Hope6;782806 wrote: we all would have been born as sinless people if not for Adam and Eve messing it all up. They only had one rule and they couldn't even keep that one! When they sinned the whole human race lost favor with God. The only way to get it back is through Jesus.
So because of what Adam and Eve did, God had no choice but to create me sinful?
So God's not all-powerful?
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
to rj I actually disagree with the pastor I think our souls did exist before we were born. I heard another pastor make the comment that he wished newborn babies could talk ,because they had just come from God and they could tell us what heaven is like.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
spot;782818 wrote: So because of what Adam and Eve did, God had no choice but to create me sinful?
So God's not all-powerful?
He didn't create you sinful, He created you with a free will We choose whether or not to sin.
So God's not all-powerful?
He didn't create you sinful, He created you with a free will We choose whether or not to sin.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782835 wrote: Thats interesting...You were a baby once, do you remember? Babies do talk when they develop the skills....
I sure any memories they have of heaven go away very quickly, long before they are able to talk
I sure any memories they have of heaven go away very quickly, long before they are able to talk
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;782832 wrote: He didn't create you sinful, He created you with a free will We choose whether or not to sin.
No, that's not Christian thinking and it's not what you said either. What you said first time was right. "When they sinned the whole human race lost favor with God. The only way to get it back is through Jesus". That's the official line of traditional Christianity. Go and check the Baptism service if you like. What is it we ask God to do for infants who've obviously never sinned yet themselves? "Sanctify this Water to the mystical washing away of sin; and grant that this Child, now to be baptized therein, may receive the fulness of thy grace and ever remain in the number of thy faithful and elect children". The infant is born in sin. Either God chose to bring me into existence in that state or he's not all-powerful.
"Just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". Except that I refuse to accept salvation through Christ. If God reacts to my refusal by having me tortured for eternity then He's evil.
No, that's not Christian thinking and it's not what you said either. What you said first time was right. "When they sinned the whole human race lost favor with God. The only way to get it back is through Jesus". That's the official line of traditional Christianity. Go and check the Baptism service if you like. What is it we ask God to do for infants who've obviously never sinned yet themselves? "Sanctify this Water to the mystical washing away of sin; and grant that this Child, now to be baptized therein, may receive the fulness of thy grace and ever remain in the number of thy faithful and elect children". The infant is born in sin. Either God chose to bring me into existence in that state or he's not all-powerful.
"Just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". Except that I refuse to accept salvation through Christ. If God reacts to my refusal by having me tortured for eternity then He's evil.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
spot;782850 wrote: No, that's not Christian thinking and it's not what you said either. What you said first time was right. "When they sinned the whole human race lost favor with God. The only way to get it back is through Jesus". That's the official line of traditional Christianity. Go and check the Baptism service if you like. What is it we ask God to do for infants who've obviously never sinned yet themselves? "Sanctify this Water to the mystical washing away of sin; and grant that this Child, now to be baptized therein, may receive the fulness of thy grace and ever remain in the number of thy faithful and elect children". The infant is born in sin. Either God chose to bring me into existence in that state or he's not all-powerful.
"Just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". Except that I refuse to accept salvation through Christ. If God reacts to my refusal by having me tortured for eternity then He's evil.
Baptism services for infants is a catholic tradition. As I said earlier in my posts I'm not catholic I'm a Southern Baptist we don't baptism people until they make the decision to come forward themselves. I was actually baptised at about the age of 10.
"Just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". Except that I refuse to accept salvation through Christ. If God reacts to my refusal by having me tortured for eternity then He's evil.
Baptism services for infants is a catholic tradition. As I said earlier in my posts I'm not catholic I'm a Southern Baptist we don't baptism people until they make the decision to come forward themselves. I was actually baptised at about the age of 10.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782854 wrote: Well thats not nice, is it? I wonder then if God intended for infants to remember heaven or it was simply an unforeseen consequence of birth?
BTW Hope----I do admire your strength......and conviction...no matter how misguided I personally think it is.....You're a person worth knowing...
I thank you for that. I think you are worth knowing too. I have to admit I've never done anything like this before. but I have to say I'm enjoying talking with all of you:)
BTW Hope----I do admire your strength......and conviction...no matter how misguided I personally think it is.....You're a person worth knowing...
