Why is it that so many Christians find it so easy to love God but so hard to love their neighbour - especially when the neighbour is not a carbon copy of themselves?
Is it possible that we can only really love people who are like ourselves and who share our beliefs? If so, is it possible that when we get to heaven and see how different God is from us, we may actually cease to love him?
God bless.
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
Hoss;967298 wrote: I like all my neighbors and don’t really have a problem with anyone.
But who are these neighbours you claim to love? Perhaps they are a lot like you - then its easy to love them!
Almost every day I hear about Protestants who hate Catholics and Catholics who hate Protestants; white people who hate black people and black people who hate white people; rich people who are contemptuous of the poor and poor people who are contemptuous of the rich - and that is when they are all Christians!
(I wonder how many Christians who normally vote Democrat will change their party allegiance in the forthcoming election merely because they cannot bear the thought of voting for a black man! Is that an example of Christian love? Do you really believe that Jesus would approve?)
So many times on the Internet I see Christians who get on really well together - until one of them admits that he is a Catholic or he is black or gay and then, immediately, the atmosphere changes and the majority start to gang up on the person they used to be so friendly with. If you don't believe me, I dare you to try it. Find a new site. Get yourself known and then, just when everyone has accepted you, drop a bombshell on them. Tell them you are a Catholic / gay / black - and just watch the 'love' wash away! Believe me, I know what I'm talking about because I have done it!!!!
And the hatred sometimes gets even worse when it is between Christians and people of different religions. Do you get on quite so well with Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists?
And how do you feel about Muslim terrorists? I seem to remember that Jesus told us that we should love our enemies - well, do you?
I would say that anyone who locks someone up for years without putting them on trial or allowing them legal representation is failing in their Christian duty - as well as failing in their civil duty to treat all people equally within the law! And, just in case anyone thinks I am only talking about Guantanamo Bay, let me tell you that something similar (but not exactly the same) happened over here during the recent 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. (And what a euphemism that is! It wasn't just a few small 'troubles' - it was virtually a full-blown civil war between two denominations of 'Christians', though no one would admit it!) And do you know what? During all the years of conflict, the clergy - on both sides - were among the very worst at stoking up the flames of hatred! Never once did I hear one of them coming out and saying, 'Put down your weapons and embrace each other because this is your Christian duty.' Never once!
So do you really find it so easy to love your neighbour? If you do, you are one in a million and, with all sincerity, I salute you!
But who are these neighbours you claim to love? Perhaps they are a lot like you - then its easy to love them!
Almost every day I hear about Protestants who hate Catholics and Catholics who hate Protestants; white people who hate black people and black people who hate white people; rich people who are contemptuous of the poor and poor people who are contemptuous of the rich - and that is when they are all Christians!
(I wonder how many Christians who normally vote Democrat will change their party allegiance in the forthcoming election merely because they cannot bear the thought of voting for a black man! Is that an example of Christian love? Do you really believe that Jesus would approve?)
So many times on the Internet I see Christians who get on really well together - until one of them admits that he is a Catholic or he is black or gay and then, immediately, the atmosphere changes and the majority start to gang up on the person they used to be so friendly with. If you don't believe me, I dare you to try it. Find a new site. Get yourself known and then, just when everyone has accepted you, drop a bombshell on them. Tell them you are a Catholic / gay / black - and just watch the 'love' wash away! Believe me, I know what I'm talking about because I have done it!!!!
And the hatred sometimes gets even worse when it is between Christians and people of different religions. Do you get on quite so well with Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists?
And how do you feel about Muslim terrorists? I seem to remember that Jesus told us that we should love our enemies - well, do you?
I would say that anyone who locks someone up for years without putting them on trial or allowing them legal representation is failing in their Christian duty - as well as failing in their civil duty to treat all people equally within the law! And, just in case anyone thinks I am only talking about Guantanamo Bay, let me tell you that something similar (but not exactly the same) happened over here during the recent 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. (And what a euphemism that is! It wasn't just a few small 'troubles' - it was virtually a full-blown civil war between two denominations of 'Christians', though no one would admit it!) And do you know what? During all the years of conflict, the clergy - on both sides - were among the very worst at stoking up the flames of hatred! Never once did I hear one of them coming out and saying, 'Put down your weapons and embrace each other because this is your Christian duty.' Never once!
So do you really find it so easy to love your neighbour? If you do, you are one in a million and, with all sincerity, I salute you!
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
twistedwoods:-6
An excellent question worthy of consideration.
I believe I fall into that groups that does indeed love my neighbours even if they are Muslim etc. I am a Christian pluralist.
My experience on forums and especially Christian ones has been very negative. If one is a Christian with a different viewpoint one is shunned by other Christians. In fact over the years the only folks who have made personal attacks on me were "Christians". I've been called names, judged, condemned etc. LOL How come I was not surprised???
Shalom
Ted:-6
An excellent question worthy of consideration.
I believe I fall into that groups that does indeed love my neighbours even if they are Muslim etc. I am a Christian pluralist.
My experience on forums and especially Christian ones has been very negative. If one is a Christian with a different viewpoint one is shunned by other Christians. In fact over the years the only folks who have made personal attacks on me were "Christians". I've been called names, judged, condemned etc. LOL How come I was not surprised???
Shalom
Ted:-6
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
I am an atheist and have no problem with loving my neighbors, or anyone else for that matter.
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
twistwoods;967137 wrote: Why is it that so many Christians find it so easy to love God but so hard to love their neighbour - especially when the neighbour is not a carbon copy of themselves?
Is it possible that we can only really love people who are like ourselves and who share our beliefs? If so, is it possible that when we get to heaven and see how different God is from us, we may actually cease to love him?
God bless.
God is imaginary and you don't have to contend with the reality whereas your neighbour is -well your neighbour and if you're really unlucky very annoying and inconsiderate. If you're not a Christian you just work out ways to get along with each other. Differences are what make people interesting
If you are a christian you have the added problem that your neighbour might not be religious or a proper Christian in which case you have to work out how to get along with someone you think inferior.
