Holy smoke, the Christian church is burning!

Discuss the Christian Faith.
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Mickiel
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Holy smoke, the Christian church is burning!

Post by Mickiel »

You ever hear of the phrase " Take it for granted?" Well I think Christians have had the historical position of being God's people for so long, they now take it for granted; and most unreligious people seem to give them that granted. Well I don't believe that Christians are God's chosen people, commonly called " The Firstfruits" in scripture, because I believe God will eventually chose everyone. These firstfruits are a people actually led by God himself, and they take nothing for granted.

The Christian church has too long been held up to their falsely claimed positions in spirituality, and I think THEIR church is burning right before their eyes! Its bad when you claim to be something that you are not, even worse when you decide to mouth off and claim that God himself endorses your group. Or has chosen you. Yet human believers have been doing that for centuries, and its finally catching up to them and their burning hell doctrine; now all their doctrines are burning.

And even while its burning, they still think its Holy Smoke!
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Mickiel
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Post by Mickiel »

One would think that Christians represent God; well that's the problem, we been thinking wrong, seriously misled by a great awesome power of deception that has used these Christian churches to envelope the earth in a giant complicated web of pure deception; religious deception, which is the worse deception. We have swallowed it hook, line and sinker; and so has Christianity. The whole world has been deceived. And its been an awesome deception, right in front of our very eyes! And most can't even see it.

The church has burnt its way into our belief system, into our consciousness, molding and shapeing how we view God and his word; his intent for this world. And this false church has used its doctrine of eternal hell fire to scare and manipulate this world; and the smoke of that heel is not even real, but that great power behind these churches has made it real in the human consciousness.
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Holy smoke, the Christian church is burning!

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

so....ummmmm.....just leave .
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Post by Mickiel »

fuzzywuzzy;1442220 wrote: so....ummmmm.....just leave .


I am not a church member, I have nothing to leave. So.... ummmmm... just understand those you read more.
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Post by Mickiel »

Burning something can destroy it, but satan wanted the church to burn in a different manner; break it down but keep it alive and simmering. He could not get to God's true church, so he took the next best thing, the shadow of the true church. He grabbed it, deceived it, and has been burning it ever since.

I think this is what Christianity really truly is; the shadow of what it could have been, if God wanted it to be that. But God did not want to be represented by Christianity; which is a deadly surprising truth! And many cannot; willnot believe this.

Its an amazing seduction!
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

where do you get this stuff from and what religion are you ?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Now you've done it fuzzy.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

:-3 sorry
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Post by Mickiel »

fuzzywuzzy;1442257 wrote: where do you get this stuff from and what religion are you ?


I am not religious, and this stuff comes from my mind.
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Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Ummm yep righto then .

Actually I take that back, you're giving Athieism a bad name.

religions by population of the world.

Christians (28%)

Muslims (22%)

Hindus (15%)

Buddhists (8.5%)

Non-religious (12%)

Other (14.5%)

How come you let all the others off? Why only pick on the Christians? Why not the Hindus?

In fact you fall into the "Non-religious" and "other" ....which together make up 26% of the worlds population . Why not pick on them?
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Post by Mickiel »

fuzzywuzzy;1442324 wrote: Ummm yep righto then .

Actually I take that back, you're giving Athieism a bad name.

religions by population of the world.

Christians (28%)

Muslims (22%)

Hindus (15%)

Buddhists (8.5%)

Non-religious (12%)

Other (14.5%)

How come you let all the others off? Why only pick on the Christians? Why not the Hindus?

In fact you fall into the "Non-religious" and "other" ....which together make up 26% of the worlds population . Why not pick on them?




Atheism gave itself a bad name, it unwisely used Theism as the last part of its name. Thats not my problem; and listen; one pick at a time, I have gotten on the others and will get on them again; I just like picking on the most powerful.
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Post by Mickiel »

Nothing has occurred in human history that God did not approve. And nothing can happen in our reality unless God approves it.

Remember that!

God gave satan this earth to deceive, and the whole earth has been deceived, Rev. 12:9. And the devil has used churches to deceive churches; and used religion to deceive the unreligious.

This evil being knows how to deceive, and keep those deceived from ever knowing it. He sears their consciousness and burns their ability to discern things spiritual.
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Post by Mickiel »

Nothing could prevail against the true church of God, but just you watch the Christian church keep burning, bit by bit.
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Post by Mickiel »

If you care to really study, without a traditional Christian or religious influence on your mind; look at the 7 churches in the book of Revelation; 6 of them were burning and are still burning, Christ was on the " Outside of them all", knocking and asking to be let in. They ALL were churches of God in deception; churches that were deceived; churches that had pastors, evangelist, leaders and members; and all 6 of them Jesus plainly stated that he had things AGAINST them! They were all complettely blind to the religious deception that gripped their consciousness, and are still blind to this day.