I thank you for that. I think you are worth knowing too. I have to admit I've never done anything like this before. but I have to say I'm enjoying talking with all of you:)
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782822 wrote: [...] I want to create enough doubt in some people to at least cause them to retake inventory of what they are thinking and believing.
Constantly (objectively) questioning oneself is always very healthy, I believe. Scrub those preconceived notions of all the nonsense until all that's left is, well, sense.
Constantly (objectively) questioning oneself is always very healthy, I believe. Scrub those preconceived notions of all the nonsense until all that's left is, well, sense.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
This thread seems to be ignoring all the other faiths that believe in a different God than the Christians. Should they be just as concerned as atheists, Hope?
There is a lot of prejudice against Atheists. As opposed to faith, I think it takes a lot of courage to tell people that one is an atheist. It is often met with shock and horror.
There is a lot of prejudice against Atheists. As opposed to faith, I think it takes a lot of courage to tell people that one is an atheist. It is often met with shock and horror.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
koan;782878 wrote: This thread seems to be ignoring all the other faiths that believe in a different God than the Christians. Should they be just as concerned as atheists, Hope?
There is a lot of prejudice against Atheists. As opposed to faith, I think it takes a lot of courage to tell people that one is an atheist. It is often met with shock and horror.
I asked earlier in this post to anybody who didn't believe in a Christian God what about all the other religions in the world? Did they believe in any higher power? I got no responses.
There is a lot of prejudice against Atheists. As opposed to faith, I think it takes a lot of courage to tell people that one is an atheist. It is often met with shock and horror.
I asked earlier in this post to anybody who didn't believe in a Christian God what about all the other religions in the world? Did they believe in any higher power? I got no responses.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
And the discussion has ended up being a directive from one Christian point of view. This might be a good time to reverse that trend.
I'd like to hear spot's understanding of what happens after death as he does profess to be Christian and, in this thread, is only disagreeing with the aspect of post death judgment.
For myself, I believe in a universal energy source that most people call God, I don't believe we are judged by anyone other than our higher selves, I don't care what other people believe as long as it makes them happy and allows them to live a good life - whatever good means in this instance. I have found, in my discussions with atheists, that they seem content to transfer spiritual power to themselves and choose their belief system because it empowers them.
I'd like to hear spot's understanding of what happens after death as he does profess to be Christian and, in this thread, is only disagreeing with the aspect of post death judgment.
For myself, I believe in a universal energy source that most people call God, I don't believe we are judged by anyone other than our higher selves, I don't care what other people believe as long as it makes them happy and allows them to live a good life - whatever good means in this instance. I have found, in my discussions with atheists, that they seem content to transfer spiritual power to themselves and choose their belief system because it empowers them.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;782793 wrote: all you have to do is look around you to know [my] God exists. theres no way this whole universe and everything in it happened by accident
Most likely, we don't fully know why the Universe exists, and possibly never will. I can invent a reason that explains it to me, that doesn't mean that reason is correct.
There's also a couple issues with an appeal to a supernatural God as an explanation:
First off what kind of sicko would make this world?
Also, you are explaining the existence of something complex (the Universe) in terms of something even more complex and unknowable (God). Does it really explain anything? We're only left with something even more complex that is unexplainable... Why/how does your God exist?
There's more than one idea of God floating around too ... and in general an infinite number of possible theories to explain the existence the Universe. How do you disprove alternate theories of God?
Most likely, we don't fully know why the Universe exists, and possibly never will. I can invent a reason that explains it to me, that doesn't mean that reason is correct.
There's also a couple issues with an appeal to a supernatural God as an explanation:
First off what kind of sicko would make this world?
Also, you are explaining the existence of something complex (the Universe) in terms of something even more complex and unknowable (God). Does it really explain anything? We're only left with something even more complex that is unexplainable... Why/how does your God exist?
There's more than one idea of God floating around too ... and in general an infinite number of possible theories to explain the existence the Universe. How do you disprove alternate theories of God?
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782904 wrote: Empowers them to do what? Transfer spiritual power to themselves? What does that mean?
Spiritual power... the abilities normally ascribed to God.
Transfer... to move from one place to another.
It means what it says.
Spiritual power... the abilities normally ascribed to God.
Transfer... to move from one place to another.
It means what it says.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782933 wrote: So, they think of themselves as God? What about the empowerment question? You forgot to address that one..
