rjwould:-6
If all I am is atoms, chemical reactions and electrical impulses then at death all of those atoms will survive. So what is there to non-existence. My whole body will continue to survive in one form or another so why should it care whether or not it ceases to function as a body? Where does this caring come from?
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Ted;792401 wrote: Love, hatred, bigotry etc. do exist but one cannot prove love in a lab or with any kind of objective proof. These are subjective experiences that can and do show up in one's behaviour but they cannot be proven scientifically. This does not mean they don't exist.
IMO theists are usually the ones trying to turn God into a scientific object, not scientists.
I only critique the idea (as a scientific theory) when it trespasses into the domain of science (as I perceive it).
Also, I'm more than happy to see God on the same level as mind-dependent phenomena like love, hatred, and bigotry. I also agree that psychological entities produce real-world effects.
Although intuitively, I think it's clear these things cease to exist if and when humans do. That is the issue with respect to God's existence.
IMO theists are usually the ones trying to turn God into a scientific object, not scientists.
I only critique the idea (as a scientific theory) when it trespasses into the domain of science (as I perceive it).Also, I'm more than happy to see God on the same level as mind-dependent phenomena like love, hatred, and bigotry. I also agree that psychological entities produce real-world effects.
Although intuitively, I think it's clear these things cease to exist if and when humans do. That is the issue with respect to God's existence.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould:-6
Does love end at death? I think it is unprovable in the same way that God or No God is unprovable. It is the same with caring.
My whole point is that scientists admit they simply do not understand. They may some day or they may simply engage more difficult problems. God like our other experiences is a subjective experience. It cannot be otherwise.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does love end at death? I think it is unprovable in the same way that God or No God is unprovable. It is the same with caring.
My whole point is that scientists admit they simply do not understand. They may some day or they may simply engage more difficult problems. God like our other experiences is a subjective experience. It cannot be otherwise.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Jester;792413 wrote: You said this:
I said this:
If all our thought is chemical/electro in nature, either electro or chemical stimulation of the brain can make us think differently. Im saying I think we tried that in the 50-70's and it did not work to control behavior, it ruined poeple. The chemical changes we see with pharmaceuticals today make zombies out of folks.
Its not just neuro/chemical alone, you call it intuition, if its just neuro/chemical that has nothing to do with intuition.
And what studies show MRI's being sophisticated enough to detect nuero thought patterns?
:yh_rotfl I think you gave RJ a fright there. It works both ways, I find religious fundamentalists tend to assume you know little about religion and atheists assume fundamentalists know little about science and all it takes is a little more information to convert the other.
The thing is you can go round and round the arguments but it always comes back to an individual subjective choice.
I said this:
If all our thought is chemical/electro in nature, either electro or chemical stimulation of the brain can make us think differently. Im saying I think we tried that in the 50-70's and it did not work to control behavior, it ruined poeple. The chemical changes we see with pharmaceuticals today make zombies out of folks.
Its not just neuro/chemical alone, you call it intuition, if its just neuro/chemical that has nothing to do with intuition.
And what studies show MRI's being sophisticated enough to detect nuero thought patterns?
:yh_rotfl I think you gave RJ a fright there. It works both ways, I find religious fundamentalists tend to assume you know little about religion and atheists assume fundamentalists know little about science and all it takes is a little more information to convert the other.
The thing is you can go round and round the arguments but it always comes back to an individual subjective choice.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
On the issue of drugs, the drugs that people take for mental illness are often designed to take a person down a notch, in intensity.
Give them psychedelics on the other hand, and they will have religious experiences or visions. Like Moses.
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL04178076.html
Give them psychedelics on the other hand, and they will have religious experiences or visions. Like Moses.
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL04178076.html
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
yaaarrrgg;792695 wrote: On the issue of drugs, the drugs that people take for mental illness are often designed to take a person down a notch, in intensity.
Given them psychedelics on the other hand, and they will have religious experiences or visions. Like Moses.
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL04178076.html
:eek:I've been calling religion irrational but I'm not so sure implying it's a drug induced hallucination helps the discussion you wicked person
Don't watch if you have had a humour by pass. He's an irish catholic comedian.
Given them psychedelics on the other hand, and they will have religious experiences or visions. Like Moses.
http://africa.reuters.com/odd/news/usnL04178076.html
:eek:I've been calling religion irrational but I'm not so sure implying it's a drug induced hallucination helps the discussion you wicked person
Don't watch if you have had a humour by pass. He's an irish catholic comedian.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;793027 wrote: "so, what do you guy's think about all these people who claim to have seen Jesus lately?",
That maybe you weren't the only one doing LSD.:wah:
That maybe you weren't the only one doing LSD.:wah:
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;793027 wrote: I knew there was something that attracted me to religion...It reminds me of a story..