They cannot see their nakedness; do not even realize their church is burning.
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Post by Mickiel »

The church is burning with their doctrines of limited Attonement; they think God's salvation is a survival of the fittest program, where only those worthy will make it. They think Jesus died for only believers and " good people", not knowing and understanding that he died for every human, so that every human would be with God in the end of this age. They think the salvation of all is blasphemy and that God will allow many of his children to be aborted.

Their view of salvation is burnt.
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Post by Mickiel »

Christianity is in a puffed up state, and cannot see their own seduction; because they think themselves God's annointed; that is why they can see eternal hell better than they can see God's will.
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Post by sheep »

I for one am very sad by the fact that Jesus has been so poorly represented and is still shamefully claimed to be represented by people that both don't practice his teachings and know absolutely nothing about what it means to be a real Christian.

I am very glad that many stand in opposition to the false people that represent themselves as Christians, but unfortunately most of them will fail to hear the reproof that is being given because while those who stand in opposition are correct to oppose, they fail to help the deceived see what they are blind to.

Telling someone they are wrong does not help them understand how they are wrong and while Christianity is in total err, Jesus was loved and embraced by the common people: it was the religious and those in Government that stood against Jesus.

So what caused the problem to create the abhorrence known today as the Christian church? It was the embracing of Paul and his teachings. Jesus was trying to enlighten his followers to be committed to the practice of his teachings, while Paul was a common Pharisee who was all about intellectual dogmas and thus the church today, as followers of Paul, have created a belief system which is predicated upon intellectual acceptance of believed facts: rather then upon the changing of ones practices; "love your enemies" is a nice philosophy, but if one is not committed to practicing it: it is an empty ideology.
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Post by Mickiel »

sheep;1450979 wrote: I for one am very sad by the fact that Jesus has been so poorly represented and is still shamefully claimed to be represented by people that both don't practice his teachings and know absolutely nothing about what it means to be a real Christian.

I am very glad that many stand in opposition to the false people that represent themselves as Christians, but unfortunately most of them will fail to hear the reproof that is being given because while those who stand in opposition are correct to oppose, they fail to help the deceived see what they are blind to.

Telling someone they are wrong does not help them understand how they are wrong and while Christianity is in total err, Jesus was loved and embraced by the common people: it was the religious and those in Government that stood against Jesus.

So what caused the problem to create the abhorrence known today as the Christian church? It was the embracing of Paul and his teachings. Jesus was trying to enlighten his followers to be committed to the practice of his teachings, while Paul was a common Pharisee who was all about intellectual dogmas and thus the church today, as followers of Paul, have created a belief system which is predicated upon intellectual acceptance of believed facts: rather then upon the changing of ones practices; "love your enemies" is a nice philosophy, but if one is not committed to practicing it: it is an empty ideology.




i disagree; i think what warpped Christianity was when it started wanting to get more people to join, and it let too many pagans in and enlisted their beliefs and incorporated them into Christianity.
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Post by sheep »

Mickiel;1451394 wrote: i disagree; i think what warpped Christianity was when it started wanting to get more people to join, and it let too many pagans in and enlisted their beliefs and incorporated them into Christianity.


If people lack clarity it is easy for them to stray... Paul's teachings have created the confusion that has lead the church astray from Christ.
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Post by Mickiel »

sheep;1451673 wrote: If people lack clarity it is easy for them to stray... Paul's teachings have created the confusion that has lead the church astray from Christ.


Give examples of those teachings, so I can more clearly see what's in your accusations.
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Post by sheep »

Mickiel;1451694 wrote: Give examples of those teachings, so I can more clearly see what's in your accusations.


Paul taught salvation was based upon confession, Jesus taught salvation is based upon obedience:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock...



Let's start with the contradiction here that Paul taught against Jesus' teachings.

Here is another link to a post and its arguments about how Paul taught teachings that are against the teachings of Christ: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/chris ... ple-5.html the discussion starts in the previous page of posts, with larsmac, but the 3rd post on this page starts to highlight the real issue of contention with how Paul's teachings contradict Jesus'.
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Post by LarsMac »

You base your suppositions on opinions based on centuries-old translation and interpretations of what Paul was trying to say . This comes from simply relying on the literal view, with no thought to the meaning behind the words, or any consideration for context and audience.