I don't care whether someone is catholic, protestant, muslim or new age animnist they're just people. Christians can't do that they have to know and make a judgement.
Is it possible that we can only really love people who are like ourselves and who share our beliefs? If so, is it possible that when we get to heaven and see how different God is from us, we may actually cease to love him?
God bless.
God is imaginary and you don't have to contend with the reality whereas your neighbour is -well your neighbour and if you're really unlucky very annoying and inconsiderate. If you're not a Christian you just work out ways to get along with each other. Differences are what make people interesting
If you are a christian you have the added problem that your neighbour might not be religious or a proper Christian in which case you have to work out how to get along with someone you think inferior.
I don't care whether someone is catholic, protestant, muslim or new age animnist they're just people. Christians can't do that they have to know and make a judgement.
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
gmc;968390 wrote: God is imaginary and you don't have to contend with the reality whereas your neighbour is -well your neighbour and if you're really unlucky very annoying and inconsiderate. If you're not a Christian you just work out ways to get along with each other. Differences are what make people interesting
If you are a christian you have the added problem that your neighbour might not be religious or a proper Christian in which case you have to work out how to get along with someone you think inferior.
I don't care whether someone is catholic, protestant, muslim or new age animnist they're just people. Christians can't do that they have to know and make a judgement.
Wow! You make an awful lot of assumptions there!
Firstly, you seem to be saying that only Christians have problems in loving their neighbour. That is blatantly untrue. Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other for generations in India and Pakistan! Also, I seem to recall that there are two 'denominations' of Muslims who are currently blowing each other to bits in Iraq!
Secondly, you accuse all Christians of believing that people of other faiths - and no faith at all - are 'inferior' but that simply isn't true. There may be some Christians who think like that but I must admit I have never met any of them. I have met many Christians of almost every denomination and they will argue with each other about the smallest, most trivial point of faith but the one thing they all have in common is that they believe we are all flawed, we are all 'sinners'. I have never heard a single Christian say 'You are all sinners but, of course, I am not'. In fact, it seems to be you who are saying that - so perhaps you are the one with the superiority complex!!!
Finally, you say that non-Christians are able to work out ways to get along with their neighbours in a way that Christians are unable to do. I could be wrong, but I don't think Hitler was a Christian, was he? Haven't the historians discovered Nazi documents that show that, after they had finished with the Jews, they were going to start on the Christians next? Of course, they were not going to exterminate them just for being born into a Christian family (probably because there would have been no people left alive for them to rule) but they were going to ban the Christian religion and imprison - or maybe even kill - anyone who refused to renounce their faith. It seems to me that Hitler was a very good example of a non-Christian who had an awful lot of trouble in loving his neighbours, wouldn't you agree?
God bless.
If you are a christian you have the added problem that your neighbour might not be religious or a proper Christian in which case you have to work out how to get along with someone you think inferior.
I don't care whether someone is catholic, protestant, muslim or new age animnist they're just people. Christians can't do that they have to know and make a judgement.
Wow! You make an awful lot of assumptions there!
Firstly, you seem to be saying that only Christians have problems in loving their neighbour. That is blatantly untrue. Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other for generations in India and Pakistan! Also, I seem to recall that there are two 'denominations' of Muslims who are currently blowing each other to bits in Iraq!
Secondly, you accuse all Christians of believing that people of other faiths - and no faith at all - are 'inferior' but that simply isn't true. There may be some Christians who think like that but I must admit I have never met any of them. I have met many Christians of almost every denomination and they will argue with each other about the smallest, most trivial point of faith but the one thing they all have in common is that they believe we are all flawed, we are all 'sinners'. I have never heard a single Christian say 'You are all sinners but, of course, I am not'. In fact, it seems to be you who are saying that - so perhaps you are the one with the superiority complex!!!
Finally, you say that non-Christians are able to work out ways to get along with their neighbours in a way that Christians are unable to do. I could be wrong, but I don't think Hitler was a Christian, was he? Haven't the historians discovered Nazi documents that show that, after they had finished with the Jews, they were going to start on the Christians next? Of course, they were not going to exterminate them just for being born into a Christian family (probably because there would have been no people left alive for them to rule) but they were going to ban the Christian religion and imprison - or maybe even kill - anyone who refused to renounce their faith. It seems to me that Hitler was a very good example of a non-Christian who had an awful lot of trouble in loving his neighbours, wouldn't you agree?
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
Why is it that so many Christians find it so easy to love God but so hard to love their neighbour - especially when the neighbour is not a carbon copy of themselves?
Because people are contemptible whereas God is not.
Because people are contemptible whereas God is not.
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
twistwoods;968458 wrote: Wow! You make an awful lot of assumptions there!
Firstly, you seem to be saying that only Christians have problems in loving their neighbour. That is blatantly untrue. Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other for generations in India and Pakistan! Also, I seem to recall that there are two 'denominations' of Muslims who are currently blowing each other to bits in Iraq!
Secondly, you accuse all Christians of believing that people of other faiths - and no faith at all - are 'inferior' but that simply isn't true. There may be some Christians who think like that but I must admit I have never met any of them. I have met many Christians of almost every denomination and they will argue with each other about the smallest, most trivial point of faith but the one thing they all have in common is that they believe we are all flawed, we are all 'sinners'. I have never heard a single Christian say 'You are all sinners but, of course, I am not'. In fact, it seems to be you who are saying that - so perhaps you are the one with the superiority complex!!!
Finally, you say that non-Christians are able to work out ways to get along with their neighbours in a way that Christians are unable to do. I could be wrong, but I don't think Hitler was a Christian, was he? Haven't the historians discovered Nazi documents that show that, after they had finished with the Jews, they were going to start on the Christians next? Of course, they were not going to exterminate them just for being born into a Christian family (probably because there would have been no people left alive for them to rule) but they were going to ban the Christian religion and imprison - or maybe even kill - anyone who refused to renounce their faith. It seems to me that Hitler was a very good example of a non-Christian who had an awful lot of trouble in loving his neighbours, wouldn't you agree?