When I was a teenager, I took an awful lot of LSD at one point, and each high became more frightening than the last, but I kept taking it anyway. One night while crashing from LSD alone in my room, I had this idea that it was time to end my life. I sat on the floor scared as hell calling out for help, then suddenly, against the backdrop of the black painted walls of my bedroom, i thought I saw the name Jesus in brightly colored letters, like a rainbow. That settled me down and allowed me to get through the rest of the evening.
A few nights later as some friends and I were walking along the street (about 7 of us), a car stopped next to us, the driver rolled down his window, looked me square in the eye and said, "so, what do you guy's think about all these people who claim to have seen Jesus lately?", rolled up his window and drove off.
Jester should have fun with that one!!Or perhaps even Ted..
Kind of begs the question if each one became more frightening than the last why do it?
Never took drugs myself although I knew plenty who did including one who flew out a seventh floor window-at least he flew for a little bit, about the stupidest ways to die I can think of. I've been with people tripping it was enough to put me off even had I been so inclined.
When I was a teenager, I took an awful lot of LSD at one point, and each high became more frightening than the last, but I kept taking it anyway. One night while crashing from LSD alone in my room, I had this idea that it was time to end my life. I sat on the floor scared as hell calling out for help, then suddenly, against the backdrop of the black painted walls of my bedroom, i thought I saw the name Jesus in brightly colored letters, like a rainbow. That settled me down and allowed me to get through the rest of the evening.
A few nights later as some friends and I were walking along the street (about 7 of us), a car stopped next to us, the driver rolled down his window, looked me square in the eye and said, "so, what do you guy's think about all these people who claim to have seen Jesus lately?", rolled up his window and drove off.
Jester should have fun with that one!!Or perhaps even Ted..
Kind of begs the question if each one became more frightening than the last why do it?
Never took drugs myself although I knew plenty who did including one who flew out a seventh floor window-at least he flew for a little bit, about the stupidest ways to die I can think of. I've been with people tripping it was enough to put me off even had I been so inclined.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
jester:-6
You've got that right.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You've got that right.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
The subjective experience of love is indeed very real. That reality cannot be denied. One could consider the same concerning the experience of the divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
fuzzy butt:-6
You seem to have a problem. I'm sorry about that.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You seem to have a problem. I'm sorry about that.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
fuzzy butt:-6
Indeed you do have a problem. I am receiving hostility from you and have never given you any. If that is what you are like all I can do is wish you luck.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Indeed you do have a problem. I am receiving hostility from you and have never given you any. If that is what you are like all I can do is wish you luck.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
jester:-6
Thanks.
No I shall not worry about it. I had grade 5 students who knew how to be polite and respectful and still disagree. It does speak volumes about the poster though. For that I feel sorry.
Shalom
Ted
Thanks.
No I shall not worry about it. I had grade 5 students who knew how to be polite and respectful and still disagree. It does speak volumes about the poster though. For that I feel sorry.
Shalom
Ted
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould
Probably has something to do with my personality
No comment on the grounds that I can't think of anything funny enough.
I think the last few threads show if you want to have a civil conversation about religios beliefs keep away from the religious :sneaky: Feel the love and hug yourselves.:-4
Actually Judaism is inherently misogynistic so islam and Christianity is as well. Paul definitely disliked women but maybe he was gay which may explain it.
Do puppies have souls? Do women have souls? If you laugh at a religious joke are you doomed (dave allen was apparently excommunicated for poking fun at the church, not sure about father ted). Maybe the devil was cast out for not laughing at one of god's jokes.
Actually most of the women I know are quite capable of having misogynists hiding under the table in abject terror which may be the real explanation of the opposition to female priests although why women accept it is a puzzle.
Did you know all the people of scotland were excommunicated?
http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_arbroath.htm
The Pope had excommunicated Robert the Bruce, not unreasonably, following Bruce's murder of a rival to the throne on the altar steps of a Franciscan priory. But prompted by the English king, the Pope also excommunicated all the people of Scotland.
posted by jester
The latest few posts brings up another question for me, and its a religious one of course, set aside the enrgy and molecular transferance, why is it we must die?
Surely if man is the the 'man' he can stop that from happening.
That seems to be one absolute that no one can get around. Its certainly not subjective, and its certainly observable.
