It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Discuss the Christian Faith.
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Hope6
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by Hope6 »

fuzzy butt;782318 wrote: umm hope, I appreciate your faith in God and the saviour but that question was poised to me at the age of six. It makes sense to a six year old but not everyone has the brain of a six year and would fall for that logic.

I'm a Christian and i'm not going to heaven nor hell (well hell being shoel, " the common grave of man" I will be going there but believe in the ressurrection) If I was to show up in Heaven I would be pleasantly surprised but it's not on the agenda for me, and I'm happy about that.


To Abbey sorry for the misunderstanding but this is the post I was responding to.
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Post by abbey »

Hope6;784978 wrote: To Abbey sorry for the misunderstanding but this is the post I was responding to.
That's cool Hope. :-6
gmc
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Post by gmc »

Jester;784915 wrote: I like it GM,

But I dont consider you correct in the historical setting, all those things came after the concept of chrsitianity, since christianity is a continueum of judiasm. Liberty, democracy, republic, liberal democracy, individual rule of law, come out of judiasm and have been further defined by the living out of basci biblical christianity.

The predominate view of our society is that no one denomination or sect of religion should control government, it isnt the seperation of church and state as some suggest.

I swear my alliegence to my country and serve me fellow countrymen and the traditions of my people, but I hold my citizenship in heaven and have a moral obligation to obey God over man. My countires symbols are traditional and not religious. My flag and the icons we see remind of us solidarity and history, they are not gods, nor do they represent any.

Our symbols have been chosen not for pagan emblems but because the majesty of the emblems denote freedom. (The Eagle, for instance)


The words are all greek and latin in origin as are the concepts and have bugger all to do with judaism and even less to do with christianity. You don't need monotheism to come up with these ideas. The notion that no man should be above the law pre-dates Christianity by several centuries. If you really believe that concepts of freedom, liberty, justice compassion and mercy did not exist without judaism or Christianity you need to do some serious study. Most people in this world do not follow weird meddle eastern religions.

That is the kind of sophistry out about by religious fundamentalists to try and counteract the simple fact that religion and individual freedom do not go hand in hand. It took years of conflict and millions of people killed to break the power of the church.

To the pagans, the eagle was an emblem of Jupiter, the god of the sky. It's been used as a symbol for centuries by one culture or another. I'm not suggesting you worship the american eagle as a symbol of anything but rather pointing out you have a kinship with people from the past, they would have understood the sentiments you feel as you look at the flag hand on heart.

If the eagle represents freedom to an american there is a certain amount of irony in the fact that you almost made it extinct. Symbol of freedom let's shoot it.

The debate over the bill of rights/ god's will etc is a peculiarly american one. We had our religious wars, the effects linger on but it's no accident European countries tend to be more or less secular in disposition. perhaps it's god's will that we be so:sneaky:. Personally I think those that believe they know god's will and want everybody to fall into line should be ignored completely or when appropriate have things thrown at them till they take the hint.

It seems to me that if it was so easy to deny God nobody would give one whit over argueing about it as well. If I dont believe something I dont believe it, typically I dont spend hours trying to prove I dont believe it. (although I must admit arguing/discussing this stuff with most of you is both challenging and informative.


It's not so much that it's not easy to deny god it's more that the religious won't leave it alone and keep trying to impose their belief system on people. as in your current debate in the US about the one nation under god etc etc.

You can't deny god if you are an atheist since he doesn't exist in the first place

I don't spend hours trying to prove anything either and normally I avoid the religious discussions, since people quoting bible passages as if they were some kind of truth is not much of an argument imo. On the other hand I do enjoy discussing this stuff so long as it's not with someone that takes it personally because you don't share their belief system.

may your imaginary friend go with you:yh_peace
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Post by Ted »

I have to go along with gmc on the positive factors of liberty etc. Karen Armstrong has shown quite well that these factors existed in China 4500 years before Jesus. The Jews did not exist as a people at that time. There was no direct contact between the far east and the middle east at that time. "The Great Transformation", Karen Armstrong.

We can bitch and complain about the minority all we like. The fact is that Christians are called to serve and respect all people not just Christians.

Shalom

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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by Hope6 »

wow I had no idea when I started this thread that there would be this much interest, 187 replies already! I guess we can all agree to disagree:) Anyway, I'm going to leave this thread for a while, I'm going to find some lighter subjects and some fun stuff to do. I will check back in on you all in a few days.

