Why Jesus?

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:16 am

Disclaimer: I was baptised as a Roman Catholic, I did the usual things in the Church, first communion and all that, was an altar boy for a few years and about 12 or 13 I lost my faith. Oh, nothing bad happened, where I was an altar boy the priests were terrific, my favourite was Father Flanagan, he used to get bombed in a local pub on Fridays and when he was on Benediction duties the housekeeper had to put him to bed and another priest took over. He was a hoot. This was when I lived in England.

Anyway, I'm agnostic on the issue of religion, not a radical atheist but consider myself a reasonably tolerant secular humanist and while I'm not fussed about religion I want to live free of its influences in secular society.

I've been thinking in a non-religious and definitely non-theological manner about the emphasis in the Christian religion on Jesus. It seems particularly embedded in US versions of Christianity but it's found elsewhere. Why is Jesus so important in Christianity? I realise He is seen as the Son of God, the personification of God (which brings up the apparent predilection of various non-Christian gods who liked to slum it a bit down here with us mortals) but if He was/is God then why not just focus on God and not bang on about Jesus all the time?

hoppy · Post by **hoppy** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:57 am

Royd Fissure;1317859 wrote: Disclaimer: I was baptised as a Roman Catholic, I did the usual things in the Church, first communion and all that, was an altar boy for a few years and about 12 or 13 I lost my faith. Oh, nothing bad happened, where I was an altar boy the priests were terrific, my favourite was Father Flanagan, he used to get bombed in a local pub on Fridays and when he was on Benediction duties the housekeeper had to put him to bed and another priest took over. He was a hoot. This was when I lived in England.

Anyway, I'm agnostic on the issue of religion, not a radical atheist but consider myself a reasonably tolerant secular humanist and while I'm not fussed about religion I want to live free of its influences in secular society.

I've been thinking in a non-religious and definitely non-theological manner about the emphasis in the Christian religion on Jesus. It seems particularly embedded in US versions of Christianity but it's found elsewhere. Why is Jesus so important in Christianity? I realise He is seen as the Son of God, the personification of God (which brings up the apparent predilection of various non-Christian gods who liked to slum it a bit down here with us mortals) but if He was/is God then why not just focus on God and not bang on about Jesus all the time?

It do get confusing. I too, was born and raised Catholic. I "retired" from being a practising Catholic in my late teen years. We're told, "I am the lord thy God, have no other god's before me". Then, along comes Jesus, Mary, Joseph and tons of saints we are allowed to honor and/or pray to. Not to mention the statues in our churches. Idols? I just don't know.:-3

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:40 am

Royd Fissure;1317859 wrote: Why is Jesus so important in Christianity? I realise He is seen as the Son of God, the personification of God (which brings up the apparent predilection of various non-Christian gods who liked to slum it a bit down here with us mortals) but if He was/is God then why not just focus on God and not bang on about Jesus all the time?
Because he is Jesus Christ, from the Greek khristos meaning "the annointed". People who follow his teachings are call Christians just like people who follow Calvin's teachings are called Calvinists, people who follow Marx's teachings are called Marxists, and people who follow Idi Amin's teachings are called Idiots. (long way round, but worth the trip, dontcha think? :yh_bigsmi)

The big difference is that Jesus claimed, and Christians believe him to be, the Son of God and God Himself simultaneously. As such, now the god God -a generic term much like calling a man Sir when you've forgotten his name - has a name. Why not refer to someone by His name once you've learned it? Besides, Yaaaahwehhh hardly has the phonetic power of Jeesus.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:54 am

Why Jesus?

Because I'm not dead yet. A hundred or so years after I've died, I'll be me. Just stick around, you'll see!

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:49 am

Accountable;1317882 wrote: Because he is Jesus Christ, from the Greek khristos meaning "the annointed". People who follow his teachings are call Christians just like people who follow Calvin's teachings are called Calvinists, people who follow Marx's teachings are called Marxists, and people who follow Idi Amin's teachings are called Idiots. (long way round, but worth the trip, dontcha think? :yh_bigsmi)

The big difference is that Jesus claimed, and Christians believe him to be, the Son of God and God Himself simultaneously. As such, now the god God -a generic term much like calling a man Sir when you've forgotten his name - has a name. Why not refer to someone by His name once you've learned it? Besides, Yaaaahwehhh hardly has the phonetic power of Jeesus.

