jester wrote:
Bush isnt a fundamentalist, and I wouldnt call Hagee nore Wright a christian, I'd call them wolves in sheeps clothing.
Bush is excluded,, only because I recognize when someone is being told what to say,, without any acting ability required,, Hey I believed Reagan,, now there was a performer,,,,,,,,,,,The Academy missed a presentation...
My personnel opinion,, Wright shouldn't even be in the same ballpark with Hagee,
The comparisons are just more judgements without study,, My theory is,, bunch them together,, know matter what,, and we block any truth from either...
gmc wrote:
I'll take your word about Bush. I thought he was. as to hagee and wright the term ba-heid seems appropriate. you have my permission to borrow if you wish to impress your friends with knowledge of foreign words.
This is what the political strategist studys,, how we come to conclusions,, how we think,, what are the key phrases that bring standard responses,,, I'll take your word,,, is one of these,,,
sounds like I calculate to much don't it? Elections decide the slicing of the pie!
They don't make six figures for twiddling their thumbs....
You say religion is a taboo subject in your politics,,,
Do your politicians go to church at all? Do they not count on congregations as voting blocks?
I got a feeling taboo means,, its not publicly acknowledged,,
sort of like our politicians hide their love of "ladies of the night",,
Do you truly believe there are not levels of cooperation with religions that are merely not for public inspection?
There isn't a political strategist worth his/her salt that wouldn't consider such transactions,,,:yh_money ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:yh_glasse
All guests are welcome,,,,,,,
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
jester wrote:
Doc, Pat Tillmans death was a tragedy, what happend after was typical of humanity trying to bring reason out of chaos, it was still wrong. It would have been best to tell the truth all around from begining to end. I do belive he would have joined up no matter what, he fits the type, hero without thought a blind patriot indeed, they almost never survive.
Youve found a place where there are lots of voices, good ones, ones that have made me think through many things as they get laid out in the conversations we have here. We get passionate, mixed up, and sometimes heated, but in the end we seem to congeal in our differences having learned a bit more from each other in the process. Its all good even though we get a few bumps here and there.
If you want to discuss the war or specifically Pat Tillman, just start another thread, I'd be happy to join in. I must say to you though in all honesty that your writing style makes it somewhat difficult to follow you at times. I am slightly off track when I reply Im sure.
I can see this site has many different themes,, Focus is a destination for me,, I'm working on it,, but in the journey I know,, I can get off on a ramble that hits things in a somewhat scrambled mode, sliced and dice,,sprinkled with the idiotic ravings of what maybe sounds off key,, or maybe hiding what I'm truly trying to shine light on,, but every now and then I'll hear that sound a batter hears when he hits the sweet spot,,,, not as often as I'd like but,, but enough to keep me going.. Sometimes the edit button is my best friend,,
Someone called me the awright student,, today,, and I was grateful!
Jester,, I believe you hold your own anywhere you go!
I look forward to more discussion.
Doc, Pat Tillmans death was a tragedy, what happend after was typical of humanity trying to bring reason out of chaos, it was still wrong. It would have been best to tell the truth all around from begining to end. I do belive he would have joined up no matter what, he fits the type, hero without thought a blind patriot indeed, they almost never survive.
Youve found a place where there are lots of voices, good ones, ones that have made me think through many things as they get laid out in the conversations we have here. We get passionate, mixed up, and sometimes heated, but in the end we seem to congeal in our differences having learned a bit more from each other in the process. Its all good even though we get a few bumps here and there.
If you want to discuss the war or specifically Pat Tillman, just start another thread, I'd be happy to join in. I must say to you though in all honesty that your writing style makes it somewhat difficult to follow you at times. I am slightly off track when I reply Im sure.
I can see this site has many different themes,, Focus is a destination for me,, I'm working on it,, but in the journey I know,, I can get off on a ramble that hits things in a somewhat scrambled mode, sliced and dice,,sprinkled with the idiotic ravings of what maybe sounds off key,, or maybe hiding what I'm truly trying to shine light on,, but every now and then I'll hear that sound a batter hears when he hits the sweet spot,,,, not as often as I'd like but,, but enough to keep me going.. Sometimes the edit button is my best friend,,
Someone called me the awright student,, today,, and I was grateful!
Jester,, I believe you hold your own anywhere you go!
I look forward to more discussion.
-
nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
LL I CAN SAY .................You must be freaking joking - the man is a lunatic................he has NO POLITICALLLY CORRECT statements to mak.
As a white woman making it on my own as so many of us are. Obama lost my support with this ass, Evedentelly Hillary liked him at one time too. What is up with that???These danged Democrats are in a sad place - fight - fight - fight. It reminds of the movie "fight night" when the guy was psycho and fighting himself. I would not mind some of that money trickeling down to us.
As a white woman making it on my own as so many of us are. Obama lost my support with this ass, Evedentelly Hillary liked him at one time too. What is up with that???These danged Democrats are in a sad place - fight - fight - fight. It reminds of the movie "fight night" when the guy was psycho and fighting himself. I would not mind some of that money trickeling down to us.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
nvalleyvee;863095 wrote: LL I CAN SAY .................You must be freaking joking - the man is a lunatic................he has NO POLITICALLLY CORRECT statements to mak.
As a white woman making it on my own as so many of us are. Obama lost my support with this ass, Evedentelly Hillary liked him at one time too. What is up with that???These danged Democrats are in a sad place - fight - fight - fight. It reminds of the movie "fight night" when the guy was psycho and fighting himself. I would not mind some of that money trickeling down to us.
Hi valley
Well dear if I thought like that I wouldn't be able to vote for any catholics,, What exactly about Obama made you jump ship? I assume from your statement you had been on it... I am interested how these political strategies work on us reg folk.
The sermon,, or the first half of it is on the thread if you haven't read it,,
Page 10 there's a link given by Accountable that takes you to the whole sermon.
I have to agree the democrats are much more diverse than the republicans,, but some look at that as an asset as well..............Talk to me!:-6
As a white woman making it on my own as so many of us are. Obama lost my support with this ass, Evedentelly Hillary liked him at one time too. What is up with that???These danged Democrats are in a sad place - fight - fight - fight. It reminds of the movie "fight night" when the guy was psycho and fighting himself. I would not mind some of that money trickeling down to us.
Hi valley
Well dear if I thought like that I wouldn't be able to vote for any catholics,, What exactly about Obama made you jump ship? I assume from your statement you had been on it... I am interested how these political strategies work on us reg folk.
The sermon,, or the first half of it is on the thread if you haven't read it,,
Page 10 there's a link given by Accountable that takes you to the whole sermon.
I have to agree the democrats are much more diverse than the republicans,, but some look at that as an asset as well..............Talk to me!:-6
-
nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
I never jumped ship on Obama - and i don't intend to vote for him.....that religious zealot has really pissed me off. Mister black man from hell..
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
nvalleyvee;863103 wrote: I never jumped ship on Obama - and i don't intend to vote for him.....that religious zealot has really pissed me off. Mister black man from hell..
[moderator note: this and the previous post have had an offensive clause and word deleted]
omg,,,,,,,,,,,,,have you no shame,,,:sneaky:
How can a nice lady such as yourself have that kind of judgemental attitude toward someone you have never met?
Don't you make me put you on my people I must save list:wah:
You said he lost your vote,, I assumed he had had it once...
Let me ask you this,, if Obama was white would you have given him the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned the trickle down,,, so dark the con of man,,, Bush1 con of the century,,,,,,,New World Order plan.....
Don't you feel for us poor people out here,,
hey some of us are White ya know:yh_hypno
Tell me what about the Rev Wright issue bothered you the most?
It doesn't matter how you vote,,, to me,, but I would love to hear your thoughts on what specificly bothered you about hearing these news clips of a sermon that happened 5 years ago?:yh_glasse
[moderator note: this and the previous post have had an offensive clause and word deleted]
omg,,,,,,,,,,,,,have you no shame,,,:sneaky:
How can a nice lady such as yourself have that kind of judgemental attitude toward someone you have never met?
Don't you make me put you on my people I must save list:wah:
You said he lost your vote,, I assumed he had had it once...
Let me ask you this,, if Obama was white would you have given him the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned the trickle down,,, so dark the con of man,,, Bush1 con of the century,,,,,,,New World Order plan.....
Don't you feel for us poor people out here,,
hey some of us are White ya know:yh_hypno
Tell me what about the Rev Wright issue bothered you the most?
It doesn't matter how you vote,,, to me,, but I would love to hear your thoughts on what specificly bothered you about hearing these news clips of a sermon that happened 5 years ago?:yh_glasse
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
posted by jester
ahahaha well I do lean more libertarian if thats your goal. You keep using an archaic or UK term for liberal, in the US it doesnt mean what you refer to it as, but keep trying!
I'm well aware the meaning has changed in the US-although your dictionaries still have the same definition. It's newspeak in action-if you can change the meaning of words that once meant so much you can control political debate. For a nation supposedly founded on the principles of individual liberty it is an intriguing development. Same with the word socialist-over here if you claim to be a socialist the next question is what kind. Even the tories hold to some socialist ideals if only because not dong so renders them unelectable. we pick and choose from across the political spectrum taking the best ideas and using them where they suit.-O.K maybe we don't in reality but I'd like to think we do.
Liberal and libertarian have the same language root but has slightly different connotation's over here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
The first known use of a term that has been translated as "libertarian" in a political sense was by anarcho-communist Joseph Déjacque[21], who used the French term libertaire in a letter to Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857.[22] The word stems from the French word libertaire (synonymous to "for liberty"), and was used in order to evade the French ban on liberty publications.[23]
Many republicans and democrats still use the term (e.g., terms translatable as "libertarian") are used as a synonym for liberty in many non-English languages, like French, Italian and so on), and in the English language "for the people" and "by the people" are often referred to as "libertarian ideology" or "libertarian society", respectively, to distinguish it from authoritarian Plutocracy varieties of democracy and republics. In the United States, however, Libertarian (spelled with a Capital L) refers to members of the American Libertarian party, whose politics might be described as classical conservatism. Those who support similar policies but are not members of the Libertarian party are known as libertarians or patriots in the United States and much of the English-speaking world.
This form of libertarianism, in contrast to the republicans forms, draws heavily on classical liberals, a modern term often used interchangeably with libertarianism. This concept arose from Enlightenment ideas in Europe and America, including the political philosophies of John Locke and the Baron de Montesquieu, and the moral and economic philosophy of Adam Smith. By the late 18th century, these ideas quickly spread with the Industrial Revolution throughout the Western world.
Sad git that I am I find such things fascinating. American politics seems incredibly polarised.
posted by drj
You say religion is a taboo subject in your politics,,,
Do your politicians go to church at all? Do they not count on congregations as voting blocks?
I got a feeling taboo means,, its not publicly acknowledged,,
sort of like our politicians hide their love of "ladies of the night",,
I can only give you my own perspective on it. It's not taboo but a candidates faith isn't really an issue unless he makes it one and nine times put of ten they are no longer viable candidates if they do. Religion and politics very rapidly become sectarian and nasty. We had major wars on religion and at one point ended up with a christian fundamentalist military dictatorship. I have seen it suggested that the experience is burned in to our subconscious and is one reason extremist groups tend not to get very far. I have my doubts about that but any religious party has little chance of success and every time a church leader laments and tries to influence people the general reaction is they should mind their own business.
The issue is simple, who rules and who tells you how to think and vote. Let's say for example the pope condemned the war in Iraq and ordered all Catholics not to fight on pain of excommunication. What would be the reaction in the states? Currently in the UK church leaders are asking MP's to vote as their religion dictates on a bill about embryo research. To most the decision should be based on the scientific argument. With abortion most think that religious groups do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone, especially when combined with the hypocrisy of trying to ban sex education as well. It's up to the parents and the individual not the church to decide not the church to dictate. Most people don't like to be told what to think. Praise the lord and he will make things better just doesn't hack it.
In the last scottish election the christian party fielded 72 candidates they got 30,000 votes and no seats.
ahahaha well I do lean more libertarian if thats your goal. You keep using an archaic or UK term for liberal, in the US it doesnt mean what you refer to it as, but keep trying!
I'm well aware the meaning has changed in the US-although your dictionaries still have the same definition. It's newspeak in action-if you can change the meaning of words that once meant so much you can control political debate. For a nation supposedly founded on the principles of individual liberty it is an intriguing development. Same with the word socialist-over here if you claim to be a socialist the next question is what kind. Even the tories hold to some socialist ideals if only because not dong so renders them unelectable. we pick and choose from across the political spectrum taking the best ideas and using them where they suit.-O.K maybe we don't in reality but I'd like to think we do.
Liberal and libertarian have the same language root but has slightly different connotation's over here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
The first known use of a term that has been translated as "libertarian" in a political sense was by anarcho-communist Joseph Déjacque[21], who used the French term libertaire in a letter to Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857.[22] The word stems from the French word libertaire (synonymous to "for liberty"), and was used in order to evade the French ban on liberty publications.[23]
Many republicans and democrats still use the term (e.g., terms translatable as "libertarian") are used as a synonym for liberty in many non-English languages, like French, Italian and so on), and in the English language "for the people" and "by the people" are often referred to as "libertarian ideology" or "libertarian society", respectively, to distinguish it from authoritarian Plutocracy varieties of democracy and republics. In the United States, however, Libertarian (spelled with a Capital L) refers to members of the American Libertarian party, whose politics might be described as classical conservatism. Those who support similar policies but are not members of the Libertarian party are known as libertarians or patriots in the United States and much of the English-speaking world.
This form of libertarianism, in contrast to the republicans forms, draws heavily on classical liberals, a modern term often used interchangeably with libertarianism. This concept arose from Enlightenment ideas in Europe and America, including the political philosophies of John Locke and the Baron de Montesquieu, and the moral and economic philosophy of Adam Smith. By the late 18th century, these ideas quickly spread with the Industrial Revolution throughout the Western world.
Sad git that I am I find such things fascinating. American politics seems incredibly polarised.
posted by drj
You say religion is a taboo subject in your politics,,,
Do your politicians go to church at all? Do they not count on congregations as voting blocks?
I got a feeling taboo means,, its not publicly acknowledged,,
sort of like our politicians hide their love of "ladies of the night",,
I can only give you my own perspective on it. It's not taboo but a candidates faith isn't really an issue unless he makes it one and nine times put of ten they are no longer viable candidates if they do. Religion and politics very rapidly become sectarian and nasty. We had major wars on religion and at one point ended up with a christian fundamentalist military dictatorship. I have seen it suggested that the experience is burned in to our subconscious and is one reason extremist groups tend not to get very far. I have my doubts about that but any religious party has little chance of success and every time a church leader laments and tries to influence people the general reaction is they should mind their own business.
The issue is simple, who rules and who tells you how to think and vote. Let's say for example the pope condemned the war in Iraq and ordered all Catholics not to fight on pain of excommunication. What would be the reaction in the states? Currently in the UK church leaders are asking MP's to vote as their religion dictates on a bill about embryo research. To most the decision should be based on the scientific argument. With abortion most think that religious groups do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone, especially when combined with the hypocrisy of trying to ban sex education as well. It's up to the parents and the individual not the church to decide not the church to dictate. Most people don't like to be told what to think. Praise the lord and he will make things better just doesn't hack it.
In the last scottish election the christian party fielded 72 candidates they got 30,000 votes and no seats.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
gmc wrote: The issue is simple, who rules and who tells you how to think and vote. Let's say for example the pope condemned the war in Iraq and ordered all Catholics not to fight on pain of excommunication. What would be the reaction in the states? Currently in the UK church leaders are asking MP's to vote as their religion dictates on a bill about embryo research. To most the decision should be based on the scientific argument. With abortion most think that religious groups do not have the right to impose their beliefs on anyone, especially when combined with the hypocrisy of trying to ban sex education as well. It's up to the parents and the individual not the church to decide not the church to dictate. Most people don't like to be told what to think. Praise the lord and he will make things better just doesn't hack it.
In the last scottish election the christian party fielded 72 candidates they got 30,000 votes and no seats.
I think the reality,,, is as far as government goes,, we are very close to what you describe,, our differences is in voter awareness of these obvious realities,,
People go to church and are asked to vote as the church believes,,,,
On wedge issues,,The unborn,,, the gay rights,,marriage and now they have changed it to civil unions,, and stem cell research is hanging in there,, and people vote the church way,, but a funny thing always happens,, nothing meaningful ever changes,, and every election they come out with the same ole,,same ole,, but government never changes its stance on abortion,,gay marriage,,which to me is something to do with tax code,, or benefits or something to that effect,, and they throw in the 2nd amendment,,guns,,,I call it the God/Guns and $$ con..
The gay issue is the craziest thing I've ever seen,, it's been changed to civil unions to pacify religion,,
I would think if you were against Gays you'd let them marry and find the same hell that us straight people have known for centuries! Thats just me..
The rich are better off going with these candidates,, but the less fortunate of Americans lose the money deal by voting this way, most havent caught on,, and when this is brought up,, it is taken as an insult,, and a lot of people driven back even further from the economic realities,, it's an amazing phenomenon in American politics,, I think anyway,, I'm sure people will dispute,, but I stick by it,,
My thinking about how to read whats really going on is finding multi news and piece them together,, and try to fill in the blanks, as best I can,,
My comments about things concerning religion and political ties are deeper than what appears on the surface,, sometimes,, hidden agendas are common in our government,, all you need do is study history,, its key to understanding how things can be thrown in under the radar,,, without a population the wiser,,
Even if I'm wrong about this,, its been a lot more interesting watching the games governments play,, to increase its pie....:-6:-6
xyz wrote: ]Maybe Christians think that Wright is a capitalist puppet, along with Graham, Ratzinger, Ham, etc. Maybe this is all a stunt, like almost everything in politics, and Christians have far better things to do than give this hoopla attention.
I went back through the thread and found this,, how I missed this one I'll never know,, I have always wondered how republicans could convince so many people to vote against their own wallet in so many elections,, and it led me to the thought that maybe these televangelist have been making backroom deals with sponserships,, by selling the Corporate machine this bill of goods of how they can manipulate large crowds of people,, and convince them to give up their own economic interests, and let God take care of their bills,, as of course God will if you vote pro life,, against gay marriage, and pray for the US troops in their upcoming battle in Armegeddon,, since its going to happen anyway,,AKA Hagee & Co.
I see a lot of folks trying to tie the Rev Wright issue up in this same category, in fact I don't see the Rev anywhere close to this,, so maybe the benefit of relating the two together is for this right wing defense of its Government operations, I mean lets look,, if we dare,,:sneaky:
I want to explore this for minute,,,
Posing the Rev Wright in this field of crazies serves two purposes for us white republicans,, and the alternative of not attacking the character of this man.
A realization that;
#1,,,,,we are no better at picking leaders than any of the gang bangers we see out in the streets that we look down our noses at,, as just a bunch of children who havent even begun to open their eyes to the realities of this life, and if we don't throw Rev Wright under this bus,, as a racist Black man of division,, people may start realizing this and not take us white Republicans seriously,, that maybe we don't have a clue as to what makes for good leadership.
#2,,,,,,,,,,,We have an election coming up that threatens all the progress the Bush/Cheney administration has made in its trickle philosophy of Bush 1,,, which is by taking care of the upper class monetarily,, we insure a prosperous nation as a whole,, well this trickle down con of the century,, I have always called it,, is showing results quite the opposite,, that taking care of corporate America has shown nothing positive as to those who their windfall was supposed to trickle to,, they have passed their savings on to no-one
The distraction of the Rev Wright issue isn't over by along shot,, so all build up to a general election must be negative,,,,,,,,,,,,,,clouding is nasty buisiness,,,,,,,,,,,,What a plan,,!!!
Am I crazy,,,,,but is this a plausible reason to condemn a man we don't even know?:sneaky:
In the last scottish election the christian party fielded 72 candidates they got 30,000 votes and no seats.
