D'ya Hafta be a Christian?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:01 am

Let's discuss one of the big questions of Christianity: If one has to accept Christ to go to Heaven, then what about people who never heard about Christ?

John 14, New International Version wrote:

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Here's my take: Jesus always spoke in parables, riddles, metaphor, etc etc. Maybe He didn't mean he, Jesus, was the way. I mean, you can't take it literally, can you? He wasn't talking about His digestive tract. So how figurative was His statement?

"I am the way and the truth and the life" he says. "Am" means "equals", which means we can replace the pronoun with the phrase. Thus:

No one comes to the Father (gets into Heaven, right?) except through the way and the truth and the life. If we really knew the way and the truth and the life, we would know the Father (or origin) of the way and the truth and the life. So, it is less a matter of accepting Christ specifically as Savior and being physically dipped or sprinkled with H2O, as it is figuring out what the way and the truth and the life is or means and trying to be that way.

If that's right, then it's possible that people can find the way and the truth and the life without ever having heard of Christ.

Sure, we're supposed to go out and tell the world ..... what? That Jesus lived and walked the earth? So what? Billions of people have done the same thing. That he suffered and died? Again, hundreds of millions if not billions can claim the same.

I think we're supposed to FIRST try and never stop trying to figure out the way and the truth and the life, (probably best by following Christ's example) THEN help others do the same.

Too many in history missed the first part and lost focus on what they were supposed to have been doing, and did tremendous harm instead.

Whatchatink?

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:14 am

I agree with some of what you both are saying. Jesus did change a lot of the rules. He gave the religious leaders of His day a hard time, that's why they were out to get Him. He associated with people that these men thought you should have nothing to do with.

I think too that you have to believe in the miracles to believe in the religion, the entire Christian religion is based on the fact of the resurrection. The resurrection is the means by which we are saved. If we believe Jesus is the Saviour them when we die our soul will be able to with Him.

As for those who don't know about Jesus, some of that responsibility falls on our heads if we don't tell then about Him. Go out into every corner of the world and tell others about me. Thats one of our main jobs as Christians.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:17 am

Hope6;782722 wrote: As for those who don't know about Jesus, some of that responsibility falls on our heads if we don't tell then about Him. Go out into every corner of the world and tell others about me. Thats one of our main jobs as Christians.
So you disagree with the heart of my post? Those of us who go to Heaven go guilty of allowing the billions uncontacted, not to mention the billions more misinformed, to go to Hell?? How can there be Heaven with such a weight?

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:25 am

Sorry I have to disagree too. You took one verse and came up with your post. But if you look at the bible as a whole, you know that Jesus was more than just a teacher, he was/is our savior. It was promised in the old testament he would come, and he did. :-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:34 am

Sheryl;782774 wrote: Sorry I have to disagree too. You took one verse and came up with your post. But if you look at the bible as a whole, you know that Jesus was more than just a teacher, he was/is our savior. It was promised in the old testament he would come, and he did. :-6
I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. I agree he's our savior; never said anything contrary.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:41 am

I am but one of millions of people on this earth. I am not worrying about whether I am going to heaven or hell after I die. I am just trying to live my live as a caring person and trying to do what's right.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:57 am

Accountable;782767 wrote: So you disagree with the heart of my post? Those of us who go to Heaven go guilty of allowing the billions uncontacted, not to mention the billions more misinformed, to go to Hell?? How can there be Heaven with such a weight?

I'll have to do some research on this one. I t's somewhere in the bible about what happens if you know someone that doesn't know about Jesus and you don't tell them, I'll see if I can find it.

None of us go to heaven guilty, we have to ask forgiveness for our sins or we don't go to heaven at all.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:09 am

Hope6;782875 wrote: None of us go to heaven guilty, we have to ask forgiveness for our sins or we don't go to heaven at all.
If I do my very best to save a life and fail, I feel guilty, despite the knowledge that I could not have done more.

To leave this life with the knowledge that I might've missed somebody .... not sure I could live eternity with that hanging on me.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:21 am

In the esoteric Qabalah, Christ "is" the center of Tiphareth. One must travel through Tiphareth, or the Christ center, to reach Kether, the point of emanation, thereby arriving at God which is unmanifest beyond the first point of Kether.