People decide on their own level of belief in what God can do. In the world of the "Godless" they have, in my experience, made themselves the only God. Have you never met anyone who thought they were God? Physicians are stereotypically presented with this attitude. Think Alec Baldwin in Malice. Others make themselves the closest thing to God they can subscribe in and the powers are very limited. Nevertheless, they are, in their own lives, the supreme force or entity that shapes their existence.
Talking about religion is like talking about the EB(Encyclopedia Britannica) You can discuss it as an entity in general, you can discuss various entries of interest, very few people would take on the task of discussing every word contained therein.
People decide on their own level of belief in what God can do. In the world of the "Godless" they have, in my experience, made themselves the only God. Have you never met anyone who thought they were God? Physicians are stereotypically presented with this attitude. Think Alec Baldwin in Malice. Others make themselves the closest thing to God they can subscribe in and the powers are very limited. Nevertheless, they are, in their own lives, the supreme force or entity that shapes their existence.
Talking about religion is like talking about the EB(Encyclopedia Britannica) You can discuss it as an entity in general, you can discuss various entries of interest, very few people would take on the task of discussing every word contained therein.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782949 wrote: Atheist A"the*ist, n. [Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god:
cf. F. ath['e]iste.]
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or
supreme intelligent Being.
[1913 Webster]
So, why would atheists transfer the spiritual abilities of a God that they do not believe exists to themselves? They're not atheists......
People function in linear states and see the world as a series of hierarchies. The atheist places himself at the top of the hierarchy.
cf. F. ath['e]iste.]
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or
supreme intelligent Being.
[1913 Webster]
So, why would atheists transfer the spiritual abilities of a God that they do not believe exists to themselves? They're not atheists......
People function in linear states and see the world as a series of hierarchies. The atheist places himself at the top of the hierarchy.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
yaaarrrgg;782911 wrote: Most likely, we don't fully know why the Universe exists, and possibly never will. I can invent a reason that explains it to me, that doesn't mean that reason is correct.
There's also a couple issues with an appeal to a supernatural God as an explanation:
First off what kind of sicko would make this world?
Also, you are explaining the existence of something complex (the Universe) in terms of something even more complex and unknowable (God). Does it really explain anything? We're only left with something even more complex that is unexplainable... Why/how does your God exist?
There's more than one idea of God floating around too ... and in general an infinite number of possible theories to explain the existence the Universe. How do you disprove alternate theories of God?
I believe some of these others religions gods may be talking about the same God , the religions just developed differently in different cultures.
As to if God really exists how is it that every civilization in the world worships some sort of a higher power? It's because we all came from Adam and Eve and they knew about God.
There's also a couple issues with an appeal to a supernatural God as an explanation:
First off what kind of sicko would make this world?
Also, you are explaining the existence of something complex (the Universe) in terms of something even more complex and unknowable (God). Does it really explain anything? We're only left with something even more complex that is unexplainable... Why/how does your God exist?
There's more than one idea of God floating around too ... and in general an infinite number of possible theories to explain the existence the Universe. How do you disprove alternate theories of God?
I believe some of these others religions gods may be talking about the same God , the religions just developed differently in different cultures.
As to if God really exists how is it that every civilization in the world worships some sort of a higher power? It's because we all came from Adam and Eve and they knew about God.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;782964 wrote: It's because we all came from Adam and Eve and they knew about God.
Who did Adam and Eve's children mate with? Just curious.
Who did Adam and Eve's children mate with? Just curious.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;782969 wrote: If people do that, it does not translate into assuming a Godlike existence.. It is adapting to a life in which the rules are to be responsible for your own well being....
I disagree.
I disagree.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Benjamin;782970 wrote: Who did Adam and Eve's children mate with? Just curious.
God created Eve for Adam, it's always been my thinking that He created mates for their children as well.
God created Eve for Adam, it's always been my thinking that He created mates for their children as well.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
koan;782957 wrote: People function in linear states and see the world as a series of hierarchies. The atheist places himself at the top of the hierarchy.
This sounds like a negative stereotype to me.
I would think some (perhaps many) atheists would reject the idea that this hierarchy objectively exists in any sense, other than in someone looking at the world in a self-serving way. That's not necessarily a function of religious belief.
As an atheist myself, I don't see myself at the top of any hierarchy, or even humans being on Earth to dominate other species for that matter.
However I would be more inclined to agree with the statement that "Theists function in linear states and see the world as a series of hierarchies" ... with God being at the top. That doesn't mean that a theist doesn't place themselves above all other humans either. Bush, for example, sees himself as second in command, right after God. Oddly, he and God seem to share a lot of the same desires.
