Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Discuss the Christian Faith.
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

This is taken from the thread http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/chris ... o-god.html and has the potential of becoming a worthwhile discussion. LarsMac;1437736 wrote: This guy gets it, I believe.

Best Explanation Of Religion I Have Ever Heard, And I'm Practically An AtheistI'll be adding other posts from the other thread for a bit too.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

....Ahso!;1438084 wrote: I don't have the sound on my box working. Would you mind explaining in your own words what it is he's saying?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...LarsMac;1438086 wrote: Basically, it was not God that came up with Heaven and Hell.

"The Church doesn't like people to grow up,..." The Church would like for us all to remain children. We need to grow up and accept responsibility for our own lives."



"our problem is not that we were born in sin, our problem is that we do not yet know how to achieve being fully human."

"The function of the Christ is not to rescue the sinners, but to empower you and to call you to be more deeply and fully human than you ever realized there was the potential within you to be."

"Maybe salvation needs to be conveyed in terms of enhancing your humanity than rescuing you from it."

I believe those were the high points.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

....Ahso!;1438117 wrote: The word "humanity" appears to mean being nice in that context rather than becoming a more knowledgeable human. That's typical of the use of "human" or "humanity" coming from a religious perspective.

What if becoming more fully human meant the need to abandon religious perspective in order to develop more humanity?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

....LarsMac;1438127 wrote: Like it or not, I don't think you and he are that far apart.

But you are trying to put words in his mouth. I don't think his words are "typical of the use of "human" or "humanity" from a religious perspective.

I see him with a far higher expectation of humanity than usual from "Men of the Cloth"

Pity you cannot actuallly listen to him, for yourself.

But you must be comfortable in your own preconceptions.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

....Ahso!;1438128 wrote: Okay. Explain to me what his expectation for humanity is.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

....LarsMac;1438145 wrote: I would only be offering my own preconceptions.



But this particular sentence from that interview caught my attention.



Through the history of Christianity - particularly the evangelical movements - Christians have felt that it is our very nature from which we need to be 'saved'. That the monster within is the tool of the Evil One to tempt us into going against the Will of God. It was that humanity, they think, that caused us to commit the first sin, and began our eternal war with God. This is the basis of the doctrines of most religions.

Instead, it seems that the Bishop thinks it is that humanity and its potential that we must strive to develop so that we can rise above the beast from which we began, and the superstitions of the Church inhibit us from doing so.

He is definitely a heretic. My kind of Christian.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...Ahso!;1438151 wrote: Define humanity, it appears that it's being used rather loosely.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...LarsMac;1438152 wrote: Well, of course it is.

My own definition: That which makes us human, both individually, and collectively. Our sense of ourselves and how we fit into the world as a species.

Your turn.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...Ahso!;1438156 wrote: You need to decide if we're discussing what you think , what the person in the video thinks or what you believe the person in the video thinks.

As for my definition of "humanity"? I'll go with this one:

hu·man·i·ty

(h)yo͞oˈmanitē/

noun

noun: humanity; plural noun: humanities

1.

the human race; human beings collectively.

"appalling crimes against humanity"

synonyms: humankind, mankind, man, people, human beings, humans, the human race, mortals;




https://www.google.com/search?client=ub ... 8&oe=utf-8
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...LarsMac;1438165 wrote: I don't know that I must be the one to make that decision. Our whole conversation is around what he said, so I would have to say we seem to be discussing what we believe his point of view to be.

It is rather obvious that we each see his opinion differently. Our differing perceptions and differing contexts tend to cloud his message.

This is probably to the detriment of both of us.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...Ahso!;1438166 wrote: It's not that we see this person's message differently, the problem is that you've said you agree with what was said in the video and I'm trying to understand what was said. I asked you to explain it to me because you said you understood it and agreed with it.

This is the difficulty that spirituality poses with humans, it assumes a lot. Words are used loosely with the assumption that others who are similarly conditioned get the meaning when definitions haven't been properly sorted out.

You assumed that the word 'humanity' was a term with a floating meaning while I chose a concrete and generally accepted one.

I'm happy to attempt to have this conversation, but we must agree on definitions.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...LarsMac;1438167 wrote: There are several definitions to the term, all quite generally accepted. Context makes the difference.

I assume nothing.



The difficulty lies on which definition we choose to hold to.

This isn't math or science we are talking, but philosophy.

Therefore I suggest a more philosophical definition.

humanity -

definition. American English definition of humanity by Macmillan Dictionary

humanity - definition



NOUN [UNCOUNTABLE] American English pronunciation: humanity /hjuˈmænəti/

1. all the people who are living in the world

ex. Weapons of this type are a threat to the survival of humanity.

crimes against humanity (=crimes against a very large number of people): He was charged on six counts of crimes against humanity.



2. a kind and sympathetic attitude toward other people, especially when they are suffering in some way

ex. He was lacking in basic humanity.

3. the state of being human, and of behaving and thinking in the same way as other people

ex. By respecting other cultures, we affirm our common humanity.