:wah: I liked it ACC, caught me by surprise. Why aren't the worshipers of Muhammad called Muhammadists?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:51 am

YZGI;1317918 wrote: :wah: I liked it ACC, caught me by surprise. Why aren't the worshipers of Muhammad called Muhammadists?
Maybe since the religion is run by the males, we could call them MuhaMadmen.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:54 am

Accountable;1317920 wrote: Maybe since the religion is run by the males, we could call them MuhaMadmen.

Then we would have to call the Catholics, Cathodicks.

Oops. A little drift there, back on subject..:-3

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:02 am

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:28 am

Royd Fissure;1317859 wrote:

I've been thinking in a non-religious and definitely non-theological manner about the emphasis in the Christian religion on Jesus. It seems particularly embedded in US versions of Christianity but it's found elsewhere. Why is Jesus so important in Christianity? I realise He is seen as the Son of God, the personification of God (which brings up the apparent predilection of various non-Christian gods who liked to slum it a bit down here with us mortals) but if He was/is God then why not just focus on God and not bang on about Jesus all the time?

Because Jesus is the basis of the New Testament and Christianity. It seems to me, I remember reading about Him talking about God all the time in what He said.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:55 pm

hoppy;1317874 wrote: It do get confusing. I too, was born and raised Catholic. I "retired" from being a practising Catholic in my late teen years. We're told, "I am the lord thy God, have no other god's before me". Then, along comes Jesus, Mary, Joseph and tons of saints we are allowed to honor and/or pray to. Not to mention the statues in our churches. Idols? I just don't know.:-3

Hoppy I'm with on this one, another RC (excomunicated myself Dad didn't talk to me for ages .) the focus is on Jesus yes, and all the saints.

Then I go off and join the JW's. The focus is more on god himself.

but for every one of these religions (and others) I'm apparently a bad person and need to be forgiven, constantly.

so now I'm wiccan and I can do what ever I want as long as I don't harm anyone.

Sounds good to me.

So why Jesus? (and other significant gods in main stream religion) .....Because we are masichists who cant trust our own instincts and morals.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:31 pm

Accountable;1317882 wrote: Because he is Jesus Christ, from the Greek khristos meaning "the annointed". People who follow his teachings are call Christians just like people who follow Calvin's teachings are called Calvinists, people who follow Marx's teachings are called Marxists, and people who follow Idi Amin's teachings are called Idiots. (long way round, but worth the trip, dontcha think? :yh_bigsmi)

The big difference is that Jesus claimed, and Christians believe him to be, the Son of God and God Himself simultaneously. As such, now the god God -a generic term much like calling a man Sir when you've forgotten his name - has a name. Why not refer to someone by His name once you've learned it? Besides, Yaaaahwehhh hardly has the phonetic power of Jeesus.

Worth the trip indeed! :wah:

This is where I have to be very focused because my lack of knowledge takes me all over the place (usually I need a plane ticket to to do that but on forums I don't have to buy one!) and I get totally confused.

Jesus, I read somewhere, was a common name back then, so there's nothing special about the name in the context of the son of Mary and Joseph (I'm pretty sure those names are Anglicised). They called their new son "Jesus". Now I believe Jesus was a Jew which meant He would have known the religion He was born into. The names of God for Jews are sacred and bound by law, I've heard the name "Hashem" used in everyday conversation but apparently the rules on speaking the various honorific names of God are in Jewish law. My point here is not so much the use of names as the focus on the person. Most Jews, perhaps even those who knew Jesus, seem not to have seen him as the Messiah, but as just another preacher. A small sect grew up around him which apparently believed (we don't know of Jesus himself claimed this) that he was God personified. As I mentioned earlier, there seems to have been a sort of embedded mythology of gods coming to Earth in various forms, human and otherwise. Jesus' followers believed that He was the Son of God, that is, God made human.

But I still don't get why the Son of God, the human manifestation of God, features so prominently. I understand that Christians worship the notion of Jesus as Son of God, so they are worshipping God but focused on His human form. Jews don't believe he was the Son of God (but granted there are some Messianic Jews I think who do believe so) and Muslims believe that Jesus was a very important prophet of Allah. But Muslims - again as I understand it - still worship Allah although the Prophet features hugely in their religion, I don't think the Prophet has a position analogous to that of Jesus as God. The Prophet, in the Koran, is always seen as the messenger of Allah, not Allah in human form.

