living 900+ YEARS. hE LIVED TO A RIPE OLD AGE. (Scholarly studies. like Crossan, Borg, professors at the Vancouver School of Theology._)
If you consider months to mean years (which would make for more realistic ages) then, by the ages of the Generations, then the Creation would probably only have taken place less than 1000 years B.C. Even more ridiculous than using the fullness of the years.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

In the ancient style of writing numbers were not necessarily intended to be taken literally They were used to show, say time, now or later or even later.. That is how it was done. Literal reading is a joke as it asks us to believe the absurd. Yes there are a few historical facts in the Bible and the stories were meant to convey messages. Myth=a story used to present a truth. Legend is a story that is based on some historical fact but of course embellished etc.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

If one is to understand the ancient writings one has to do a lot of research and thus gain some knowledge of what they are talking about. That is not too be critical to any one that is simply the way it is. Reading the Bible literally leads one to all kind of absurdities.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

When it comes to the theology of the Risen Christ that too needs some understanding. Was a resuscitated corps walking around. Of course not but that is not to deny what was an is intended by that story which is a midrash.
Ted
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:05 pm

Matthew 12:40

Post by Ted »

My reference to ":word games" is rather simple. I was not aware that I was writing a legal document or affidavit to be made a legal document. Thus I used simple words that most (most) people understand.. One should study the "historical method" of reading and understanding historical events. It is not an exact science. It is based on probability.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Someone new looking in may know of examples.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language. I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

What puzzles me is your choice of where to ask.

This website is populated by users for whom reeding is their personal equivalent of Rocket Science, who are barely aware that other languages exist, who have never doubted for a moment that God wrote the King James Bible and who know in their bones that an unjustified opinion is worth more than a page of relevant facts any day of the week so long as it agrees with their own prejudices.

We are not a gathering of Ancient Near East academics. Even those who register here to talk with us are not ever Ancient Near East academics.

The other delusion you may be operating under is that ForumGarden exists, like a wall in a run-down urban waste ground, as a suitable location for fly-posting in order to get a message seen by passers-by. It is not. ForumGarden is a community run much along the lines of a recovery drop-in center for practicing meth addicts and the talentless graffiti you see around you is all our own work apart from the "I Will Survive" mural in the rest room which is copyright Gloria Gaynor 1978.

I hope this explanation has been useful.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

Although you didn't address your post to anyone, I think it may be intended for me.



re: "What puzzles me is your choice of where to ask."

The "Religions & Beliefs - Christianity" category seemed like the most appropriate forum.

BTW, are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

rstrats;1508713 wrote: BTW, are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?I'm baffled anyone has ever thought the crucifixion was on the day after the Passover. It makes no liturgical sense, it makes no symbolic sense, it abandons any concept of sacrifice, it's totally corrupt.

Obviously the sacrificial lamb is slaughtered before the onset of the High Sabbath, or Passover Night. That, on the year of the crucifixion, is what we in the West refer to as Wednesday prior to dusk. The Lamb of God is then entombed for three days, what we in the West refer to as the daylight hours of Thursday, Friday and Saturday, and three nights, what we in the West refer to as Wednesday night, Thursday night and Friday night. The open tomb and the Gardener are found before dawn on Easter Sunday, i.e. after rising from the tomb once the Sabbath has been completed at dusk on Saturday and Jonah's prefiguring three days and three nights have been accomplished. Jesus at that point has performed all of God's ritual requirements of Messiah and can bring in the End Times which was his intention from the beginning. It's such a blatant attempt at magic that Frazer's Golden Bough ought to have had an entire chapter devoted to gods voluntarily dying. Oh, wait. It did.

I'm sure there's books about this.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

re: "I'm sure there's books about this."

What is the "this" that you think I am asking about?
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

rstrats;1508717 wrote: spot,

re: "I'm sure there's books about this."

What is the "this" that you think I am asking about?The day of the week that the crucifixion happened.



I didn't know you were asking for a book, I merely said the suggestion I posted can't be original.

There's something in the back of my mind if I focus on it. The Passover Plot. I'll have to look up who wrote it though.

Hugh J. Schonfield in The Passover Plot.

And quite possibly Professor Salibi, particularly Who Was Jesus?: Conspiracy in Jerusalem, but I'm not sure what his timetable was.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

re: "The day of the week that the crucifixion happened."

That is incorrect.

1. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights.

2. There are some who believe in a 6th day of the week crucifixion/first day of the week resurrection.

3. Some of those also think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 night times to be involved.

5. To reconcile this lack of a 3rd night, some of those folks say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic/figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. . I am simply asking for examples to support that commonality assertion; i.e., instances from the 1st century or before where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. If it was a common practice, there would have to be examples to legitimately say that it was common.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

rstrats;1508721 wrote: 6. . I am simply asking for examples to support that commonality assertion; i.e., instances from the 1st century or before where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred. If it was a common practice, there would have to be examples to legitimately say that it was common.