God bless.
Change it then if you prefer how about.God is imaginary and you don't have to contend with the reality whereas your neighbour is -well your neighbour and if you're really unlucky very annoying and inconsiderate. If you're not religious (instead of )a Christian you just work out ways to get along with each other. Differences are what make people interesting
If you are a christian, muslim, hindu, bhuddhist etc etc. you have the added problem that your neighbour might not be religious or a proper Christian in which case you have to work out how to get along with someone you think inferior.
I don't care whether someone is catholic, protestant, muslim or new age animnist they're just people. Religious people can't do that they have to know and make a judgement.
I'm speaking in general terms not about you or your beliefs in particular.
Hitler was raised a catholic, germany was a christian country where religion played a big part. He would never have started on the christians if the pope had actually condemned hitler and what he was doing he would have had serious problems-what would catholics do obey the pope or the leader of the state. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of their countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.
but they were going to ban the Christian religion and imprison - or maybe even kill - anyone who refused to renounce their faith. It seems to me that Hitler was a very good example of a non-Christian who had an awful lot of trouble in loving his neighbours, wouldn't you agree?
Where did you get the idea the nazis were going to ban religion? Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical. Hitler, like some of today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." Have a look at some of the films made by the nazis extolling the virties of a good aryan family life if you want to see what i mean. He liked corporal punishment in home and in school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it. (sound familiar to anyone)
Anti-semitism was commonplace throughout europe at the time which is easy to forget. That the jews were the killers of christ was almost a tenet of christian belief and the justification for much of the hatred.
from Mein Kampf
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work.
http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/
(I have eclectic reading habits)
That Hitler was atheist is a convenient rewriting of history. Mind you he committed suicide so maybe he stopped believing the bit about suicides no getting to heaven. I can think of far more examples of christians (muslims etc etc) who had trouble loving their neighbour because of their difference in religion and went to war than I can the odd supposed atheist.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... a.religion
Christians hide in forests as Hindu mobs ransack villages
No doubt god is on both sides
Firstly, you seem to be saying that only Christians have problems in loving their neighbour. That is blatantly untrue. Muslims and Hindus have been slaughtering each other for generations in India and Pakistan! Also, I seem to recall that there are two 'denominations' of Muslims who are currently blowing each other to bits in Iraq!
Secondly, you accuse all Christians of believing that people of other faiths - and no faith at all - are 'inferior' but that simply isn't true. There may be some Christians who think like that but I must admit I have never met any of them. I have met many Christians of almost every denomination and they will argue with each other about the smallest, most trivial point of faith but the one thing they all have in common is that they believe we are all flawed, we are all 'sinners'. I have never heard a single Christian say 'You are all sinners but, of course, I am not'. In fact, it seems to be you who are saying that - so perhaps you are the one with the superiority complex!!!
Finally, you say that non-Christians are able to work out ways to get along with their neighbours in a way that Christians are unable to do. I could be wrong, but I don't think Hitler was a Christian, was he? Haven't the historians discovered Nazi documents that show that, after they had finished with the Jews, they were going to start on the Christians next? Of course, they were not going to exterminate them just for being born into a Christian family (probably because there would have been no people left alive for them to rule) but they were going to ban the Christian religion and imprison - or maybe even kill - anyone who refused to renounce their faith. It seems to me that Hitler was a very good example of a non-Christian who had an awful lot of trouble in loving his neighbours, wouldn't you agree?
God bless.
Change it then if you prefer how about.God is imaginary and you don't have to contend with the reality whereas your neighbour is -well your neighbour and if you're really unlucky very annoying and inconsiderate. If you're not religious (instead of )a Christian you just work out ways to get along with each other. Differences are what make people interesting
If you are a christian, muslim, hindu, bhuddhist etc etc. you have the added problem that your neighbour might not be religious or a proper Christian in which case you have to work out how to get along with someone you think inferior.
I don't care whether someone is catholic, protestant, muslim or new age animnist they're just people. Religious people can't do that they have to know and make a judgement.
I'm speaking in general terms not about you or your beliefs in particular.
Hitler was raised a catholic, germany was a christian country where religion played a big part. He would never have started on the christians if the pope had actually condemned hitler and what he was doing he would have had serious problems-what would catholics do obey the pope or the leader of the state. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of their countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.
but they were going to ban the Christian religion and imprison - or maybe even kill - anyone who refused to renounce their faith. It seems to me that Hitler was a very good example of a non-Christian who had an awful lot of trouble in loving his neighbours, wouldn't you agree?
Where did you get the idea the nazis were going to ban religion? Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church to blindly follow all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical. Hitler, like some of today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." Have a look at some of the films made by the nazis extolling the virties of a good aryan family life if you want to see what i mean. He liked corporal punishment in home and in school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it. (sound familiar to anyone)
Anti-semitism was commonplace throughout europe at the time which is easy to forget. That the jews were the killers of christ was almost a tenet of christian belief and the justification for much of the hatred.
from Mein Kampf
I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work.
http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/
(I have eclectic reading habits)
That Hitler was atheist is a convenient rewriting of history. Mind you he committed suicide so maybe he stopped believing the bit about suicides no getting to heaven. I can think of far more examples of christians (muslims etc etc) who had trouble loving their neighbour because of their difference in religion and went to war than I can the odd supposed atheist.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/au ... a.religion
Christians hide in forests as Hindu mobs ransack villages
No doubt god is on both sides
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
gmc;968552 wrote:
Hitler was raised a catholic, germany was a christian country where religion played a big part. He would never have started on the christians if the pope had actually condemned hitler and what he was doing he would have had serious problems-what would catholics do obey the pope or the leader of the state. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. .....
Where did you get the idea the nazis were going to ban religion? Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. ...... Hitler, like some of today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." Have a look at some of the films made by the nazis extolling the virties of a good aryan family life if you want to see what i mean. He liked corporal punishment in home and in school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. ......
Anti-semitism was commonplace throughout europe at the time which is easy to forget. That the jews were the killers of christ was almost a tenet of christian belief and the justification for much of the hatred. ......