For the purpose of this discussion, I believe I will hold to the one I first offered, and it seems closest to how I perceive his intent.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...Ahso!;1438169 wrote: Okay, I can agree to discuss this on those terms.

FWIW, as I said earlier, it boils down to being nice.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...Ahso!;1438170 wrote: So, I'll ask my question again:

"What if becoming more fully human meant the need to abandon religious perspective in order to develop more humanity"
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...LarsMac;1438174 wrote: Well, then I would have to ask you for your meaning of "religious perspective"

And then why would I want to, if "to develop more humanity" means simply to be more nice?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...Ahso!;1438178 wrote: You said you thought Spong had a higher expectation for humanity. What higher expectation would he have outside the definition you offered of kindness and sympathy for others?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

...LarsMac;1438188 wrote: I don't recall offering that as my definition. I believe I held to my original response.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

Okay, let's go with that ("My own definition: That which makes us human, both individually, and collectively. Our sense of ourselves and how we fit into the world as a species.")

Question though: is the definition you want to work with the common one you referred to as that of "others of the cloth", or is it the higher calling of humanity you say Spong sees? It's an important distinction, I think.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by LarsMac »

Ahso!;1438249 wrote: Okay, let's go with that ("My own definition: That which makes us human, both individually, and collectively. Our sense of ourselves and how we fit into the world as a species.")

Question though: is the definition you want to work with the common one you referred to as that of "others of the cloth", or is it the higher calling of humanity you say Spong sees? It's an important distinction, I think.


Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this thread. I was not subscribed to it, so it dropped off my radar during the rather hectic week that followed.

to start, I want to re-post the original comment:

Basically, it was not God that came up with Heaven and Hell.

"The Church doesn't like people to grow up,..." The Church would like for us all to remain children. We need to grow up and accept responsibility for our own lives."



"our problem is not that we were born in sin, our problem is that we do not yet know how to achieve being fully human."

"The function of the Christ is not to rescue the sinners, but to empower you and to call you to be more deeply and fully human than you ever realized there was the potential within you to be."

"Maybe salvation needs to be conveyed in terms of enhancing your humanity than rescuing you from it."

I believe those were the high points.
So you ask what was meant by "humanity" in this quote. When I returned the question, you came up with "Being nice to each other"

The common thread in all three quotes I posted is humanity, or being human.

I don't quite understand you puzzlement over this.

Let me ask you, then, What do you think it means to be human?
Control is an illusion. The Chaos is all part of the fun.
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by AnneBoleyn »

What do you think it means to be human?

Sentience means everything to us. Finding meaning in existence. Being bored. Killing for fun. Creating an environment. Having passion. Those kinds of things. (Being slick--see below)

I think being "nice" is an offshoot of being satiated. The ability to be nice may be a human quality, but being nice is something else.

We're so slick some of us use being nice just to get stuff.

eta--Ahso should explain what being "nice" actually is.
Ahso!
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Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

AnneBoleyn;1438989 wrote: What do you think it means to be human?

Sentience means everything to us. Finding meaning in existence. Being bored. Killing for fun. Creating an environment. Having passion. Those kinds of things. (Being slick--see below)

I think being "nice" is an offshoot of being satiated. The ability to be nice may be a human quality, but being nice is something else.

We're so slick some of us use being nice just to get stuff.

eta--Ahso should explain what being "nice" actually is.I think one of the definitions that Lars provided that included being compassionate and sympathetic is sufficient.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1438848 wrote: Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this thread. I was not subscribed to it, so it dropped off my radar during the rather hectic week that followed.

to start, I want to re-post the original comment:

So you ask what was meant by "humanity" in this quote. When I returned the question, you came up with "Being nice to each other"

The common thread in all three quotes I posted is humanity, or being human.

I don't quite understand you puzzlement over this.

Let me ask you, then, What do you think it means to be human?No I don't think I did, I proposed this:

hu·man·i·ty

(h)yo͞oˈmanitē/

noun

noun: humanity; plural noun: humanities

1.

the human race; human beings collectively.

"appalling crimes against humanity"

synonyms: humankind, mankind, man, people, human beings, humans, the human race, mortals; I intentionally selected this definition because it's void of philosophical connotation.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

Bishop John Shelby Spong describes faith and God

Post by Ahso! »

LarsMac;1438848 wrote: Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this thread. I was not subscribed to it, so it dropped off my radar during the rather hectic week that followed.

to start, I want to re-post the original comment:

So you ask what was meant by "humanity" in this quote. When I returned the question, you came up with "Being nice to each other"

The common thread in all three quotes I posted is humanity, or being human.

I don't quite understand you puzzlement over this.

Let me ask you, then, What do you think it means to be human?I'm not puzzled in the least. This thread began as an inquiry as to what you meant when you said "this guy gets it". You went on to say that Spong has a "higher expectation of humanity than other men of the cloth".

I don't know what any of that means so I asked you to clarify by defining terms. That's all.

We can get into the actual words Spong used after we both are on the same page with what you mean.

This is not a debate, it's an inquiry.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple

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