And you've spent three years of your life trawling random Internet forums asking for this specific thing?

I have a solution for you.

1. Register on an appropriate undergraduate study course. The Open University has several, MIT run a few fully-online modules, neither are picky when it comes to qualifications.

2. Wait a term or so until something relevant to your question comes along.

3. Ask your tutor.

Your tutor will be fully qualified and will know the sources you need, and she'll be happy to lead you to them while asking for an essay on what you discover, or she will tell you from a well-informed position that she knows of no such instance, at which point you can crow and ask why it's erroneously held to be a common colloquialism.

Inviting a response in ForumGarden is non-productive. How do I know that? Because you've been doing it repetitively for three years and been given nothing in return.

Ask where informed people are being paid to help you toward your goal.

We do not know the answer, and you're sure as hell not going to tell us what it is either.

As for my being incorrect, you asked "BTW, are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?" and I responded quoting that question, ending "I'm sure there's books about this." The "this" was about "The day of the week that the crucifixion happened."
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

re: "And you've spent three years of your life trawling random Internet forums asking for this specific thing?"

Yes, and it's been many more years than that. I don't know why that distresses you so much.



re: "Inviting a response in ForumGarden is non-productive...you've been doing it repetitively for three years and been given nothing in return."

Yes, so far that has been the case. But perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.



re: "We do not know the answer, and you're ...not going to tell us what it is either."

That's becaise I don't know the answer. That's why I started this topic - to see if there is one.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

Okay, let's try digging a bit.

I focus on "ever used in the first century or before". I presume - don't look at me, I have no idea, I'm asking - I presume that outside of the Bible there are few instances of Hebrew texts to work from, and that since it's Hebrew colloquial usage we're discussing then that makes for a limitation. I may, of course, be mistaken. Maybe there are thousands of textual instances outside of the Bible - you tell me.

The crucifixion took place in Aramaic and then got written originally, and transmitted in all sources thereafter, in Greek? And you're still trying to dredge for Hebrew colloquialisms underneath that layering?

My suggestion here is that none of the Bible was written / crystallized on scrolls / taken out from the oral tradition into written form before the return from Babylonian exile, as described in Nehemiah and Ezra, when Ezra's scribes had to bring various traditions into some form of coherent order. In Hebrew, naturally. Some of what they wrote between then and 72CE didn't become canonical so that's a bible-related potential source and it will all be in Do tell me if that's bogus unacceptable nonsense.

Where can you look for non-Bible Hebrew texts before 100CE? Even that Egyptian chap, Philo, was writing in Greek. And Josephus didn't write in Hebrew either. Where are these texts that might carry colloquialisms from Hebrew usage? Presumably the whole of the Talmud, in its written sourced form, dates from after the fall of Jerusalem.

So, once we have them you can check their content. I don't know of any.

Which leaves the Bible, and I'd put money on the single webpage at Matthew 12:40 - for just as JONAH... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary referencing every single Bible verse which carries a day-and-night reference. I take it you know all those. I take it that none of them "absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights"? You'd not be on this quest if any did. When you say "that's right", tell me whether that's your opinion or whether that's generally accepted to be true.

I need an answer there before I think further.

I'll ask one other question - why have you never had a satisfactory conversation with an academically unimpeachable authority?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

You'll have seen Was Yeshua the Messiah Really in the Grave for Three Days and Three Nights? which has related examples within the period you specify.

I think perhaps you might need to explain why none of these fall within your very exact wording - "when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights". Why are you imposing that restriction? What implication does it carry for you?
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

re: " Maybe there are thousands of textual instances outside of the Bible - you tell me."

If I knew of any I wouldn't have started this topic.



re: "The crucifixion took place in Aramaic and then got written originally, and transmitted in all sources thereafter, in Greek?"

Are you asking if the crucifixion was originally written about in Aramic?



re: "And you're still trying to dredge for Hebrew colloquialisms underneath that layering?"

I'm simply dredging for examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?



re: " it will all be in Do tell me if that's bogus unacceptable nonsense."

I don't have the $260 three volume set so I have no idea if what's in it is unacceptable. Since you apparently do have a set, on what page/s does it show examples where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?





re: "...Matthew 12:40 - for just as JONAH... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary referencing every single Bible verse which carries a day-and-night reference. I take it you know all those. I take it that none of them "absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights"? When you say 'that's right', tell me whether that's your opinion or whether that's generally accepted to be true."