I think the reality,,, is as far as government goes,, we are very close to what you describe,, our differences is in voter awareness of these obvious realities,,
People go to church and are asked to vote as the church believes,,,,
On wedge issues,,The unborn,,, the gay rights,,marriage and now they have changed it to civil unions,, and stem cell research is hanging in there,, and people vote the church way,, but a funny thing always happens,, nothing meaningful ever changes,, and every election they come out with the same ole,,same ole,, but government never changes its stance on abortion,,gay marriage,,which to me is something to do with tax code,, or benefits or something to that effect,, and they throw in the 2nd amendment,,guns,,,I call it the God/Guns and $$ con..
The gay issue is the craziest thing I've ever seen,, it's been changed to civil unions to pacify religion,,
I would think if you were against Gays you'd let them marry and find the same hell that us straight people have known for centuries! Thats just me..
The rich are better off going with these candidates,, but the less fortunate of Americans lose the money deal by voting this way, most havent caught on,, and when this is brought up,, it is taken as an insult,, and a lot of people driven back even further from the economic realities,, it's an amazing phenomenon in American politics,, I think anyway,, I'm sure people will dispute,, but I stick by it,,
My thinking about how to read whats really going on is finding multi news and piece them together,, and try to fill in the blanks, as best I can,,
My comments about things concerning religion and political ties are deeper than what appears on the surface,, sometimes,, hidden agendas are common in our government,, all you need do is study history,, its key to understanding how things can be thrown in under the radar,,, without a population the wiser,,
Even if I'm wrong about this,, its been a lot more interesting watching the games governments play,, to increase its pie....:-6:-6
xyz wrote: ]Maybe Christians think that Wright is a capitalist puppet, along with Graham, Ratzinger, Ham, etc. Maybe this is all a stunt, like almost everything in politics, and Christians have far better things to do than give this hoopla attention.
I went back through the thread and found this,, how I missed this one I'll never know,, I have always wondered how republicans could convince so many people to vote against their own wallet in so many elections,, and it led me to the thought that maybe these televangelist have been making backroom deals with sponserships,, by selling the Corporate machine this bill of goods of how they can manipulate large crowds of people,, and convince them to give up their own economic interests, and let God take care of their bills,, as of course God will if you vote pro life,, against gay marriage, and pray for the US troops in their upcoming battle in Armegeddon,, since its going to happen anyway,,AKA Hagee & Co.
I see a lot of folks trying to tie the Rev Wright issue up in this same category, in fact I don't see the Rev anywhere close to this,, so maybe the benefit of relating the two together is for this right wing defense of its Government operations, I mean lets look,, if we dare,,:sneaky:
I want to explore this for minute,,,
Posing the Rev Wright in this field of crazies serves two purposes for us white republicans,, and the alternative of not attacking the character of this man.
A realization that;
#1,,,,,we are no better at picking leaders than any of the gang bangers we see out in the streets that we look down our noses at,, as just a bunch of children who havent even begun to open their eyes to the realities of this life, and if we don't throw Rev Wright under this bus,, as a racist Black man of division,, people may start realizing this and not take us white Republicans seriously,, that maybe we don't have a clue as to what makes for good leadership.
#2,,,,,,,,,,,We have an election coming up that threatens all the progress the Bush/Cheney administration has made in its trickle philosophy of Bush 1,,, which is by taking care of the upper class monetarily,, we insure a prosperous nation as a whole,, well this trickle down con of the century,, I have always called it,, is showing results quite the opposite,, that taking care of corporate America has shown nothing positive as to those who their windfall was supposed to trickle to,, they have passed their savings on to no-one
The distraction of the Rev Wright issue isn't over by along shot,, so all build up to a general election must be negative,,,,,,,,,,,,,,clouding is nasty buisiness,,,,,,,,,,,,What a plan,,!!!
Am I crazy,,,,,but is this a plausible reason to condemn a man we don't even know?:sneaky:
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ wrote: I would think if you were against Gays you'd let them marry and find the same hell that us straight people have known for centuries! Thats just me..:wah: ... :yh_beatup Sorry dear :yh_doh 
gmc;863141 wrote: I'm well aware the meaning has changed in the US-although your dictionaries still have the same definition. It's newspeak in action-if you can change the meaning of words that once meant so much you can control political debate. I think I see what you're saying - the Democratic Party, for instance - but if everyone agrees on the definition of a word, why does it matter what it used to mean? If everyone agrees that "hamburger" is only a verb meaning to slide naked down a wet sidewalk, then that's what it means. The visual is so good, I'm leaving it, but while I was typing I realized that the general consensus is that a libertarian some type of political loon, but no one can say specifically why. I'll have to give this some thought.
DAMN YOU, GMC!! :-5
gmc wrote: Sad git that I am I find such things fascinating. American politics seems incredibly polarised.Yup. Yer either for us or yer agin us. Now fill yer hand, pilgrim, or I'll shoot you where you stand. *spits*
That's a strange thing about our society, especially politics. It's really hard to point out nuance. Sound bytes don't lend themselves to it.
gmc;863141 wrote: I'm well aware the meaning has changed in the US-although your dictionaries still have the same definition. It's newspeak in action-if you can change the meaning of words that once meant so much you can control political debate. I think I see what you're saying - the Democratic Party, for instance - but if everyone agrees on the definition of a word, why does it matter what it used to mean? If everyone agrees that "hamburger" is only a verb meaning to slide naked down a wet sidewalk, then that's what it means. The visual is so good, I'm leaving it, but while I was typing I realized that the general consensus is that a libertarian some type of political loon, but no one can say specifically why.
I'll have to give this some thought.DAMN YOU, GMC!! :-5
gmc wrote: Sad git that I am I find such things fascinating. American politics seems incredibly polarised.Yup. Yer either for us or yer agin us. Now fill yer hand, pilgrim, or I'll shoot you where you stand. *spits*
That's a strange thing about our society, especially politics. It's really hard to point out nuance. Sound bytes don't lend themselves to it.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
posted by drj
I think the reality,,, is as far as government goes,, we are very close to what you describe,, our differences is in voter awareness of these obvious realities,,
People go to church and are asked to vote as the church believes,,,,
On wedge issues,,The unborn,,, the gay rights,,marriage and now they have changed it to civil unions,, and stem cell research is hanging in there,, and people vote the church way,, but a funny thing always happens,, nothing meaningful ever changes,, and every election they come out with the same ole,,same ole,, but government never changes its stance on abortion,,gay marriage,,which to me is something to do with tax code,, or benefits or something to that effect,, and they throw in the 2nd amendment,,guns,,,I call it the God/Guns and $$ con..
The gay issue is the craziest thing I've ever seen,, it's been changed to civil unions to pacify religion,,
I don't understand american politics. We have similar strands in our politics but the more extreme never really get anywhere. Every now and then american style evangelists come over and generate a bit if interest but it tails off and they never wquite get the kind of following they do in the states. One of the more depressing channels is the god channel (I have very eclectic tastes) They obviously get a lot of money and audience but I can't watch for more than a few minutes without an overwhelming urge to switch to MTV or screaming why don't you read the bible for yourself and decide. Send me a tenner and your life will prosper why does anyone fall for it? If all you study is the bible you end up with a very odd view of things.
I find the concept that people vote a certain way because the church tells them to a very odd one.
posted by drj,
,,,,,,,,,We have an election coming up that threatens all the progress the Bush/Cheney administration has made in its trickle philosophy of Bush 1,,, which is by taking care of the upper class monetarily,, we insure a prosperous nation as a whole,, well this trickle down con of the century,, I have always called it,, is showing results quite the opposite,, that taking care of corporate America has shown nothing positive as to those who their windfall was supposed to trickle to,, they have passed their savings on to no-on
New labour have tried to sell us that crap as well. Unfortunately for them we have calculators and can count. Indirect taxation hits the lowest incomes most-this idea that you can choose not to spend on some things only works if you have enough to cut back on in the first place.
posted by accountable
think I see what you're saying - the Democratic Party, for instance - but if everyone agrees on the definition of a word, why does it matter what it used to mean? If everyone agrees that "hamburger" is only a verb meaning to slide naked down a wet sidewalk, then that's what it means. The visual is so good, I'm leaving it, but while I was typing I realized that the general consensus is that a libertarian some type of political loon, but no one can say specifically why. I'll have to give this some thought.
It doesn't, english is a very eclectic lanhuage and invents new words all the time-like computer and television. The meanings change gay being one of the more obvious.
But the consensus about libertarian how did that come about and why? You know what the word means in all it's connotations so why does the general consensus affect you?
I find the best tactic is ask then why do I think that way? If you can't justify an opinion you hold then you don't actually have one-you are just repeating what you have heard and haven't thought about it. The opinion isn't yours. It's a very subtle process and hard to learn that your opinion is just as important than someone else's and probably just as right. It's hard to differ from the crowd. If it's a prejudice then see it for what it is.
I think the reality,,, is as far as government goes,, we are very close to what you describe,, our differences is in voter awareness of these obvious realities,,
People go to church and are asked to vote as the church believes,,,,
On wedge issues,,The unborn,,, the gay rights,,marriage and now they have changed it to civil unions,, and stem cell research is hanging in there,, and people vote the church way,, but a funny thing always happens,, nothing meaningful ever changes,, and every election they come out with the same ole,,same ole,, but government never changes its stance on abortion,,gay marriage,,which to me is something to do with tax code,, or benefits or something to that effect,, and they throw in the 2nd amendment,,guns,,,I call it the God/Guns and $$ con..
The gay issue is the craziest thing I've ever seen,, it's been changed to civil unions to pacify religion,,
I don't understand american politics. We have similar strands in our politics but the more extreme never really get anywhere. Every now and then american style evangelists come over and generate a bit if interest but it tails off and they never wquite get the kind of following they do in the states. One of the more depressing channels is the god channel (I have very eclectic tastes) They obviously get a lot of money and audience but I can't watch for more than a few minutes without an overwhelming urge to switch to MTV or screaming why don't you read the bible for yourself and decide. Send me a tenner and your life will prosper why does anyone fall for it? If all you study is the bible you end up with a very odd view of things.
I find the concept that people vote a certain way because the church tells them to a very odd one.
posted by drj,
,,,,,,,,,We have an election coming up that threatens all the progress the Bush/Cheney administration has made in its trickle philosophy of Bush 1,,, which is by taking care of the upper class monetarily,, we insure a prosperous nation as a whole,, well this trickle down con of the century,, I have always called it,, is showing results quite the opposite,, that taking care of corporate America has shown nothing positive as to those who their windfall was supposed to trickle to,, they have passed their savings on to no-on
New labour have tried to sell us that crap as well. Unfortunately for them we have calculators and can count. Indirect taxation hits the lowest incomes most-this idea that you can choose not to spend on some things only works if you have enough to cut back on in the first place.
posted by accountable
think I see what you're saying - the Democratic Party, for instance - but if everyone agrees on the definition of a word, why does it matter what it used to mean? If everyone agrees that "hamburger" is only a verb meaning to slide naked down a wet sidewalk, then that's what it means. The visual is so good, I'm leaving it, but while I was typing I realized that the general consensus is that a libertarian some type of political loon, but no one can say specifically why. I'll have to give this some thought.
It doesn't, english is a very eclectic lanhuage and invents new words all the time-like computer and television. The meanings change gay being one of the more obvious.
But the consensus about libertarian how did that come about and why? You know what the word means in all it's connotations so why does the general consensus affect you?
I find the best tactic is ask then why do I think that way? If you can't justify an opinion you hold then you don't actually have one-you are just repeating what you have heard and haven't thought about it. The opinion isn't yours. It's a very subtle process and hard to learn that your opinion is just as important than someone else's and probably just as right. It's hard to differ from the crowd. If it's a prejudice then see it for what it is.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
gmc;863194 wrote: But the consensus about libertarian how did that come about and why? You know what the word means in all it's connotations so why does the general consensus affect you?
I find the best tactic is ask then why do I think that way? If you can't justify an opinion you hold then you don't actually have one-you are just repeating what you have heard and haven't thought about it. The opinion isn't yours. It's a very subtle process and hard to learn that your opinion is just as important than someone else's and probably just as right. It's hard to differ from the crowd. If it's a prejudice then see it for what it is.
The general consensus affects me only in that it's damn near impossible to get anyone to even consider voting for a Libertarian Party candidate. Even if you can get them to agree to this idea or that one, the instant you say that that's what libertarians stand for, you get this almost involuntary sneer. Really frustrating.
The controlling party in two-party clothing does an excellent job of keeping their political monopoly.
I find the best tactic is ask then why do I think that way? If you can't justify an opinion you hold then you don't actually have one-you are just repeating what you have heard and haven't thought about it. The opinion isn't yours. It's a very subtle process and hard to learn that your opinion is just as important than someone else's and probably just as right. It's hard to differ from the crowd. If it's a prejudice then see it for what it is.
The general consensus affects me only in that it's damn near impossible to get anyone to even consider voting for a Libertarian Party candidate. Even if you can get them to agree to this idea or that one, the instant you say that that's what libertarians stand for, you get this almost involuntary sneer. Really frustrating.
The controlling party in two-party clothing does an excellent job of keeping their political monopoly.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
drj wrote:
I want to explore this for minute,,,
Posing the Rev Wright in this field of crazies serves two purposes for us white republicans,, and the alternative of not attacking the character of this man.
A realization that;
#1,,,,,we are no better at picking leaders than any of the gang bangers we see out in the streets that we look down our noses at,, as just a bunch of children who havent even begun to open their eyes to the realities of this life, and if we don't throw Rev Wright under this bus,, as a racist Black man of division,, people may start realizing this and not take us white Republicans seriously,, that maybe we don't have a clue as to what makes for good leadership.
#2,,,,,,,,,,,We have an election coming up that threatens all the progress the Bush/Cheney administration has made. Negativity toward wright is benefitial.
This is the interesting part for me,,only,, I personnally think its a reason being offered to those who wouldn't vote for skin color,, but need a better reason..
Just my theory,, Political stratagist,, and their insight ,, successful,,or not,
I find interesting,, lets see how it plays out. I do not paint everyone with any brush what so ever,, just the mind of the stratagist,,,Ok?:sneaky:
acc wrote: Sorry dear
I have no opinion one way or the other,, it's my basic comeback on a issue I wish not to judge...
I have the same opinion on pro choice,, in that the most important judgement of me,, for better,, for worse,, is mine and no one elses...
Therefore I have no choice but to grant that to all others...
acc wrote:
Yup. Yer either for us or yer agin us. Now fill yer hand, pilgrim, or I'll shoot you where you stand. *spits*
That's a strange thing about our society, especially politics. It's really hard to point out nuance. Sound bytes don't lend themselves to it.
You bad ass,,,American
God loves ya!! Whoever you think that may be......
gmc wrote:
I don't understand american politics. We have similar strands in our politics but the more extreme never really get anywhere. Every now and then american style evangelists come over and generate a bit if interest but it tails off and they never wquite get the kind of following they do in the states. One of the more depressing channels is the god channel (I have very eclectic tastes) They obviously get a lot of money and audience but I can't watch for more than a few minutes without an overwhelming urge to switch to MTV or screaming why don't you read the bible for yourself and decide. Send me a tenner and your life will prosper why does anyone fall for it? If all you study is the bible you end up with a very odd view of things.
I find the concept that people vote a certain way because the church tells them to a very odd one.
I think if you lived here,, and suffered some of the consequences of some of these elections over here,, you would be as I,,and be searching all over this world to understand why!! Lighting a candle,, is better than whining...
Take into account,, I am a Union Ironworker,, middle class,, and fighting to stay that way,, God forgive me!
gmc wrote:
New labour have tried to sell us that crap as well. Unfortunately for them we have calculators and can count. Indirect taxation hits the lowest incomes most-this idea that you can choose not to spend on some things only works if you have enough to cut back on in the first place.
Why can't they just share the pie,, I don't want wealth,, I don't ask for taxation,, I just know working people are worth more,, A bridge is but a dream,, a vision in the mind,,,,,, I make it a reality!:guitarist
We are all working on a bridge,,in some fashion,,, Some call it,,The Bridge between minds!!!,,I call it,,,,,,,,,,,,The Bridge Across Forever!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist
I refer you to the "bad ass American" quote above!
Jester wrote:
On Guns, (personal use) good God just try to take mine, I'll kill ya dead twice before ye get up the sidwalk and have my double 45's reholstered and before your body hits the ground. (Military use) Ok yes we need to arm our military but whatever you do dont take over another country using them, you need to use rubber bullets and just scare them into giving up if thats what it takes... but dont really kill a terrorist, just capture them and send them to Guantanimo. And of course I support you 100% you soldier you, you have a tough job the toughest in the US government, but you get paid in peanut shells and I want to 'support' you by bringing you home now, before you finished your job so that when you leave everything you fought for is meaningless, but its ok I support you.
Believe this,,,
Me and mine,, will be on your right,,your left,, and if necessary in front of you on this issue.
The absurdity that I vote against my wallet,,to keep my weapon(s) tells me this law means nothing..
The "bad ass American" was John Wayne,,,,but he has nothing on Josey fricken Wales...We do have our moments!
In the hills of Pakistan,, I will stand,, I see the rest merely a diversion,,as my blood survives in Iraq!
jester wrote:
#1 assumes that all our leaders over the last two centuries are poor leaders, and that only white amarican men are in office, when we have a race and gender mix in government. 'We the people' are more represented than we ever have been before and moving more in that direction by qualified persons, not loons. (except hillary of course she's just nuts) And further more, for whatever reasons we elected them. Throwing Rev Wright under a bus had nothing to do with race, as a matter of fact I dont see much racial netones at all in this election except for the religiou pundits who mention 'white men' on occasion when they refer to polling data. Sometimes in order to see where we are you have to measure it by where we have come from, instead of where we're going.
#2 the condemnation of Rev Wright was about politics pure and simple, forget that hes black for a second, its what he said, he made statements that are anti government, and hes the mentor of Obama... it leads one to assume that Obama is anti-government, and he is, he wants to 'change' everything... Obama is the party of change remember? but we need to be told that we dont want his kind of change.
Hannity, gambled and leaped to the assumption that Obama is the Democrat ticket holder, a pretty decent guess I'd say, and he loaded McCains cannon for him and aimed it right at Obama.
It has nothing to do with race, its all about ideology, conservative capitolist against liberal socialism.
Nobody really cares about religious preachers anyway, we know they are either gonna cry and be forgiven, or ramp up with more hell fire and briimstone. Either way they make great flashpan targets, they go as quickly as they came as far as the american psyche is concerned.
I speak in these times only,, I understand this assumption on your part,, but the situation calls for a strategy in these times,, that includes the destruction of anothers character,, that I claim calculating,,callous and unjust,, we will discover who is right down the road,, as we travel the journey of this 2008 political election,, as to what exactly the reasons were and if your justification for it was the right thing to do,,,in this year 2008....:-6
I am humbled in the company of great minds..
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,An awright student,,,
I want to explore this for minute,,,
Posing the Rev Wright in this field of crazies serves two purposes for us white republicans,, and the alternative of not attacking the character of this man.
A realization that;
#1,,,,,we are no better at picking leaders than any of the gang bangers we see out in the streets that we look down our noses at,, as just a bunch of children who havent even begun to open their eyes to the realities of this life, and if we don't throw Rev Wright under this bus,, as a racist Black man of division,, people may start realizing this and not take us white Republicans seriously,, that maybe we don't have a clue as to what makes for good leadership.
#2,,,,,,,,,,,We have an election coming up that threatens all the progress the Bush/Cheney administration has made. Negativity toward wright is benefitial.
This is the interesting part for me,,only,, I personnally think its a reason being offered to those who wouldn't vote for skin color,, but need a better reason..
Just my theory,, Political stratagist,, and their insight ,, successful,,or not,
I find interesting,, lets see how it plays out. I do not paint everyone with any brush what so ever,, just the mind of the stratagist,,,Ok?:sneaky:
acc wrote: Sorry dear
I have no opinion one way or the other,, it's my basic comeback on a issue I wish not to judge...
I have the same opinion on pro choice,, in that the most important judgement of me,, for better,, for worse,, is mine and no one elses...