If it works for Judaism and Islam, then why do Christians focus so greatly on Jesus and not God? I know He is believed to be God, but why focus on the temporary manifestation so much?

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Ahso!;1317884 wrote: Why Jesus?

Because I'm not dead yet. A hundred or so years after I've died, I'll be me. Just stick around, you'll see!

:wah:

Get working on it now Ahso!!

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:42 pm

YZGI;1317922 wrote: Then we would have to call the Catholics, Cathodicks.

Oops. A little drift there, back on subject..:-3

That's an interesting point and makes me think again.

As I understand it "Islam" means something along the lines of "submission" which is probably why I read and hear so many references in the religion which appear to me at least to be fatalistic. I don't know why it is but you can read/hear many references to Allah willing or allowing something. That's interesting to me because it hints at a sort of predestination or at least determinism. I get this mental image of Allah listening to everyone and deciding what will or will not happen to them. That's multi-tasking to a pretty high degree!

But my early education in Catholicism told me (if I recall correctly) that God is outside of space and time but He allows people free will, he's not the interfering type as Allah seems to be.

The Prophet carried the message of Allah in the form of a revealed text, the Koran, which was revealed to him over some time I think, by the Archangel Gabriel (?). The Prophet took the word of Allah around the Arabian peninsula, he himself wasn't any sort of manifestation of God, he would probably have been quite cranky if someone said he was, but again in Christianity the focus is on the man who is believed to have been the personification of God.

But I'm still wondering about the focus on the messenger rather than the sender, well not to the exclusion of the sender but in a Catholic Church you see lots of imaginary representations of Jesus and about the only representation of God I can think of is a disembodied hand in the Sistine Chapel roof.

theia · Post by **theia** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:49 pm

Royd Fissure;1318008 wrote: That's an interesting point and makes me think again.

As I understand it "Islam" means something along the lines of "submission" which is probably why I read and hear so many references in the religion which appear to me at least to be fatalistic. I don't know why it is but you can read/hear many references to Allah willing or allowing something. That's interesting to me because it hints at a sort of predestination or at least determinism. I get this mental image of Allah listening to everyone and deciding what will or will not happen to them. That's multi-tasking to a pretty high degree!

But my early education in Catholicism told me (if I recall correctly) that God is outside of space and time but He allows people free will, he's not the interfering type as Allah seems to be.

The Prophet carried the message of Allah in the form of a revealed text, the Koran, which was revealed to him over some time I think, by the Archangel Gabriel (?). The Prophet took the word of Allah around the Arabian peninsula, he himself wasn't any sort of manifestation of God, he would probably have been quite cranky if someone said he was, but again in Christianity the focus is on the man who is believed to have been the personification of God.

But I'm still wondering about the focus on the messenger rather than the sender, well not to the exclusion of the sender but in a Catholic Church you see lots of imaginary representations of Jesus and about the only representation of God I can think of is a disembodied hand in the Sistine Chapel roof.

Maybe it goes back to what you said earlier about the human/earthly figure of Jesus making it easier for people to relate to? If God is beyond human understanding, then it would be difficult to focus on God?

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:55 pm

chonsigirl;1317950 wrote: Because Jesus is the basis of the New Testament and Christianity. It seems to me, I remember reading about Him talking about God all the time in what He said.

Now that's a good point. Before Jesus there was the testament of the Hebrew bible - the Tanakh. Now I know the Tanakh is a compilation of five books of Judaism, compiled by a pretty powerful group of men, it was being developed before and after the human manifestation of God in Jesus which sort of makes me think that in Judaism at that time, Jesus was not well known outside of his little group of followers. It wasn't until after the execution of Jesus that His particular form of teaching was widely spread by the Apostles.

The Apostles, I think, were all Jews. They were Jews but believed that Jesus was the Son of God and they went out to preach that view to anyone who would listen. Who did they preach to? Other Jews? Pagans (which I assume would mean non-Jews)? There was a real mood of evangelism and of voluntary conversion (well early in the piece at least, some later Christians had a propensity to ask if someone wanted death or conversion).