I love you all and God loves you too, even if you don't believe in Him.:-4

If anybody needs anything I'll be here to help you.:-6
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Post by Ted »

jester:-6

If she is wrong then the historical record is wrong, which I doubt. I could certainly go along with your comment that justice comes from God. However, I don't believe that God is concerned about the name they give Him/Her.

Shalom

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Post by gmc »

Jester;785176 wrote: See now that depends on which truth you view, yours or mine.

In my view God created everybody and revealed to them all that He is God, so the Chinese knew of God same as the Jews did, remember God created everyone before he chose out the jews as a nation to whom he would show himself strong before all men.

Therefore all justice comes from God.

You put a lot of stock in Ms. Armstrong but she's wrong.


It is your belief that all justice comes from god. It is one I wholeheartedly disagree with.

The problem with religious fundamentalist-of any kind, is that the next stage is usually I am going to tell you what god's law is and you will obey or else.

On the face of it you choose to ignore the historical record because it doesn't fit in with your belief system. (or, rather, not you specifically but many christians clearly do, I would prefer to keep this impersonal)

Just as many ignore the theory of evolution because it doesn't fit in with what they want to believe. A theory is an explanation based on the facts available, if new facts emerge then the theory can change. It is not an alternative belief system. I know scientists that believe in creationism but at least they concede they have no evidence for what they believe. The adam and eve story is no more than a myth yet because some believe it to be the truth and it's religion we are all supposed to take it seriously and not poke fun at it. You don't see secularists campaigning to have religion banned (OK I don't know about the states maybe they do there) they just want to ensure that children from religious families are given a chance to find out there are other world views.

posted by jester

Oh contrare, denying something does not mean it does not exist, it means you refuse to recognize it, there is a difference.


Believing in something does not mean that it exists- it means you refuse to believe that it isn't there.
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Post by gmc »

It comes down to a single choice, trust in God or trust in self.


There is a third way. Put your faith in the cosmic comedian-life's a joke we just don't get the punch line. :sneaky:
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Post by Ted »

A few comments on the rise of fundamentalism; "There is a growing intolerance of inadequate images of the Absolute. This is a healthy iconoclasm, since the idea of God has been used in the past to disastrous effect. One of the most characteristic new developments since the 1970's has been the rise of a type of religiosity that we usually call 'fundamentalism' in most of the major world religions, including the three religions of God. A highly political spirituality, it is literal and intolerant in its vision. In the United States, which has always been prone to extremist and apocalyptic enthusiasm, Christian fundamentalism has attached itself to the New Right." pg 390, "A History of Christianity", K. Armstrong.

"Yet, as we saw in the last chapter, this type of religiosity is actually a retreat from God. To make such human, historical phenomena as Christian 'Family Values,' 'Islam' or 'the Holy Land' the focus of religious devotion is a new form of idolatry." Ibid, 391.

This form of extremism is very dangerous. It has led in the past to all kinds of atrocities carried out in the name of God. It is detrimental to the individual as well as the state. In the individual it gives rise to a very unhealthy self image as well as an unhealthy view of others. In the state it leads to harassment of others, the shooting of abortion doctors and ultimately internal and external terrorism. These are some of the reasons I left the fundamentalist fold. It most certainly does not represent the God we see manifest in Jesus of Nazareth.

It is also interesting that Ms. Armstrong points out that Judaism began as the pagan cult of YHWH. YHWH moved from being a tribal God to the God of all Christians and fundamentalism is trying to return it to a tribal faith once more.

Knowing the history as I do I can agree with K. Armstrong on these points.

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

jester's comment that scientific theory shows the extent to which the world is in delusion and denial when it comes to God is itself a statement of delusion and denial. I actually don't have a problem with that as long as it does not become part of the school curriculum beyond a course in comparative religion. It does not belong in a science class.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by Ted »

rjwould:-6

I have no problem when they make use of the internet but their reaction when they are challenged is reprehensible. I left one so called "Christian" forum before they banned me ,LOL, claiming I was pro-homosexual when in fact I am pro people. One's sexual orientation is none of my business but I do make the welfare of all folks my concern. Their attitude was far from being Christian. It was in the nature of my post above.