Therefore I have no choice but to grant that to all others...
acc wrote:
Yup. Yer either for us or yer agin us. Now fill yer hand, pilgrim, or I'll shoot you where you stand. *spits*
That's a strange thing about our society, especially politics. It's really hard to point out nuance. Sound bytes don't lend themselves to it.
You bad ass,,,American
God loves ya!! Whoever you think that may be......
gmc wrote:
I don't understand american politics. We have similar strands in our politics but the more extreme never really get anywhere. Every now and then american style evangelists come over and generate a bit if interest but it tails off and they never wquite get the kind of following they do in the states. One of the more depressing channels is the god channel (I have very eclectic tastes) They obviously get a lot of money and audience but I can't watch for more than a few minutes without an overwhelming urge to switch to MTV or screaming why don't you read the bible for yourself and decide. Send me a tenner and your life will prosper why does anyone fall for it? If all you study is the bible you end up with a very odd view of things.
I find the concept that people vote a certain way because the church tells them to a very odd one.
I think if you lived here,, and suffered some of the consequences of some of these elections over here,, you would be as I,,and be searching all over this world to understand why!! Lighting a candle,, is better than whining...
Take into account,, I am a Union Ironworker,, middle class,, and fighting to stay that way,, God forgive me!
gmc wrote:
New labour have tried to sell us that crap as well. Unfortunately for them we have calculators and can count. Indirect taxation hits the lowest incomes most-this idea that you can choose not to spend on some things only works if you have enough to cut back on in the first place.
Why can't they just share the pie,, I don't want wealth,, I don't ask for taxation,, I just know working people are worth more,, A bridge is but a dream,, a vision in the mind,,,,,, I make it a reality!:guitarist
We are all working on a bridge,,in some fashion,,, Some call it,,The Bridge between minds!!!,,I call it,,,,,,,,,,,,The Bridge Across Forever!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist
I refer you to the "bad ass American" quote above!
Jester wrote:
On Guns, (personal use) good God just try to take mine, I'll kill ya dead twice before ye get up the sidwalk and have my double 45's reholstered and before your body hits the ground. (Military use) Ok yes we need to arm our military but whatever you do dont take over another country using them, you need to use rubber bullets and just scare them into giving up if thats what it takes... but dont really kill a terrorist, just capture them and send them to Guantanimo. And of course I support you 100% you soldier you, you have a tough job the toughest in the US government, but you get paid in peanut shells and I want to 'support' you by bringing you home now, before you finished your job so that when you leave everything you fought for is meaningless, but its ok I support you.
Believe this,,,
Me and mine,, will be on your right,,your left,, and if necessary in front of you on this issue.
The absurdity that I vote against my wallet,,to keep my weapon(s) tells me this law means nothing..
The "bad ass American" was John Wayne,,,,but he has nothing on Josey fricken Wales...We do have our moments!
In the hills of Pakistan,, I will stand,, I see the rest merely a diversion,,as my blood survives in Iraq!
jester wrote:
#1 assumes that all our leaders over the last two centuries are poor leaders, and that only white amarican men are in office, when we have a race and gender mix in government. 'We the people' are more represented than we ever have been before and moving more in that direction by qualified persons, not loons. (except hillary of course she's just nuts) And further more, for whatever reasons we elected them. Throwing Rev Wright under a bus had nothing to do with race, as a matter of fact I dont see much racial netones at all in this election except for the religiou pundits who mention 'white men' on occasion when they refer to polling data. Sometimes in order to see where we are you have to measure it by where we have come from, instead of where we're going.
#2 the condemnation of Rev Wright was about politics pure and simple, forget that hes black for a second, its what he said, he made statements that are anti government, and hes the mentor of Obama... it leads one to assume that Obama is anti-government, and he is, he wants to 'change' everything... Obama is the party of change remember? but we need to be told that we dont want his kind of change.
Hannity, gambled and leaped to the assumption that Obama is the Democrat ticket holder, a pretty decent guess I'd say, and he loaded McCains cannon for him and aimed it right at Obama.
It has nothing to do with race, its all about ideology, conservative capitolist against liberal socialism.
Nobody really cares about religious preachers anyway, we know they are either gonna cry and be forgiven, or ramp up with more hell fire and briimstone. Either way they make great flashpan targets, they go as quickly as they came as far as the american psyche is concerned.
I speak in these times only,, I understand this assumption on your part,, but the situation calls for a strategy in these times,, that includes the destruction of anothers character,, that I claim calculating,,callous and unjust,, we will discover who is right down the road,, as we travel the journey of this 2008 political election,, as to what exactly the reasons were and if your justification for it was the right thing to do,,,in this year 2008....:-6
I am humbled in the company of great minds..
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,An awright student,,,
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Jester;863279 wrote: Any form of government sanctioned union between two of the same genders is anti-religion and connot pacify biblical accounting.But gov't isn't church, and doesn't and shouldn't answer to God. Gov't is, and should be, all about treating its citizens equally -- and fairly if possible.
Jester;863284 wrote: You had me with Ron Paul till I found out he was anti-iraq. Otheriwse I'd have followed him all the way as far as my vote would have taken him.Paul is a smart man and hardly such a headcase that he'll proceed when all advisors show it would be stupid. He might want to get us out Starting Tuesday and finish by close of business Friday, but once he gets smacked with the reality hidden in all those top secret files, he'll probably do just as any other president would. There's far more positives with Paul than with McCain, Obama, and Clinton put together.
DrJ;863846 wrote: Why can't they just share the pie,, I don't want wealth,, I don't ask for taxation,, I just know working people are worth more,, A bridge is but a dream,, a vision in the mind,,,,,, I make it a reality!:guitarist
We are all working on a bridge,,in some fashion,,, Some call it,,The Bridge between minds!!!,,I call it,,,,,,,,,,,,The Bridge Across Forever!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitaristThe pie is infinite. If you're (collective you, not personal) not satisfied with what an employer gives you from his share of the pie, go out and get your own slice. People limit themselves and it's sad. The only difference between most business owners and most working stiffs is determination and belief in self.
Jester;863284 wrote: You had me with Ron Paul till I found out he was anti-iraq. Otheriwse I'd have followed him all the way as far as my vote would have taken him.Paul is a smart man and hardly such a headcase that he'll proceed when all advisors show it would be stupid. He might want to get us out Starting Tuesday and finish by close of business Friday, but once he gets smacked with the reality hidden in all those top secret files, he'll probably do just as any other president would. There's far more positives with Paul than with McCain, Obama, and Clinton put together.
DrJ;863846 wrote: Why can't they just share the pie,, I don't want wealth,, I don't ask for taxation,, I just know working people are worth more,, A bridge is but a dream,, a vision in the mind,,,,,, I make it a reality!:guitarist
We are all working on a bridge,,in some fashion,,, Some call it,,The Bridge between minds!!!,,I call it,,,,,,,,,,,,The Bridge Across Forever!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitaristThe pie is infinite. If you're (collective you, not personal) not satisfied with what an employer gives you from his share of the pie, go out and get your own slice. People limit themselves and it's sad. The only difference between most business owners and most working stiffs is determination and belief in self.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
acc wrote:
The pie is infinite. If you're (collective you, not personal) not satisfied with what an employer gives you from his share of the pie, go out and get your own slice. People limit themselves and it's sad. The only difference between most business owners and most working stiffs is determination and belief in self.
This is true for those that speak with only self in mind...
:yh_glasse,,,,,:yh_pray:yh_pray,,,,:yh_worshp,,,,,,:yh_clap,,:-6
__________________
The pie is infinite. If you're (collective you, not personal) not satisfied with what an employer gives you from his share of the pie, go out and get your own slice. People limit themselves and it's sad. The only difference between most business owners and most working stiffs is determination and belief in self.
This is true for those that speak with only self in mind...
:yh_glasse,,,,,:yh_pray:yh_pray,,,,:yh_worshp,,,,,,:yh_clap,,:-6
__________________
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ;863868 wrote: This is true for those that speak with only self in mind...
:yh_glasse,,,,,:yh_pray:yh_pray,,,,:yh_worshp,,,,,,:yh_clap,,:-6
__________________
It's true, full stop. If you feel employees are underpaid, pay yours more. Free country, free will.
By paying your employees more, you show more appreciation than the competition. Skilled workers will leave the competition and work for you. Employee loyalty means higher productivity, resulting in higher profits .... larger piece of the pie.
This is true for any and all ... and even more true for those who treat their employees with respect and equity.
:yh_glasse,,,,,:yh_pray:yh_pray,,,,:yh_worshp,,,,,,:yh_clap,,:-6
__________________
It's true, full stop. If you feel employees are underpaid, pay yours more. Free country, free will.
By paying your employees more, you show more appreciation than the competition. Skilled workers will leave the competition and work for you. Employee loyalty means higher productivity, resulting in higher profits .... larger piece of the pie.
This is true for any and all ... and even more true for those who treat their employees with respect and equity.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Amen my friend!:-6:-6
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
gmc wrote:
why don't you read the bible for yourself and decide. Send me a tenner and your life will prosper why does anyone fall for it? If all you study is the bible you end up with a very odd view of things.
I find the concept that people vote a certain way because the church tells them to a very odd one.
Excuse me while I veer off to a land within a world unseen and not nerely traveled as much as is needed for my own sanity,,,my mind..
The Dream
I am amongst many,, but not with any, alone in a crowd so to speak,, I see many eyes and ears pointed in the same direction,, all very interested,, in need of something,, I see one speaking,, but I hear nothing,, my interest lies with those listening,, as if this speaker had these bits of words that would help them,, maybe to see what it is,, he seems to see,, as if it would justify their own understanding,, or add to what they feel is not enough,, or explain to them what it all meant,, some thinking in terms of a type medicine even,,
a multitude of reasons,, as many as those present,, this at the time seemed obvious,, for reasons I have trouble explaining,,,with words,,
I am suspended,, elevated in a sense above, way in the back, and at an angle of sight that is not superior to,, but merely better positioned than I am normally used to,, and from this different view point I can see clear as day everything they are searching for and exactly where it is in each and everyone of these good,, and very interesting people,, and at that moment I think this very loud thought,,
as if I am speaking to another,,
Why don't someone tell them? As if I were the first to notice.
The thought was as gentle as my grandmother,, but with the force of my mother.
I've sent billions!:-6
why don't you read the bible for yourself and decide. Send me a tenner and your life will prosper why does anyone fall for it? If all you study is the bible you end up with a very odd view of things.
I find the concept that people vote a certain way because the church tells them to a very odd one.
Excuse me while I veer off to a land within a world unseen and not nerely traveled as much as is needed for my own sanity,,,my mind..
The Dream
I am amongst many,, but not with any, alone in a crowd so to speak,, I see many eyes and ears pointed in the same direction,, all very interested,, in need of something,, I see one speaking,, but I hear nothing,, my interest lies with those listening,, as if this speaker had these bits of words that would help them,, maybe to see what it is,, he seems to see,, as if it would justify their own understanding,, or add to what they feel is not enough,, or explain to them what it all meant,, some thinking in terms of a type medicine even,,
a multitude of reasons,, as many as those present,, this at the time seemed obvious,, for reasons I have trouble explaining,,,with words,,
I am suspended,, elevated in a sense above, way in the back, and at an angle of sight that is not superior to,, but merely better positioned than I am normally used to,, and from this different view point I can see clear as day everything they are searching for and exactly where it is in each and everyone of these good,, and very interesting people,, and at that moment I think this very loud thought,,
as if I am speaking to another,,
Why don't someone tell them? As if I were the first to notice.
The thought was as gentle as my grandmother,, but with the force of my mother.
I've sent billions!:-6
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ wrote:
This is the interesting part for me,,only,, I personnally think its a reason being offered to those who wouldn't vote for skin color,, but need a better reason..
Just my theory,, Political stratagist,, and their insight ,, successful,,or not,
I find interesting,, lets see how it plays out. I do not paint everyone with any brush what so ever,, just the mind of the stratagist,,,Ok?
I have no opinion one way or the other,, it's my basic comeback on a issue I wish not to judge...
I have the same opinion on pro choice,, in that the most important judgement of me,, for better,, for worse,, is mine and no one elses...
Therefore I have no choice but to grant that to all others...
The first paragraph in this quote shows part of my minds developement as I travel thru this issue,, trying to understand my own thinking as to why I believe as I do,, that coloring a mans life with so very little is a mistake. Maybe I need to understand why I'm right to defend him,, more so than why many don't. Even my own family has anchors in this issue that I believe hold up any progress in their understanding of why this happened other than the fact of a Obama connection,, I mean I realize why the investigators were mining in the area,, but its another thing to understand why they feel like they 'struck gold' as they say. The second paragraph is how I feel toward the "ew yuck" mans prefence issue, which I believe is none of my buisiness,, as long as it doesn't involve or effect children,, aka,,,Catholic leaders with a problem etc,, etc,, I only write this for guest who are trying to follow,,, but don't read all the thread.. Do you sence the paranoid strand coming thru there,,hehehe
jester wrote:
To me its merely the reality of the world we live in, fallen man thinks he can dictate justice to everybody else, even if he has the most benevolent ideology in mind at best he is only 'fair', and never unbiased enough to be fully just. Its completely transparent to everyone else how fair it is, either we agree or we disagree, but everything remians subjective. It becomes situational, if it benefits us, or if it doesnt touch us but benifits those we want it to benefit then its acceptable. If not we cry foul and hang with it depending on the fight in us or we move on.
I don't think Hannity assassinated Wrights character, I think Wright assasinated his own character with his Black American ideology and his references to the marks guy or whatever his name is that wrote the book about this phenomenon that is basicly still 'keeping the blackman down'. Hannity just used it to point out the fact that this ludiciris ideology exists, that Wright is a buyer and perpetuater of it and that he has influence over Barak Obama.
It forced the Obama supporter to question whether he really belived in this type of black ideology and gave him a chance to seperate himself from it. But Obama didnt sdeperate himself from it, he defended the man. Then later finally seperated himself form him.
That explains why I jumped in with both feet,,, Excluding the fact we all have a dog in this fight for the policies of our government,, I am naturally drawn to the underdog in a game I am watching when I am not familier with all the players,, and of course when my bookie is not involved... When people start cheating, as I see this,, I am on auto pilot,, as I am diving into my ammo box to defend the cheated one,, but I understand more about why the need to cheat exists,, in this very complicated issue,, considering the defensive nature of the republican party.
The fact that you actually wrote anything defending Hannity,, does surprise me a little,, and I can't believe this is on solid ground in your mind,, because I watch him a little and I think he would have been happy to attach his name to it,, even if it was about his own Mother,, if he thought he could get a paycheck out of it..My opinion//
50 thousand hours of preaching,, being explained to a public with what? We have successfully seperated two Black people,, because of our understanding of what? An Idea,, a mans perspective,, how he sees things considering the history of the country he lives in,, makes his living in,, raises his family in,, and like you fought for...
I admire anyone trying to find their way thru this very cloudy(thx to the political strategies involved),,issue.
The fact it didn't put Obama down,, is a true testament as to how far the American people have come..
Jester wrote: In my perception how I see this:
Obama grew up for the past 20 years in a church that interwove with biblical principles this ideology that the government operates in a purposeful anti-black mode. You cant spend 20 years listening to somthing and not be swayed by it at leastin part. Apparently he must have believed in it somewhat, because he did not at first denounce Wrights ideologies. It took a while and some failed political events to convince himn he needed to expediantly denouce his long time friend and mentor.
Which leaves me with the impresson that, he really believes the government is anti-black but for political expediency he wont say that, he's a politician, he lies like the rest of them, and is willing to publically cut off a 20 year relationship for the sake of a job.
Pitiful, Obama is to me a man without personal character. Why would I vote for a man without personal character? I wouldnt unless thats the only choice I have.
My perception,,
This is true in my mind about everyone who goes to church and listens to anothers interpretation,, whoever that might be,, I can't take anyone to serious who listens to anothers understanding and then claims it as their own, and I don't care if its Billy Graham,, The one thing I got out of rehab,, I'm no saint by the way,, is in order to truly understand anything, you must first be able to relate it somehow to a reality about yourself,, some similar situation in your life,, and this tells me,, a guilt by association strategy has many many flaws,, in that it leaves in to many blanks in a sentence, for example, to get a true understanding of what it is the sentence is saying to us,,
"He is a man of ----- who can truly get the --- done if you ----- his apparent ----------- of the -----./stop/ :-3
Try and understand what this sentence is saying to you,,fill in the blanks to this sentence in your mind...
How many different ways can you see this,,,and spin FACTS to your advantage, and convince others of the same?
To speak to the fact I think people are making a mistake in applying an ignorance to Rev Wright because of an idea that maybe Black people might have a beef,, This ideology, if I understand it,,
is about how they have been treated throughout history,, to me it MEANS we white people are either,
sick of hearing about the past,, and want to sweep it under the rug for reasons I don't want to believe,, even in my own family,,,,,,,, or
we would rather the black people would assume we are trying to do a better JOB on this issue and any negative comments EXCLUDE us, and make us feel like we are trying for nothing.. I hope its the latter...
I want all to know,, all of us are a work in progress, on every issue, and there are many that are at least trying.
Hows your intepretation of the sentence coming,,, have you filled in the blanks?
I'd be interested in reading what people come up with,,, I will write the sentence correctly at another time..
I have a belief in people,, even when I'm wrong,, I find it easier to navigate after being wrong than at any other time of being 100% right about anything,, I believe if the Black man is cheated in anyway shape or form,, I don't care what spin they apply to it,,,it will shine a light on the RETARDATION of the population of this whole country,, and the people who took full advantage of it,, who were well aware of an awareness level of a population... Hey it's politics,, its how we really feel,, and the political strategists merely hold up a mirror,, and its up to us rather we want to look or not,,, by the way,, I wrote this same thing back in 2000 for a white man running for president,, after an electorate in South Carolina basically bought into the Bush campaign of negativity against the family of one John McCain... after he conceded the nomination.
It's in the valleys we grow..
This is the interesting part for me,,only,, I personnally think its a reason being offered to those who wouldn't vote for skin color,, but need a better reason..
Just my theory,, Political stratagist,, and their insight ,, successful,,or not,
I find interesting,, lets see how it plays out. I do not paint everyone with any brush what so ever,, just the mind of the stratagist,,,Ok?
I have no opinion one way or the other,, it's my basic comeback on a issue I wish not to judge...
I have the same opinion on pro choice,, in that the most important judgement of me,, for better,, for worse,, is mine and no one elses...
Therefore I have no choice but to grant that to all others...
The first paragraph in this quote shows part of my minds developement as I travel thru this issue,, trying to understand my own thinking as to why I believe as I do,, that coloring a mans life with so very little is a mistake. Maybe I need to understand why I'm right to defend him,, more so than why many don't. Even my own family has anchors in this issue that I believe hold up any progress in their understanding of why this happened other than the fact of a Obama connection,, I mean I realize why the investigators were mining in the area,, but its another thing to understand why they feel like they 'struck gold' as they say. The second paragraph is how I feel toward the "ew yuck" mans prefence issue, which I believe is none of my buisiness,, as long as it doesn't involve or effect children,, aka,,,Catholic leaders with a problem etc,, etc,, I only write this for guest who are trying to follow,,, but don't read all the thread.. Do you sence the paranoid strand coming thru there,,hehehe
jester wrote:
To me its merely the reality of the world we live in, fallen man thinks he can dictate justice to everybody else, even if he has the most benevolent ideology in mind at best he is only 'fair', and never unbiased enough to be fully just. Its completely transparent to everyone else how fair it is, either we agree or we disagree, but everything remians subjective. It becomes situational, if it benefits us, or if it doesnt touch us but benifits those we want it to benefit then its acceptable. If not we cry foul and hang with it depending on the fight in us or we move on.
I don't think Hannity assassinated Wrights character, I think Wright assasinated his own character with his Black American ideology and his references to the marks guy or whatever his name is that wrote the book about this phenomenon that is basicly still 'keeping the blackman down'. Hannity just used it to point out the fact that this ludiciris ideology exists, that Wright is a buyer and perpetuater of it and that he has influence over Barak Obama.