Has it occurred to you at all, to read the original texts, rather that depending on the translations and interpretations of others?

I am afraid it is you who are wandering blind. Careful, or the wolves will find you very tasty.
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Post by sheep »

LarsMac;1451744 wrote: You base your suppositions on opinions based on centuries-old translation and interpretations of what Paul was trying to say . This comes from simply relying on the literal view, with no thought to the meaning behind the words, or any consideration for context and audience.

Has it occurred to you at all, to read the original texts, rather that depending on the translations and interpretations of others?

I am afraid it is you who are wandering blind. Careful, or the wolves will find you very tasty.


I have actually read the Greek manuscripts on Romans 13:1-4, to make sure that Paul actually said what the English says he did and I can assure you not only did he, but the Greek is very clear on Paul's words and they are as is stated in the KJV of the bible.

Here is the Greek with the Strong's number references. Do you own research before you question what is clearly stated in the Greek and confirmed correctly by the KJV translation of those verses:

Rom 13:1 πασαG3956 ψυχηG5590 εξουσιαιςG1849 υπερεχουσαιςG5242 υποτασσεσθωG5293 ουG3756 γαρG1063 εστινG1510 εξουσιαG1849 ειG1487 μηG3361 αποG575 θεουG2316 αιG3588 δεG1161 ουσαιG1510 εξουσιαιG1849 υποG5259 τουG3588 θεουG2316 τεταγμεναιG5021 εισινG1510

Rom 13:2 ωστεG5620 οG3588 αντιτασσομενοςG498 τηG3588 εξουσιαG1849 τηG3588 τουG3588 θεουG2316 διαταγηG1296 ανθεστηκενG436 οιG3588 δεG1161 ανθεστηκοτεςG436 εαυτοιςG1438 κριμαG2917 ληψονταιG2983

Rom 13:3 οιG3588 γαρG1063 αρχοντεςG758 ουκG3756 εισινG1510 φοβοςG5401 τωνG3588 αγαθωνG18 εργωνG2041 αλλαG235 τωνG3588 κακωνG2556 θελειςG2309 δεG1161 μηG3361 φοβεισθαιG5399 τηνG3588 εξουσιανG1849 τοG3588 αγαθονG18 ποιειG4160 καιG2532 εξειςG2192 επαινονG1868 εξG1537 αυτηςG846

Rom 13:4 θεουG2316 γαρG1063 διακονοςG1249 εστινG1510 σοιG4771 ειςG1519 τοG3588 αγαθονG18 εανG1437 δεG1161 τοG3588 κακονG2556 ποιηςG4160 φοβουG5399 ουG3756 γαρG1063 εικηG1500 τηνG3588 μαχαιρανG3162 φορειG5409 θεουG2316 γαρG1063 διακονοςG1249 εστινG1510 εκδικοςG1558 ειςG1519 οργηνG3709 τωG3588 τοG3588 κακονG2556 πρασσοντιG4238

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

While I will admit that Romans 10:9-10 is not adequate in the English translation of those verses. Romans 13:1-4 though, in the KJV, very adequately describes what Paul stated in the Greek and those teachings are very clearly against the teachings of Christ.

P.S. Because of Paul's clear sanctioning of government, the church today not only allows, but condones, the actions that Governments commit: against the teachings of Christ.
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Post by Mickiel »

sheep;1451741 wrote: Paul taught salvation was based upon confession, Jesus taught salvation is based upon obedience:

.




I disagree with both of your interpretations of what both Paul and Jesus taught; Paul did not teach that salvation was based on confession, and Jesus did not teach it was based on obedience, both of those things are " Reactions to being converted", not requirements for conversion.
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Post by sheep »

Mickiel;1451814 wrote: I disagree with both of your interpretations of what both Paul and Jesus taught; Paul did not teach that salvation was based on confession, and Jesus did not teach it was based on obedience, both of those things are " Reactions to being converted", not requirements for conversion.


If you are converted you will act, if you are not you wont... Your splitting hairs as Paul did.
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Post by Mickiel »

sheep;1451829 wrote: If you are converted you will act, if you are not you wont... Your splitting hairs as Paul did.


You call it splitting hairs, I call it discernment. God has been getting the unconverted to act and do whatever he wants for years.

You don't need to be converted to be used by God. But you need discernment to understand that.
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Post by sheep »

Mickiel;1451878 wrote: You call it splitting hairs, I call it discernment. God has been getting the unconverted to act and do whatever he wants for years.