That Hitler was atheist is a convenient rewriting of history. ......
Hi gmc!
I see that you are British so I probably don't have to explain to you about the Open University and the rather unusual way its students can study for a degree. As you may know, students do not have to choose one subject and study only that subject. They can study history this year and literature next year and geography the following year. For my degree, I chose to fluctuate between my two favourite subjects - history and literature. As part of my degree, I did a major study on the causes of the Second World War, but I got so interested in what it is that causes a man - and a country - to go so far off the rails, that I have been studying the subject (on and off) ever since. I am also a History Channel addict, although the lack of depth in most of the programmes often drives me crazy!! So you will not be surprised when I say that you have told me nothing I did not already know.
Firstly, I was very careful not to say that Hitler was an atheist. I said he was a non-Christian, which is factually accurate. He may have been brought up a Catholic but that doesn't make him a Catholic - or a Christian of any kind - in adulthood! At least half of the people I know who were brought up Catholics - or Anglicans or Methodists - now describe themselves as agnostics or atheists. In fact, there is a lot of evidence (which I must admit has recently been called into question) that Hitler was obsessed by the occult. Hardly a Christian activity!
Secondly, I would never defend the Pope's decision not to denounce Hitler and his fascist pals. There can be no excuse for staying silent in the face of such evil. Nevertheless - and this is no excuse - from what I have read, he thought his first duty was to protect Catholics and he was worried that Hitler (who no longer claimed to be a Catholic) would turn on them next if the Pope denounced him. He probably also thought he himself was very vulnerable as the Vatican is right in the middle of Rome! That is still no excuse. The Church has asked many, many people to die for their faith, so the Pope should have been willing to do the same! As you know, I am a Christian, so I believe he will have to account to God for what he did and what he did not do!
In recent years, I have not had access to primary sources but I have read several articles, and seen a couple of programmes, that make it clear that Hitler wanted to wipe Christianity out of Germany because he believed that the German people owed all their allegiance and loyalty to the state. He was very unforgiving of anyone who put other loyalties first. In other words, he was a typical dictator. However, he was astute enough to know that he could not fight the Christian faith and the Jewish faith at the same time, so it suited him to court the Christians while he persecuted the Jews.
To their eternal shame (or, as I claim to be a Christian, perhaps that should be, 'to our eternal shame') only a tiny minority of Christians had the common sense to realise where it would all end and even fewer of them cared enough, or had the courage, to stand up against the Nazis. For most of them, by the time they realised, it was already too late! (I'm having a senior moment right now and so I cannot remember the name of the person I am thinking of, but there was a Christian pastor who was killed in a concentration camp and after the war they found a note he had left which said something like, 'They came for the Jews but I was not a Jew so I did nothing. They came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did nothing. Then they came for me and there was no one left to do anything.' (Sorry the quote isn't exact but I'll Google it tomorrow, if I have time.)
Of course anti-semitism was rife throughout Europe (including Britain) in the past. And yes, it did exist in the 20th century, before Hitler came to power. And, even more shamefully, it still exists and I have no doubt that it will continue to exist long after I am dead and gone.
Believe it or not, it breaks my heart which is why I do whatever I can, whenever I can, to counter this type of bigotry and hatred. And, furthermore, I am proud to be a member of a church that feels as strongly about this as I do! A couple of years ago the BNP descended on my neighbourhood and leafletted every house with the most foul, antisemitic literature I had ever seen (not including historical documents, of course!) Anyway, my church decided that we could not let it pass unchallenged! We printed our own leaflets and put them through every letterbox in the area. One of our members (quite an elderly man) was physically attacked but he chose not even to defend himself because he thought that if he used violence against them (even in self-defence) he would be playing into their hands. Also, for more than 20 years now, my church has invited the small Jewish community to use our Parish Rooms for their Saturday worship as there is no synagogue in our small town. Of course, we know we cannot make up for what misguided people have done in the past, but we can do our utmost to try to prevent it from happening again!
I fail to see why you even mention 'family values' or Hitler's homophobia. Neither of these prove that Hitler was a Christian, which seems to be what you are trying to prove. Both of these attitudes are rife within the general community - especially among the older generation, my peer group - but that has far more to do with the way we were brought up, rather than any religious beliefs. (Don't forget, when I was young, homosexuality was actually illegal!) Even so, I have rejected the attitudes that were prevalent in my youth and I have made up my own mind about these matters. (I do not wish to take the time to repeat my views on homosexuality here but you can find them in the homosexuality thread, if you care to look. In fact, it was because of something that was said in that thread that I started this one.)
Finally, I would say this. Of course there have been religious feuds and religious wars. Of course there have been Christians who have behaved badly. That was precisely why I started this thread. But I'm afraid you are very much mistaken if you think that atheists are any different. They do the same things. They love and they hate as many different types of people as Christians do. After all, we are all human, aren't we? There are good and bad people in every country, every walk of life, every religion and among those who have no religion at all. There are only three differences between Christians and atheists:
1. Atheists cannot conveniently hide their innate cruelty behind convenient quotes from the Bible and the idea that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.
2. Atheists have no one outside of themselves calling them to deny their human nature and strive for something better.
3. When Christians behave badly, they dishonour their God and their Saviour. When atheists behave badly, they dishonour no one but themselves - unless of course, despite what they believe, they are also dishonouring their God and their Saviour! :-6
Dare I say it? Yes, I will - because I mean it ....
God bless!
Hitler was raised a catholic, germany was a christian country where religion played a big part. He would never have started on the christians if the pope had actually condemned hitler and what he was doing he would have had serious problems-what would catholics do obey the pope or the leader of the state. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. .....
Where did you get the idea the nazis were going to ban religion? Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. ...... Hitler, like some of today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." Have a look at some of the films made by the nazis extolling the virties of a good aryan family life if you want to see what i mean. He liked corporal punishment in home and in school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. ......
Anti-semitism was commonplace throughout europe at the time which is easy to forget. That the jews were the killers of christ was almost a tenet of christian belief and the justification for much of the hatred. ......