The comment accurately describes the process of enlightenment by ascension of the tree of life.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:37 am

koan;782917 wrote: In the esoteric Qabalah, Christ "is" the center of Tiphareth. One must travel through Tiphareth, or the Christ center, to reach Kether, the point of emanation, thereby arriving at God which is unmanifest beyond the first point of Kether.

The comment accurately describes the process of enlightenment by ascension of the tree of life.
In Qabalah, does one have to find a guide to first find Tiphareth, or can they find it on one's own, without ever knowing the name?

If the only way to Heaven is through Christ, and the only way to find Christ is to know his name, learned only through other Christians or the Christian Bible (authored by Christians), then the Christian has become the gatekeeper, not Christ, see what I mean?

There must be a way to find the way and the truth and the life, other than to know the name of Jesus; otherwise, billions were doomed without ever first being given a chance and we Christians were given an impossible edict.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:42 am

There are many paths to the same place.

The Qabalah is a technique of understanding "God" whilst still alive. It has less to do with required actions. Nothing is created and nothing disappears it only transforms from one form to another.

People can have experiences that others meditate to achieve, yet it happens spontaneously without effort. Achieving a level of the Qabalah does not mean that you will never go back down the ladder but it should mean that it takes less effort to return. It doesn't make any claims over the fate of those who do or do not travel it intentionally.

We would all end up returning to the unmanifest, and we would have to go through Christ/Tiphareth, but not doing it on purpose makes no difference to the result.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:51 am

Thanks Koan.

Can anybody tell me how Koan's description does not mesh with Jesus' teachings?

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:54 am

The wording of "except through me" prevents literal interpretation of the phrase. How in heck does one literally go through another person?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:07 am

koan;782961 wrote: The wording of "except through me" prevents literal interpretation of the phrase. How in heck does one literally go through another person?
Our modern interpretations have turned him into the bouncer, the doorman, the bookie, the bodyguard. We've replace His shining robe with a shiny suit, with pinstripes and an itialian shirt.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:15 am

Accountable;782889 wrote: If I do my very best to save a life and fail, I feel guilty, despite the knowledge that I could not have done more.

To leave this life with the knowledge that I might've missed somebody .... not sure I could live eternity with that hanging on me.

Once we get to heaven all our worries and pain will be gone. We won't have anything hanging on us for eternity, all our troubles will be taken away.

one definition of heaven is , a place or condition of utmost happiness. You don't have that if you're worrying about anything.

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:21 am

What about people who don't believe in heaven or hell? Like Jews and Buddhists?

Buddhists don't believe in any kind of dieties, but many believe in rebirth (not the same as reincarnation). They believe that after they die, they are reborn as either a higher or lower form of life as a result of karma.

So what would you rather do? Go to heaven or be reborn?

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:25 am

Buddhists also believe in Nirvana. Freedom from rebirth. That is why they bother to meditate.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:28 am

Hope6;782981 wrote: Once we get to heaven all our worries and pain will be gone. We won't have anything hanging on us for eternity, all our troubles will be taken away.

one definition of heaven is , a place or condition of utmost happiness. You don't have that if you're worrying about anything.
This post, the exclusiveness of Jesus being the only Way, and free will cannot stand together.

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:25 pm

I'm just going to answer your question... YES DARN IT! I tell you what... being a Christian is the only way to live. Yes sir lemme tell ya.

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:48 pm

koan;782994 wrote: Buddhists also believe in Nirvana. Freedom from rebirth. That is why they bother to meditate.

From the Theravada perspective, Nirvana is the extinction of the fires of attachment, hatred, and delusion that cause suffering, which is something that can be achieved in our lifetime. Meditation is part of the path to eliminate suffering.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:33 pm

But here's something else too, God also promises to hear the one child that cries out for him. So if in deep dark where ever, if a person who looks into his conscience and understand that God is real, sees his creation and steps out on faith and for a moment ackowledges in his limited understanding that there is obviously a creator, then God will reveal himself to that person, in his spirit, and that person will be able alone without any man to understand the concepts of God, for salvation.

Now, that fits.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:41 pm

Accountable;783253 wrote: Now, that fits.

yes, that's exactly right, you can obtain salvation in the blink of an eye. when you get all this other stuff out of the way it comes down to what's between you and God.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:25 pm

Accountable;782786 wrote: I don't understand what you're disagreeing with. I agree he's our savior; never said anything contrary.