It forced the Obama supporter to question whether he really belived in this type of black ideology and gave him a chance to seperate himself from it. But Obama didnt sdeperate himself from it, he defended the man. Then later finally seperated himself form him.
That explains why I jumped in with both feet,,, Excluding the fact we all have a dog in this fight for the policies of our government,, I am naturally drawn to the underdog in a game I am watching when I am not familier with all the players,, and of course when my bookie is not involved... When people start cheating, as I see this,, I am on auto pilot,, as I am diving into my ammo box to defend the cheated one,, but I understand more about why the need to cheat exists,, in this very complicated issue,, considering the defensive nature of the republican party.
The fact that you actually wrote anything defending Hannity,, does surprise me a little,, and I can't believe this is on solid ground in your mind,, because I watch him a little and I think he would have been happy to attach his name to it,, even if it was about his own Mother,, if he thought he could get a paycheck out of it..My opinion//
50 thousand hours of preaching,, being explained to a public with what? We have successfully seperated two Black people,, because of our understanding of what? An Idea,, a mans perspective,, how he sees things considering the history of the country he lives in,, makes his living in,, raises his family in,, and like you fought for...
I admire anyone trying to find their way thru this very cloudy(thx to the political strategies involved),,issue.
The fact it didn't put Obama down,, is a true testament as to how far the American people have come..
Jester wrote: In my perception how I see this:
Obama grew up for the past 20 years in a church that interwove with biblical principles this ideology that the government operates in a purposeful anti-black mode. You cant spend 20 years listening to somthing and not be swayed by it at leastin part. Apparently he must have believed in it somewhat, because he did not at first denounce Wrights ideologies. It took a while and some failed political events to convince himn he needed to expediantly denouce his long time friend and mentor.
Which leaves me with the impresson that, he really believes the government is anti-black but for political expediency he wont say that, he's a politician, he lies like the rest of them, and is willing to publically cut off a 20 year relationship for the sake of a job.
Pitiful, Obama is to me a man without personal character. Why would I vote for a man without personal character? I wouldnt unless thats the only choice I have.
My perception,,
This is true in my mind about everyone who goes to church and listens to anothers interpretation,, whoever that might be,, I can't take anyone to serious who listens to anothers understanding and then claims it as their own, and I don't care if its Billy Graham,, The one thing I got out of rehab,, I'm no saint by the way,, is in order to truly understand anything, you must first be able to relate it somehow to a reality about yourself,, some similar situation in your life,, and this tells me,, a guilt by association strategy has many many flaws,, in that it leaves in to many blanks in a sentence, for example, to get a true understanding of what it is the sentence is saying to us,,
"He is a man of ----- who can truly get the --- done if you ----- his apparent ----------- of the -----./stop/ :-3
Try and understand what this sentence is saying to you,,fill in the blanks to this sentence in your mind...
How many different ways can you see this,,,and spin FACTS to your advantage, and convince others of the same?
To speak to the fact I think people are making a mistake in applying an ignorance to Rev Wright because of an idea that maybe Black people might have a beef,, This ideology, if I understand it,,
is about how they have been treated throughout history,, to me it MEANS we white people are either,
sick of hearing about the past,, and want to sweep it under the rug for reasons I don't want to believe,, even in my own family,,,,,,,, or
we would rather the black people would assume we are trying to do a better JOB on this issue and any negative comments EXCLUDE us, and make us feel like we are trying for nothing.. I hope its the latter...
I want all to know,, all of us are a work in progress, on every issue, and there are many that are at least trying.
Hows your intepretation of the sentence coming,,, have you filled in the blanks?
I'd be interested in reading what people come up with,,, I will write the sentence correctly at another time..
I have a belief in people,, even when I'm wrong,, I find it easier to navigate after being wrong than at any other time of being 100% right about anything,, I believe if the Black man is cheated in anyway shape or form,, I don't care what spin they apply to it,,,it will shine a light on the RETARDATION of the population of this whole country,, and the people who took full advantage of it,, who were well aware of an awareness level of a population... Hey it's politics,, its how we really feel,, and the political strategists merely hold up a mirror,, and its up to us rather we want to look or not,,, by the way,, I wrote this same thing back in 2000 for a white man running for president,, after an electorate in South Carolina basically bought into the Bush campaign of negativity against the family of one John McCain... after he conceded the nomination.
It's in the valleys we grow..
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
jester wrote:
You know, it occurs to me that men dont want to make the hard choices anymore, to come to a decision based on what they believe and stick by it until they are proved wrong or they remain uncorrected. I try as much as is possibel not to fall into situational ethics, where I change my ways based on who it affects or when it actually turns out bad for me.
The truth is Rev Wrights ideology that the balck man is held back by the white man feeds into the cycle that stops both sides from ever getting out of it. When biblical truth exemplifies forgiveness and moving on.
As to your lack of desire to come to a conclusion over things that you think wont affect you, there isnt anything like that in the world. Every social problem has trends, as homosexuality is embraced by a society it increases and becomes more mainline, the more mainline it becomes the greater change it has to be acceptable by subsequent generations. Homosexuality is a destroyer of families. Without storng families this society is doomed. The affects of divirce and remarriage have impacted almost every corner of our scociety and the affects have been devistating on the family unit. Homosexuality is no different. Its a destroyer. Burying ones head in the sand only perpetuates the ills of our society.
I don't have a choice in this matter,,judge not,,its not my place with this issue,, even if we could make it a crime... We have no control over this issue, in fact I think about whenever I tried to stop my kids from anything,, my daughters admitted to me in later years,, it made it mandatory that they have it,, whatever it was I didn't think they should have,, they started needing, funny how it works that way..
Explain how this issue destroys families,, I hate to say this Jester,,you sound a lot like the fricken Taliban. Yea,,thats it,, lets start beheading these people, now there'd be a good family show,, I'm kidding..:yh_silly
So your in this hat with Hagee and co,, You don't believe the weather,,,thing to do ya? We live in the age of info,, now,, the far right muslims feel just as you do tho,, I understand the concern,,but the only control anyone has is to be true to themselves,, teach your children as best you can,, to prepare them
for what they are about to receive,, from this world,, and thats the best we can do,,Freedom reigns..
My paranoid line was for CIA, NSA, Foxnews, msnbc,, etc etc etc,...Believe..
I'm trying to understand what your using for brushes(references) when you paint Rev Wright with this Hate/Whitey,,logo,, I really don't think your seeing the real man there,, or your info is a sound byte,,
Look at 30 yrs,, I don't know enough about him,, I'm defending a man I don't even know,, giving him the benefit of the doubt,, as I do all I don't know,, is it more a political reason?
Have you ever talk to him? Looked into his eyes? here's the best one,,,Walked in his shoes?
On your right,,,and your left,,, no matter how careful we plan it,,Politics aint worth it..
jester wrote:
Ah, I too root for the underdog except when the underdog is wrong., he wasnt cheated, he was judged by his words.
Now that's right,,2 of them,, out of 2 million,:yh_hypno
jester wrote:
I did not defend hannity, actually I labeled what he did as the reality in which we live. And the current state of affairs of politics and pundits.
Foxnews has the most warped sense of reality on television,, O'Really!O'Hannity!,
it's a comedy, for christs sake! My opinion,,
They are on my mail list,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:yh_loser
jester wrote:
Well it did put Obama down, and he'll sink even further for it when hes on the ticket as the dem's man, give it time. The only thing anyoen had to do was let Rev Wright refer to his agreement with the book he referred to in his speech at the national press conference. Hannity read exceprts fomr the book and I'm headed to my library tomorrow night to get it off hold so I can read it myself. I'll let you knwo what I think after Ive read it.
We'll see about that one,, but I have to tell you,, I think people would rather vote for a bum off the street than even consider putting another Republican in there,, I mean it will surprise me if McCain even comes close..
I was a Maverick Man till Rove and co knocked the Maverick out of him,,sadly..
jester wrote:
I think that depends on how persuasive you are, and whether you have any credibilty. But in all honesty there are many things one can get a good understanding of without participating in it, or relating to it too directly. We can learn from others mistakes and from when men speak to us about things we come to understand, we all listen to others, be they preachers like you referred to or bums on the street, I guess it depends more on who we DECIDE to follow than it does on just following our own advice. It relates to what I was saying about not making a hard choice, no man is an island, and what we do affects others, and what we dont do affects others. Making the right choice in life is paramount, based on your rehab Im sure at least now your aware of that.
Well rehab was a decade ago, but I still remember its Ten commandments ,,
Have you ever been in a situation where you had to denounce a respected figure in your life?whether it be,,preacher, teacher, father, uncle,,boss co-worker,, that you knew well, and understood.. Is there anything in your past,, a decade ago,,5 yrs ago,, that you might have said that might not be politically correct? Anything? Now after your past comes out,, we tie it to someone you know,, and blame them for your statements,,,,,,,,,,because they heard you say it,,,its desperation on a level of a 5 yr old..C'mon! Your kidding me,,aren't you? Don't take this wrong,, I enjoy the debate, even when I'm right! The only way same sexual preference ever effected me,, was when I walked in on my ex,, and my girlfriend.. I just don't see it.. Drinking and drugging is a whole nother show,, now those lessons were worth every nickel,, A perspective that defies the gravity of this world,,,ty ty ty ty :yh_flag
jester wrote:
I think as far as the black issue is concerned, I dont care about skin color, race, or ethical back ground, its a useless discritpor unless your trying to locate someone in a crowd and race narrows who your looking for. To perpetuate the idea that all whites are trying to keep the black man underfoot and the government is forcing this mindset, is coutner productive to the common black man giving me the benifit of the doubt and for his confidence developing in me to take him at facevalue for his actions alone. on one hand I'm not going to bend over backwards to compel a black man that I'm not racist, I just dont have the time to invest in each one I meet, I either treat them as i do all other, cordially, or I get to knwo them and develop a relationship beyond being cordial. I am also sick of being confronted by black men who think that I am racist becaseu of this issue, some I encountered in the army, and for a while it was going away, but theres a resurgeance of it amongst the inner city kids that entered the army in the past five to ten years. The only thing is its not just black, its just 'thug', meaning its an anti-civil mindset of mulitple races.
I hear ya on this one,,I don't think its you,,Jester,,
I believe the only racists we have in this country,, are closeted,,,forced in,, to survive,, they try to paint white non-college--uneducated,, as the biggest perps of this but I have a feeling its sprinkled through all classes
all races--racism is a mind-set,,I know I sound like I'm making more out of it,, I really don't believe thats the problem,, its like when we talk about the age thing with McCain,,they will over compensate,, you watch,,
Obama will do the same on the Rev issue,,,look out foxnews,,they've been warned,,The 5 2 7's are coming tho.
Jester wrote:
Im never sure I'm ever 100% right, I think so from my perspective, but I never fully believe I am, guess Ive been wrong enough to figure that one out.
Its time to let things go in terms of one race holding the current group ransom because of the actions of those in the past. The issues of slavery have already been exposed, and re exposed, like salt in a wound after ripping old bandages off. Its time to let it go and let it heal.
This isn't nothing to do with slavery,, come on up thru time a bit Jester,, I am talking about now,, not the civil rights movement,, I recognize the "Hannity Cloud",, believe me,, and I am grateful for it,, but seriously,, I am talking about the silent type of "Wink wink" racism, that still breathes a bit these days,, the David Dukes haven't gone anywhere,, they have merely faded back into political partys,, a more intelligent compromise type deal,, that in know way shape or form includes the Presidency,, I believe Hannity is about to be tagged with it. We'll see The foxnews gets me,, ill have to admit,, kneecappers,,
but I look forward to your Hannity book reading,, I got a girl I know works at amazon,, I'll see if they got it,, I'd imagine they do..
I had clues planted in that message for the blankity blank sentence:sneaky:
You know, it occurs to me that men dont want to make the hard choices anymore, to come to a decision based on what they believe and stick by it until they are proved wrong or they remain uncorrected. I try as much as is possibel not to fall into situational ethics, where I change my ways based on who it affects or when it actually turns out bad for me.
The truth is Rev Wrights ideology that the balck man is held back by the white man feeds into the cycle that stops both sides from ever getting out of it. When biblical truth exemplifies forgiveness and moving on.
As to your lack of desire to come to a conclusion over things that you think wont affect you, there isnt anything like that in the world. Every social problem has trends, as homosexuality is embraced by a society it increases and becomes more mainline, the more mainline it becomes the greater change it has to be acceptable by subsequent generations. Homosexuality is a destroyer of families. Without storng families this society is doomed. The affects of divirce and remarriage have impacted almost every corner of our scociety and the affects have been devistating on the family unit. Homosexuality is no different. Its a destroyer. Burying ones head in the sand only perpetuates the ills of our society.
I don't have a choice in this matter,,judge not,,its not my place with this issue,, even if we could make it a crime... We have no control over this issue, in fact I think about whenever I tried to stop my kids from anything,, my daughters admitted to me in later years,, it made it mandatory that they have it,, whatever it was I didn't think they should have,, they started needing, funny how it works that way..
Explain how this issue destroys families,, I hate to say this Jester,,you sound a lot like the fricken Taliban. Yea,,thats it,, lets start beheading these people, now there'd be a good family show,, I'm kidding..:yh_silly
So your in this hat with Hagee and co,, You don't believe the weather,,,thing to do ya? We live in the age of info,, now,, the far right muslims feel just as you do tho,, I understand the concern,,but the only control anyone has is to be true to themselves,, teach your children as best you can,, to prepare them
for what they are about to receive,, from this world,, and thats the best we can do,,Freedom reigns..
My paranoid line was for CIA, NSA, Foxnews, msnbc,, etc etc etc,...Believe..
I'm trying to understand what your using for brushes(references) when you paint Rev Wright with this Hate/Whitey,,logo,, I really don't think your seeing the real man there,, or your info is a sound byte,,
Look at 30 yrs,, I don't know enough about him,, I'm defending a man I don't even know,, giving him the benefit of the doubt,, as I do all I don't know,, is it more a political reason?
Have you ever talk to him? Looked into his eyes? here's the best one,,,Walked in his shoes?
On your right,,,and your left,,, no matter how careful we plan it,,Politics aint worth it..
jester wrote:
Ah, I too root for the underdog except when the underdog is wrong., he wasnt cheated, he was judged by his words.
Now that's right,,2 of them,, out of 2 million,:yh_hypno
jester wrote:
I did not defend hannity, actually I labeled what he did as the reality in which we live. And the current state of affairs of politics and pundits.
Foxnews has the most warped sense of reality on television,, O'Really!O'Hannity!,
it's a comedy, for christs sake! My opinion,,
They are on my mail list,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:yh_loser
jester wrote:
Well it did put Obama down, and he'll sink even further for it when hes on the ticket as the dem's man, give it time. The only thing anyoen had to do was let Rev Wright refer to his agreement with the book he referred to in his speech at the national press conference. Hannity read exceprts fomr the book and I'm headed to my library tomorrow night to get it off hold so I can read it myself. I'll let you knwo what I think after Ive read it.
We'll see about that one,, but I have to tell you,, I think people would rather vote for a bum off the street than even consider putting another Republican in there,, I mean it will surprise me if McCain even comes close..
I was a Maverick Man till Rove and co knocked the Maverick out of him,,sadly..
jester wrote:
I think that depends on how persuasive you are, and whether you have any credibilty. But in all honesty there are many things one can get a good understanding of without participating in it, or relating to it too directly. We can learn from others mistakes and from when men speak to us about things we come to understand, we all listen to others, be they preachers like you referred to or bums on the street, I guess it depends more on who we DECIDE to follow than it does on just following our own advice. It relates to what I was saying about not making a hard choice, no man is an island, and what we do affects others, and what we dont do affects others. Making the right choice in life is paramount, based on your rehab Im sure at least now your aware of that.
Well rehab was a decade ago, but I still remember its Ten commandments ,,
Have you ever been in a situation where you had to denounce a respected figure in your life?whether it be,,preacher, teacher, father, uncle,,boss co-worker,, that you knew well, and understood.. Is there anything in your past,, a decade ago,,5 yrs ago,, that you might have said that might not be politically correct? Anything? Now after your past comes out,, we tie it to someone you know,, and blame them for your statements,,,,,,,,,,because they heard you say it,,,its desperation on a level of a 5 yr old..C'mon! Your kidding me,,aren't you? Don't take this wrong,, I enjoy the debate, even when I'm right! The only way same sexual preference ever effected me,, was when I walked in on my ex,, and my girlfriend.. I just don't see it.. Drinking and drugging is a whole nother show,, now those lessons were worth every nickel,, A perspective that defies the gravity of this world,,,ty ty ty ty :yh_flag
jester wrote:
I think as far as the black issue is concerned, I dont care about skin color, race, or ethical back ground, its a useless discritpor unless your trying to locate someone in a crowd and race narrows who your looking for. To perpetuate the idea that all whites are trying to keep the black man underfoot and the government is forcing this mindset, is coutner productive to the common black man giving me the benifit of the doubt and for his confidence developing in me to take him at facevalue for his actions alone. on one hand I'm not going to bend over backwards to compel a black man that I'm not racist, I just dont have the time to invest in each one I meet, I either treat them as i do all other, cordially, or I get to knwo them and develop a relationship beyond being cordial. I am also sick of being confronted by black men who think that I am racist becaseu of this issue, some I encountered in the army, and for a while it was going away, but theres a resurgeance of it amongst the inner city kids that entered the army in the past five to ten years. The only thing is its not just black, its just 'thug', meaning its an anti-civil mindset of mulitple races.
I hear ya on this one,,I don't think its you,,Jester,,
I believe the only racists we have in this country,, are closeted,,,forced in,, to survive,, they try to paint white non-college--uneducated,, as the biggest perps of this but I have a feeling its sprinkled through all classes
all races--racism is a mind-set,,I know I sound like I'm making more out of it,, I really don't believe thats the problem,, its like when we talk about the age thing with McCain,,they will over compensate,, you watch,,
Obama will do the same on the Rev issue,,,look out foxnews,,they've been warned,,The 5 2 7's are coming tho.
Jester wrote:
Im never sure I'm ever 100% right, I think so from my perspective, but I never fully believe I am, guess Ive been wrong enough to figure that one out.
Its time to let things go in terms of one race holding the current group ransom because of the actions of those in the past. The issues of slavery have already been exposed, and re exposed, like salt in a wound after ripping old bandages off. Its time to let it go and let it heal.
This isn't nothing to do with slavery,, come on up thru time a bit Jester,, I am talking about now,, not the civil rights movement,, I recognize the "Hannity Cloud",, believe me,, and I am grateful for it,, but seriously,, I am talking about the silent type of "Wink wink" racism, that still breathes a bit these days,, the David Dukes haven't gone anywhere,, they have merely faded back into political partys,, a more intelligent compromise type deal,, that in know way shape or form includes the Presidency,, I believe Hannity is about to be tagged with it. We'll see The foxnews gets me,, ill have to admit,, kneecappers,,
but I look forward to your Hannity book reading,, I got a girl I know works at amazon,, I'll see if they got it,, I'd imagine they do..
I had clues planted in that message for the blankity blank sentence:sneaky:
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
jester wrote:
Judge not? I don't think so, We, all mankind must discern right form wrong all the time, its not judging to view the facts and come to a conslusion if an activity is detrimental to ones body or not. Its called wisdom in most places of the world. I view homosexuality as detrimental to the human body first, and then to the family. Ive gone into this extensively other places in th egarden so I'd prefer not to rehash it, I'll pm you a link to other threads and you can join in if you prefer. But suffice it to say for now, turning a blind eye to it building only makes you face it later when its a stronger and more widespread ideology.
Now, before Im accused as being a hate monger for being against homosexual activity I never said make law forbidding it, nor running the ones who practice it out a rail or off a cliff. I'm advocating not mkaing any laws promoting it or teaching that its a good thing, but rather teach the truth, that it can kill you.