That Hitler was atheist is a convenient rewriting of history. ......
Hi gmc!
I see that you are British so I probably don't have to explain to you about the Open University and the rather unusual way its students can study for a degree. As you may know, students do not have to choose one subject and study only that subject. They can study history this year and literature next year and geography the following year. For my degree, I chose to fluctuate between my two favourite subjects - history and literature. As part of my degree, I did a major study on the causes of the Second World War, but I got so interested in what it is that causes a man - and a country - to go so far off the rails, that I have been studying the subject (on and off) ever since. I am also a History Channel addict, although the lack of depth in most of the programmes often drives me crazy!! So you will not be surprised when I say that you have told me nothing I did not already know.
Firstly, I was very careful not to say that Hitler was an atheist. I said he was a non-Christian, which is factually accurate. He may have been brought up a Catholic but that doesn't make him a Catholic - or a Christian of any kind - in adulthood! At least half of the people I know who were brought up Catholics - or Anglicans or Methodists - now describe themselves as agnostics or atheists. In fact, there is a lot of evidence (which I must admit has recently been called into question) that Hitler was obsessed by the occult. Hardly a Christian activity!
Secondly, I would never defend the Pope's decision not to denounce Hitler and his fascist pals. There can be no excuse for staying silent in the face of such evil. Nevertheless - and this is no excuse - from what I have read, he thought his first duty was to protect Catholics and he was worried that Hitler (who no longer claimed to be a Catholic) would turn on them next if the Pope denounced him. He probably also thought he himself was very vulnerable as the Vatican is right in the middle of Rome! That is still no excuse. The Church has asked many, many people to die for their faith, so the Pope should have been willing to do the same! As you know, I am a Christian, so I believe he will have to account to God for what he did and what he did not do!
In recent years, I have not had access to primary sources but I have read several articles, and seen a couple of programmes, that make it clear that Hitler wanted to wipe Christianity out of Germany because he believed that the German people owed all their allegiance and loyalty to the state. He was very unforgiving of anyone who put other loyalties first. In other words, he was a typical dictator. However, he was astute enough to know that he could not fight the Christian faith and the Jewish faith at the same time, so it suited him to court the Christians while he persecuted the Jews.
To their eternal shame (or, as I claim to be a Christian, perhaps that should be, 'to our eternal shame') only a tiny minority of Christians had the common sense to realise where it would all end and even fewer of them cared enough, or had the courage, to stand up against the Nazis. For most of them, by the time they realised, it was already too late! (I'm having a senior moment right now and so I cannot remember the name of the person I am thinking of, but there was a Christian pastor who was killed in a concentration camp and after the war they found a note he had left which said something like, 'They came for the Jews but I was not a Jew so I did nothing. They came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did nothing. Then they came for me and there was no one left to do anything.' (Sorry the quote isn't exact but I'll Google it tomorrow, if I have time.)
Of course anti-semitism was rife throughout Europe (including Britain) in the past. And yes, it did exist in the 20th century, before Hitler came to power. And, even more shamefully, it still exists and I have no doubt that it will continue to exist long after I am dead and gone.
Believe it or not, it breaks my heart which is why I do whatever I can, whenever I can, to counter this type of bigotry and hatred. And, furthermore, I am proud to be a member of a church that feels as strongly about this as I do! A couple of years ago the BNP descended on my neighbourhood and leafletted every house with the most foul, antisemitic literature I had ever seen (not including historical documents, of course!) Anyway, my church decided that we could not let it pass unchallenged! We printed our own leaflets and put them through every letterbox in the area. One of our members (quite an elderly man) was physically attacked but he chose not even to defend himself because he thought that if he used violence against them (even in self-defence) he would be playing into their hands. Also, for more than 20 years now, my church has invited the small Jewish community to use our Parish Rooms for their Saturday worship as there is no synagogue in our small town. Of course, we know we cannot make up for what misguided people have done in the past, but we can do our utmost to try to prevent it from happening again!
I fail to see why you even mention 'family values' or Hitler's homophobia. Neither of these prove that Hitler was a Christian, which seems to be what you are trying to prove. Both of these attitudes are rife within the general community - especially among the older generation, my peer group - but that has far more to do with the way we were brought up, rather than any religious beliefs. (Don't forget, when I was young, homosexuality was actually illegal!) Even so, I have rejected the attitudes that were prevalent in my youth and I have made up my own mind about these matters. (I do not wish to take the time to repeat my views on homosexuality here but you can find them in the homosexuality thread, if you care to look. In fact, it was because of something that was said in that thread that I started this one.)
Finally, I would say this. Of course there have been religious feuds and religious wars. Of course there have been Christians who have behaved badly. That was precisely why I started this thread. But I'm afraid you are very much mistaken if you think that atheists are any different. They do the same things. They love and they hate as many different types of people as Christians do. After all, we are all human, aren't we? There are good and bad people in every country, every walk of life, every religion and among those who have no religion at all. There are only three differences between Christians and atheists:
1. Atheists cannot conveniently hide their innate cruelty behind convenient quotes from the Bible and the idea that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.
2. Atheists have no one outside of themselves calling them to deny their human nature and strive for something better.
3. When Christians behave badly, they dishonour their God and their Saviour. When atheists behave badly, they dishonour no one but themselves - unless of course, despite what they believe, they are also dishonouring their God and their Saviour! :-6
Dare I say it? Yes, I will - because I mean it ....
God bless!
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
-
twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
[QUOTE=twistwoods;968848]
(I'm having a senior moment right now and so I cannot remember the name of the person I am thinking of, but there was a Christian pastor who was killed in a concentration camp and after the war they found a note he had left which said something like, 'They came for the Jews but I was not a Jew so I did nothing. They came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did nothing. Then they came for me and there was no one left to do anything.' (Sorry the quote isn't exact but I'll Google it tomorrow, if I have time.)