I thought that being a Christian you believed people pass on to a better place where all will become clear god moving in mysterious ways and all that, and the devil takes his own. Is it a misapprehension on my part or are you beginning to question what you believe?
While death is observable what happens after is not.
Probably has something to do with my personality
No comment on the grounds that I can't think of anything funny enough.
I think the last few threads show if you want to have a civil conversation about religios beliefs keep away from the religious :sneaky: Feel the love and hug yourselves.:-4
Actually Judaism is inherently misogynistic so islam and Christianity is as well. Paul definitely disliked women but maybe he was gay which may explain it.
Do puppies have souls? Do women have souls? If you laugh at a religious joke are you doomed (dave allen was apparently excommunicated for poking fun at the church, not sure about father ted). Maybe the devil was cast out for not laughing at one of god's jokes.
Actually most of the women I know are quite capable of having misogynists hiding under the table in abject terror which may be the real explanation of the opposition to female priests although why women accept it is a puzzle.
Did you know all the people of scotland were excommunicated?
http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_arbroath.htm
The Pope had excommunicated Robert the Bruce, not unreasonably, following Bruce's murder of a rival to the throne on the altar steps of a Franciscan priory. But prompted by the English king, the Pope also excommunicated all the people of Scotland.
posted by jester
The latest few posts brings up another question for me, and its a religious one of course, set aside the enrgy and molecular transferance, why is it we must die?
Surely if man is the the 'man' he can stop that from happening.
That seems to be one absolute that no one can get around. Its certainly not subjective, and its certainly observable.
I thought that being a Christian you believed people pass on to a better place where all will become clear god moving in mysterious ways and all that, and the devil takes his own. Is it a misapprehension on my part or are you beginning to question what you believe?
While death is observable what happens after is not.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
No Sir! No question here but I must admit I do some questioning all the time, which I think is healthy!
I was refering only to physical death, I do know that the soul lives on.
Why do you belive you have a soul? what is it and where does it live on?
Question i always ask atheists is if they really believe there is nothing then what is the purpose of life
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Question i always ask atheists is if they really believe there is nothing then what is the purpose of life
The purpose of life is to live.
The purpose of life is to live.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;795387 wrote: I'm getting the feeling that if it's not the answer gmc is looking for, it's not valid. He scoffed at my "the meaning of life is to give life meaning'...So, I'm confused, but maybe thats from all those drugs I'd taken in my youth...
That's a good answer IMO. I think the question should really be "What is the meaning of [my] life?" That can only be answered (or created) by the individual asking the question.
That's a good answer IMO. I think the question should really be "What is the meaning of [my] life?" That can only be answered (or created) by the individual asking the question.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
fuzzy butt:-6
You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.
Anyway have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.
Anyway have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;795387 wrote: I'm getting the feeling that if it's not the answer gmc is looking for, it's not valid. He scoffed at my "the meaning of life is to give life meaning'...So, I'm confused, but maybe thats from all those drugs I'd taken in my youth...
Actually I wasn't scoffing. Maybe it's that transatlantic humour gap again or the allusion was unfamiliar.
http://video.movies.go.com/hitchhikersg ... stStreet=1&
Do press continue. If you can find the radio version I think it's better than the film
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchh ... the_Galaxy
I shall refrain from any references to vogon destructor ships destroying the forum or brains the size of planet and all they do is word games.
posted by yaaarrrgg
That's a good answer IMO. I think the question should really be "What is the meaning of [my] life?" That can only be answered (or created) by the individual asking the question.
Why do you think that?
posted by jester
I know I have a soul because I can identify that I am.
I know my soul lives on because biblical imperitives that I have belived and obeyed has been rewarded with great blessings, and the times I have chosen not to belive and follow the biblical imperatives there have been negative consequences that are predictable based on the warnings of scripture. Since those have been born out as truth, so is the rest of the promises in scripture.
Take away the biblical imperatives and what are you left with?
Actually I don't see how you could answer that. I don't believe the bible is the word of god which makes anything based on literal belief nonsense to me. On the other hand I always think that the virulent hostility of fundamentalist religious groups to anything that seems to question the veracity of the bible is due in large part that without that belief, for many there would be nothing.
posted by lon
The purpose of life is to live. No it's forty two. still one of the best answers. or maybe the question is wrong.:sneaky:
Actually I wasn't scoffing. Maybe it's that transatlantic humour gap again or the allusion was unfamiliar.
http://video.movies.go.com/hitchhikersg ... stStreet=1&
Do press continue. If you can find the radio version I think it's better than the film
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchh ... the_Galaxy
I shall refrain from any references to vogon destructor ships destroying the forum or brains the size of planet and all they do is word games.
posted by yaaarrrgg
That's a good answer IMO. I think the question should really be "What is the meaning of [my] life?" That can only be answered (or created) by the individual asking the question.