You don't need to be converted to be used by God. But you need discernment to understand that.


Somehow I am lost in this conversation. I am saying that there is no conversion without obedience: where obedience can be performed. Partial obedience is not acceptable to Jesus' teachings, as he was very clear about that in his many parables on the issue. So only total obedience is proof of true conversion... And while I agree with you that conversion is the bases of salvation, only full obedience is proof of true conversion. The unconverted do walk both for and against the teachings of Christ, but don't care about obedience to the teachings of Christ. But the truly converted only ignorantly walk against the teachings of Christ.
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Post by Mickiel »

sheep;1451941 wrote: Somehow I am lost in this conversation. I am saying that there is no conversion without obedience: where obedience can be performed. Partial obedience is not acceptable to Jesus' teachings, as he was very clear about that in his many parables on the issue. So only total obedience is proof of true conversion... And while I agree with you that conversion is the bases of salvation, only full obedience is proof of true conversion. The unconverted do walk both for and against the teachings of Christ, but don't care about obedience to the teachings of Christ. But the truly converted only ignorantly walk against the teachings of Christ.


I disagree.Let me show you how most of humanity will be converted, and their obedience will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Not before they are converted. Isaiah 45:23. Here God swears a Holy Vow that all of humanity will submit to him, he will force them to their knees and make them swear alligence to him. Now " After this is done", of course then they will obey. But they are converted without being obedient. Billions of them.

But many of Gods chosen Prophets and Apostles disobeyed him many times; but God never questioned their conversion because of their sin. Paul was truly converted, but in Romans chapter 7 he confesses that he sinned all the time. He could not help himself. So you're trying to paint a perfect obedient picture of imperfect people.
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Post by Mickiel »

The Christian church is burning from within, because its supposed to be imploding. And its destined to be blind until the end of it. The coming church of God will at first be a small group, Christianity is the worlds largest religion, its one third of humanity, it is not that coming called out small flock of God.

Its just not.
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Post by sheep »

Mickiel;1452276 wrote: I disagree.Let me show you how most of humanity will be converted, and their obedience will have absolutely nothing to do with it. Not before they are converted. Isaiah 45:23. Here God swears a Holy Vow that all of humanity will submit to him, he will force them to their knees and make them swear alligence to him. Now " After this is done", of course then they will obey. But they are converted without being obedient. Billions of them.

But many of Gods chosen Prophets and Apostles disobeyed him many times; but God never questioned their conversion because of their sin. Paul was truly converted, but in Romans chapter 7 he confesses that he sinned all the time. He could not help himself. So you're trying to paint a perfect obedient picture of imperfect people.




As much as I preach against Paul, even Paul would be offended by your interpretation of Romans 7.

If you take the time to read Romans 7, you will see in verse 5 that Paul describes his experience before his conversion: in the verses after it. Notice he states Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

If you notice Romans 8 verse 1 you see that Paul states (Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Now how do we know that Paul was not taking about his state as a follower of Christ, in verses 17-24? Simple, read them.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Continue...
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Post by sheep »

Continuation from previous post...

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul clearly describing his state before conversion here, as he states Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul taught that one had to be dead to the flesh to be alive in Christ, he was clearly making this statement in his opening statements of Romans 7:

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Husband is the flesh, and if it is dead, Paul says, we are free to marry Christ.

While Paul was not an Apostle and his teachings should absolutely not be compared to Christ's, he didn't believe and embrace most of the garbage that people do today: because of how his writings have been interpreted.
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Post by Mickiel »

sheep;1452444 wrote: Continuation from previous post...

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul clearly describing his state before conversion here, as he states Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul taught that one had to be dead to the flesh to be alive in Christ, he was clearly making this statement in his opening statements of Romans 7:

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Husband is the flesh, and if it is dead, Paul says, we are free to marry Christ.

While Paul was not an Apostle and his teachings should absolutely not be compared to Christ's, he didn't believe and embrace most of the garbage that people do today: because of how his writings have been interpreted.