QUOTE]
Well, we live and learn, don't we? The guy who is credited with these words was someone called Niemoeller. I had heard the name many times but I had always been told he was a Christian pastor. For all I know, he could have been, but Google do not mention it. Also, I was told that he died in a concentration camp but, even though he was imprisoned in a concentration camp (Sachsenhausen) he actually survived.
Also, it seems that the poem has been altered many, many times but this is the version that Niemoeller said he preferred:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Somehow, I cannot help but feel disappointed with this version. It shouldn't matter who is mentioned first, but it does! Yes, it is a tragedy when the state starts to murder people and it doesn't matter who they are but I cannot help but believe that it is significant that the Jews were only third on Niemoeller's list, despite the fact that the vast majority of those who were murdered in the camps were Jewish. I cannot help but think that perhaps Niemoeller, who had begun as a supporter of the Nazi Party, was still reluctant to acknowledge their suffering. I could be wrong. I hope I am, but I will never feel quite the same about this poem in the future - even though I still endorse the general sentiment!
God bless.
(I'm having a senior moment right now and so I cannot remember the name of the person I am thinking of, but there was a Christian pastor who was killed in a concentration camp and after the war they found a note he had left which said something like, 'They came for the Jews but I was not a Jew so I did nothing. They came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did nothing. Then they came for me and there was no one left to do anything.' (Sorry the quote isn't exact but I'll Google it tomorrow, if I have time.)
QUOTE]
Well, we live and learn, don't we? The guy who is credited with these words was someone called Niemoeller. I had heard the name many times but I had always been told he was a Christian pastor. For all I know, he could have been, but Google do not mention it. Also, I was told that he died in a concentration camp but, even though he was imprisoned in a concentration camp (Sachsenhausen) he actually survived.
Also, it seems that the poem has been altered many, many times but this is the version that Niemoeller said he preferred:
"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Somehow, I cannot help but feel disappointed with this version. It shouldn't matter who is mentioned first, but it does! Yes, it is a tragedy when the state starts to murder people and it doesn't matter who they are but I cannot help but believe that it is significant that the Jews were only third on Niemoeller's list, despite the fact that the vast majority of those who were murdered in the camps were Jewish. I cannot help but think that perhaps Niemoeller, who had begun as a supporter of the Nazi Party, was still reluctant to acknowledge their suffering. I could be wrong. I hope I am, but I will never feel quite the same about this poem in the future - even though I still endorse the general sentiment!
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
twistwoods;968989 wrote: Somehow, I cannot help but feel disappointed with this version. It shouldn't matter who is mentioned first, but it does! Yes, it is a tragedy when the state starts to murder people and it doesn't matter who they are but I cannot help but believe that it is significant that the Jews were only third on Niemoeller's list, despite the fact that the vast majority of those who were murdered in the camps were Jewish. I cannot help but think that perhaps Niemoeller, who had begun as a supporter of the Nazi Party, was still reluctant to acknowledge their suffering. I could be wrong. I hope I am, but I will never feel quite the same about this poem in the future - even though I still endorse the general sentiment!
God bless.
It's a time-ordered list of the targets of the Nazi Party in their rise to power, not a graded scale of suffering. The list would be meaningless were it ordered differently. They came, and then they came, and then they came, and now there's nobody left to prevent them because I didn't stop them when I could. It's a list of increasing severity of persecution as a message to the last people standing.
God bless.
It's a time-ordered list of the targets of the Nazi Party in their rise to power, not a graded scale of suffering. The list would be meaningless were it ordered differently. They came, and then they came, and then they came, and now there's nobody left to prevent them because I didn't stop them when I could. It's a list of increasing severity of persecution as a message to the last people standing.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
posted by twistwoods
Finally, I would say this. Of course there have been religious feuds and religious wars. Of course there have been Christians who have behaved badly. That was precisely why I started this thread. But I'm afraid you are very much mistaken if you think that atheists are any different. They do the same things. They love and they hate as many different types of people as Christians do. After all, we are all human, aren't we? There are good and bad people in every country, every walk of life, every religion and among those who have no religion at all. There are only three differences between Christians and atheists:
1. Atheists cannot conveniently hide their innate cruelty behind convenient quotes from the Bible and the idea that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.
2. Atheists have no one outside of themselves calling them to deny their human nature and strive for something better.
3. When Christians behave badly, they dishonour their God and their Saviour. When atheists behave badly, they dishonour no one but themselves - unless of course, despite what they believe, they are also dishonouring their God and their Saviour!
I would never claim that atheists don't do bad things as well. But I find it irritating when christians come out with this notion that they are somehow more evil because they happen to be atheists and hitler did what he did because he as one-ignoring anything that doesn't match their belief. Anti-semitism was very common and institutionalised n many countries throughout the world.
He used anti-semitism and conflated it with a fear of communism to get power. Initially it was fear of communism. Many christians were later on more than happy to see the jews get what they deserved and take all their property.
Personally i don't think Hitler remained a christian but was prepared to use religion for his own ends. I can produce plenty of quotes that suggest he was a christian But I also think it's irrelevant and a bit of a red herring. If you justify it all by saying "Oh he was an atheist" you stop looking at what actually happened and how a country that pre Hitler was one of the least anti -Semitic in europe ended up with the holocaust. The real horror is how ordinary people can get swept along and end up doing things to their neighbours that would have been unthinkable shortly before. If you have a simple explanation for historical events you have probably missed something.
His first target wasn't actually the jews but the opposition parties and his first act to get power was to suspend the right to habeus corpus.
Pastor neimoller-a good christian originally was one of his supporters. There's plenty of material and his words are often misquoted depending on the particular politics of the speaker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
Try and get hold of
Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich. Ny William L Shirer if you can. He was an american jourmnalist living there throughout out the period
Ãrta: William L. Shirer
Hitler was a man of his times. have a look under eugenics as well while you're at it (he was influenced by social darwinism as well) . What we now see a horrifying many thought was perfectly sensible and justified.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
posted by twistwoods
In recent years, I have not had access to primary sources but I have read several articles, and seen a couple of programmes, that make it clear that Hitler wanted to wipe Christianity out of Germany because he believed that the German people owed all their allegiance and loyalty to the state. He was very unforgiving of anyone who put other loyalties first. In other words, he was a typical dictator. However, he was astute enough to know that he could not fight the Christian faith and the Jewish faith at the same time, so it suited him to court the Christians while he persecuted the Jews.