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

rjwould:-6

We would have been out together. LOL

If I didn't know Christianity better I would have become a Buddhist after that. Talk about horse blinders.

In fact I would have left the Christian faith some 40+ years ago.

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

I guess in a weird sort of way being a person of religious faith and being an atheist are both absurd positions. The issues cannot be solved on either side of the coin. I guess being an agnostic is in that sense the only rational way to go.

Personally I see validity in all of the world's great faiths but that is a personal matter.

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

rjwould:-6

I would agree with that. There is no need to solve the problem. People of all walks, races, creed etc. see internally, the need to serve those in trouble. The golden rule goes back at least to Buddha if not earlier. I actually think it goes back to China at least some 6500 years ago. I guess in one sense it is an inborn observation by most. Perhaps instilled by God but nevertheless it is there.

In my view talk is cheap. It is the action that counts. Some would call that "good works" but I find that naive. For most folks it is simply a question of motivation which is an internal issue, from the heart, if you so believe.

Shalom

Ted:-6
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Post by gmc »

posted by rjwould

To me, agnosticism is for those who just don't want to be bothered to either defend or espouse their view on religious matters..And thats fine as well..


Bollocks! It's for those who are not prepared to make a leap of faith in either direction just to fit in with someone else's demented view of the world. If it's sitting on the fence it's because it's boggy on either side so prefer to keep wandering along the top till finding firmer ground to step on.

I don't need to defend my position because neither atheists or those who believe in god can produce a convincing rational argument to justify your beliefs.

Even ted agrees with me

I guess in a weird sort of way being a person of religious faith and being an atheist are both absurd positions. The issues cannot be solved on either side of the coin. I guess being an agnostic is in that sense the only rational way to go. Not that I think he is entirely irrational. :sneaky:

posted by rkwould

I think it is equally funny that many have to view atheism as anything other than a necessary term that describes those which do not fit the religious mold instead of some sort of organized group of people that share their own brand of religious like belief.....


There I would agree with you although it's not a word I would have used. They have to view it as another belief system as any concession that you don't need a laid down set of beliefs, let alone one with god at the centre of it, leaves them open to the possibility they might be wrong. They're terrified.

By the same token you can't shake someone that truly believes in whatever faith as they are secure in their own beliefs. They I find tend to be quite tolerant and will happily talk about it without feeling the need to slaughter anyone or taking it personally if you don't share their faith and resort to the you should just respect my beliefs because it's my religion type of nonsense. You can respect somebody's belief without sharing them but just because they are religious beliefs doesn't mean they shouldn't be challenged or given any greater respect.

Atheists are quite capable of being equally irrational but I think Ted and RJwould should argue about which is the most irrational and therefore the most right.

posted by RJwould

We are born without knowledge of any God (contrary to what jester thinks), and the idea of God is learned, but because it is so prevalent in at least American society, one must exorcise it from their psyche if they choose to when and if they ever attain the freedom to do so.




That's what you think. can't prove it though can't you? You can have fun with all the counter arguments and analogies- such as You are born without knowledge of language but you can still get everybody to know what you want, you have to learn language but the basic know how is there, is it not the same with god?

You can't see the air you breathe but you can apply subjective tests to prove it exists, and see it's effects on the world around you (wind etc but if you can see the wind but happen to be sheltered the wind is still there even if it is not where you are ) and later objective tests to determine what it is made of. It existed before you could prove what it is made of it is was there it not therefore the same with god? You can have subjective test to prove he exists by the effect on the world around you maybe later there will be objective tests as well.

We can all crap without understanding where it comes from and have faith crap will come, perhaps past experience leads us to believe it will but if you have the runs the path to happiness is the right diet. (I bet you either laughed or took offence because I appear to be disrespecting religious faith)

posted by ted

A few comments on the rise of fundamentalism; "

"Yet, as we saw in the last chapter, this type of religiosity is actually a retreat from G

Knowing the history as I do I can agree with K. Armstrong on these points.


I too would agree with her, as to why it is reappearing that is a whole separate topic. I can't see it as being truly "christian" however it is dressed up. It seems to be a kind of christian fascism in the states.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

I think that if I am am faced with God and Heaven - as an atheist - I will be judged NOT on my belief about religion on Earth but on how I lived my life. Isn't religion based on how you live your life? If there is a heaven - I know I will be welcomed. I am not afraid.