The New Testament is Greek. The idea of Christos, as Accountable has pointed out, is Greek. When did the teaching of one Jew, followed by a small number of Jews who began to see themselves as diverting from mainstream Judaism, become Hellenised? Was this Hellenisation process responsible for focusing on Jesus and not so much on God?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:57 pm

Royd Fissure;1318003 wrote: :wah:

Get working on it now Ahso!!Geez, I've been, can't you tell? I get persecuted left and right. Its not easy drawing all that attention, you know. Thing is, Jesus did it all while walking in sandals. WOW! I've got a car, access to trains, boats, planes and the internet and I'm having trouble topping him. I figure his is a made up story.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:58 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1317992 wrote: Hoppy I'm with on this one, another RC (excomunicated myself Dad didn't talk to me for ages .) the focus is on Jesus yes, and all the saints.

Then I go off and join the JW's. The focus is more on god himself.

but for every one of these religions (and others) I'm apparently a bad person and need to be forgiven, constantly.

so now I'm wiccan and I can do what ever I want as long as I don't harm anyone.

Sounds good to me.

So why Jesus? (and other significant gods in main stream religion) .....Because we are masichists who cant trust our own instincts and morals.

Again another good point and questions which make me think a bit more. Christianity seems to be a religion which offers salvation. Did the Judaism of Jesus' time offer salvation? I don't know. Maybe it assumed that if you obeyed the laws of Judaism that you would be looked after? Again I don't know because I don't know if Judaism has a concept of an afterlife. I remember reading that the Jews didn't have a concept of "Hell" so from that I think that perhaps there was no concept of salvation in Judaism because there was nothing to be saved from. And again I don't know if the concept exists in Islam. I know it exists in Christianity, that's all.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:03 pm

It's Jesus because he was the one all the prophets in the old testament were writing about ...note Isiah and Daniel. Jesus was still a jew and the church didn't really change he just fixed it up a bit . so by default Christians are all following a Jewish religion. jesus is essentially the saviour of the Jews .......like David etc. but Jesus is the manifestation of the angel Michael. note genesis.

That's why Jesus

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:05 pm

They believe in hell in Islam, along the same concepts as Christianity.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:10 pm

theia;1318010 wrote: Maybe it goes back to what you said earlier about the human/earthly figure of Jesus making it easier for people to relate to? If God is beyond human understanding, then it would be difficult to focus on God?

That's a very helpful point, thank you for making it. I missed that completely. It would be pretty scary if God appeared I think, I mean again previous religions had their gods turn up in all sorts of forms, some slightly threatening (I'm thinking of Europa) and some not (Leda's dalliance with of all things a swan - a white one, we didn't know black ones existed until the Dutch brought one back from Down Under - it died on the journey). It seems that to the ancient Greeks at least, that their gods, even the chief one, were not to be held in such awe as the God of Abraham.

God is beyond human understanding indeed. Becoming Jesus, born to a human couple, growing up as a boy and then a young man in a Jewish country occupied by the Romans, was a message to those who would listen that God's awesome nature was being pared down to a form that wouldn't frighten the shepherds, the sheep or anyone else who happened to be around. God appearing in His God form would be a huge event on Earth and would probably cause major panic and a huge drop in the stock market.

Jesus had a human form. That form has been idealised in Christian iconography. The debate about what Jesus looked like is well known. Western Christianity represents Jesus as a Caucasian man with pleasant features. I have seen a suggested form of Jesus which has Him in a form that wouldn't have been out of place in the stoning scene in The Life of Brian. From that it seems that Western Christianity gave Jesus a form that was pleasant to the western Caucasian eye.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:11 pm

Ahso!;1318014 wrote: Geez, I've been, can't you tell? I get persecuted left and right. Its not easy drawing all that attention, you know. Thing is, Jesus did it all while walking in sandals. WOW! I've got a car, access to trains, boats, planes and the internet and I'm having trouble topping him. I figure his is a made up story.

You can travel anywhere you l like now, trains, boats, planes - just one travel tip - stay away from the Middle East

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:17 pm

fuzzywuzzy;1318017 wrote: It's Jesus because he was the one all the prophets in the old testament were writing about ...note Isiah and Daniel. Jesus was still a jew and the church didn't really change he just fixed it up a bit . so by default Christians are all following a Jewish religion. jesus is essentially the saviour of the Jews .......like David etc. but Jesus is the manifestation of the angel Michael. note genesis.