This sounds like a negative stereotype to me.
I would think some (perhaps many) atheists would reject the idea that this hierarchy objectively exists in any sense, other than in someone looking at the world in a self-serving way. That's not necessarily a function of religious belief.
As an atheist myself, I don't see myself at the top of any hierarchy, or even humans being on Earth to dominate other species for that matter.
However I would be more inclined to agree with the statement that "Theists function in linear states and see the world as a series of hierarchies" ... with God being at the top. That doesn't mean that a theist doesn't place themselves above all other humans either. Bush, for example, sees himself as second in command, right after God. Oddly, he and God seem to share a lot of the same desires.
-
Omni_Skittles
- Posts: 2613
- Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:10 am
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Jester;783232 wrote: You come up with the odest notions to me sometimes Spot. If I ever get to your neck of the woods may we please sit down and pour over the scriptures together and strive over these things in person, for once I'd like to see your face when you say such things, to know if you do it pleadingly as in you really want to know the answer? Or if you do so with sarcasm and a straight face to prove a point. I am often bewildered about which way to go with you.
I am (I'd love to put my real name here) Jester, I am fearfully and wonderfully wrought by the Almighty God, the Great I AM, who makes no mistakes, and God is not a man that he should lie.
Its, been my life goal to discover all that God fearfully and wonderfully made me for, to find out my purpose while on this earth. Ive spent so much of my thought and time pursuing it that I think very litttle of heaven or hell. I'll live in my hear and now and let God care for all he created.
I find it difficult to believe that you consider yourself a mistake of God in creation.
lol i feel some preaching up in here... lol jk i know your name... Starts with an r ends with a t! lol
I am (I'd love to put my real name here) Jester, I am fearfully and wonderfully wrought by the Almighty God, the Great I AM, who makes no mistakes, and God is not a man that he should lie.
Its, been my life goal to discover all that God fearfully and wonderfully made me for, to find out my purpose while on this earth. Ive spent so much of my thought and time pursuing it that I think very litttle of heaven or hell. I'll live in my hear and now and let God care for all he created.
I find it difficult to believe that you consider yourself a mistake of God in creation.
lol i feel some preaching up in here... lol jk i know your name... Starts with an r ends with a t! lol
Smoke signals ftw!
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Both those posts are fine Jester, thank you. The thing is that the English language is independent of religion and words have very specific meanings. Good is one of them. You often repeat "God is Good" because that's the way you've been taught. What I've described makes it plain, at least to me, that it's impossible that God can accurately be described as good. All the rest's entirely true except for the propaganda element of God being good. He's demonstrably not.
Just out of interest, is this insistence that God is good based on any particular bible passage in your mind? Bearing in mind that good doesn't, for example, mean holy?
Just out of interest, is this insistence that God is good based on any particular bible passage in your mind? Bearing in mind that good doesn't, for example, mean holy?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
spot;783238 wrote: [...]
What I've described makes it plain, at least to me, that it's impossible that God can accurately be described as good. All the rest's entirely true except for the propaganda element of God being good. He's demonstrably not.
I disagree, as I explained before.
Accountable;782605 wrote: [...]
Another thing to consider: Have you ever heard us referred to as "children of God"? Think of that literally for a sec. Kids want what they want when they want it, and couldn't care less about consequences, plans, what's good for them, or anything else. A parent usually knows a larger context, and is willing to let the child "suffer" for awhile in favor of what's best for the child. Of course the child doesn't want to hear it. Mommy or Daddy is the meanest unfairest person in the world because she(he) NEVER gives me/lets me do what I want.
Isn't it possible, if God exists, that He might be letting us suffer these horrors because they aren't horrors at all in the larger context that He knows, and He's just doing what's best for us?
I think, at best, we are probably ill-informed to objectively assess God's goodness.
What I've described makes it plain, at least to me, that it's impossible that God can accurately be described as good. All the rest's entirely true except for the propaganda element of God being good. He's demonstrably not.
I disagree, as I explained before.
Accountable;782605 wrote: [...]
Another thing to consider: Have you ever heard us referred to as "children of God"? Think of that literally for a sec. Kids want what they want when they want it, and couldn't care less about consequences, plans, what's good for them, or anything else. A parent usually knows a larger context, and is willing to let the child "suffer" for awhile in favor of what's best for the child. Of course the child doesn't want to hear it. Mommy or Daddy is the meanest unfairest person in the world because she(he) NEVER gives me/lets me do what I want.