Why do you think that?
posted by jester
I know I have a soul because I can identify that I am.
I know my soul lives on because biblical imperitives that I have belived and obeyed has been rewarded with great blessings, and the times I have chosen not to belive and follow the biblical imperatives there have been negative consequences that are predictable based on the warnings of scripture. Since those have been born out as truth, so is the rest of the promises in scripture.
Take away the biblical imperatives and what are you left with?
Actually I don't see how you could answer that. I don't believe the bible is the word of god which makes anything based on literal belief nonsense to me. On the other hand I always think that the virulent hostility of fundamentalist religious groups to anything that seems to question the veracity of the bible is due in large part that without that belief, for many there would be nothing.
posted by lon
The purpose of life is to live. No it's forty two. still one of the best answers. or maybe the question is wrong.:sneaky:
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
gmc;795552 wrote:
Why do you think that?
To the degree that someone else defines your purpose or meaning of your life, one's life is actually less meaningful or purposeful. A slave, for example, probably has the "purpose" of his life largely determined for him. If God is the source of purpose (telling us what to think and do) we are little more than meat puppets for him... hardly a meaningful existence IMO.
The view that we must give our own life meaning holds even if God exists, as one must decide first and foremost to follow a particular religion, before that religion can bring anything positive to one's life. It's still a choice of the individual which paths to take. Assuming God exists and he defines our purpose for us, why would he create people and not simple robots? We wouldn't need free will.
Why do you think that?
To the degree that someone else defines your purpose or meaning of your life, one's life is actually less meaningful or purposeful. A slave, for example, probably has the "purpose" of his life largely determined for him. If God is the source of purpose (telling us what to think and do) we are little more than meat puppets for him... hardly a meaningful existence IMO.
The view that we must give our own life meaning holds even if God exists, as one must decide first and foremost to follow a particular religion, before that religion can bring anything positive to one's life. It's still a choice of the individual which paths to take. Assuming God exists and he defines our purpose for us, why would he create people and not simple robots? We wouldn't need free will.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Jester;793817 wrote: The latest few posts brings up another question for me, and its a religious one of course, set aside the enrgy and molecular transferance, why is it we must die?
Surely if man is the the 'man' he can stop that from happening.
That seems to be one absolute that no one can get around. Its certainly not subjective, and its certainly observable.
Ignoring the science the best philosophical/religious answer IMO comes from Buddhism.
First Buddhism rejects the idea that there are different substances, such as water, you and me, and sees the Universe as a single, complex process that's constantly changing.
We can assign labels to things like saying "that is an apple" "this is a tree" "the tree is alive" ... but in reality the world (meaning the entire process) is in a constant state of flux ... constantly changing from one state to another.
So naturally, any label we assign a thing ... sooner or later the reality underneath that label will shift and slip out from beneath the label.... and becomes something "else" It's inevitable that things we like will therefore change. What's happening isn't that life is something that uniquely ends, but that it's one of many (impermanent) processes that we often become deeply attached to.
I'm not Buddhist myself, but I think the views are interesting. It's a unique religious perspective, in that several branches are atheistic ... or have no real concept of God.
Surely if man is the the 'man' he can stop that from happening.
That seems to be one absolute that no one can get around. Its certainly not subjective, and its certainly observable.
Ignoring the science the best philosophical/religious answer IMO comes from Buddhism.
First Buddhism rejects the idea that there are different substances, such as water, you and me, and sees the Universe as a single, complex process that's constantly changing.
We can assign labels to things like saying "that is an apple" "this is a tree" "the tree is alive" ... but in reality the world (meaning the entire process) is in a constant state of flux ... constantly changing from one state to another.
So naturally, any label we assign a thing ... sooner or later the reality underneath that label will shift and slip out from beneath the label.... and becomes something "else" It's inevitable that things we like will therefore change. What's happening isn't that life is something that uniquely ends, but that it's one of many (impermanent) processes that we often become deeply attached to.
I'm not Buddhist myself, but I think the views are interesting. It's a unique religious perspective, in that several branches are atheistic ... or have no real concept of God.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. A series of books. Computer given the task of finding the meaning of life eventually comes back with the answer 42. Unfortunately no one knew how the computer phrased its inquiry so they couldn't interpret the answer.
I was going to multiquote to catch up with the thread but it just looked far too boringly long of a post so I'll just throw in what I can remember from the last hundred posts.