The internet is a powerful research tool, many primnary sources you can readily access now and the sixty year moratorium on official documents is now over. It's fascinating stuff.
posted by twistwoods
Believe it or not, it breaks my heart which is why I do whatever I can, whenever I can, to counter this type of bigotry and hatred. And, furthermore, I am proud to be a member of a church that feels as strongly about this as I do! A couple of years ago the BNP descended on my neighbourhood and leafletted every house with the most foul, antisemitic literature I had ever seen (not including historical documents, of course!) Anyway, my church decided that we could not let it pass unchallenged! We printed our own leaflets and put them through every letterbox in the area. One of our members (quite an elderly man) was physically attacked but he chose not even to defend himself because he thought that if he used violence against them (even in self-defence) he would be playing into their hands. Also, for more than 20 years now, my church has invited the small Jewish community to use our Parish Rooms for their Saturday worship as there is no synagogue in our small town. Of course, we know we cannot make up for what misguided people have done in the past, but we can do our utmost to try to prevent it from happening again!
That's the whole point about studying such events from the past Now we have the language to combat such things-if not the jews then immigrants, asylum seekers, homosexuals etc etc take what seems a reasonable concern and fan the flames of hatred. The real horror of the nazis is how so ordinary the people caught up in it all were and found they could do nothing but go along.
Actually I suppose Homosexuality is a good test case. If a religious group advocates discrimination and condemnation against homosexuality that's OK but why is it different from a political party saying the same thing.
Finally, I would say this. Of course there have been religious feuds and religious wars. Of course there have been Christians who have behaved badly. That was precisely why I started this thread. But I'm afraid you are very much mistaken if you think that atheists are any different. They do the same things. They love and they hate as many different types of people as Christians do. After all, we are all human, aren't we? There are good and bad people in every country, every walk of life, every religion and among those who have no religion at all. There are only three differences between Christians and atheists:
1. Atheists cannot conveniently hide their innate cruelty behind convenient quotes from the Bible and the idea that Jews were responsible for killing Jesus.
2. Atheists have no one outside of themselves calling them to deny their human nature and strive for something better.
3. When Christians behave badly, they dishonour their God and their Saviour. When atheists behave badly, they dishonour no one but themselves - unless of course, despite what they believe, they are also dishonouring their God and their Saviour!
I would never claim that atheists don't do bad things as well. But I find it irritating when christians come out with this notion that they are somehow more evil because they happen to be atheists and hitler did what he did because he as one-ignoring anything that doesn't match their belief. Anti-semitism was very common and institutionalised n many countries throughout the world.
He used anti-semitism and conflated it with a fear of communism to get power. Initially it was fear of communism. Many christians were later on more than happy to see the jews get what they deserved and take all their property.
Personally i don't think Hitler remained a christian but was prepared to use religion for his own ends. I can produce plenty of quotes that suggest he was a christian But I also think it's irrelevant and a bit of a red herring. If you justify it all by saying "Oh he was an atheist" you stop looking at what actually happened and how a country that pre Hitler was one of the least anti -Semitic in europe ended up with the holocaust. The real horror is how ordinary people can get swept along and end up doing things to their neighbours that would have been unthinkable shortly before. If you have a simple explanation for historical events you have probably missed something.
His first target wasn't actually the jews but the opposition parties and his first act to get power was to suspend the right to habeus corpus.
Pastor neimoller-a good christian originally was one of his supporters. There's plenty of material and his words are often misquoted depending on the particular politics of the speaker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
Try and get hold of
Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich. Ny William L Shirer if you can. He was an american jourmnalist living there throughout out the period
Ãrta: William L. Shirer
Hitler was a man of his times. have a look under eugenics as well while you're at it (he was influenced by social darwinism as well) . What we now see a horrifying many thought was perfectly sensible and justified.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
posted by twistwoods
In recent years, I have not had access to primary sources but I have read several articles, and seen a couple of programmes, that make it clear that Hitler wanted to wipe Christianity out of Germany because he believed that the German people owed all their allegiance and loyalty to the state. He was very unforgiving of anyone who put other loyalties first. In other words, he was a typical dictator. However, he was astute enough to know that he could not fight the Christian faith and the Jewish faith at the same time, so it suited him to court the Christians while he persecuted the Jews.
The internet is a powerful research tool, many primnary sources you can readily access now and the sixty year moratorium on official documents is now over. It's fascinating stuff.
posted by twistwoods
Believe it or not, it breaks my heart which is why I do whatever I can, whenever I can, to counter this type of bigotry and hatred. And, furthermore, I am proud to be a member of a church that feels as strongly about this as I do! A couple of years ago the BNP descended on my neighbourhood and leafletted every house with the most foul, antisemitic literature I had ever seen (not including historical documents, of course!) Anyway, my church decided that we could not let it pass unchallenged! We printed our own leaflets and put them through every letterbox in the area. One of our members (quite an elderly man) was physically attacked but he chose not even to defend himself because he thought that if he used violence against them (even in self-defence) he would be playing into their hands. Also, for more than 20 years now, my church has invited the small Jewish community to use our Parish Rooms for their Saturday worship as there is no synagogue in our small town. Of course, we know we cannot make up for what misguided people have done in the past, but we can do our utmost to try to prevent it from happening again!
That's the whole point about studying such events from the past Now we have the language to combat such things-if not the jews then immigrants, asylum seekers, homosexuals etc etc take what seems a reasonable concern and fan the flames of hatred. The real horror of the nazis is how so ordinary the people caught up in it all were and found they could do nothing but go along.
Actually I suppose Homosexuality is a good test case. If a religious group advocates discrimination and condemnation against homosexuality that's OK but why is it different from a political party saying the same thing.