That's why Jesus

The Old Testament is the Hebrew bible isn't it? It was compiled, as I said before. Now I know there is a figure called the Messiah in there (again it's interesting that a more secular messianic figure is rampant in human mythology, straight away I'm thinking King Arthur or Holger Dansk - the original Norse figure I mean). But was the appearance of Jesus - that is God as man - foretold by the Jewish prophets? Or were the Messianic references a little less particularised? I don't know. I should find out.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:18 pm

chonsigirl;1318019 wrote: They believe in hell in Islam, along the same concepts as Christianity.

Thank you for that - so it appears Islam offers salvation as well. That's a powerful motivator isn't it?

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:22 pm

It is a different type of salvation, how you obtain it.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:41 pm

chonsigirl;1318030 wrote: It is a different type of salvation, how you obtain it.

I didn't know that - are the differences major?

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:46 pm

But was the appearance of Jesus - that is God as man - foretold by the Jewish prophets? Or were the Messianic references a little less particularised? I don't know. I should find out.

According to the Torah and the Old testament yes it was . The Jews don't dispute Jesus nor does Islam. They believe he was another prophet. It's not disputed that he existed but it's disputed that he was the Son of god/ saviour/michael/ etc.

As far as hell goes some christian demoninations do not believe in it's concept, much like the Israelites.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:18 pm

Royd Fissure;1318037 wrote: I didn't know that - are the differences major?

Yes, it's the difference between:

Christian: salvation, free gift of God, through grace

Islam: through works, as exemplified in the Five Pillars of Islam

That is a debate unto itself, because, the Five Pillars are very admirable qualities to have indeed.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:33 pm

chonsigirl;1318054 wrote: Yes, it's the difference between:

Christian: salvation, free gift of God, through grace

Islam: through works, as exemplified in the Five Pillars of Islam

That is a debate unto itself, because, the Five Pillars are very admirable qualities to have indeed.
Islam is built into 5 pillars. A Muslim is taught that if he/she does all these 5 pillars then he/she will enter paradise.

To bear witness that there is no entity worthy of worship except Allah (God) alone, and that Muhammad (pbuh) was His messenger. This means that you believe in Allah alone and you do not attribute him to any partners.

Perform Salat (prayer) a Muslim must pray 5 times a day according to a specific prescribed method. We do this because we have to remember Allah in all our actions.

Pay Zakat (charity) A Muslim must pay 2.5% of his wealth to charity every year. If their savings exceed a certain minimum level which is considered above the poverty level.

Sawm (Fast) A Muslim must fast during the month of Ramadan, every year from sun rise till sunset. This means that he/she must not eat, drink or have martial relations from sun rise till sunset.

Perform pilgrimage to Makkah. During the lifetime of a Muslim they must perform pilgrimage if they can afford it and if their health allows them to. Muslims come from all over the world to join together for 6 days in a prescribed set of acts of worship

Know Your Deen - Home

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:58 pm

theia;1318010 wrote: Maybe it goes back to what you said earlier about the human/earthly figure of Jesus making it easier for people to relate to? If God is beyond human understanding, then it would be difficult to focus on God?

THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,

for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,

for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,

for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,

for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:06 am

fuzzywuzzy;1318039 wrote: According to the Torah and the Old testament yes it was . The Jews don't dispute Jesus nor does Islam. They believe he was another prophet. It's not disputed that he existed but it's disputed that he was the Son of god/ saviour/michael/ etc.

As far as hell goes some christian demoninations do not believe in it's concept, much like the Israelites.

I suppose the senior people in Judaism were a bit upset that Jesus claimed to be God.

Interesting that Hell doesn't exist in some denominations, I seem to remember the Vatican declaring limbo was out of fashion too, not sure about purgatory, it's probably still there I think.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:08 am

chonsigirl;1318054 wrote: Yes, it's the difference between:

Christian: salvation, free gift of God, through grace

Islam: through works, as exemplified in the Five Pillars of Islam

That is a debate unto itself, because, the Five Pillars are very admirable qualities to have indeed.

Christian: - what does one have to do to find salvation?

The Five Pillars: why are they good?

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:10 am

Blessed are the meek,

for they shall inherit the earth.

Famous graffito:

Blessed are the meek,

for they shall inherit the earth - "that's if the rest of you don't mind"

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:11 am

I still don't know "why Jesus?"