Isn't it possible, if God exists, that He might be letting us suffer these horrors because they aren't horrors at all in the larger context that He knows, and He's just doing what's best for us?
I think, at best, we are probably ill-informed to objectively assess God's goodness.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;782310 wrote: I think it would take a lot of faith in you're beliefs to be an atheist. All I would be able to think about is, what if I'm wrong! Any atheists out there who would like to respond, I would be curious to know. When you get to heaven and are standing before God to be judged and He wants to know, why you didn't believe in Him, what are you going to tell Him?
What will you do when you get to heaven and find it isn't there?
What will you do when you get to heaven and find it isn't there?
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Reminds me of a book I read a long time ago, Job: A Comedy of Justice
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
gmc;783410 wrote: What will you do when you get to heaven and find it isn't there?
Well, if there is no afterlife then I'll just be dead and I won't know anything about it.
Well, if there is no afterlife then I'll just be dead and I won't know anything about it.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;783510 wrote: Well, if there is no afterlife then I'll just be dead and I won't know anything about it.
Are you overlooking the possibility that another religion is correct? You are assuming that if you are wrong, everyone else is wrong too.
Are you overlooking the possibility that another religion is correct? You are assuming that if you are wrong, everyone else is wrong too.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
How about if the fundamentalists didn't get in to heaven cos god was fed up with being told why all these others shouldn't have been allowed in and weren't they his only true followers. Hell for an atheist would be trying to get them to appreciate the irony of it all.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;783510 wrote: Well, if there is no afterlife then I'll just be dead and I won't know anything about it.
What if the New Testament is wrong? What if God hates it when anyone accepts anything on blind faith. He may be thinking, "Jeez, I gave them all brains and they don't even bother to use them. That does it. They're all going to hell."
What if the New Testament is wrong? What if God hates it when anyone accepts anything on blind faith. He may be thinking, "Jeez, I gave them all brains and they don't even bother to use them. That does it. They're all going to hell."
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;783904 wrote: Then if I understand you correctly, every person who has ever lived believed in a God....The only question has been, "Who" is God....Is that a fair summary of what you've said?
No.
No.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
In my experience, atheists have removed God from the hierarchy but bumped themselves up to absorb some of the duties normally assigned to God. They do not consider themselves God and they do not believe they can perform all the miracles normally assigned to God. They see themselves as the top of the hierarchy, solely responsible for their own fate.
I have no interest in debating words with you. You are free to disagree with what I have said. I still support my own belief in what I wrote and don't see why it has caused you so much problem.
The End.
I have no interest in debating words with you. You are free to disagree with what I have said. I still support my own belief in what I wrote and don't see why it has caused you so much problem.
The End.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
koan;784320 wrote: In my experience, atheists have removed God from the hierarchy but bumped themselves up to absorb some of the duties normally assigned to God. They do not consider themselves God and they do not believe they can perform all the miracles normally assigned to God. They see themselves as the top of the hierarchy, solely responsible for their own fate.
I have no interest in debating words with you. You are free to disagree with what I have said. I still support my own belief in what I wrote and don't see why it has caused you so much problem.
The End.
An atheist is someone that doesn't believe that god exists as in
the creator and supreme ruler of the universe. 2 (god) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature and human fortunes.
There are many different ways of looking at the world but an atheist doesn't believe in god. Many religious people be they christian, muslim, pagan, animist or followers of the cosmic comedian seem unable to grasp It is not an alternative religion or belief system, there is not a theology surrounding it or a special way you should not worship in order to be an atheist. Some atheists may indeed see themselves at the top of the hierarchy responsible for their own fate. But with all due respect that is your particular viewpoint you are using to understand someone with a different world view.
Probably more common are freethinkers or agnostics who tend to get it from both sides. The one thing atheists and the godly have in common is that both are irritatingly dogmatic, both think they have the only answer and feel they have a demented need to foist what they belief on everybody else.
Atheists can no more prove god doesn't exist than a chrisrtian can prove that god does exists both require an act of faith but on balance the atheists probably have it imo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
In Russell's 1947 pamphlet, Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic? (subtitled A Plea For Tolerance In The Face Of New Dogmas), he ruminates on the problem of what to call himself:
As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.