Kids need training in why a rule is a rule, if you make a rule of course they will attempt to break it, thats the nature of authority and the human heart, Just making a rule will do that everytime, but makikng a rule and then training your kids why the rule is in place will diminish that desire.
What have you been taught in this life that shows you its even possible for people to come to the same conclusion about an issue like personal preference? The words,,"I view" is key to this subject,, and I can clearly see your view,, but here's another "I view" I don't consider the non judgement of other peoples preference hurts our world in the least, I really feel no competition from anyones personnel preference, in fact, if I even try to get to the point where I'm somehow trying to keep another from having one I don't agree with,, I wonder to myself when someone is going to come to me with an objection to one of mine, for example I am a smoker,, I am addicted to nicotine,,
I need to smoke,, it helps me think,, cope,, they are legal,,,,wait a minute,, Ok,,,Ok,, you are right to think it hurts me and the others around me who do not smoke,, I see your argument,,,you are right in banning smoking,, but this sex thing doesn't effect no one but the two in it,, then how can I find a reason when it hurts me not...?
I am like you that way,, I see no reason for laws,,but I am not in that life,,but I know this, my ex-wife feels she deserves half my pension and I don't even know that woman anymore,, but I realize she put up with my view of life long enough that some Judge(republican) felt the same exact way,,, so I think we should get rid of all laws of that nature,,,,,,,please lets rid the country of all laws that tie 2 together just because they shared a certain kind of "hell on earth" together,,,I'm 100% with you on this issue! Can I get an Amen!
I believe children are well aware of why a rule is a rule,, my children do anyway,,it's because I said so!:yh_ttth
They learned that in the first five years of their life because they lived with a very strict rule maker,,:yh_think
who they lovingly refer to as Dad! It was Mom that convinced them that maybe,, just maybe,, Dad was an Idiot!:yh_ooooo
jester wrote:
Wright practices what he refered to as 'black socialism' (i think thats the term) he was referrign to the ideology that since slavery the government and predominatly the white race has kept the black man in a subhuman condition. The book I was refering to was writting by a man that had laid out this ideology. Its this ideology Ive been referfing to as bad for america, mostly because all it does is bring up the past.
I recognize there is disaparity in the 'races', only a fool woudlnt, but its not a race issue, its a choice issue. Any one in america has the opportunity to change their situation. I came from a poor farming community and made something of myself. regardless of race anyone with half a brain, a highschool education (and believe me I struggled through highschool) can do what Ive done.
Now I believe there's more to this issue than you are including in your conclusion,, I mean even you have written in here that the journey from the days of slavery thru the civil rights movement to present day can be considered an uphill journey,, at least,,you agree.. This is why I believe more ought to try and see thru the eyes of others before they conclude anything about anothers reason for anything,, you came from a poor farming community,, but is it possible in your travels,, the mountains you climbed,, were made possible thru these same struggles, skin color is a very well known unfair difference in how some view humans. Its a reality for many,, and maybe it explains why such books get written to shine light on things white people never see,, because maybe our attention is on other things,, like our own hurdles and mountains...I know you mean well Jester,, and are trying to look out for others,, but when you write your book about your race and the struggles it has had traveling thru this life,, in this land of the free,, and someone reads it and writes "anyone with half a brain"----well your right,,it is about choices,,
maybe some find the choices a little more daunting and unfair,, is all I mean..
jester wrote:
Oh turn the channel to MSNBC or CNN, theres no difference. Oberhoosier or whateverr his name is spews disdain for anythign bush or republican. Just another channel of butters. No news is unbiased.
My theory,,,media reflects its audience,,,only....phone calls ,,email,, right wing dictatorship,,etc etc
jester wrote:
Unfortunatly it will be McCain in the whitehouse. Last tiem I checked you need the swing vote to pull it off, since there is a majority of republican voters in the US (imagine that huh?) If the dems put a polorizing Obama on the ticket instead of a moderate Hillary, they lost.
I don't know about that Jester,, Check the ratings of media,, it gives a view of voters minds,, I think of it this way,,70% of the pie is owned by 30%,,,,70% splits the other 30%,, Voters are fickle,,the elections are a sign,, what is happening to all the republicans,, even those with tenure,, have found themselves in jeopardy... Research this...
jester wrote:
Separating from another,,whose belief,, not mine,,,
It did take me a long time to be able to do it though ,, I'll admit that.
Oh yea?:yh_eyebro
jester wrote: It took him too long to do that
Oh No!!!:yh_wait
jester wrote:
Slavery is where all this started, it cant be shaked by most folks. Its somehow a blight on thier pride today, which I suppose I can understand, but its ended on our part, whats truly keeping the black man down (if that exists today) is thier own mindset.
I merely add my opinion with yours Jester,,,,,
My opinion + your opinion= A collective perspective...
Welcome to the Higher Power!:yh_yinyan
Judge not? I don't think so, We, all mankind must discern right form wrong all the time, its not judging to view the facts and come to a conslusion if an activity is detrimental to ones body or not. Its called wisdom in most places of the world. I view homosexuality as detrimental to the human body first, and then to the family. Ive gone into this extensively other places in th egarden so I'd prefer not to rehash it, I'll pm you a link to other threads and you can join in if you prefer. But suffice it to say for now, turning a blind eye to it building only makes you face it later when its a stronger and more widespread ideology.
Now, before Im accused as being a hate monger for being against homosexual activity I never said make law forbidding it, nor running the ones who practice it out a rail or off a cliff. I'm advocating not mkaing any laws promoting it or teaching that its a good thing, but rather teach the truth, that it can kill you.
Kids need training in why a rule is a rule, if you make a rule of course they will attempt to break it, thats the nature of authority and the human heart, Just making a rule will do that everytime, but makikng a rule and then training your kids why the rule is in place will diminish that desire.
What have you been taught in this life that shows you its even possible for people to come to the same conclusion about an issue like personal preference? The words,,"I view" is key to this subject,, and I can clearly see your view,, but here's another "I view" I don't consider the non judgement of other peoples preference hurts our world in the least, I really feel no competition from anyones personnel preference, in fact, if I even try to get to the point where I'm somehow trying to keep another from having one I don't agree with,, I wonder to myself when someone is going to come to me with an objection to one of mine, for example I am a smoker,, I am addicted to nicotine,,
I need to smoke,, it helps me think,, cope,, they are legal,,,,wait a minute,, Ok,,,Ok,, you are right to think it hurts me and the others around me who do not smoke,, I see your argument,,,you are right in banning smoking,, but this sex thing doesn't effect no one but the two in it,, then how can I find a reason when it hurts me not...?
I am like you that way,, I see no reason for laws,,but I am not in that life,,but I know this, my ex-wife feels she deserves half my pension and I don't even know that woman anymore,, but I realize she put up with my view of life long enough that some Judge(republican) felt the same exact way,,, so I think we should get rid of all laws of that nature,,,,,,,please lets rid the country of all laws that tie 2 together just because they shared a certain kind of "hell on earth" together,,,I'm 100% with you on this issue! Can I get an Amen!
I believe children are well aware of why a rule is a rule,, my children do anyway,,it's because I said so!:yh_ttth
They learned that in the first five years of their life because they lived with a very strict rule maker,,:yh_think
who they lovingly refer to as Dad! It was Mom that convinced them that maybe,, just maybe,, Dad was an Idiot!:yh_ooooo
jester wrote:
Wright practices what he refered to as 'black socialism' (i think thats the term) he was referrign to the ideology that since slavery the government and predominatly the white race has kept the black man in a subhuman condition. The book I was refering to was writting by a man that had laid out this ideology. Its this ideology Ive been referfing to as bad for america, mostly because all it does is bring up the past.
I recognize there is disaparity in the 'races', only a fool woudlnt, but its not a race issue, its a choice issue. Any one in america has the opportunity to change their situation. I came from a poor farming community and made something of myself. regardless of race anyone with half a brain, a highschool education (and believe me I struggled through highschool) can do what Ive done.
Now I believe there's more to this issue than you are including in your conclusion,, I mean even you have written in here that the journey from the days of slavery thru the civil rights movement to present day can be considered an uphill journey,, at least,,you agree.. This is why I believe more ought to try and see thru the eyes of others before they conclude anything about anothers reason for anything,, you came from a poor farming community,, but is it possible in your travels,, the mountains you climbed,, were made possible thru these same struggles, skin color is a very well known unfair difference in how some view humans. Its a reality for many,, and maybe it explains why such books get written to shine light on things white people never see,, because maybe our attention is on other things,, like our own hurdles and mountains...I know you mean well Jester,, and are trying to look out for others,, but when you write your book about your race and the struggles it has had traveling thru this life,, in this land of the free,, and someone reads it and writes "anyone with half a brain"----well your right,,it is about choices,,
maybe some find the choices a little more daunting and unfair,, is all I mean..
jester wrote:
Oh turn the channel to MSNBC or CNN, theres no difference. Oberhoosier or whateverr his name is spews disdain for anythign bush or republican. Just another channel of butters. No news is unbiased.
My theory,,,media reflects its audience,,,only....phone calls ,,email,, right wing dictatorship,,etc etc
jester wrote:
Unfortunatly it will be McCain in the whitehouse. Last tiem I checked you need the swing vote to pull it off, since there is a majority of republican voters in the US (imagine that huh?) If the dems put a polorizing Obama on the ticket instead of a moderate Hillary, they lost.
I don't know about that Jester,, Check the ratings of media,, it gives a view of voters minds,, I think of it this way,,70% of the pie is owned by 30%,,,,70% splits the other 30%,, Voters are fickle,,the elections are a sign,, what is happening to all the republicans,, even those with tenure,, have found themselves in jeopardy... Research this...
jester wrote:
Separating from another,,whose belief,, not mine,,,
It did take me a long time to be able to do it though ,, I'll admit that.
Oh yea?:yh_eyebro
jester wrote: It took him too long to do that
Oh No!!!:yh_wait
jester wrote:
Slavery is where all this started, it cant be shaked by most folks. Its somehow a blight on thier pride today, which I suppose I can understand, but its ended on our part, whats truly keeping the black man down (if that exists today) is thier own mindset.
I merely add my opinion with yours Jester,,,,,
My opinion + your opinion= A collective perspective...
Welcome to the Higher Power!:yh_yinyan
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ wrote:
I am like you that way,, I see no reason for laws,,but I am not in that life,,but I know this, my ex-wife feels she deserves half my pension and I don't even know that woman anymore,, but I realize she put up with my view of life long enough that some Judge(republican) felt the same exact way,,, so I think we should get rid of all laws of that nature,,,,,,,please lets rid the country of all laws that tie 2 together just because they shared a certain kind of "hell on earth" together,,,I'm 100% with you on this issue! Can I get an Amen!
Do I take it that you agree with me that the gov't should not recognize marriage or have a legal definition of it? It would mean losing that 'married filing jointly' option on the form 1040, y'know.
I am like you that way,, I see no reason for laws,,but I am not in that life,,but I know this, my ex-wife feels she deserves half my pension and I don't even know that woman anymore,, but I realize she put up with my view of life long enough that some Judge(republican) felt the same exact way,,, so I think we should get rid of all laws of that nature,,,,,,,please lets rid the country of all laws that tie 2 together just because they shared a certain kind of "hell on earth" together,,,I'm 100% with you on this issue! Can I get an Amen!
Do I take it that you agree with me that the gov't should not recognize marriage or have a legal definition of it? It would mean losing that 'married filing jointly' option on the form 1040, y'know.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ
I am like you that way,, I see no reason for laws,,but I am not in that life,,but I know this, my ex-wife feels she deserves half my pension and I don't even know that woman anymore,, but I realize she put up with my view of life long enough that some Judge(republican) felt the same exact way,,, so I think we should get rid of all laws of that nature,,,,,,,please lets rid the country of all laws that tie 2 together just because they shared a certain kind of "hell on earth" together,,,I'm 100% with you on this issue! Can I get an Amen!
acc wrote:
Do I take it that you agree with me that the gov't should not recognize marriage or have a legal definition of it? It would mean losing that 'married filing jointly' option on the form 1040, y'know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accountable
Do I take it that you agree with me that the gov't should not recognize marriage or have a legal definition of it? It would mean losing that 'married filing jointly' option on the form 1040, y'know.
jester wrote:
'Marriage' means nothing anymore, its been reduced to 'domestic partnership'. It's been devalued to the point that family means nothing anymore either. There is no unit of committment, its a dissolvable partnership, a mere written contract that has little benefit to the individuals and less to society.
My first gut reaction to 'domestic partnership/devalued is to jump in to the blame game, considering what advice I gave my daughters about how to judge possible partners,, in this quest we all have been involved in,, mating..
My first question being who is he, followed by secret thoughts of water boarding, and possible future plans of a Bourne Identity type mission on the life of the male in question,, :yh_wave
I ask them "How much money does he have? What does he do for a living? Is he willing to sacrifice his life savings for this love he is about to receive? This is my reaction,, with hindsight I can clearly see shouldn't have been the most important questions to ask,, you see by being a concerned non biased parent, who at one time, guilty of saying anything,, to get to what I thought,, in my youth as the ultimate prize, I knew for a fact men think only about themselves,, in this journey that changes lives,, having 4 children at the age of 24 revealed to me, I was merely worried about their financial futures,, a natural reaction..
Love wasn't the issue,, to me,,$$$ and my daughters inevitable broken heart,,being my only thought,,means I am to blame for the devalued partnership we call Marriage.. In this life of judgements without hindsight,, we all have a part in the future generations thinking about everything,, relationships,, marriage,, freedom,,and even our belief in much larger thought such as...spirituality...
Some look at this as a problem,, I see it as progress, because I have realized my re-thinking of everything in my mind came about because of results created by the idea that at times a man, a father, a son, a brother, has got to make a stand,,, which is true,, but lead me to a realization of limited sight,, at the times in my life I made a stand and presented the fact that I was right, and any opinion to the contrary,, was wrong... A marker, you might say, in the natural progression of the growth in one mans thinking.. My excuse being,, Hey people, I only have 2 eyes for christ sake,, what do you expect!!!
Not really Acc,, maybe if I didn't have the experience of having girls,, I could see why it is a possible notion to believe how its obviously unjust.....Hello!:yh_cry
It's a personal preference of mine,, that I can understand why it's not a reality. There are a lot of people that belive that certain preferences shouldn't be things we make laws about,, hell, we got a whole religion active in forming government policy against personal preference,, in this land of the free...:yh_flag
Showing I understand the wanting,, of those offended by certain preferences..
I just believe we should keep thinking, no matter what results come from it.
Hey what do you think of Bush,,, reducing the discussion to the "N" word?
Clue to the blankity blank sentence.. Shift key
In case anyone hasn't figured it out yet...
Originally Posted by DrJ
I am like you that way,, I see no reason for laws,,but I am not in that life,,but I know this, my ex-wife feels she deserves half my pension and I don't even know that woman anymore,, but I realize she put up with my view of life long enough that some Judge(republican) felt the same exact way,,, so I think we should get rid of all laws of that nature,,,,,,,please lets rid the country of all laws that tie 2 together just because they shared a certain kind of "hell on earth" together,,,I'm 100% with you on this issue! Can I get an Amen!
acc wrote:
Do I take it that you agree with me that the gov't should not recognize marriage or have a legal definition of it? It would mean losing that 'married filing jointly' option on the form 1040, y'know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accountable
Do I take it that you agree with me that the gov't should not recognize marriage or have a legal definition of it? It would mean losing that 'married filing jointly' option on the form 1040, y'know.
jester wrote:
'Marriage' means nothing anymore, its been reduced to 'domestic partnership'. It's been devalued to the point that family means nothing anymore either. There is no unit of committment, its a dissolvable partnership, a mere written contract that has little benefit to the individuals and less to society.
My first gut reaction to 'domestic partnership/devalued is to jump in to the blame game, considering what advice I gave my daughters about how to judge possible partners,, in this quest we all have been involved in,, mating..
My first question being who is he, followed by secret thoughts of water boarding, and possible future plans of a Bourne Identity type mission on the life of the male in question,, :yh_wave
I ask them "How much money does he have? What does he do for a living? Is he willing to sacrifice his life savings for this love he is about to receive? This is my reaction,, with hindsight I can clearly see shouldn't have been the most important questions to ask,, you see by being a concerned non biased parent, who at one time, guilty of saying anything,, to get to what I thought,, in my youth as the ultimate prize, I knew for a fact men think only about themselves,, in this journey that changes lives,, having 4 children at the age of 24 revealed to me, I was merely worried about their financial futures,, a natural reaction..
Love wasn't the issue,, to me,,$$$ and my daughters inevitable broken heart,,being my only thought,,means I am to blame for the devalued partnership we call Marriage.. In this life of judgements without hindsight,, we all have a part in the future generations thinking about everything,, relationships,, marriage,, freedom,,and even our belief in much larger thought such as...spirituality...
Some look at this as a problem,, I see it as progress, because I have realized my re-thinking of everything in my mind came about because of results created by the idea that at times a man, a father, a son, a brother, has got to make a stand,,, which is true,, but lead me to a realization of limited sight,, at the times in my life I made a stand and presented the fact that I was right, and any opinion to the contrary,, was wrong... A marker, you might say, in the natural progression of the growth in one mans thinking.. My excuse being,, Hey people, I only have 2 eyes for christ sake,, what do you expect!!!
Not really Acc,, maybe if I didn't have the experience of having girls,, I could see why it is a possible notion to believe how its obviously unjust.....Hello!:yh_cry
It's a personal preference of mine,, that I can understand why it's not a reality. There are a lot of people that belive that certain preferences shouldn't be things we make laws about,, hell, we got a whole religion active in forming government policy against personal preference,, in this land of the free...:yh_flag
Showing I understand the wanting,, of those offended by certain preferences..
I just believe we should keep thinking, no matter what results come from it.
Hey what do you think of Bush,,, reducing the discussion to the "N" word?
Clue to the blankity blank sentence.. Shift key
In case anyone hasn't figured it out yet...
-
Accountable
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- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Jester;866866 wrote: 'Marriage' means nothing anymore, its been reduced to 'domestic partnership'. It's been devalued to the point that family means nothing anymore either. There is no unit of committment, its a dissolvable partnership, a mere written contract that has little benift to the individuals and less to society.
Right. And that should be expected when we take a holy institution and turn it into a secular law. It loses its religious grandeur. It becomes a rule with loopholes, and rules are made to be broken.
Right. And that should be expected when we take a holy institution and turn it into a secular law. It loses its religious grandeur. It becomes a rule with loopholes, and rules are made to be broken.
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Accountable
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Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Forgive me, Doc, but I couldn't follow you, maybe because I wasn't clear before that.
I'm of the opinion that marriage is a religious custom (holy matrimony) and should be only that. People marry or don't marry and still live together, or move out even though they married, and the legal definition is meaningless. The only thing it has done is drag marriage out of the church and left it neglected on the sidewalk.
I think marriage should not be recognized by law any more than christening or baptism is. I think it is too important to be left to secular government supervision.
Do you agree?
I'm of the opinion that marriage is a religious custom (holy matrimony) and should be only that. People marry or don't marry and still live together, or move out even though they married, and the legal definition is meaningless. The only thing it has done is drag marriage out of the church and left it neglected on the sidewalk.
I think marriage should not be recognized by law any more than christening or baptism is. I think it is too important to be left to secular government supervision.
Do you agree?
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ;853868 wrote:
I mean you'd think Reverend Wright was a pedophile,, and Barrack was right with him,, watching the door,, enjoying it,,,,,,,I find this an attack on Christianity..
Why hasn't this ever happen to a white Pastor/preacher/priest?
DrJ
You Ask:
"
Why hasn't this ever happen to a white Pastor/preacher/priest?"
Show me where a " WHITE Pastor/preacher/priest" EVER SAID these inflammatory statements (and was NOT rebuked or lost their standing) (see quotes below) about the black race as your hero Rev Wright has about the WHITE race??:
“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.†(sermon)
“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.†(2003)
“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.†(sermon)
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye,"
Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.
"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost,"
he told his congregation.