I disagree, in Rom. 7:18 Paul is discussing his " Present condition", " For to will is Present with me, but how to do that which is good I find not." In verse 25 the case is closed, he's describing his present condition; 25" I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with my mind I myself SERVE, ( or am now converted), the law of God, but my body serves the law of sin. Its academic that he was both converted and sinful. Sin was the thorn in his flesh that God would not remove. And I personally believe the reason why God kept Paul in this condition, is because if he did not, he would have become too powerful.
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Post by sheep »

Mickiel;1452469 wrote: I disagree, in Rom. 7:18 Paul is discussing his " Present condition", " For to will is Present with me, but how to do that which is good I find not." In verse 25 the case is closed, he's describing his present condition; 25" I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with my mind I myself SERVE, ( or am now converted), the law of God, but my body serves the law of sin. Its academic that he was both converted and sinful. Sin was the thorn in his flesh that God would not remove. And I personally believe the reason why God kept Paul in this condition, is because if he did not, he would have become too powerful.


Okay ignore the context to hold to your beliefs, but know this: "it wasn't Paul's".

P.S. Saying you disagree doesn't mean you are right... try showing how I have taken Paul's words out of context, by depicting my errors; failure to do this, just means you want to hold to a different belief, not that your beliefs are founded upon the facts from the information on hand.
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sheep;1452478 wrote: Okay ignore the context to hold to your beliefs, but know this: "it wasn't Paul's".


I can read; it reads that Paul said he was " Presently in that condition", then verse 25 he shows he was both converted and sinful. You can say what you please, I believe what he said about himself.
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Mickiel;1452487 wrote: I can read; it reads that Paul said he was " Presently in that condition", then verse 25 he shows he was both converted and sinful. You can say what you please, I believe what he said about himself.


What about when he says: when we "were" in the flesh and how he states that there is no condemnation to those who walk "not after the flesh" and how Paul said "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..." put some context into his words...try that it might help: unfortunately not with your beliefs, but it will help you get perspective on Paul's
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sheep;1452492 wrote: What about when he says: when we "were" in the flesh and how he states that there is no condemnation to those who walk "not after the flesh" and how Paul said "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..." put some context into his words...try that it might help: unfortunately not with your beliefs, but it will help you get perspective on Paul's


Your way of seeing things cannot help me; its not for me, its for you.

Paul was actively teaching on the two natures in man in Romans Chapter 7. In vs. 15, " For that which I do, ( which means he was right then actively doing it), I allow not. For what I would, that do I not. But what I hate, that I am doing." The man was obviously teaching that a converted believer will still sin and be haunted by their fleshly desires. What you are off on, I have no ideal. But the perfect church, the sinless called out and chosen church, has yet to come; but those jokers back then were not that church.
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Mickiel, can I ask how old you are and what grade education you have completed?
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sheep;1452544 wrote: Mickiel, can I ask how old you are and what grade education you have completed?




I'll be 59 in August and I have 3 years of college and one degree from US Air School in Inventory Management, and another in counseling and one more for an Arborist. With special emphisis on Tree surgery.

So not much of an education.
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Mickiel;1452545 wrote: I'll be 59 in August and I have 3 years of college and one degree from US Air School in Inventory Management, and another in counseling and one more for an Arborist. With special emphisis on Tree surgery.

So not much of an education.


I have created a thread under the heading of http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/chris ... s-7-a.html and ask that we move this conversation there if you wanna continue to post on it.

I would have expected someone with the lack of thoroughness that you show in interpreting Paul's statements to be either very young, or almost illiterate; I think it is the shame of our education system that has caused someone to have so much schooling and yet lacks the basic thoroughness that you have shown in commenting on Paul's teachings.
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sheep;1452553 wrote: I have created a thread under the heading of http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/chris ... s-7-a.html and ask that we move this conversation there if you wanna continue to post on it.

I would have expected someone with the lack of thoroughness that you show in interpreting Paul's statements to be either very young, or almost illiterate; I think it is the shame of our education system that has caused someone to have so much schooling and yet lacks the basic thoroughness that you have shown in commenting on Paul's teachings.


Well then debate someone who's education you approve of, or who agrees with you.

Peace on you're journey.
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The pride of Christianity is swollen shut; it thinks it is God's choice people, when they are not. They have lost their first love, and are being used by a power they do not even suspect.
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Mickiel;1452558 wrote: Well then debate someone who's education you approve of, or who agrees with you.

Peace on you're journey.


I remember years ago when I first started discussing scriptures, I was always told (normally by my older peers) to put the scriptures in the context of what was being stated. All I am saying is that you cannot isolate a verse or 2 or scripture and avoid the context: which is what you are doing.
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Mickiel;1452560 wrote: The pride of Christianity is swollen shut; it thinks it is God's choice people, when they are not. They have lost their first love, and are being used by a power they do not even suspect.