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. None of them preclude at least a portion of each daytime and at least a portion of each night time.



re: " I need an answer there before I think further."

No need to do that. Either you know of examples or you don't. And you said that you don't know of any.



re: "...why have you never had a satisfactory conversation with an academically unimpeachable authority?"

I haven't knowingly come across one who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the missing night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.



re: "You'll have seen Was Yeshua the Messiah Really in the Grave for Three Days and Three Nights? which has related examples within the period you specify."

But none that show where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.



re: "I think perhaps you might need to explain why none of these fall within your very exact wording - 'when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights'".

Simply because they don't. If you think they do, how about showing how they do?



re: "Why are you imposing that restriction?"

Because that is the crux of the issue. If somebody who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week tries to explain the missing 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common colloquial language, then they must know of other examples in order to legitimately say that it was common usage.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

rstrats;1508815 wrote: Are you asking if the crucifixion was originally written about in Aramic? No, I was asking whether you agree that the Gospels depict Jesus habitually speaking Aramaic, but that the Gospels were all written from the beginning in Greek. Never mind, let's focus on what you're bothered by.





"I think perhaps you might need to explain why none of these fall within your very exact wording - 'when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights'".

Simply because they don't. If you think they do, how about showing how they do?

re: "Why are you imposing that restriction?"

Because that is the crux of the issue. If somebody who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week tries to explain the missing 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was using common colloquial language, then they must know of other examples in order to legitimately say that it was common usage.


Okay. The obvious candidate text, Esther 4:16 to 5:1.

Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my attendants will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish.”

So Mordecai went away and carried out all of Esther’s instructions.

On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king’s hall.



That's this day, the second day and the third day, the "come today to a banquet" day. Esther was only going to go ("When this is done") to the king after three days and three nights, after the fasting was completed. The third night cannot have started when she goes to the king, because she goes to the king "on the third day".

When you tell me why it doesn't qualify I'll understand the puzzle you've set. So far I haven't, because you've refused to explain why apparently obvious instances like this don't fit your wording.
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

re: "Okay. The obvious candidate text, Esther 4:16 to 5:1.

Assuming "three days, night or day" is the same thing as "three nights and three days", I don't see the problem. There is nothing in the account that prevents fasting for at least a part of three night times and at least a part of three daytimes.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 39023
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

Matthew 12:40

Post by spot »

rstrats;1508815 wrote: I don't have the $260 three volume setI don't either, I was merely indicating that a source for what books didn't make it into the Bible from Ezra's priestly contingent exists and can be checked. I'd expect it to be online and searchable in an academic setting but I'd have to dig to find where that resource is, displaying the Amazon link was far quicker.





rstrats;1508981 wrote: There is nothing in the account [Esther 4:16 to 5:1] that prevents fasting for at least a part of three night times and at least a part of three daytimes.What you're dealing with is a consequence of there being no "Day Zero" in this mode of counting. Going forward from today, tomorrow is the second day and the day after is the third day. Going backward, yesterday is one day ago and the day before is two days ago. As you can see there's no symmetry, and the count of nights differs.

The days in sequence are counted as ... -5 -4 -3 -2 YESTERDAY=-1 TODAY=1 TOMORROW=2 3 4 5 ... and the same problem exists when crossing from BCE to CE, there is no Year Zero separating 1BCE from 1CE.

Sketch it on a timeline, try again. There is no possible way of getting any part of a third night to become involved in the Esther account. Draw it and see. If you're not convinced I'm quite happy to sketch it graphically in a post here, I'm sure I can draw to that extent.

The exact word sequence in the Esther verse is as follows. Strong's Concordance numbers (easier to type than Hebrew lettering and more easily quoted) are

7969 three

3117 sunrise to sunset period (or part, if what we're inquiring about is true)

9007 and; also

3915 night

Here's a sequential breakdown and the web references for the appropriate chapters.

THE PAST, leading into

The previous night, not possibly part of the count.

Part of one day, before the moment when Esther makes her announcement

Esther orders the fast after which she will go to the King, beginning the count

The remainder of the first day of the fast, counted as One Day

One Night

The second day of the fast, counted as One Day

A Second Night

The first part of the third day of the fast, counted as One Day

The fast is complete after which Esther goes to the King

The remainder of the third day

A Third Night, none of which can be part of the period in question

leading into THE FUTURE

That's a fasting period of two part days, plus one entire day and two entire nights, referred to in http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testam ... her/4.html as the colloquial "three days, night or day" (KJV). Perhaps explicit reference to "night or day" in the English translation is that endurance fasting might otherwise be understood by the English to end at sunset, Ramadan being an obvious example. But I'm guessing, and maybe few English people in the time of King James were familiar with Ramadan. The original Hebrew definitely says "three day and night".