I mean you'd think Reverend Wright was a pedophile,, and Barrack was right with him,, watching the door,, enjoying it,,,,,,,I find this an attack on Christianity..
Why hasn't this ever happen to a white Pastor/preacher/priest?
DrJ
You Ask:
"
Why hasn't this ever happen to a white Pastor/preacher/priest?"
Show me where a " WHITE Pastor/preacher/priest" EVER SAID these inflammatory statements (and was NOT rebuked or lost their standing) (see quotes below) about the black race as your hero Rev Wright has about the WHITE race??:
“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.†(sermon)
“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.†(2003)
“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.†(sermon)
"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye,"
Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.
"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost,"
he told his congregation.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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Accountable
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Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Jester;867479 wrote: [...]
My point is, and maybe ACC's right, by the government getting involved in making marriage a civil legal issue to be managed by law, we devalued it, back when marriage was meant as a life long committment, and before it was a civil contract it meant something. Now government has become the new moral voice, by determination of law, who can and cannot marry, at what age, and whether theres a monetary benefit.
Marriage is a religous covenant, not a legal definition, by allwoing a legal definition of marraige the religious gave up the right to keep it a covenant under Gods moral law.
Its the faliure of the Church proper, to exemplify marraige by the action of living it in the Spirit of God towards the world. We always seek another law rather than Gods. I wonder why it is we want local authority rather than living under Gods basic moral law, surely if we all lived under Gods basic moral law we woudl not need any other law governing us. but maybe thats it, we have a say, although limited, in our laws, me thinks its more selfishness we want self government, not Gods law over us. Looks like 'self' is biting us in the butt again.
Jester;867505 wrote: I didnt understand you at first here but now I get ya ACC, it makes sense, my orignal thought was more specific to homosexuals devaluaing marriage by changing what marriage is.
Yesterday in CA the state courts shot down a ruling by votor that kept marriage between a man and a woman. Now I have to decide what I'm going to do. I wont live in a state that allows same gender marriages to marry. A ballot drive is on for November for a state constitutional amendment to make same gender marriage unconstitutional, which I fully support. If that gets trounced by the votors then I'll sell and move.
You just went both directions at once. :-2 Why do you care what CA, homosexual people, Presbeterians or Pagans call marriage, so long as you and your church hold to your definition, and raise your family in that way?
My point is, and maybe ACC's right, by the government getting involved in making marriage a civil legal issue to be managed by law, we devalued it, back when marriage was meant as a life long committment, and before it was a civil contract it meant something. Now government has become the new moral voice, by determination of law, who can and cannot marry, at what age, and whether theres a monetary benefit.
Marriage is a religous covenant, not a legal definition, by allwoing a legal definition of marraige the religious gave up the right to keep it a covenant under Gods moral law.
Its the faliure of the Church proper, to exemplify marraige by the action of living it in the Spirit of God towards the world. We always seek another law rather than Gods. I wonder why it is we want local authority rather than living under Gods basic moral law, surely if we all lived under Gods basic moral law we woudl not need any other law governing us. but maybe thats it, we have a say, although limited, in our laws, me thinks its more selfishness we want self government, not Gods law over us. Looks like 'self' is biting us in the butt again.
Jester;867505 wrote: I didnt understand you at first here but now I get ya ACC, it makes sense, my orignal thought was more specific to homosexuals devaluaing marriage by changing what marriage is.
Yesterday in CA the state courts shot down a ruling by votor that kept marriage between a man and a woman. Now I have to decide what I'm going to do. I wont live in a state that allows same gender marriages to marry. A ballot drive is on for November for a state constitutional amendment to make same gender marriage unconstitutional, which I fully support. If that gets trounced by the votors then I'll sell and move.
You just went both directions at once. :-2 Why do you care what CA, homosexual people, Presbeterians or Pagans call marriage, so long as you and your church hold to your definition, and raise your family in that way?
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
BTS wrote:
You Ask:
"
Why hasn't this ever happen to a white Pastor/preacher/priest?"
Show me where a " WHITE Pastor/preacher/priest" EVER SAID these inflammatory statements (and was NOT rebuked or lost their standing) (see quotes below) about the black race as your hero Rev Wright has about the WHITE race??:
I believe you have captured exactly why it got the reaction it did, because I have never heard a man of God even attempt to hold government accountable for its actions since the days of the civil rights movement, and I'll admit two things here,,one,, I wasn't old enough to understand it back then, and two,, I am white and the plight of another race never effected me,, like it may have if my skin had a different shade,, and my only comparison to what that might have been like, was being in a meeting at work, and not being taken seriously because of the length of my hair, and scruffy appearance,, realizing right away how people are labeled,, and how it changes a mans presentation, as I had to prove myself beyond this "biker type" mentality that was in someone elses mind.
We are in a new,, and to me,, a very interesting part of a discussion that has been going on in this world for centuries, I believe it can bring out the best in what this whole idea was about when the plans were being drawn up for different perspectives to live in the same place,, and actually understand one another..
I imagine this discussion as merely part of the process.. How we doing so far?
The "your hero' comment needs more explanation, because its the same type labeling technique that was used in the story of Peter(the rock),, in the bible,, to shine light on possible associates of a loon, who was successfully silenced by main stream religious leaders who were offended by the opinions of a man who also put God before Country in his sermons... Observations of people will always interest me,,even yours....
BTS wrote:
“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)
The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.” (2003)
“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.” (sermon)
These are observations,, do you truly believe he is refering to all white people? "we{in the US}" Grouping us all together is the agenda, for some,, and the wording is such, I must admit, but
I don't believe he is painting all white people with such a broad brush,, I know people interpret things different,, but from following his theme of trying to understand a country's possible flaws in the realities of race,, and how certain barriers were a reality,, for example in baseball,, players,,coaches and owners,, saying only that maybe when he says (We),, he means establishment,, more than anything... That's just me,, Do you see it different? A willingness to believe this is a mirror of sorts,, that has been a key part of the strategy that hasn't taken hold as yet..but still hoped for,, I'm sure..
Do you believe these statements are an attack on the white skins, as a whole? The people who would like us to think he meant all of us,, are thinking in terms of {we} being a voting block...
As of now,, I can't see any other reason why it would even matter,, same with Hagee and McCain...
BTS wrote: "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye,"
Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.
"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost,"
he told his congregation.
__________________
"One of the greatest tragedies
of life is the murder of
a beautiful theory by a gang of
brutal facts."
~ Benjamin Franklin~
9/11 caught me so off guard, the fact that there were people in this world that actually believed we deserved this enough to commit there lives to ensure that it happened,, made it an impossibility that I would ever be caught not paying attention to the world and the people in it ever again,,,
Sad,,,,,mad,,,glad,,,and afraid are emotions I will watch in all people,, especially the people in power,, understanding ourselves is key to everything we call truth.
I can spot a fear salesman a mile away now,, I make it a priority to spot the con,, and try to understand the perspective it comes from,,:sneaky:
and I can safely(in my mind) say,,Rev Wright,,,is not the enemy!
My Observation..:-6
Welcome to the conversation!
You Ask:
"
Why hasn't this ever happen to a white Pastor/preacher/priest?"
Show me where a " WHITE Pastor/preacher/priest" EVER SAID these inflammatory statements (and was NOT rebuked or lost their standing) (see quotes below) about the black race as your hero Rev Wright has about the WHITE race??:
I believe you have captured exactly why it got the reaction it did, because I have never heard a man of God even attempt to hold government accountable for its actions since the days of the civil rights movement, and I'll admit two things here,,one,, I wasn't old enough to understand it back then, and two,, I am white and the plight of another race never effected me,, like it may have if my skin had a different shade,, and my only comparison to what that might have been like, was being in a meeting at work, and not being taken seriously because of the length of my hair, and scruffy appearance,, realizing right away how people are labeled,, and how it changes a mans presentation, as I had to prove myself beyond this "biker type" mentality that was in someone elses mind.
We are in a new,, and to me,, a very interesting part of a discussion that has been going on in this world for centuries, I believe it can bring out the best in what this whole idea was about when the plans were being drawn up for different perspectives to live in the same place,, and actually understand one another..
I imagine this discussion as merely part of the process.. How we doing so far?
The "your hero' comment needs more explanation, because its the same type labeling technique that was used in the story of Peter(the rock),, in the bible,, to shine light on possible associates of a loon, who was successfully silenced by main stream religious leaders who were offended by the opinions of a man who also put God before Country in his sermons... Observations of people will always interest me,,even yours....
BTS wrote:
“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.” (sermon)
The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.” (2003)
“Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain’t! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty.” (sermon)
These are observations,, do you truly believe he is refering to all white people? "we{in the US}" Grouping us all together is the agenda, for some,, and the wording is such, I must admit, but
I don't believe he is painting all white people with such a broad brush,, I know people interpret things different,, but from following his theme of trying to understand a country's possible flaws in the realities of race,, and how certain barriers were a reality,, for example in baseball,, players,,coaches and owners,, saying only that maybe when he says (We),, he means establishment,, more than anything... That's just me,, Do you see it different? A willingness to believe this is a mirror of sorts,, that has been a key part of the strategy that hasn't taken hold as yet..but still hoped for,, I'm sure..
Do you believe these statements are an attack on the white skins, as a whole? The people who would like us to think he meant all of us,, are thinking in terms of {we} being a voting block...
As of now,, I can't see any other reason why it would even matter,, same with Hagee and McCain...
BTS wrote: "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye,"
Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.
"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost,"
he told his congregation.
__________________
"One of the greatest tragedies
of life is the murder of
a beautiful theory by a gang of
brutal facts."
~ Benjamin Franklin~
9/11 caught me so off guard, the fact that there were people in this world that actually believed we deserved this enough to commit there lives to ensure that it happened,, made it an impossibility that I would ever be caught not paying attention to the world and the people in it ever again,,,
Sad,,,,,mad,,,glad,,,and afraid are emotions I will watch in all people,, especially the people in power,, understanding ourselves is key to everything we call truth.
I can spot a fear salesman a mile away now,, I make it a priority to spot the con,, and try to understand the perspective it comes from,,:sneaky:
and I can safely(in my mind) say,,Rev Wright,,,is not the enemy!
My Observation..:-6
Welcome to the conversation!
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Accountable;866936 wrote: Forgive me, Doc, but I couldn't follow you, maybe because I wasn't clear before that.
I'm of the opinion that marriage is a religious custom (holy matrimony) and should be only that. People marry or don't marry and still live together, or move out even though they married, and the legal definition is meaningless. The only thing it has done is drag marriage out of the church and left it neglected on the sidewalk.
I think marriage should not be recognized by law any more than christening or baptism is. I think it is too important to be left to secular government supervision.
Do you agree?
I have to be honest,, I haven't thought of that solution,, but I have known people that have found themselves in situations, that because of the legal ramifications,
tricked into marriage only to find out later,, the love of their life for a time, seemed more interested with the financial bump they were going to receive, than the more personal meaning,, and it made me suspicious of some of my dates,, sometimes un-fairly,, I must say,, but I can understand why a woman might find the financial part of marriage,, more of a security blanket than spooning.....
I think the priorities of woman has shaded the whole idea of marriage,, as well as anything else we can think of,, for me anyway... I do see what your concern is, but for the women who are pure in heart I have to believe are in need of some kind of legal protection,, especially when children are involved, I haven't went down that avenue where the same sex community's problems are concerned,, Love ,, in my mind, should be what's thought of when any union of two are concerned, if keeping the state out of it is what it takes to put marriage back in the golden light,, well,, so be it!
I'm more worried about the sanity of Americans, who I believe are about to find out some discouraging things about the people in power,, who have brought this issue to the front of peoples minds, that maybe the truth of the politicians right to sell voters a bill of goods, will sting a bit,, the fact that politicians don't really care about these issues unless their counting votes,, will hurt many of the opinions people have used to choose candidates,,,,I call it,',fools goat syndrome' when someone finally catches that ray of light that maybe these people they supported in elections didn't respect the voters that pushed them over the top,,,,, and merely played on their obvious unawareness,, as American voters,, as to why people get into politics in the first place...Honesty and integrity will be questioned.
I know theres still rays of sunshine in this issue, because I talked to my youngest the other day,, and she is working at a firm in Cincy,,a building full of lawyers,, and who do you think she'd be talking to?
The Parking Attendent!!!:-5
God love her!!
I'm of the opinion that marriage is a religious custom (holy matrimony) and should be only that. People marry or don't marry and still live together, or move out even though they married, and the legal definition is meaningless. The only thing it has done is drag marriage out of the church and left it neglected on the sidewalk.
I think marriage should not be recognized by law any more than christening or baptism is. I think it is too important to be left to secular government supervision.
Do you agree?
I have to be honest,, I haven't thought of that solution,, but I have known people that have found themselves in situations, that because of the legal ramifications,
tricked into marriage only to find out later,, the love of their life for a time, seemed more interested with the financial bump they were going to receive, than the more personal meaning,, and it made me suspicious of some of my dates,, sometimes un-fairly,, I must say,, but I can understand why a woman might find the financial part of marriage,, more of a security blanket than spooning.....
I think the priorities of woman has shaded the whole idea of marriage,, as well as anything else we can think of,, for me anyway... I do see what your concern is, but for the women who are pure in heart I have to believe are in need of some kind of legal protection,, especially when children are involved, I haven't went down that avenue where the same sex community's problems are concerned,, Love ,, in my mind, should be what's thought of when any union of two are concerned, if keeping the state out of it is what it takes to put marriage back in the golden light,, well,, so be it!
I'm more worried about the sanity of Americans, who I believe are about to find out some discouraging things about the people in power,, who have brought this issue to the front of peoples minds, that maybe the truth of the politicians right to sell voters a bill of goods, will sting a bit,, the fact that politicians don't really care about these issues unless their counting votes,, will hurt many of the opinions people have used to choose candidates,,,,I call it,',fools goat syndrome' when someone finally catches that ray of light that maybe these people they supported in elections didn't respect the voters that pushed them over the top,,,,, and merely played on their obvious unawareness,, as American voters,, as to why people get into politics in the first place...Honesty and integrity will be questioned.
I know theres still rays of sunshine in this issue, because I talked to my youngest the other day,, and she is working at a firm in Cincy,,a building full of lawyers,, and who do you think she'd be talking to?
The Parking Attendent!!!:-5
God love her!!
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Here you have the man,, explaining,,
How much of any of this even matters to those already cemented in a position.
:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6
(CNN) -- The Rev. Jeremiah Wright on Monday said the black church, not him, had been subjected to attacks in the 2008 presidential campaign.
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright on Monday said the black church in some ways is "invisible to the dominant culture."
Speaking before the National Press Club, Sen. Barack Obama's former pastor sought to give insight into the black church and clarify some of his remarks that have sparked a firestorm.
Earlier this year, some of Wright's sermons, circulated and widely discussed on the Internet and on television, became an issue in the Democratic presidential race because of the former pastor's ties to Obama.
Wright is a retired pastor from the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Illinois, where Obama worships.
In one sermon, Wright said the U.S. had brought the September 11 attacks upon itself and said "America's chickens are coming home to roost."
Asked to explain those remarks, Wright said, "Have you heard the whole sermon? ... No, you haven't heard the whole sermon. That nullifies that question." Watch as Wright explains his 9/11 comments »
Wright said those who heard the entire sermon would have known that he was quoting the ambassador from Iraq and keeping in line with biblical principles.
"Jesus said, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' You cannot do terrorism on other people and expect it never to come back on you. Those are biblical principles, not Jeremiah Wright bombastic principles," he said. Watch as Wright questions his critics' patriotism »
Wright shot back at the notion that Obama has walked away from him, saying the candidate "distanced himself from some of my remarks. ... He had to distance himself, because he's a politician, from what the media was saying I had said, which was un-American."
Obama, when asked what he could do to keep Wright's latest comments from dragging him down, replied:
"I think people will understand that I am not perfect and that there are going to be folks in my past like Rev. Wright that may cause them some concern -- but that ultimately, my 20 years of service and the values that I've written about and spoken about and promoted are their values and what they're concerned about. And that's what this camp has been about and what it's going to continue to be about."
Wright said sound bites from his sermons were taken out of context and said the black religious tradition, despite its long history, is in some ways "invisible to the dominant culture."
The theology of the black church is a "theology of liberation, it is a theology of transformation and it is ultimately a theology of reconciliation," he said.
Reiterating some of the same points from that dinner, Wright said, "Being different does not mean one is deficient -- it simply means one is different, like snowflakes."
Wright said reconciliation means "we embrace our individual rich histories."
He said it also means rooting out "any teaching of superiority, inferiority, hatred or prejudice" and recognizing that each person "is one of God's children ... no better, no worse."
"Only then will liberation, transformation and reconciliation become realities and cease being ever-elusive ideals," he said.
At the height of the Wright controversy, Obama gave a speech on race relations, rejecting his ex-pastor's controversial comments but saying he could not repudiate the man himself.
"I'm not here for political reasons," Wright said Sunday. "I am not a politician. I know that fact will surprise many of you because many in the corporate-owned media have made it seem as if I had announced that I'm running for the Oval Office. I am not running for the Oval Office.
"I've been running for Jesus a long, long time, and I'm not tired yet."
I find the race issue in the voting public the saddest mark on America today,,,,,now I understand the need for super delegates...
The Ignorance of a percentage of racist American voters, is higher than what is being admitted,, The Rev Wright issue is the true mark of racism in America,, used by closet racists as their reasoning, for not voting for a black man,,I am convinced.
Can you imagine,, if there is a God,, what he/she is seeing,,,,
I personally believe we can thank the right wing political strategist for holding up this mirror for all Americans to see,, in their apparent desperation to stay in power,, lowering the bar enough to expose the true intelligence of some so-called patriots
,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6
How much of any of this even matters to those already cemented in a position.
:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6
(CNN) -- The Rev. Jeremiah Wright on Monday said the black church, not him, had been subjected to attacks in the 2008 presidential campaign.
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright on Monday said the black church in some ways is "invisible to the dominant culture."
Speaking before the National Press Club, Sen. Barack Obama's former pastor sought to give insight into the black church and clarify some of his remarks that have sparked a firestorm.
Earlier this year, some of Wright's sermons, circulated and widely discussed on the Internet and on television, became an issue in the Democratic presidential race because of the former pastor's ties to Obama.
Wright is a retired pastor from the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Illinois, where Obama worships.
In one sermon, Wright said the U.S. had brought the September 11 attacks upon itself and said "America's chickens are coming home to roost."
Asked to explain those remarks, Wright said, "Have you heard the whole sermon? ... No, you haven't heard the whole sermon. That nullifies that question." Watch as Wright explains his 9/11 comments »
Wright said those who heard the entire sermon would have known that he was quoting the ambassador from Iraq and keeping in line with biblical principles.
"Jesus said, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' You cannot do terrorism on other people and expect it never to come back on you. Those are biblical principles, not Jeremiah Wright bombastic principles," he said. Watch as Wright questions his critics' patriotism »
Wright shot back at the notion that Obama has walked away from him, saying the candidate "distanced himself from some of my remarks. ... He had to distance himself, because he's a politician, from what the media was saying I had said, which was un-American."
Obama, when asked what he could do to keep Wright's latest comments from dragging him down, replied:
"I think people will understand that I am not perfect and that there are going to be folks in my past like Rev. Wright that may cause them some concern -- but that ultimately, my 20 years of service and the values that I've written about and spoken about and promoted are their values and what they're concerned about. And that's what this camp has been about and what it's going to continue to be about."
Wright said sound bites from his sermons were taken out of context and said the black religious tradition, despite its long history, is in some ways "invisible to the dominant culture."
The theology of the black church is a "theology of liberation, it is a theology of transformation and it is ultimately a theology of reconciliation," he said.
Reiterating some of the same points from that dinner, Wright said, "Being different does not mean one is deficient -- it simply means one is different, like snowflakes."
Wright said reconciliation means "we embrace our individual rich histories."
He said it also means rooting out "any teaching of superiority, inferiority, hatred or prejudice" and recognizing that each person "is one of God's children ... no better, no worse."