I actually agree with the sentiments of your statements here, but in reading more of your posts, I think if you are honest with yourself, you will see that you want the scriptures to validate your preconceived ideas and are trying to make them read what you want them to read and therefore you are doing something that is just as bad as they are. Why not be honest and say you don't care what the scriptures say, only what you believe, as that is really the apparent truth behind your beliefs from what I have read in your posts.
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sheep;1452562 wrote: I remember years ago when I first started discussing scriptures, I was always told (normally by my older peers) to put the scriptures in the context of what was being stated. All I am saying is that you cannot isolate a verse or 2 or scripture and avoid the context: which is what you are doing.


Well when you basically insulted me , in my view, my discussions with you are finished. You don't like how I view scripture, I don't like how you do.

Its nothing we can do about that.

So I wish you well on you're journey.
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Mickiel;1452564 wrote: Well when you basically insulted me , in my view, my discussions with you are finished. You don't like how I view scripture, I don't like how you do.

Its nothing we can do about that.

So I wish you well on you're journey.


I don't blame you for the way you fail to put context into structural arguments (like Paul's): I blame your educators; sadly you are the victim of their system.

I always say: if it is not for grace, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, we drive relationships apart and it was Jesus' mission to reverse that course, through the practice of his teachings, as that is why he came. Not to abstractly save people from sin, but to actively do it: by getting them to stop sinning.

I was truly trying to gauge your age, because I would expect (my naivety there) someone younger and less educated to be doing what I see you are doing. I am not saying what I am saying to insult you: although I cannot help how you feel. Sometimes people just have not had reason to stretch their thinking, or fail to do so because they don't care about considering what others are saying about an issue, only about validating their beliefs through consensus: which is what I think you are actually trying to do.

Anyways, just be honest about what you do; claiming that Paul was stating his experience in Romans 7 was what he believed the Christian experience was about, is not Paul's belief. If one takes a little more time to study Paul's beliefs they will see that: unless they really don't care bout what Paul believed only what they do.
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sheep;1452565 wrote: I don't blame you for the way you fail to put context into structural arguments (like Paul's): I blame your educators; sadly you are the victim of their system.

I always say: if it is not for grace, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, we drive relationships apart and it was Jesus' mission to reverse that course, through the practice of his teachings, as that is why he came. Not to abstractly save people from sin, but to actively do it: by getting them to stop sinning.

I was truly trying to gauge your age, because I would expect (my naivety there) someone younger and less educated to be doing what I see you are doing. I am not saying what I am saying to insult you: although I cannot help how you feel. Sometimes people just have not had reason to stretch their thinking, or fail to do so because they don't care about considering what others are saying about an issue, only about validating their beliefs through consensus: which is what I think you are actually trying to do.

Anyways, just be honest about what you do; claiming that Paul was stating his experience in Romans 7 was what he believed the Christian experience was about, is not Paul's belief. If one takes a little more time to study Paul's beliefs they will see that: unless they really don't care bout what Paul believed only what they do.




I like my education from schools and from the Spirit visiting, and I am content with how I am learning; it is unfortunate that you don't like it .

But my education is not being based on your likes and dislikes. I don't know you, and I am not affected by that continuing.

for the second time, peace on your journey.
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Mickiel;1452560 wrote: The pride of Christianity is swollen shut; it thinks it is God's choice people, when they are not. They have lost their first love, and are being used by a power they do not even suspect.




When Jesus left the earth it was the begining of the freeze of Christianity and the melting of paganism into its ranks. The church would now become distorted and bigger in size, to eventually become a third of the earth. No longer the small flock of scripture, now a satan backed giant.
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In 6 of the 7 churches in Revelations, Jesus has serious problems with those church eras, all his churches, but he was on the outside of all 6 stages of it.

The first era of that church was early Christianity, the church at Antioch. And that was the first to be raped by satan.
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Mickiel;1452560 wrote: The pride of Christianity is swollen shut; it thinks it is God's choice people, when they are not. They have lost their first love, and are being used by a power they do not even suspect.
The Jews are God's chosen, not Christians. Christians are not a people.
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Post by sheep »

Dear Mickiel, I want to apologize for creating any bad emotion in you because of my comments. My intentions were only to have you reconsider Paul's teachings in the context that he used them in.

I would hope that one posting on this forum would be an honest individual and honesty demands that one be objective about what is being presented to them and objectivity demands that one be thorough in ones evaluation of the facts being presented to them. It is my hope that maybe next time someone objects to something that you believe, and claim as fact, that you would be more thorough, objective, and honest.
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