So by the title of this thread - I have a lot of faith.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by Accountable »

nvalleyvee;787336 wrote: I think that if I am am faced with God and Heaven - as an atheist - I will be judged NOT on my belief about religion on Earth but on how I lived my life. Isn't religion based on how you live your life? If there is a heaven - I know I will be welcomed. I am not afraid.



So by the title of this thread - I have a lot of faith.
:yh_youkid You're so doomed.
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Post by nvalleyvee »

Abso - f- ing- lutely.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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Post by gmc »

rjwould;787241 wrote: Then how about this..(Now don't forget I am speaking of how I interpret).Agnosticism is like one exercising their 5th amendment right?.....Agnosticism was part of my journey away, at a certain point it became a bridge to non belief in God for me...


OK having looked up the fifth amendment I would say hardly.

I'm not sure whether you mean the right to silence or trial by jury and due process.

But of what would I be accused?

Would god allow trial by jury? Since he is the supreme being then allowing others to make the decision doesn't seem at all likely (bear in mind the idea of a trial by peers is to control the power of the state and defend against the abuse of power.) and Since he is all knowing presumably he knows my guilt or otherwise and also what I think or have done so the right to silence is bit academic.

In a Scottish court if the case for god and the case for his non existence were tried the verdict would probably be not proven in both cases.
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Post by gmc »

rjwould;787527 wrote: No, I mean the right to refuse to answer on the grounds of self incrimination..


What am I accused of? Incriminate myself, how, what have I done?

If god gave me free will then all I can be accused of is exercising it. If god is all knowing and knows what decision I would make in exercising my free will then I am being accused of doing something he knew I was going to do and gave me the will to do it so who is actually to blame.

It's one of these interminable questions that you can go round and round in. A kind of eternal mobius strip of logic going nowhere.

You can no more prove there is no god than jester or ted or the pope can prove that there is one. You either believe there is a god or you believe there isn't. Or you decide you don't know and reserve judgement which means you get aggro from all sides because they can't believe you don't agree with them and think it is because you haven't thought about it enough, don't know enough science or haven't read the bible properly.

You each belief what you have chosen to believe. You have my good wishes.
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Post by Ted »

It is interesting that Ms. Armstrong also points out that in history folks who often claimed to be Christian etc were called atheists because they did not believe exactly as the general public thought.

Essentially God is a highly subjective experience and as such is not provable in the scientific sense. With that I have no problem. This does not deny the reality of God but is most certainly not provable in the usual sense.

Personally I think, whether one is an atheist or an agnostic or a member of a faith group each of us will be judged on our actions and the motivation behind them. For this position there is ample commentary in the Christian sacred writings and in the writings of the other faiths as well.

Just for interest I do not believe that I have all the answers or all of the truth. I believe they are beyond human capability.

Shalom

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Post by Omni_Skittles »

Jester;788616 wrote: Personally I think, whether one is an atheist or an agnostic or a member of a faith group each of us will be judged on our actions and the motivation behind them.



You got that right. A gree 100%

Mark the Day folks, Jester Agreed with Ted 100%!
OMG!!!!!!! GASP! it's not possible... not at all possible... there has got to be a catch somewhere!
Smoke signals ftw!
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Post by theia »

Omni_Skittles;788624 wrote: OMG!!!!!!! GASP! it's not possible... not at all possible... there has got to be a catch somewhere!


You've got to believe it, OS, cos it happened :eek: The sky here is littered with pigs, which may be further proof. But then it was February 29th when Ted and Jester agreed ("well, sort of," added theia, having checked the dates of said posts after submitting hers) and there won't be another for four years :)
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by gmc »

Jester;788616 wrote: Personally I think, whether one is an atheist or an agnostic or a member of a faith group each of us will be judged on our actions and the motivation behind them.



You got that right. A gree 100%

Mark the Day folks, Jester Agreed with Ted 100%!


In which case would you both also agree that what faith you follow doesn't matter-equally not following any will not matter either.
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Post by Ted »

gmc:-6

I can agree with that. Since God, if you so believe, judges the heart S?He judges the motivation. I have no problem at all with that statement.