"Only then will liberation, transformation and reconciliation become realities and cease being ever-elusive ideals," he said.
At the height of the Wright controversy, Obama gave a speech on race relations, rejecting his ex-pastor's controversial comments but saying he could not repudiate the man himself.
"I'm not here for political reasons," Wright said Sunday. "I am not a politician. I know that fact will surprise many of you because many in the corporate-owned media have made it seem as if I had announced that I'm running for the Oval Office. I am not running for the Oval Office.
"I've been running for Jesus a long, long time, and I'm not tired yet."
I find the race issue in the voting public the saddest mark on America today,,,,,now I understand the need for super delegates...
The Ignorance of a percentage of racist American voters, is higher than what is being admitted,, The Rev Wright issue is the true mark of racism in America,, used by closet racists as their reasoning, for not voting for a black man,,I am convinced.
Can you imagine,, if there is a God,, what he/she is seeing,,,,
I personally believe we can thank the right wing political strategist for holding up this mirror for all Americans to see,, in their apparent desperation to stay in power,, lowering the bar enough to expose the true intelligence of some so-called patriots
,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
That's been heavily edited, Doc. The whole interview is on youtube and is interesting and entertaining enough to watch the whole thing. I think it's in 3 parts. Two things that are really interesting are his reference to a childhood game called 'dozens' which is a game of insults, and his very thorough explanation of 'different not deficient.'
For those champing at the bit to find something negative about Wright, heck, you'll find it anywhere so you may as well not look. I just like to listen to the man speak, love to laugh about the dozens, and find it interesting how, in speaking proudly of those of African descent, he agrees with what I've heard from white supremecists.
For those champing at the bit to find something negative about Wright, heck, you'll find it anywhere so you may as well not look. I just like to listen to the man speak, love to laugh about the dozens, and find it interesting how, in speaking proudly of those of African descent, he agrees with what I've heard from white supremecists.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Accountable;868832 wrote: That's been heavily edited, Doc. The whole interview is on youtube and is interesting and entertaining enough to watch the whole thing. I think it's in 3 parts. Two things that are really interesting are his reference to a childhood game called 'dozens' which is a game of insults, and his very thorough explanation of 'different not deficient.'
The mere intelligence of this man tells me he knows exactly from where he speaks, and understands the problem is more in the ears listening,, I mean I believe it twas the "King" himself that helped carry on this "don't mess wit my momma",game....................YOU CAN
KNOCK ME DOWN>>SPIT IN MA FACE>>DRAG MY NAME ALL ROVER THE PLACE
YOU CAN DO ANYTHING>>white boy.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist
acc wrote:
For those champing at the bit to find something negative about Wright, heck, you'll find it anywhere so you may as well not look. I just like to listen to the man speak, love to laugh about the dozens, and find it interesting how, in speaking proudly of those of African descent, he agrees with what I've heard from white supremecists.
We are Indignant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is the phrase I hear from that,, and maybe you are correct in that we understand things like this coming from are brother cone-heads,
but I have to face this ugly fact about me right here,, if anyone,, come to my mommas house,, spraying bullets,, lighting crosses,,, just because of my skin color, I would not be here writing this,, every breath in my body after that would have a more definite purpose,,, like building a fence to mount the heads of those
responsible,, maybe thats my problem,, I think he's being a little to democratic about the whole deal,,,,,,,,,,,Ya gotta respect the intelligence,,I agree!:-6
I do remember a race of people that seen all white people inferior,, from history,
that some Americans are pretty proud of,,Nagisaki,,, Hiroshima,,,Iwo Jima,,,
you see judging people from such an ignorant platform as skin color,, is a mistake paid for by the whole fricken race..:-5
Jester,,
Why is the drill sargeant so hard on the fat guy that can't keep up?:yh_sweat
The mere intelligence of this man tells me he knows exactly from where he speaks, and understands the problem is more in the ears listening,, I mean I believe it twas the "King" himself that helped carry on this "don't mess wit my momma",game....................YOU CAN
KNOCK ME DOWN>>SPIT IN MA FACE>>DRAG MY NAME ALL ROVER THE PLACE
YOU CAN DO ANYTHING>>white boy.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:guitarist
acc wrote:
For those champing at the bit to find something negative about Wright, heck, you'll find it anywhere so you may as well not look. I just like to listen to the man speak, love to laugh about the dozens, and find it interesting how, in speaking proudly of those of African descent, he agrees with what I've heard from white supremecists.
We are Indignant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is the phrase I hear from that,, and maybe you are correct in that we understand things like this coming from are brother cone-heads,
but I have to face this ugly fact about me right here,, if anyone,, come to my mommas house,, spraying bullets,, lighting crosses,,, just because of my skin color, I would not be here writing this,, every breath in my body after that would have a more definite purpose,,, like building a fence to mount the heads of those
responsible,, maybe thats my problem,, I think he's being a little to democratic about the whole deal,,,,,,,,,,,Ya gotta respect the intelligence,,I agree!:-6
I do remember a race of people that seen all white people inferior,, from history,
that some Americans are pretty proud of,,Nagisaki,,, Hiroshima,,,Iwo Jima,,,
you see judging people from such an ignorant platform as skin color,, is a mistake paid for by the whole fricken race..:-5
Jester,,
Why is the drill sargeant so hard on the fat guy that can't keep up?:yh_sweat
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ wrote:
"He is a man of ----- who can truly get the --- done if you ----- his apparent ----------- of the -----./stop/
Try and understand what this sentence is saying to you,,fill in the blanks to this sentence in your mind...
How many different ways can you see this,,,and spin FACTS to your advantage, and convince others of the same?
is about how they have been treated throughout history,, to me it MEANS we white people are either,
we would rather the black people would assume we are trying to do a better JOB on this issue and any negative comments EXCLUDE us, and make us feel like we are trying for nothing.. I hope its the latter...
I have a belief in people,, even when I'm wrong,, I find it easier to navigate after being wrong than at any other time of being 100% right about anything,, I believe if the Black man is cheated in anyway shape or form,, I don't care what spin they apply to it,,,it will shine a light on the RETARDATION of the population of this whole country,,
means,,,,,,,,,,job,,,,exclude,,,retardation,,,facts
It's in the valleys we grow..
We are so programmed by the spin of truth we no longer even try to un-spin the things media feeds us,, and I can understand those with busy lives who are honest and believe in taking the people around them at face value,, don't have the time nor the energy to look beneath the surface of things, and frankly, in a perfect world shouldn't have to,, but the fact remains,, and this gets me the most,
The spin peddler,,, knows all this,,sound bytes are the tools,,of deceit..
The rainmaker,,, shows us how everything is connected,, and ain't it funny how all subjects brought to the fore front,, are the most devisive...Clouding issues..
They just sit back and smile,, all the way to the bank,, and history will never even record their existence,, just us unsuspecting lamb,, and we will agree...
:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6
"He is a man of ----- who can truly get the --- done if you ----- his apparent ----------- of the -----./stop/
Try and understand what this sentence is saying to you,,fill in the blanks to this sentence in your mind...
How many different ways can you see this,,,and spin FACTS to your advantage, and convince others of the same?
is about how they have been treated throughout history,, to me it MEANS we white people are either,
we would rather the black people would assume we are trying to do a better JOB on this issue and any negative comments EXCLUDE us, and make us feel like we are trying for nothing.. I hope its the latter...
I have a belief in people,, even when I'm wrong,, I find it easier to navigate after being wrong than at any other time of being 100% right about anything,, I believe if the Black man is cheated in anyway shape or form,, I don't care what spin they apply to it,,,it will shine a light on the RETARDATION of the population of this whole country,,
means,,,,,,,,,,job,,,,exclude,,,retardation,,,facts
It's in the valleys we grow..
We are so programmed by the spin of truth we no longer even try to un-spin the things media feeds us,, and I can understand those with busy lives who are honest and believe in taking the people around them at face value,, don't have the time nor the energy to look beneath the surface of things, and frankly, in a perfect world shouldn't have to,, but the fact remains,, and this gets me the most,
The spin peddler,,, knows all this,,sound bytes are the tools,,of deceit..
The rainmaker,,, shows us how everything is connected,, and ain't it funny how all subjects brought to the fore front,, are the most devisive...Clouding issues..
They just sit back and smile,, all the way to the bank,, and history will never even record their existence,, just us unsuspecting lamb,, and we will agree...
:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:-6
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Accountable;868832 wrote: I just like to listen to the man speak, love to laugh about the dozens, and find it interesting how, in speaking proudly of those of African descent, he agrees with what I've heard from white supremecists.
DrJ;869182 wrote: We are Indignant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is the phrase I hear from that,, and maybe you are correct in that we understand things like this coming from are brother cone-heads,
but I have to face this ugly fact about me right here,, if anyone,, come to my mommas house,, spraying bullets,, lighting crosses,,, just because of my skin color, I would not be here writing this,, every breath in my body after that would have a more definite purpose,,, like building a fence to mount the heads of those
responsible,, maybe thats my problem,, I think he's being a little to democratic about the whole deal,,,,,
Instead of hearing indignant, try hearing stereotyping. The answer to negative stereotyping is not positive stereotyping. That was my point. And just to needle you, you're giving him a pass again.
DrJ;869182 wrote: We are Indignant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,is the phrase I hear from that,, and maybe you are correct in that we understand things like this coming from are brother cone-heads,
but I have to face this ugly fact about me right here,, if anyone,, come to my mommas house,, spraying bullets,, lighting crosses,,, just because of my skin color, I would not be here writing this,, every breath in my body after that would have a more definite purpose,,, like building a fence to mount the heads of those
responsible,, maybe thats my problem,, I think he's being a little to democratic about the whole deal,,,,,
Instead of hearing indignant, try hearing stereotyping. The answer to negative stereotyping is not positive stereotyping. That was my point. And just to needle you, you're giving him a pass again.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Accountable;869265 wrote: Instead of hearing indignant, try hearing stereotyping. The answer to negative stereotyping is not positive stereotyping. That was my point. And just to needle you, you're giving him a pass again.
Well alright,, but I believe labeling goes on everyone,, but I don't know what to think about that,, maybe its some kind of sign of progress,, in the mountain we all had to climb there,,
You have realize I was thrust into this,, I've been watching the strategists for a while,,, and this was such a low blow in my opinion,, I mean its not like they didn't have this voting block already,,, racist,,
I guess they were going after the people more on that type of fence,,
its new to me,, I know I'm sometimes hard to follow,, because I assume everyone is paying attention to politics,, and the rainmakers of this world,,
the cloud machines,,,
Do you think I'm nuts for thinking in terms of media spin and how it catches hold with the people,,, I just find it interesting,,
I used to talk about with my granny,, I don't know why but you'd of thought Michael Jackson lived next door to her,, and she seen him with the children,,
I would try to convince her,,:-5 just because they say it on TV don't make reality!
Don't worry,,,She told me I hard to follow,,,and full of it as well,, and I had better wake up:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Hello Guest!
Well alright,, but I believe labeling goes on everyone,, but I don't know what to think about that,, maybe its some kind of sign of progress,, in the mountain we all had to climb there,,
You have realize I was thrust into this,, I've been watching the strategists for a while,,, and this was such a low blow in my opinion,, I mean its not like they didn't have this voting block already,,, racist,,
I guess they were going after the people more on that type of fence,,
its new to me,, I know I'm sometimes hard to follow,, because I assume everyone is paying attention to politics,, and the rainmakers of this world,,
the cloud machines,,,
Do you think I'm nuts for thinking in terms of media spin and how it catches hold with the people,,, I just find it interesting,,
I used to talk about with my granny,, I don't know why but you'd of thought Michael Jackson lived next door to her,, and she seen him with the children,,
I would try to convince her,,:-5 just because they say it on TV don't make reality!
Don't worry,,,She told me I hard to follow,,,and full of it as well,, and I had better wake up:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Hello Guest!
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
DrJ;870057 wrote: Do you think I'm nuts for thinking in terms of media spin and how it catches hold with the people,,, I just find it interesting,,
It is interesting, that's for sure. I sometimes wish we could hook them up to generators. Imagine the electricity all that spinning could produce.
It is interesting, that's for sure. I sometimes wish we could hook them up to generators. Imagine the electricity all that spinning could produce.
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Accountable;870610 wrote: It is interesting, that's for sure. I sometimes wish we could hook them up to generators. Imagine the electricity all that spinning could produce.
I started doing this,,writing,, because of a dissatisfaction with what was happening in government, and the media's coverage,, of it...
Speaking of the different spins of what was actually happening,,,
Having the president,,, of the United States of America,,, get on camera, in front of a microphone, and a room full of what seemed to be some very intelligent reporters, and come off looking, acting,, and sounding like a teen ager that hasn't learned how to lie very well yet, was such a surprise/letdown to me, I couldn't help but think something was a loof,,in reality... If I gave him the benefit of the doubt,, I could possibly think he was expressing ideas that really weren't his own,
that at best he must have been just handed the paper that the idea was written on,, and didn't have time to understand it as yet....:-2
I thought we should of heard something about it from these obviously well educated people who have eyes and ears,, just like me, but acted like it was taboo to admit the obvious,, that maybe they'd mention it to him,, like,,
Hey Mr. Pres tighten up,, you do realize people are out there watching??,,
I have to be honest here,, it scared me,, it made me think it was just a scripted play,, people just going thru the motions, as they have always done,, actors, camera men,, sound men, all hitting their marks, where to stand, sit,,when to say lines,, when to react,, and anyone who wasn't in time according to script was down played,, like those asking questions that required more than one sentence answers,, or required someone to tell lies that weren't pre-planned in the script as if they thought no one was paying attention out here,, Bush merely being the worst actor in Hollywood history.. and this was understood,, and politely ignored.
I notice he got himself in trouble a couple times by saying something so obvious it couldn't be ignored,, like spying on Americans,,WHOOPS!!!
Well I also started listening to these so-called experts,,pundits on the cable news shows,, half of who didn't sound like they got out of the house much,, or when they did they hung out with a bunch of country club jocks, describing this terrible world,, like it was some movie they were watching, laughing and joking,, as Bush/Cheney and Co. were legally robbing the US treasury.....
Making certain companies benefit in the billions while we got people out here in America starving, sick,, losing everything, doctors,, dentists,, lawyers,, picking and choosing the people they treat or represent,,,, which isn't nothing new,,,,
but when you put everything together it makes America as a whole,, look as if it has lost its heart,,somewhere...NO?:-3
This is something I have to see change, or at least write about it,, just for my own sanity,, because I'm smarter than that,, and if I'm smarter than anyone in power positions in this country,, we are in big,,big,,big trouble,, :-5 I'm not kiddin' about that either!
I mean the fact that the attitudes of the right-wing of today, actually are being considered viable, says a lot for freedom,, but nothing about the intelligence or the maturity of those who are buying it...
The republican talking pts are a joke,, I mean there ideas have got the maturity of teen agers in high school,, about how to win elections...
I wrote this back in 2000,,in an op-ed in the City Beat,, here in Cincinnati,, this is back before I could even spell.. The media going right with it because the more negative a campaign the better ratings are,, and the more money they make..... The result being Bush/Cheney,, and a debt for the children and our grand children who aren't even born yet,,,Thank you Christian Right!:yh_hypno
I was so surprised at how the process of running for President had lowered itself to the maturity level of picking a high school home coming Queen..
The arguement being,, I need to know whats good about you, not whats bad about the one running against you,, and Bush/Rove never had anything to say good about themselves,,so every ad they played was completely negative about McCain,, they never wasted any money playing ads positive about themselves..
I believe 2000 was the year McCain was educated about the relationship between our government,, and the power of Corporate world,,and may have been promised the chance to be Bush's successor,:yh_eyebro
Just one of my crazy theories..
I can see the same things today,, McCain is handed things to say,, as if its all he is allowed to say,, like he's a mindless zombie,, watch how he speaks,
he looks so pitiful as he agrees with another child,, down the block,, APPEASER!! APPEASER!! APPEASER!!,,, the team strategy!! name callin'!
Like children get when they are afraid they are about to lose...
Just aim the fan like a responsible adult, load the shovel with all different kinds of shiite,, and feed it into the fan,,which by the way,,FAN=media/POLITICAL PUNDITS,, and may the best shiite dodger win..
This is what us adults out here get to watch,, and we call this democracy,, at its finest,, and heres the sad part,, the voters expect nothing less,, when in reality need so much more,, but fear in media people made it impossible,, those are good jobs I bet,, wouldn't want to speak up,, and get fired,, hey,, I'm a union man that speaks up,, I understand what happens,,
if your more intelligent than your boss,, and you try to speak up when you know something is wrong,, you are showed the door and called a trouble maker.
You got to go along,, no matter how stupid,, just to get along in this world of corporate ownership,,
I love this country,, I think we can be better than that,, We shall see!
I started doing this,,writing,, because of a dissatisfaction with what was happening in government, and the media's coverage,, of it...
Speaking of the different spins of what was actually happening,,,
Having the president,,, of the United States of America,,, get on camera, in front of a microphone, and a room full of what seemed to be some very intelligent reporters, and come off looking, acting,, and sounding like a teen ager that hasn't learned how to lie very well yet, was such a surprise/letdown to me, I couldn't help but think something was a loof,,in reality... If I gave him the benefit of the doubt,, I could possibly think he was expressing ideas that really weren't his own,
that at best he must have been just handed the paper that the idea was written on,, and didn't have time to understand it as yet....:-2
I thought we should of heard something about it from these obviously well educated people who have eyes and ears,, just like me, but acted like it was taboo to admit the obvious,, that maybe they'd mention it to him,, like,,
Hey Mr. Pres tighten up,, you do realize people are out there watching??,,
I have to be honest here,, it scared me,, it made me think it was just a scripted play,, people just going thru the motions, as they have always done,, actors, camera men,, sound men, all hitting their marks, where to stand, sit,,when to say lines,, when to react,, and anyone who wasn't in time according to script was down played,, like those asking questions that required more than one sentence answers,, or required someone to tell lies that weren't pre-planned in the script as if they thought no one was paying attention out here,, Bush merely being the worst actor in Hollywood history.. and this was understood,, and politely ignored.
I notice he got himself in trouble a couple times by saying something so obvious it couldn't be ignored,, like spying on Americans,,WHOOPS!!!
Well I also started listening to these so-called experts,,pundits on the cable news shows,, half of who didn't sound like they got out of the house much,, or when they did they hung out with a bunch of country club jocks, describing this terrible world,, like it was some movie they were watching, laughing and joking,, as Bush/Cheney and Co. were legally robbing the US treasury.....
Making certain companies benefit in the billions while we got people out here in America starving, sick,, losing everything, doctors,, dentists,, lawyers,, picking and choosing the people they treat or represent,,,, which isn't nothing new,,,,
but when you put everything together it makes America as a whole,, look as if it has lost its heart,,somewhere...NO?:-3
This is something I have to see change, or at least write about it,, just for my own sanity,, because I'm smarter than that,, and if I'm smarter than anyone in power positions in this country,, we are in big,,big,,big trouble,, :-5 I'm not kiddin' about that either!
I mean the fact that the attitudes of the right-wing of today, actually are being considered viable, says a lot for freedom,, but nothing about the intelligence or the maturity of those who are buying it...
The republican talking pts are a joke,, I mean there ideas have got the maturity of teen agers in high school,, about how to win elections...
I wrote this back in 2000,,in an op-ed in the City Beat,, here in Cincinnati,, this is back before I could even spell.. The media going right with it because the more negative a campaign the better ratings are,, and the more money they make..... The result being Bush/Cheney,, and a debt for the children and our grand children who aren't even born yet,,,Thank you Christian Right!:yh_hypno
I was so surprised at how the process of running for President had lowered itself to the maturity level of picking a high school home coming Queen..
The arguement being,, I need to know whats good about you, not whats bad about the one running against you,, and Bush/Rove never had anything to say good about themselves,,so every ad they played was completely negative about McCain,, they never wasted any money playing ads positive about themselves..