-
twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
gmc;969006 wrote:
I would never claim that atheists don't do bad things as well. But I find it irritating when christians come out with this notion that they are somehow more evil because they happen to be atheists and hitler did what he did because he as one-ignoring anything that doesn't match their belief. Anti-semitism was very common and institutionalised n many countries throughout the world.
I can't argue with anything you've said in this post. I think we are basically very much on the same wavelength -despite our disagreements about religion. I even know what you mean about some Christians being very blinkered and prejudiced. It probably applies to me too but I really do try to take the blinkers off and see everyone for what they really are - human beings, just like me - trying to make sense of the few short years we have on this beautiful planet.
Even so, I do sometimes get irritated with atheists who try to say that all Christians are hypocrites, all Christians are homophobic or all Christians are antisemitic. That has honestly not been my experience - except on some forums! :-5 And it is precisely because I want to build bridges between Christians and others (whoever they may be) that I spend so much time on the Internet, trying to show Christians - and anyone else who is interested - that we do not have to be at war with each other. In fact, the more I read the New Testament, the more convinced I become that the most strident Christians are not following the example of Jesus, whom they profess to worship!
At the risk of boring you rigid, can I share a poem with you? It is a poem my dad taught me and I think it is a wonderful lesson to all Christians who spend their lives judging other people instead of loving them! I know you won't agree with the central premise - that there is a God - but I also think you might understand why it is massively different from what many Christians believe and why I believe it is a lot nearer to the truth about the God I have come to love. Anyway, give it a go and see what you think.
"Abou Ben Adhem"
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."
The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!
-- By Leigh Hunt.
God bless.
I would never claim that atheists don't do bad things as well. But I find it irritating when christians come out with this notion that they are somehow more evil because they happen to be atheists and hitler did what he did because he as one-ignoring anything that doesn't match their belief. Anti-semitism was very common and institutionalised n many countries throughout the world.
I can't argue with anything you've said in this post. I think we are basically very much on the same wavelength -despite our disagreements about religion. I even know what you mean about some Christians being very blinkered and prejudiced. It probably applies to me too but I really do try to take the blinkers off and see everyone for what they really are - human beings, just like me - trying to make sense of the few short years we have on this beautiful planet.
Even so, I do sometimes get irritated with atheists who try to say that all Christians are hypocrites, all Christians are homophobic or all Christians are antisemitic. That has honestly not been my experience - except on some forums! :-5 And it is precisely because I want to build bridges between Christians and others (whoever they may be) that I spend so much time on the Internet, trying to show Christians - and anyone else who is interested - that we do not have to be at war with each other. In fact, the more I read the New Testament, the more convinced I become that the most strident Christians are not following the example of Jesus, whom they profess to worship!
At the risk of boring you rigid, can I share a poem with you? It is a poem my dad taught me and I think it is a wonderful lesson to all Christians who spend their lives judging other people instead of loving them! I know you won't agree with the central premise - that there is a God - but I also think you might understand why it is massively different from what many Christians believe and why I believe it is a lot nearer to the truth about the God I have come to love. Anyway, give it a go and see what you think.
"Abou Ben Adhem"
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."
The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!
-- By Leigh Hunt.
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
-
twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
spot;968991 wrote: It's a time-ordered list of the targets of the Nazi Party in their rise to power, not a graded scale of suffering. The list would be meaningless were it ordered differently. They came, and then they came, and then they came, and now there's nobody left to prevent them because I didn't stop them when I could. It's a list of increasing severity of persecution as a message to the last people standing.
Thank you for that information! It makes perfect sense now. I honestly don't know why I didn't realise that. It is so obvious - now that you have pointed it out! Thank you so much because it means that I can now go back to believing 100% in its message.
God bless.
Thank you for that information! It makes perfect sense now. I honestly don't know why I didn't realise that. It is so obvious - now that you have pointed it out! Thank you so much because it means that I can now go back to believing 100% in its message.
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
-
twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
jimbo;969001 wrote: well maybe god does not play loud music untill 3 am and slam doors until stupid o'clock in the morning 
but in my nieghbours defence millions of people have not died in stupid wars fighting in his name
its a toughie i'll get back to you:-3
Well, with a neighbour like that, no wonder people aren't prepared to go to war for his sake! Personally, I'd be too busy squeezing the last gasp of breath out of his body!!! I'd take my chances with God afterwards! :yh_giggle
but in my nieghbours defence millions of people have not died in stupid wars fighting in his name
its a toughie i'll get back to you:-3
Well, with a neighbour like that, no wonder people aren't prepared to go to war for his sake! Personally, I'd be too busy squeezing the last gasp of breath out of his body!!! I'd take my chances with God afterwards! :yh_giggle
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
Why do we find it so easy to love God but so hard to love our neighbour?
posted by twistwoods
Even so, I do sometimes get irritated with atheists who try to say that all Christians are hypocrites, all Christians are homophobic or all Christians are antisemitic. That has honestly not been my experience - except on some forums! And it is precisely because I want to build bridges between Christians and others (whoever they may be) that I spend so much time on the Internet, trying to show Christians - and anyone else who is interested - that we do not have to be at war with each other. In fact, the more I read the New Testament, the more convinced I become that the most strident Christians are not following the example of Jesus, whom they profess to worship!
I suppose people who post in forums like this one on these kind of topics are the ones who feel the strongest about these kind of things. Bigotry thrives on disagreement and dissent but you kind of have to keep feeding the beast as it were.
Even so, I do sometimes get irritated with atheists who try to say that all Christians are hypocrites, all Christians are homophobic or all Christians are antisemitic. That has honestly not been my experience - except on some forums! And it is precisely because I want to build bridges between Christians and others (whoever they may be) that I spend so much time on the Internet, trying to show Christians - and anyone else who is interested - that we do not have to be at war with each other. In fact, the more I read the New Testament, the more convinced I become that the most strident Christians are not following the example of Jesus, whom they profess to worship!
I suppose people who post in forums like this one on these kind of topics are the ones who feel the strongest about these kind of things. Bigotry thrives on disagreement and dissent but you kind of have to keep feeding the beast as it were.