The only way to avoid having a belief system is to not observe or interact with the world. Everything is up for debate. Some people believe God does not exist, some people believe the chair you sit on does not really exist. This was the point I tried to make earlier in the thread that got a little lost in translation. Interesting that Buddhism came up as I was thinking that the closest thing to eliminating a belief system entirely is to meditate with the goal of ending thought.
I was going to multiquote to catch up with the thread but it just looked far too boringly long of a post so I'll just throw in what I can remember from the last hundred posts.
The only way to avoid having a belief system is to not observe or interact with the world. Everything is up for debate. Some people believe God does not exist, some people believe the chair you sit on does not really exist. This was the point I tried to make earlier in the thread that got a little lost in translation. Interesting that Buddhism came up as I was thinking that the closest thing to eliminating a belief system entirely is to meditate with the goal of ending thought.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
An interesting aspect of this discussion, imo, is Mind vs Brain. I'd be interested in any links to scientists conclusively explaining where mind originates from. A person who loses parts of his/her body does not cease to be the same person. Our thoughts are immaterial yet they exist.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;796033 wrote: I'm not getting the forty two thing...anyone care to explain?
It's a cult british sci fi book, originally a radio play then a tV series recently made in to a film. became a world wide phenomenon. Contains lots of peculiarly british cultural references. The guide itself has the words "Don't panic" on the cover.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchh ... the_Galaxy
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/ ... rch=Search
Kind of hard to explain in a way that doesn't sound ridiculous and the humour is perhaps best described as pythonesque and very british. Lots of cultural in jokes that foreigners tend to miss. If you don't get red dwarf either you are going to struggle. It's one of those cult things that you either get or think a load ofrubbish.
Essentially the earth was part of a super computer build by a race of pan dimensional super beings on order to work out the answer to life, the universe and everything. but was unfortunately destroyed by a vogon destructor ship to make way for a hyperspace bypass shortly before it had finished working out the answer properly.
When the computer is asked to provide the answer it comes out with the answer 42. The suggestion is perhaps the question wasn't phrased properly.
Lots of interesting characters like marvin the depressed super robot-here I am a brain the size of a planet and all I do is open and close this door.-Babel fish, put in your ear and everything is translated for you, now entered the internet lexicon.
Couldn't find any links to let you listen to it. hope that helps, like I said you need to have read or heard it to get the joke.
posted by jester
I dont mind some one questioning God, I dont mind soemone arguing thier point about how they feel about God, what I mind is when a small majority try to dictate to me how I must believe and how I must raise my kids because of thier non belief.
There i would agree with tyou 100% except to me it always seems to be the unco good causing all the problems.
posted by jester
If there were no bible there would still be communication for the Spirit of God to the spirit of man.
Would you then accept that other religions communicate in ways that are just as valid as Christianity? Don't think it applies top you but there are many who believe thirs is he only true path.
It's a cult british sci fi book, originally a radio play then a tV series recently made in to a film. became a world wide phenomenon. Contains lots of peculiarly british cultural references. The guide itself has the words "Don't panic" on the cover.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchh ... the_Galaxy
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/ ... rch=Search
Kind of hard to explain in a way that doesn't sound ridiculous and the humour is perhaps best described as pythonesque and very british. Lots of cultural in jokes that foreigners tend to miss. If you don't get red dwarf either you are going to struggle. It's one of those cult things that you either get or think a load ofrubbish.
Essentially the earth was part of a super computer build by a race of pan dimensional super beings on order to work out the answer to life, the universe and everything. but was unfortunately destroyed by a vogon destructor ship to make way for a hyperspace bypass shortly before it had finished working out the answer properly.
When the computer is asked to provide the answer it comes out with the answer 42. The suggestion is perhaps the question wasn't phrased properly.
Lots of interesting characters like marvin the depressed super robot-here I am a brain the size of a planet and all I do is open and close this door.-Babel fish, put in your ear and everything is translated for you, now entered the internet lexicon.
Couldn't find any links to let you listen to it. hope that helps, like I said you need to have read or heard it to get the joke.
posted by jester
I dont mind some one questioning God, I dont mind soemone arguing thier point about how they feel about God, what I mind is when a small majority try to dictate to me how I must believe and how I must raise my kids because of thier non belief.
There i would agree with tyou 100% except to me it always seems to be the unco good causing all the problems.
posted by jester
If there were no bible there would still be communication for the Spirit of God to the spirit of man.
Would you then accept that other religions communicate in ways that are just as valid as Christianity? Don't think it applies top you but there are many who believe thirs is he only true path.