Shalom

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Post by Ted »

Actually Jester and I do agree on certain points so please don't anyone have a heart attack because it shows up once in awhile. LOL

Shalom

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Post by gmc »

Actually Jester and I do agree on certain points so please don't anyone have a heart attack because it shows up once in awhile. LOL


Actually I agree with both of you as well sometimes even if it's to just agree to disagree.

So in conclusion it takes a lot of faith to be a an atheist just as it takes a lot to believe in god.

Both require belief in something that can't be proved.

Both are irrational and it's a moot point which belief system causes the most conflict. (IMO that would be religion although you can argue that is due to cynical manipulation by would be leaders rather than religion itself) in which case we would be far Better off without religion and should therefore take steps to stop religious groups being able to educate their children away from contact with the outside would and prevent their baleful influence on the teaching of science.

On the other hand religion is very important and has had and is having a major impact on the world and influences so many so it shouldn't be ignored or treated with disrespect, nor should it be given undue reverence either (for want of a better word). Muslim christian, atheist etc ete need to learn to tolerate each other and live in a secular society where any group that preaches intolerance for race religion or any other reason whatsoever can only find stony ground for their propaganda.

That means christian fundamentalists have to accept that lifestyles their religion finds unacceptable, such as homosexuality, are none of their concern and they should leave people to themselves.

By the same token atheists that view religion as nothing more than myth and fabrication have to accept that others don't agree with them.

There are always areas where there is common ground-theft, murder, paedophilia atc require the sanction of society but common law should rule on how to deal with them not religious law.

basically you're all going to have to become liberals in the old fashioned sense

liberal

• adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform.


(it's the same definition in the american dictionary so it's one of those words where phenomenon of newspeak can be seen in action at least in the states where it seems to have become an insult. My favourite response when I meet the same thing here is to ask what they have against tolerance and individual freedom. Often people repeat what the have heard rather than think about it)

and learn to be tolerant of others. It's a age old idea and monotheists have serious problems with it but that shouldn't put you off.

There are a lot of things you can disagree on but also have fun arguing about. The problem i find is that so many of a religious disposition claim protection from debate just cos it's religion and anyone that doesn't believe has no right to comment and take everything as being personal. Ludicrous on an anonymous forum. I find it very hard to dislike someone I don't know and am not likely to meet.

For instance many of the events in the bible did actually happen. (obviously things like the creation myth are just that, a myth) I wouldn't explain then as being an act of god but there are plausible scientific explanations that make sense. To me the insistence on a literal in the bible detracts more than a little. It's a waste of time talking to those who believe like that.

The concentration on Judaism as being the wellspring of everything is ludicrous as well. Most of the world is not influenced by any of the middle eastern religions

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted View Post

jester

If she is wrong then the historical record is wrong, which I doubt. I could certainly go along with your comment that justice comes from God. However, I don't believe that God is concerned about the name they give Him/Her.

Shalom

Ted

Ted, she is wrong, but the historical record is the historical record, her interpretation of the historical record is off.

Im fully accept that a different culture might refer to God by a different name, but his character and attributes do not change.


That for instance is interesting. It's unlikely we will agree but that is not sufficient reason not to argue about it.
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Post by yaaarrrgg »

gmc;790256 wrote: Actually I agree with both of you as well sometimes even if it's to just agree to disagree.

So in conclusion it takes a lot of faith to be a an atheist just as it takes a lot to believe in god.

Both require belief in something that can't be proved.

Both are irrational and it's a moot point which belief system causes the most conflict. (IMO that would be religion although you can argue that is due to cynical manipulation by would be leaders rather than religion itself) in which case we would be far Better off without religion and should therefore take steps to stop religious groups being able to educate their children away from contact with the outside would and prevent their baleful influence on the teaching of science.




I'm not seeing that conclusion. :)

When I listen to most theists, often it's pretty clear to me that they are just projecting a part of themselves onto reality, and calling that "God." It's the same reason why God is human-like in character (with thoughts/will/memory/knowledge/emotion), and often shares the same attributes as the believer in that God. Black/White thinkers believe in a Black/White thinking God. Loving people see a loving God. Rational people see a rational God. Irrational people see an irrational God. Etc. There's a God for every theist.