For comparison, the passage in Jonah referred to in the Gospels is http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/jonah/1.html. You earlier refer to people claiming "the Messiah was employing common figure of speech". He wasn't, he was very deliberately quoting exactly from the book of Jonah and his informed hearers would have understood his reference as a Messianic prophesy he intended to fulfill. The issue isn't whether Jesus is shown using a common figure of speech, it's whether the Hebrew author of Jonah was using a common Hebrew figure of speech.

You'll see that the same Strong's Concordance number prefix 9007, translated into English as either "and" or "also" but never as "or", connects day and night in both Esther and Jonah. Trusting the English to convey the sense is capable of creating blind alleys when you focus down into something so specific as colloquialisms.





Here's a second instance of a mismatch between reality and colloquial counting before mathematical precision became a significant issue:

The exact word sequence exists in 1 Samuel 3):12,13 as in the Jonah passage and is exactly translated into the Greek of Matthew 12:40. Strong's Concordance numbers (easier to type than Hebrew lettering and more easily quoted) are

7969 three

3117 sunrise to sunset period (or part, if what we're inquiring about is true)

9007 and; also

7969 three

3915 night

We're told the discarded servant "had eaten no bread, nor drunk water, three days and three nights" after his troop "left me because three days ago I fell sick".

THE PAST, leading into

Three days ago

The earlier part of one day, before the moment when he falls sick

He falls sick, which begins the count. He is subsequently, after an unspecified period, abandoned by the troop.

The remainder of the first day of sickness, counted as One Day

One Night

Two days ago, counted as One Day

A Second Night

One day ago, counted as One Day

A Third Night

The first part of today, counted as One Day

He's brought round with food and water and says he fell sick three days ago.

leading into THE FUTURE

That use of "three days and three nights" includes two part-days and two full days, and three full nights.

Counting part-days as days, that's an arithmetic period of four days and three nights, referred to by the same colloquialism "three days and three nights".
Nullius in verba|||||||||||
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game!
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

spot,

re: "When you tell me why it [ Esther 4:16 to 5:1.] doesn't qualify I'll understand the puzzle you've set."

Possibility:

Fast began during the night time of the first calendar day and continued through the daytime. This would account for night time 1 and daytime 1.

Fast continued through the night time of the next calendar day and continued through the daytime. This would account for calendar day 2 and night time 2 and daytime 2.

Fast continued through the night time of the next calendar day and continued into the daytime. This would account for the third calendar day and night time 3 and at least part of daytime 3.

Nothing in the story precludes at least a portion of each one of 3 night times and at least a portion of each one of 3 daytimes.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Someone new looking in may know of examples.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Perhaps a further wording of the topic will make it more clear.



1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I am simply asking anyone who thinks it was common usage of the period, to provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

Since it's been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Matthew 12:40

Post by LarsMac »

You forget that he was taken into the underground prison Thursday night. He rose on Sunday. 3 nights, 3 Days.

I don't see the problem.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

LarsMac,

re: "You forget that he was taken into the underground prison Thursday night. He rose on Sunday. 3 nights, 3 Days. I don't see the problem."

That would be an issue for a different topic. This one is really directed to those who think the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, or at the earliest to the moment when the Messiah's spirit left His body.

BTW, counting Thursday night as one of the nights would mean that 4 nights would be involved, i.e., Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night and Sunday night.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Matthew 12:40

Post by LarsMac »

rstrats;1519703 wrote: LarsMac,

re: "You forget that he was taken into the underground prison Thursday night. He rose on Sunday. 3 nights, 3 Days. I don't see the problem."

That would be an issue for a different topic. This one is really directed to those who think the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, or at the earliest to the moment when the Messiah's spirit left His body.

BTW, counting Thursday night as one of the nights would mean that 4 nights would be involved, i.e., Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night and Sunday night.


Except, according to the lore, he was up and about early Sunday morning.

But apparently, most people around here don't much care about such minutiae

Do carry on.
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

LarsMac,

re: "Except, according to the lore, he was up and about early Sunday morning."

Correct, and Sunday night before Sunday morning would be the 4th night.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Matthew 12:40

Post by LarsMac »

rstrats;1519706 wrote: LarsMac,

re: "Except, according to the lore, he was up and about early Sunday morning."

Correct, and Sunday night before Sunday morning would be the 4th night.


Umm, ..., Say that, again?
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
-Susan Hattie Steinsapir
rstrats
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 7:28 am

Matthew 12:40

Post by rstrats »

LarsMac,

re: "Umm, ..., Say that, again?"

Sunday night started at sundown Saturday and lasted until sunrise Sunday morning, thus the 4th night.

Return to “Christianity”