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:31 am

Royd Fissure;1318140 wrote: Christian: - what does one have to do to find salvation?

The Five Pillars: why are they good?

Christianity: accept Jesus as your Savior. That's it.

Islam: Five Pillars-they are good examples to live by. Giving to the poor on an almost daily basis, fasting, spending time in prayer, belief in Allah as God. (you must acknolwedge Muhammed as the prophet to lead you in this direction) The pilgrimage is is the last pillar, and one a believer should aim for sometime in their lifetime.

Why Jesus?

You would have to spend time in prayer/contemplation to decide this for yourself.

fuzzywuzzy · Post by **fuzzywuzzy** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:11 am

Royd Fissure;1318138 wrote: I suppose the senior people in Judaism were a bit upset that Jesus claimed to be God.

Interesting that Hell doesn't exist in some denominations, I seem to remember the Vatican declaring limbo was out of fashion too, not sure about purgatory, it's probably still there I think.

No he didn't, he claimed to be 'of' god. And the word God was given quite readily to important people during biblical times.

I'm pretty sure pergatory is out too ....I was confused after they rearranged communion and reconciliation as sacrements. Obviously somone became a bit more switched on that 9 year olds don't know when they are sinning?

I'ts all humbug to me.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:53 am

chonsigirl;1318151 wrote: Christianity: accept Jesus as your Savior. That's it.

Islam: Five Pillars-they are good examples to live by. Giving to the poor on an almost daily basis, fasting, spending time in prayer, belief in Allah as God. (you must acknolwedge Muhammed as the prophet to lead you in this direction) The pilgrimage is is the last pillar, and one a believer should aim for sometime in their lifetime.

Why Jesus?

You would have to spend time in prayer/contemplation to decide this for yourself.

Why Jesus? Why not God? That was my original question. I'm not trying to test anyone here, just wondering why the focus on Jesus and not on God.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:58 am

fuzzywuzzy;1318164 wrote: No he didn't, he claimed to be 'of' god. And the word God was given quite readily to important people during biblical times.

I'm pretty sure pergatory is out too ....I was confused after they rearranged communion and reconciliation as sacrements. Obviously somone became a bit more switched on that 9 year olds don't know when they are sinning?

I'ts all humbug to me.

Someone should have taken notes when He was speaking

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:03 am

Royd Fissure;1318138 wrote: I suppose the senior people in Judaism were a bit upset that Jesus claimed to be God.

fuzzywuzzy;1318164 wrote: No he didn't, he claimed to be 'of' god.
He called himself Son of Man throughout Matthew chapter 26. Matthew 26 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

He called Himself Son of God in John chapter 11. John 11 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

He claimed to be God Himself in John chapter 14. John 14 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:06 am

Royd Fissure;1318142 wrote: I still don't know "why Jesus?"

Royd Fissure;1318186 wrote: Why Jesus? Why not God? That was my original question. I'm not trying to test anyone here, just wondering why the focus on Jesus and not on God.
There've been a couple of stabs in that area, but I'll try again.

In Christianity, Jesus is God. Jesus is the God. They are one and the same. Why wouldn't we call him by name?

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:10 am

But why is Jesus so front and centre? Why not worship God and get on with it? Since Jesus was the earthly manifestation of God then He ceased to be an earthly manifestation when he was crucified and ceased to exist as a human. Plainly he was there for a specific time and to carry out certain tasks, job done, recalled and so God should be at the centre of worship.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:14 am

Royd Fissure;1318194 wrote: But why is Jesus so front and centre? Why not worship God and get on with it? Since Jesus was the earthly manifestation of God then He ceased to be an earthly manifestation when he was crucified and ceased to exist as a human. Plainly he was there for a specific time and to carry out certain tasks, job done, recalled and so God should be at the centre of worship.
I'm sorry. I stated it as plainly as I could. The body ceased but the name lives on. That which applied to that body is still applied to the spiritual being. Our God's Name is Jesus, full stop. It's really as simple as that.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:22 am

Accountable;1318196 wrote: I'm sorry. I stated it as plainly as I could. The body ceased but the name lives on. That which applied to that body is still applied to the spiritual being. Our God's Name is Jesus, full stop. It's really as simple as that.