My proof? Mostly from personal experience. I was a theist myself for years (fundamentalist for several years in fact) and that is what I could observe myself doing. I also see other theists doing it. A great example ... look at George Bush. Did God seriously tell him to attack an oil-rich country that defied his father? Seems pretty obvious there's some projection here.

Of course not all theists are projecting themselves as God ... or do so to the same degree. Some have a more abstract idea of God ... but it all plays a conspicuously convenient role in answering questions in the exact format that a person wants ... feeding the illusion that reality makes sense to and for us humans. :)

But for me, atheism isn't really a belief system, as much as just rejecting this thought process. It's pretty easy to spot once you see it in yourself.

Also, I'm not sure that existence is even the central difference between the different thought processes. It's not that I disbelieve God exists ... I think people are just seeing a reflection of themselves in reality. So, to some extent God is a real phenomena (perhaps even a structure of some people's brain), but will fade if humans ever become extinct. I just don't see it has having a mind-independent reality.

There's also the issue of burden of proof. Generally, the person making a claim of (mind-independent) existence does the proving. By default, if there's no way to prove something exists, that in itself is an excellent reason to suppose that it *probably* doesn't exist.
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Post by gmc »

yaaarrrgg;791033 wrote: I'm not seeing that conclusion. :)

When I listen to most theists, often it's pretty clear to me that they are just projecting a part of themselves onto reality, and calling that "God." It's the same reason why God is human-like in character (with thoughts/will/memory/knowledge/emotion), and often shares the same attributes as the believer in that God. Black/White thinkers believe in a Black/White thinking God. Loving people see a loving God. Rational people see a rational God. Irrational people see an irrational God. Etc. There's a God for every theist.

My proof? Mostly from personal experience. I was a theist myself for years (fundamentalist for several years in fact) and that is what I could observe myself doing. I also see other theists doing it. A great example ... look at George Bush. Did God seriously tell him to attack an oil-rich country that defied his father? Seems pretty obvious there's some projection here.

Of course not all theists are projecting themselves as God ... or do so to the same degree. Some have a more abstract idea of God ... but it all plays a conspicuously convenient role in answering questions in the exact format that a person wants ... feeding the illusion that reality makes sense to and for us humans. :)

But for me, atheism isn't really a belief system, as much as just rejecting this thought process. It's pretty easy to spot once you see it in yourself.

Also, I'm not sure that existence is even the central difference between the different thought processes. It's not that I disbelieve God exists ... I think people are just seeing a reflection of themselves in reality. So, to some extent God is a real phenomena (perhaps even a structure of some people's brain), but will fade if humans ever become extinct. I just don't see it has having a mind-independent reality.

There's also the issue of burden of proof. Generally, the person making a claim of (mind-independent) existence does the proving. By default, if there's no way to prove something exists, that in itself is an excellent reason to suppose that it *probably* doesn't exist.


Your "proof" is entirely subjective. a monotheist can also come up with "proof" based on their own experience.

By default, if there's no way to prove something exists, that in itself is an excellent reason to suppose that it *probably* doesn't exist


Probably is the key thing. By definition an atheist is someone who believes god does not exist. They have made a leap of faith to the point where they believe something they cannot prove just as a theist has made the same leap in the opposite direction.

Oxford engish dictionary

atheism

/aythi-iz’m/

• noun the belief that God does not exist.


When I use the term atheist it is in that sese I am using it mean someone who does not believe in god. It is not someone who has no need for a belief in god or hasn't made up their mind or now rejects religious faith.

balance of probability (or your interpretation of the facts) may have you saying you probably are an atheist because you don't think there is a god but you're not one because you haven't made that leap to belief there really isn't.

seems to me you are saying you don't know for certain but on balance believe god to be unlikely. You don't have to be one or the other you know you can just say I don't know when someone asks if you believe in god.

But for me, atheism isn't really a belief system, as much as just rejecting this thought process. It's pretty easy to spot once you see it in yourself.


Well how can it be a belief system? How can you have a belief system about something that isn't there? certainly you can't have any kind of dogma you can follow, it's very much a personal thing. a conclusion you come to. Although I think I get what you mean.

Monotheists believe in god and then fight amongst themselves about the right way to worship. Atheists don't believe in god but there isn't the same scope to quarrel about he best way not to not believe.

The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities. I don't believe either which I suppose for want of a better word makes me an agnostic.