Sorry I misread your post. I understand after reading the rest of the thread what you were getting at. And I think Jester said it best.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:58 pm

Sheryl;783293 wrote: Sorry I misread your post. I understand after reading the rest of the thread what you were getting at. And I think Jester said it best.
Thanks, WT!

Post by **jones jones** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:16 am

took this off another internet forum .... interesting theory ...

Let's say Adolf Hitler genuinely accepted Jesus Christ as his lord and saviour and honestly asked for forgiveness right before he put a bullet in his head in the Berlin Bunker in April 1945.

Does everyone agree Hitler goes straight to heaven?

This even though he murdered 6 million innocent jewish men women and children?

How about a beautiful innocent 3 year old girl from a rural Buddhist Chinese family that dies of dengue fever without ever hearing of any judeo-christian message.

Does everyone agree she goes straight to hell?

any thoughts?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:16 am

IMO exclusivism is exactly the opposite message that Jesus would have wanted his followers to walk away with.

In the context of that time, Judaism is more an action-based religion than belief-based. Jesus was a little unique though in that he saw thoughts as a kind of action.

So, assuming this verse was not made up by a later writer:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Here's how I'm reading this:

"Look at my example in how I live my life. No one becomes a better person except to do the things which I've tried to show you. If you really knew me, you would know God in me, from my actions. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:11 pm

jones jones;783554 wrote: took this off another internet forum .... interesting theory ...

Let's say Adolf Hitler genuinely accepted Jesus Christ as his lord and saviour and honestly asked for forgiveness right before he put a bullet in his head in the Berlin Bunker in April 1945.

Does everyone agree Hitler goes straight to heaven?

This even though he murdered 6 million innocent jewish men women and children?Yes

jones jones wrote: How about a beautiful innocent 3 year old girl from a rural Buddhist Chinese family that dies of dengue fever without ever hearing of any judeo-christian message.

Does everyone agree she goes straight to hell?No. Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

And after the discussion in this thread, I would go so far as to say that had the little girl grown into a woman, wife, and mother and still never heard of Christ, but came to the right Truth by other spiritual means, she would go to Heaven.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:31 pm

jones jones;783554 wrote: took this off another internet forum .... interesting theory ...

Let's say Adolf Hitler genuinely accepted Jesus Christ as his lord and saviour and honestly asked for forgiveness right before he put a bullet in his head in the Berlin Bunker in April 1945.

Does everyone agree Hitler goes straight to heaven?

This even though he murdered 6 million innocent jewish men women and children?

How about a beautiful innocent 3 year old girl from a rural Buddhist Chinese family that dies of dengue fever without ever hearing of any judeo-christian message.

Does everyone agree she goes straight to hell?

any thoughts?

Hitler would not go the heaven because he committed the sin of self murder and you can't get forgivness for something if you are already dead.

A three year old child would not go to hell because they haven't reached the age of responsibility when you are accountable for your own sins.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:21 am

Good point. If the acceptance was sincere he wouldn't commit suicide, but he would've been forgiven for the genocide, as I understand the procedures and bylaws of the committee to blah blah blah blah. :yh_glasse

which is why I keep getting the feeling that life here is just a small learning experience of small consequence in a vastly larger framework we're incapable of understanding yet. God's kindergarten, perhaps.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:41 pm

There is a very short answer to the op. That is "no".

Shalom

Ted:-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:56 pm

Ted;785138 wrote: There is a very short answer to the op. That is "no".

Shalom

Ted:-6
Aw come on, Ted! I've been waiting all this time for you to weigh in. Surely you have more.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:52 pm

Acc:-6

What part of "no" don't you understand? LOL. I couldn't resist. Temptation you know.

A little more. OK. The word way is used throughout the Bible to mean a path or a route. The earliest Christians were called "The people of the way." Jesus is the way in that he has shown us by his life and teachings the path we are to follow. The path is one of justice, kindness and walking humbly with our God.

Now to the sentence "I am the way the truth and the life. . ." This is not a phrase that can be traced back to the historical Jesus. What it is in fact words that the writer of the Gospel of John put into the mouth of Jesus. It is what the early church had come to believe about Jesus of Nazareth by the time of writing. In other words it is the the word of the early church and not Jesus.

Shalom

Ted:-6