Not criticising you Accountable, you linked to the authorities. I'm questioning the religion which calls itself after an earthly manifestation of God and seems to focus itself almost entirely on that earthly manifestation. God is God. Jesus was the son of Mary and Joseph and he died after being executed on a cross. I still don't get it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:26 am

Royd Fissure;1318197 wrote: Not criticising you Accountable, you linked to the authorities. I'm questioning the religion which calls itself after an earthly manifestation of God and seems to focus itself almost entirely on that earthly manifestation. God is God. Jesus was the son of Mary and Joseph and he died after being executed on a cross. I still don't get it.
No criticism taken. It just seems to me you're asking why we insist on calling blue blue, when for centuries before the word blue came into vogue the color was called something else.

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:58 pm

No, not really (re blue being blue). It's a conundrum for me, this focus on Jesus with God sort of in the background and I admit that's my subjective view. A theologian could probably explain it to me but I remain confused. I am aware of another view of Christianity focused on Mary, the Marian devotions - and that makes me even more confused.

I'll have to settle for confusion.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:17 pm

Royd Fissure;1318366 wrote: No, not really (re blue being blue). It's a conundrum for me, this focus on Jesus with God sort of in the background and I admit that's my subjective view. A theologian could probably explain it to me but I remain confused. I am aware of another view of Christianity focused on Mary, the Marian devotions - and that makes me even more confused.

I'll have to settle for confusion.
:) But He's not in the background. The King decided to walk among the people. He didn't want to be fussed over so he did what he could to appear like the common folk. He even used a common name so as not to attract too much attention. By the time he finally revealed himself, his new friends still saw the common man, even though they knew and accepted him as king. And so they chose to remember him - king, commoner, friend, and teacher - by the name by which he introduced himself.

I have another analogy if you'd like.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:08 am

But my early education in Catholicism told me (if I recall correctly) that God is outside of space and time but He allows people free will, he's not the interfering type as Allah seems to be.

I thought Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same god, but through different teachers...?

And isn't the Trinity involved here? The three-in-one bit. Never got the hang of the Holy Spirit.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:54 am

Clodhopper;1318485 wrote: I thought Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the same god, but through different teachers...?

And isn't the Trinity involved here? The three-in-one bit. Never got the hang of the Holy Spirit.
It came in at Pentecost.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

I never really got the Trinity thing, either. The Catholic Church seems heckbent on making things seem really complicated, I spose so that people would continue to depend on the priests to tell them how to act. Father Son & Holy Spirit. Jesus (the Son) said that he & the Father are One. Then he died, so the Son is out of the picture, leaving only God, now known as Jesus. Then the Holy Spirit came down. There's no reason I can see that would make this a separate entity at all. God spoke from the Burning Bush, but nobody equates the bush to God. It's not that the three are simultaneously separate and one. All three are the same thing, Just as I am a teacher, a husband, and a Forum Gardener.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:22 am

Or Big Daddy, the Kid and Spook as Dave Allen called them.:wah:

Thanks for the explanation. Makes more sense than others I've heard. Still have a nagging feeling that a theologian would have conniptions though!

But as to why Jesus, well, even if you don't think he was God, he was one heck of a man and teacher and talks an awful lot of sense about living. And as far as I know, Jesus never claimed to be the son of God. Lots of other people claimed it for him, but he never said it.

Good guy at a party, too!

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:51 am

Clodhopper;1318541 wrote: Or Big Daddy, the Kid and Spook as Dave Allen called them.

Thanks for the explanation. Makes more sense than others I've heard. Still have a nagging feeling that a theologian would have conniptions though!No doubt! If things aren't complex, we don't need theologians; therefore, things must be complex.

Clodhopper wrote: But as to why Jesus, well, even if you don't think he was God, he was one heck of a man and teacher and talks an awful lot of sense about living. And as far as I know, Jesus never claimed to be the son of God. Lots of other people claimed it for him, but he never said it.

Good guy at a party, too!http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... ost1318191

Royd Fissure · Post by **Royd Fissure** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:44 pm

Accountable;1318402 wrote:

But He's not in the background. The King decided to walk among the people. He didn't want to be fussed over so he did what he could to appear like the common folk. He even used a common name so as not to attract too much attention. By the time he finally revealed himself, his new friends still saw the common man, even though they knew and accepted him as king. And so they chose to remember him - king, commoner, friend, and teacher - by the name by which he introduced himself.

I have another analogy if you'd like.

No, that's a good one and I'll have a think about it for sure.