Came across this site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/

Had a look at some of the american sites. Boy is there a hated debate going on.
yaaarrrgg
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by yaaarrrgg »

gmc;791192 wrote: Your "proof" is entirely subjective. a monotheist can also come up with "proof" based on their own experience.


That's true. I'm sure a theist sees "God" as real as I might see my own reflection in a mirror.

gmc;791192 wrote: seems to me you are saying you don't know for certain but on balance believe god to be unlikely. You don't have to be one or the other you know you can just say I don't know when someone asks if you believe in god.




I don't believe that absolute certainty is rational either. The available evidence can only show give a limited slice of the picture. And logic can't really teach anything without further assumption. So at best, we can only assign truth values in between 0 and 1.

IMO it's kinda like the debate about the existence of aliens ... with God being one particular kind of non-matter-based lifeform or crypto-zoological animal.

On a more general level ... sure, it's possible that life could exist outside of what we know it as. It's an interesting possibility. But what happens with that kind of speculation isn't disproof, but under-determination. Why should we consider one remote possibility as any more special than an infinite number of competing possibilities?
gmc
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by gmc »

rjwould;791278 wrote: When it comes to belief in God, all we have is subjectivity. I must find a way to explain atheism....You seem to see it as a reaction to theism, but it isn't, it is what is, and since belief in God is so strong, one can only be seen as an proponent or opponent . Agnosticism is belief in God because it not a recognition of proof...And the proof of non-existence of God is the non-proof of God's existence.

Faith itself is proof that no God exists..The book of Hebrews says faith is believing without any proof. Jesus said there would be no proof. Why? Because there is none....One could even go as far as to say Jesus may have been atheist....He either was atheist or God does exist and he was everything the Bible claims he was, and the Bible was written by Gods direction through the Holy Spirit.....In reality, there is no middle ground, except to admit it is in ones own mind...And that should be palatable for anyone..


I must find a way to explain atheism..


You already have When it comes to belief in God, all we have is subjectivity.

It's the same with atheism. It's a subjective belief.

You seem to see it as a reaction to theism, but it isn't, it is what is,


By the definition you are using then One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or

supreme intelligent Being.


Christians are also atheists since they deny the existence of pagan gods on the other hand they can't be because they believe in a supreme being. That's why I prefer the more stark version. An atheist believes There is no god or gods. Keeps it simple rather than spending time debating what atheist is. (besides Webster's is full of wrongly spelt words like color and harbor instead of colour and harbour, I wouldn't rust it:sneaky:)

proof. Jesus said there would be no proof. Why? Because there is none....One could even go as far as to say Jesus may have been atheist....He either was atheist or God does exist and he was everything the Bible claims he was, and the Bible was written by Gods direction through the Holy Spirit..


That's the same point I'm making. You either believe in god or you don't. atheism or religion both require belief.

You seem to see it as a reaction to theism, but it isn't, it is what is,


No I don't. I think we actually agree there. The problem a lot of religious people seem to have is that if you consider anything that disagrees with your belief system as being in opposition to it or in reaction to it, or it's because you don't know X,Y,Z. The assumption is once you read the bible you will see it the same way they do and believe the same way. That you don't freaks some of them out.

It's the same with atheists, when you ask why do you believe that they have loads of explanations but at the end it always boils down to I just believe it.

Don't bother quoting the bible to me as if it is some kind of proof of anything. I find the belief that an ancient text translated numerous times by varying quality of translators and at the behest of those who have their own political agendas as being written by god's direction through the holy spirit a ludicrous thing to believe.

Believe it if you choose but don't demand that others take you seriously or refrain from pointing out the obvious flaws in the logic.

On the other hand a lot of the events did actually happen and looking at it with the scientific knowledge we have now clearly some of the events were natural catastrophes, earthquake etc that if you don't know what causes it then god is a pretty good thing to explain it. Som I wouldn't ignore the bible or dismiss it all as nonsense (except for the creation myth) I just don't see it as being the word of god and a guide for life.

Nor do I buy in to this idea that you need religion to be a moral person. On the other hand you need religion to be a real bigot but I think that comes from taking the old testament literally rather than the new

You explain the meaning of life around you in terms of your faith. When you ask an atheist what is the purpose of life then, there is none is not an answer I find satisfactory either.