I believe 2000 was the year McCain was educated about the relationship between our government,, and the power of Corporate world,,and may have been promised the chance to be Bush's successor,:yh_eyebro
Just one of my crazy theories..
I can see the same things today,, McCain is handed things to say,, as if its all he is allowed to say,, like he's a mindless zombie,, watch how he speaks,
he looks so pitiful as he agrees with another child,, down the block,, APPEASER!! APPEASER!! APPEASER!!,,, the team strategy!! name callin'!
Like children get when they are afraid they are about to lose...
Just aim the fan like a responsible adult, load the shovel with all different kinds of shiite,, and feed it into the fan,,which by the way,,FAN=media/POLITICAL PUNDITS,, and may the best shiite dodger win..
This is what us adults out here get to watch,, and we call this democracy,, at its finest,, and heres the sad part,, the voters expect nothing less,, when in reality need so much more,, but fear in media people made it impossible,, those are good jobs I bet,, wouldn't want to speak up,, and get fired,, hey,, I'm a union man that speaks up,, I understand what happens,,
if your more intelligent than your boss,, and you try to speak up when you know something is wrong,, you are showed the door and called a trouble maker.
You got to go along,, no matter how stupid,, just to get along in this world of corporate ownership,,
I love this country,, I think we can be better than that,, We shall see!
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
A father watched his young daughter playing in the garden. He smiled as he reflected on how sweet and pure his little girl was. Tears formed in his eyes as he thought about her seeing the wonders. Suddenly she just stopped and stared at the ground. He went over to her to see what work of God had captured her attention.
He noticed she was looking at two spiders mating.'Daddy, what are those two spiders doing?' she asked.'They're mating,' her father replied.'What do you call the spider on top?' she asked.'That's a Daddy Longlegs,' her father answered. 'So, the other one is a Mommy Longlegs?' the little girl asked. As his heart soared with the joy of such a cute and innocent question he replied, 'No dear. Both of them are Daddy Longlegs.
The little girl, looking a little puzzled, thought for a moment, then took her foot and stomped them flat, saying 'Well, we're not having any of that brokeback mountain **** in our garden.'
Brings a tear to your eye...doesn’t it?
The clouds of our time,,,,:-5
are the sick jokes that keep minds off the $$$!!!!
The saddest part for me is knowing how a population can be duped,,,
watching it happen,, and called crazy for mentioning it.....
Divided we fail!
He noticed she was looking at two spiders mating.'Daddy, what are those two spiders doing?' she asked.'They're mating,' her father replied.'What do you call the spider on top?' she asked.'That's a Daddy Longlegs,' her father answered. 'So, the other one is a Mommy Longlegs?' the little girl asked. As his heart soared with the joy of such a cute and innocent question he replied, 'No dear. Both of them are Daddy Longlegs.
The little girl, looking a little puzzled, thought for a moment, then took her foot and stomped them flat, saying 'Well, we're not having any of that brokeback mountain **** in our garden.'
Brings a tear to your eye...doesn’t it?
The clouds of our time,,,,:-5
are the sick jokes that keep minds off the $$$!!!!
The saddest part for me is knowing how a population can be duped,,,
watching it happen,, and called crazy for mentioning it.....
Divided we fail!
Why don't more Christians defend Rev Wright?
Techniques work because we are Human,, now if somehow we can get past the insult of being called human,, I believe the American voter just might start seeing thru some of these,,"a whole lot less than honest" political strategies,, Have you ever wondered how many you didn't catch thru time?
Has anyone ever realized they were caught up in something, a thinking,, an opinion developed before they understood all the facts?
We all have!! Christianity is a kind of spiritual politics,,, don't you think?
Understanding why it works might help,,,,,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bandwagon effect, also known as social proof or "cromo effect" and closely related to opportunism, is the observation that people often do and believe things because many other people do and believe the same things. The effect is often pejoratively called herding instinct, particularly when applied to adolescents. People tend to follow the crowd without examining the merits of a particular thing. The bandwagon effect is the reason for the bandwagon fallacy's success.
The bandwagon effect is well-documented in behavioral psychology and has many applications. The general rule is that conduct or beliefs spread among people, as fads clearly do, with "the probability of any individual adopting it increasing with the proportion who have already done so." [1] As more people come to believe in something, others also hop on the bandwagon regardless of the underlying evidence.
Contents [hide]
1 Origin of the Phrase
2 Use in Politics
3 Use in Microeconomics
4 Use in the Music Industry
5 Use in Sports
6 Controversy
7 References
8 See also
[edit] Origin of the Phrase
Literally, a bandwagon is a wagon which carries the band in a parade, circus or other entertainment.[2] The phrase "jump on the bandwagon" was first used in American politics in 1848 because of Dan Rice, President Lincoln's court jester.[3] Dan Rice, a professional circus clown, used his bandwagon for Zachary Taylor's campaign appearances, to gain attention by using the music. As Taylor's campaign became more successful, more politicians strove for a seat on the bandwagon, hoping to be associated with the success. Later, during the time of William Jennings Bryan's 1900 presidential campaign, bandwagons had become standard in campaigns,[4] and 'jump on the bandwagon' was used as a derogatory term, implying that people were associating themselves with the success without considering what they associated themselves with.
[edit] Use in Politics
The bandwagon effect occurs in voting: some people vote for those candidates or parties who are likely to succeed (or are proclaimed as such by the media), hoping to be on the 'winner's side' in the end.[5] The bandwagon effect has been labeled to situations involving majority opinion, such as political outcomes, where people alter their opinions to the majority view (McAllister and Studlar 721).
Because of time zones, election results are broadcast in the eastern parts of the United States while polls are still open in the west. Due to this trend, behavior of voters in western United States has been previously investigated. In 1980, NBC News declared Ronald Reagan to be the winner of the presidential race on the basis of the exit polls several hours before the voting booths closed in the west.
Several studies have been done in order to test this theory of how the bandwagon effect and politics tie together. In 1994, a study by Robert K. Goidel and Todd G. Shields was published in The Journal of Politics. At the University of Kentucky, 180 students were randomly assigned to nine groups where they were asked questions about certain election scenarios. The scenarios presented to each group were identical, although about 70% of subjects received knowledge concerning the expected winner (Goidel and Shields 807). Independents, which are those who do not vote based on the endorsement of any party and are ultimately neutral, were extremely influenced and tended to lean towards the person expected to win (Goidel and Shields 807-808). Expectations played a significant role throughout the study. It was found that independents are twice as likely to vote for the Republican candidate when the Republican is expected to win. From the results, it was also found that when the Democrat was expected to win, independent Republicans and weak Republicans were more likely to vote for the Democratic candidate (Goidel and Shields 808).
A study by Albert Mehrabian, reported in The Journal of Applied Social Psychology (1998), tested the relative importance of the bandwagon (rally around the winner) effect versus the underdog (empathic support for those trailing) effect. Bogus poll results presented to voters prior to the 1996 Republican primary clearly showed the bandwagon effect to predominate on balance. Indeed, approximately 6% of the variance in the vote was explained in terms of the bogus polls, showing that poll results (whether accurate or inaccurate) can significantly influence election results in closely-contested elections. In particular, assuming that one candidate "is an initial favorite by a slim margin, reports of polls showing that candidate as the leader in the race will increase his or her favorable margin" (Mehrabian, 1998, p. 2128). Thus, as poll results are repeatedly reported, the bandwagon effect will tend to snowball and become a powerful aid to leading candidates.
During the 1992 U.S. presidential election, Vicki G. Morwitz and Carol Pluzinski conducted a study, which was published in The Journal of Consumer Research. At a large northeastern university, some of 214 volunteer business students were given the results of student and national polls indicating that Bill Clinton was in the lead. Others were not exposed to the results of the polls. Several students who had intended to vote for Bush changed their minds after seeing the poll results (Morwitz and Pluzinski 58-64).
Internationally, British polls have shown an increase to public exposure. Sixty-eight percent of voters had heard of the general election campaign results of the opinion poll in 1979. In 1987, this number of voters aware of the results increased to 74% (McAllister and Studlar 725). According to British studies, there is a consistent pattern of apparent bandwagon effects for the leading party.
[edit] Use in Microeconomics
In microeconomics, bandwagon effect describes interactions of demand and preference.[6] The bandwagon effect arises when people's preference for a commodity increases as the number of people buying it increases. This interaction potentially disturbs the normal results of the theory of supply and demand, which assumes that consumers make buying decisions solely based on price and their own personal preference. See network effect and Veblen good.
[edit] Use in the Music Industry
In music, bandwagon effect is a term for people who are fond of a musical group based on how popular the artist is at the time. For instance, certain people appreciate a song only once it is well-known.
[edit] Use in Sports
In sports, a 'bandwagoner' is a derogatory term for people who begin flocking to a team after they have achieved success. Fans of successful sporting teams who do not live in the traditional areas of their support are often accused of being 'bandwagon' fans or only show an interest in the team when they are performing well. Bandwagoner's are also often called glory-hunters or Fairweather fans.
[edit] Controversy
The bandwagon effects has been subject to some issues.
Despite anti-smoking campaigns, people often smoke cigarettes because they ignore them. Other issues that exist, is that they want to do it just to "fit in" hence the bandwagon effect. The bandwagon effect can have health issues and it can limit people's interest in music. People whose music interest is limited often rely on radio to entertain them despite the advent of MP3 players which would allow them to hear songs underplayed on the airwaves.
The bandwagon effect has also prevented potentially revolutionary sounds from experimental bands to hit the pop charts.
[edit] References
^ Andrew Colman, Oxford Dictionary of Psychology (Oxford: University, 2003) 77.
^ Bandwagon. Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ Dan Rice (1823-1901) — President Lincoln's Court Jester. Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ Bandwagon Effect. Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ New Evidence About the Existence of a Bandwagon Effect in the Opinion Formation Process. International Political Science Review, Vol. 14, No. 2, 203-213 (1993). Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ Harvey Leibenstein, “Bandwagon, Snob, and Veblen Effects in the Theory of Consumers’ Demand,” The Quarterly Journal of Economics (May 1950).
Goidel, Robert K., and Todd G. Shields. "The Vanishing Marginals, the Bandwagon, and the Mass Media." The Journal of Politics 56 (1994): 802-810. 11 Apr. 2007 .
McAllister, Ian, and Donley T. Studlar. "Bandwagon, Underdog, or Projection? Opinion Polls and Electoral Choice in Britain, 1979-1987." The Journal of Politics 53 (1991): 720-740. 9 Apr. 2007.
Mehrabian, Albert. "Effects of Poll Reports on Voter Preferences." Journal of Applied Social Psychology 28 (1998): 2119-2130. 11 Apr. 2007 .
Morwitz, Vicki G., and Carol Pluzinski. "Do Polls Reflect Opinions or Do Opinions Reflect Polls?" Journal of Consumer Research os 23 (1996): 53-65. 8 Apr. 2007.
[edit] See also
Bandwagon
Bandwagon fan
Bandwagoning
Collective behavior
Collective consciousness
Collective effervescence
Collective intelligence
Communal reinforcement
Conformism
Crowd psychology
Group behaviour
Herd behavior
Keeping up with the Joneses
List of cognitive biases
Me too
Meme
Network effect
Ochlocracy (commonly referred to as "mob rule")
Peer pressure
Sheeple
Social comparison theory
Spiral of silence
Veblen good
Fads and trends
Pop music
[hide]v • d • ePropaganda techniques
Bandwagon effect · Buzzword · Card stacking · Code word · Dog-whistle politics · Doublespeak · Framing · Glittering generality · Lesser of two evils principle · Loaded language · Newspeak · Public relations · Plain folks · Weasel word
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Collective perspective is powerful,, in any form...
DrJ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect"
Categories: Cognitive biases | Metaphors | Economics effects | Propaganda techniques | Crowd psychology
Has anyone ever realized they were caught up in something, a thinking,, an opinion developed before they understood all the facts?
We all have!! Christianity is a kind of spiritual politics,,, don't you think?
Understanding why it works might help,,,,,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The bandwagon effect, also known as social proof or "cromo effect" and closely related to opportunism, is the observation that people often do and believe things because many other people do and believe the same things. The effect is often pejoratively called herding instinct, particularly when applied to adolescents. People tend to follow the crowd without examining the merits of a particular thing. The bandwagon effect is the reason for the bandwagon fallacy's success.
The bandwagon effect is well-documented in behavioral psychology and has many applications. The general rule is that conduct or beliefs spread among people, as fads clearly do, with "the probability of any individual adopting it increasing with the proportion who have already done so." [1] As more people come to believe in something, others also hop on the bandwagon regardless of the underlying evidence.
Contents [hide]
1 Origin of the Phrase
2 Use in Politics
3 Use in Microeconomics
4 Use in the Music Industry
5 Use in Sports
6 Controversy
7 References
8 See also
[edit] Origin of the Phrase
Literally, a bandwagon is a wagon which carries the band in a parade, circus or other entertainment.[2] The phrase "jump on the bandwagon" was first used in American politics in 1848 because of Dan Rice, President Lincoln's court jester.[3] Dan Rice, a professional circus clown, used his bandwagon for Zachary Taylor's campaign appearances, to gain attention by using the music. As Taylor's campaign became more successful, more politicians strove for a seat on the bandwagon, hoping to be associated with the success. Later, during the time of William Jennings Bryan's 1900 presidential campaign, bandwagons had become standard in campaigns,[4] and 'jump on the bandwagon' was used as a derogatory term, implying that people were associating themselves with the success without considering what they associated themselves with.
[edit] Use in Politics
The bandwagon effect occurs in voting: some people vote for those candidates or parties who are likely to succeed (or are proclaimed as such by the media), hoping to be on the 'winner's side' in the end.[5] The bandwagon effect has been labeled to situations involving majority opinion, such as political outcomes, where people alter their opinions to the majority view (McAllister and Studlar 721).
Because of time zones, election results are broadcast in the eastern parts of the United States while polls are still open in the west. Due to this trend, behavior of voters in western United States has been previously investigated. In 1980, NBC News declared Ronald Reagan to be the winner of the presidential race on the basis of the exit polls several hours before the voting booths closed in the west.
Several studies have been done in order to test this theory of how the bandwagon effect and politics tie together. In 1994, a study by Robert K. Goidel and Todd G. Shields was published in The Journal of Politics. At the University of Kentucky, 180 students were randomly assigned to nine groups where they were asked questions about certain election scenarios. The scenarios presented to each group were identical, although about 70% of subjects received knowledge concerning the expected winner (Goidel and Shields 807). Independents, which are those who do not vote based on the endorsement of any party and are ultimately neutral, were extremely influenced and tended to lean towards the person expected to win (Goidel and Shields 807-808). Expectations played a significant role throughout the study. It was found that independents are twice as likely to vote for the Republican candidate when the Republican is expected to win. From the results, it was also found that when the Democrat was expected to win, independent Republicans and weak Republicans were more likely to vote for the Democratic candidate (Goidel and Shields 808).
A study by Albert Mehrabian, reported in The Journal of Applied Social Psychology (1998), tested the relative importance of the bandwagon (rally around the winner) effect versus the underdog (empathic support for those trailing) effect. Bogus poll results presented to voters prior to the 1996 Republican primary clearly showed the bandwagon effect to predominate on balance. Indeed, approximately 6% of the variance in the vote was explained in terms of the bogus polls, showing that poll results (whether accurate or inaccurate) can significantly influence election results in closely-contested elections. In particular, assuming that one candidate "is an initial favorite by a slim margin, reports of polls showing that candidate as the leader in the race will increase his or her favorable margin" (Mehrabian, 1998, p. 2128). Thus, as poll results are repeatedly reported, the bandwagon effect will tend to snowball and become a powerful aid to leading candidates.
During the 1992 U.S. presidential election, Vicki G. Morwitz and Carol Pluzinski conducted a study, which was published in The Journal of Consumer Research. At a large northeastern university, some of 214 volunteer business students were given the results of student and national polls indicating that Bill Clinton was in the lead. Others were not exposed to the results of the polls. Several students who had intended to vote for Bush changed their minds after seeing the poll results (Morwitz and Pluzinski 58-64).
Internationally, British polls have shown an increase to public exposure. Sixty-eight percent of voters had heard of the general election campaign results of the opinion poll in 1979. In 1987, this number of voters aware of the results increased to 74% (McAllister and Studlar 725). According to British studies, there is a consistent pattern of apparent bandwagon effects for the leading party.
[edit] Use in Microeconomics
In microeconomics, bandwagon effect describes interactions of demand and preference.[6] The bandwagon effect arises when people's preference for a commodity increases as the number of people buying it increases. This interaction potentially disturbs the normal results of the theory of supply and demand, which assumes that consumers make buying decisions solely based on price and their own personal preference. See network effect and Veblen good.
[edit] Use in the Music Industry
In music, bandwagon effect is a term for people who are fond of a musical group based on how popular the artist is at the time. For instance, certain people appreciate a song only once it is well-known.
[edit] Use in Sports
In sports, a 'bandwagoner' is a derogatory term for people who begin flocking to a team after they have achieved success. Fans of successful sporting teams who do not live in the traditional areas of their support are often accused of being 'bandwagon' fans or only show an interest in the team when they are performing well. Bandwagoner's are also often called glory-hunters or Fairweather fans.
[edit] Controversy
The bandwagon effects has been subject to some issues.
Despite anti-smoking campaigns, people often smoke cigarettes because they ignore them. Other issues that exist, is that they want to do it just to "fit in" hence the bandwagon effect. The bandwagon effect can have health issues and it can limit people's interest in music. People whose music interest is limited often rely on radio to entertain them despite the advent of MP3 players which would allow them to hear songs underplayed on the airwaves.
The bandwagon effect has also prevented potentially revolutionary sounds from experimental bands to hit the pop charts.
[edit] References
^ Andrew Colman, Oxford Dictionary of Psychology (Oxford: University, 2003) 77.
^ Bandwagon. Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ Dan Rice (1823-1901) — President Lincoln's Court Jester. Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ Bandwagon Effect. Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ New Evidence About the Existence of a Bandwagon Effect in the Opinion Formation Process. International Political Science Review, Vol. 14, No. 2, 203-213 (1993). Retrieved on 2007-03-09.
^ Harvey Leibenstein, “Bandwagon, Snob, and Veblen Effects in the Theory of Consumers’ Demand,” The Quarterly Journal of Economics (May 1950).
Goidel, Robert K., and Todd G. Shields. "The Vanishing Marginals, the Bandwagon, and the Mass Media." The Journal of Politics 56 (1994): 802-810. 11 Apr. 2007 .
McAllister, Ian, and Donley T. Studlar. "Bandwagon, Underdog, or Projection? Opinion Polls and Electoral Choice in Britain, 1979-1987." The Journal of Politics 53 (1991): 720-740. 9 Apr. 2007.
Mehrabian, Albert. "Effects of Poll Reports on Voter Preferences." Journal of Applied Social Psychology 28 (1998): 2119-2130. 11 Apr. 2007 .
Morwitz, Vicki G., and Carol Pluzinski. "Do Polls Reflect Opinions or Do Opinions Reflect Polls?" Journal of Consumer Research os 23 (1996): 53-65. 8 Apr. 2007.
[edit] See also
Bandwagon
Bandwagon fan
Bandwagoning
Collective behavior
Collective consciousness
Collective effervescence
Collective intelligence
Communal reinforcement
Conformism
Crowd psychology
Group behaviour
Herd behavior
Keeping up with the Joneses
List of cognitive biases
Me too
Meme
Network effect
Ochlocracy (commonly referred to as "mob rule")
Peer pressure
Sheeple
Social comparison theory
Spiral of silence
Veblen good
Fads and trends
Pop music
[hide]v • d • ePropaganda techniques
Bandwagon effect · Buzzword · Card stacking · Code word · Dog-whistle politics · Doublespeak · Framing · Glittering generality · Lesser of two evils principle · Loaded language · Newspeak · Public relations · Plain folks · Weasel word
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The Collective perspective is powerful,, in any form...
DrJ
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Categories: Cognitive biases | Metaphors | Economics effects | Propaganda techniques | Crowd psychology