I'm not claiming there is a middle ground I don't really believe either religion or atheism offers a satisfactory explanation and I object to both sides claiming the moral high ground.
yaaarrrgg
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by yaaarrrgg »

gmc;791409 wrote: You explain the meaning of life around you in terms of your faith. When you ask an atheist what is the purpose of life then, there is none is not an answer I find satisfactory either.


Meaning is something that we ascribe to a thing ... life has whatever meaning you want it to have.

Of course many people do not feel comfortable with that level of creativity, and prefer a pre-made version of meaning. Regardless though any meaning (whether pre-manufactured or custom made) is made up by someone. That doesn't make either less valid ... it's art ... like the difference between a print and a painting. Some prints are better than what a person could paint on their own. I wouldn't say forcing creativity is inherently good or bad ... some people are better off buying art from someone else.

Although one recurring issue I see with using God to "explain" things, is that the explanations don't ever really seem to answer any question ... as much as just pushing it back a notch.

For example, assuming God exists, why would God have created the meaning he supposedly did ... which I assume is for all humans to serve and glorify him? It's all still made up by someone, and honestly no less arbitrary than if you or I made it up. Also, it seems a little self-serving on his part (especially with "him" being the projected ego of some ancient priest trying to get out of doing any real work). :)
gmc
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by gmc »

posted by yaaarrrgg

Although one recurring issue I see with using God to "explain" things, is that the explanations don't ever really seem to answer any question ... as much as just pushing it back a notch.


God moves in mysterious ways. It is not for us to know these things. If you have faith that is sufficient answer. ( I assume, since i cant claim to have any i may be wrong

You're expecting a rational answer to a rational question from someone that believes in something that is irrational. If they could answer the question then god exists and we probably wouldn't be here.

posted by rjwould

I like the saying, 'the meaning of life is to give life meaning.'


Rubbish the answers forty two.
Ted
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by Ted »

jester:-6

Somewhere a way back I did and do agree with gmc.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by Ted »

It seems to me that the drive for scientism and rational proof with evidence ignores a whole part of human existence; intuition.

Love, hatred, bigotry etc. do exist but one cannot prove love in a lab or with any kind of objective proof. These are subjective experiences that can and do show up in one's behaviour but they cannot be proven scientifically. This does not mean they don't exist.

God, if you so believe, is a personal subjective experience. It is beyond the ability of logic or rationalism to prove one way or the other. In fact I seriously doubt the existence of pure objectivity. I don't believe it exists at all. We can never know a thing or living being in itself. Whatever we see is subject to filtration through the human brain and thus interpretation which by its very nature is subjective.

Modern theology does not see God as a person. The anthropomorphism of the past has led to all kinds of absurdities and problems. This has already been mentioned by others. In the past man has projected onto God arms, legs, eyes etc. Man has indeed created God in his [man's] own image.

The present thinking is, if you so believe, that true essence of God is beyond human understanding; that what we know of God is only through His/Her activities in the world. The essence of God is beyond human language and conceptualization abilities.

The nature of the Bible is an whole other issue. The fact is that it is a religious book and neither a history or science book. It is a book that contains some kernels of history throughout. It was meant to be read in a metaphorical or symbolic way. It has profound truths to teach but it does not have to be historically accurate to do so.

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by Ted »

jester:-6

Basically that was my point. Once again I, heaven forbid, think we agree.LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6
Ted
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It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Post by Ted »

rjwould:-6

Microbiologist Dr. Arthur Peacock would strongly disagree with you that we are simply chemical and electrical reactions. He is convinced that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. "God and the New Biology". Dr. Francis Collins, head of the world genome project and author of "The Language of God" is also so convinced. Of course this does not prove it so but certainly lends weight to that belief considering they are experts in their field.

The next question is which comes first the electrical activity or the stimulus. In reading an article on the brain in a recent edition of "Scientific American" the researches will admit they do not understand the brain.

Let us go one further. If we are made of atoms and we know that following death these atoms will continue to exist in their individual states than why does any one of them worry about death since they will continue to exist anyway. Humans seem to worry about this particular aspect of life. But why? They will continue to exist in one form or another. Why should any one of the atoms in my body care whether I live or die? Why do I care since I am only a combination of all these bits of material that will continue to exist anyway?

Shalom

Ted:-6
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