On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.
http://www.youtube.com/user/lbc4god
I have no interest in debating words with you. You are free to disagree with what I have said. I still support my own belief in what I wrote and don't see why it has caused you so much problem.
The End.
An atheist is someone that doesn't believe that god exists as in
the creator and supreme ruler of the universe. 2 (god) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature and human fortunes.
There are many different ways of looking at the world but an atheist doesn't believe in god. Many religious people be they christian, muslim, pagan, animist or followers of the cosmic comedian seem unable to grasp It is not an alternative religion or belief system, there is not a theology surrounding it or a special way you should not worship in order to be an atheist. Some atheists may indeed see themselves at the top of the hierarchy responsible for their own fate. But with all due respect that is your particular viewpoint you are using to understand someone with a different world view.
Probably more common are freethinkers or agnostics who tend to get it from both sides. The one thing atheists and the godly have in common is that both are irritatingly dogmatic, both think they have the only answer and feel they have a demented need to foist what they belief on everybody else.
Atheists can no more prove god doesn't exist than a chrisrtian can prove that god does exists both require an act of faith but on balance the atheists probably have it imo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
In Russell's 1947 pamphlet, Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic? (subtitled A Plea For Tolerance In The Face Of New Dogmas), he ruminates on the problem of what to call himself:
As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.
On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.
http://www.youtube.com/user/lbc4god
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
gmc;784403 wrote: An atheist is someone that doesn't believe that god exists as in
There are many different ways of looking at the world but an atheist doesn't believe in god. Many religious people be they christian, muslim, pagan, animist or followers of the cosmic comedian seem unable to grasp It is not an alternative religion or belief system, there is not a theology surrounding it or a special way you should not worship in order to be an atheist. Some atheists may indeed see themselves at the top of the hierarchy responsible for their own fate. But with all due respect that is your particular viewpoint you are using to understand someone with a different world view.
Probably more common are freethinkers or agnostics who tend to get it from both sides. The one thing atheists and the godly have in common is that both are irritatingly dogmatic, both think they have the only answer and feel they have a demented need to foist what they belief on everybody else.
Finally, something to work with. That is a valid point, that I'm viewing it from my own perspective. I have said "in my experience". I'm referring only to the people I've had the opportunity to discuss religion with.
The main difference, in view of life, the world and death, that I've found is the part where atheists don't think anything happens to us after we die. I'm keen to meet an atheist who believes in ghosts though. That would be fun.
The point I was trying to make that seems to have caused the stumbling block appears to me to be the reverse problem of atheists viewing my use of the word God with prejudice. God does not have to be omni-everything prior to the atheist stepping in to fill the shoes. Quite simply, to be one's own God means merely that a person believes that no greater being exists to wield power over a person's life. Some people strip down what powers are available but retain some forms of manifestation like visualization or putting sticky notes with new thought forms on them to try and change their own reality by repetition. They don't believe God as an exterior entity will grant them wishes but they do believe that they can change their own reality by reading new thought patterns off a piece of paper or meditating and visualizing what they want.
When I say they step into the shoes of God, it was my insistence on calling this lesser entity God that caused the problem. I see it as a prejudice against that word in the English language that created the disagreement. I've often been told that I shouldn't use the word God because it's been tainted now. I get tired of chasing words around though. If we use another one it will just become tainted as well.
God. God. God.
Anyone not freaked out by the word shouldn't react violently to it. I have no specific attachment to what it means. To me, the powers of God vary from the outrageous to the mundane. To me, atheists take credit for some of the things that others would ascribe to God... hence my previous statements.
There are many different ways of looking at the world but an atheist doesn't believe in god. Many religious people be they christian, muslim, pagan, animist or followers of the cosmic comedian seem unable to grasp It is not an alternative religion or belief system, there is not a theology surrounding it or a special way you should not worship in order to be an atheist. Some atheists may indeed see themselves at the top of the hierarchy responsible for their own fate. But with all due respect that is your particular viewpoint you are using to understand someone with a different world view.
Probably more common are freethinkers or agnostics who tend to get it from both sides. The one thing atheists and the godly have in common is that both are irritatingly dogmatic, both think they have the only answer and feel they have a demented need to foist what they belief on everybody else.
Finally, something to work with. That is a valid point, that I'm viewing it from my own perspective. I have said "in my experience". I'm referring only to the people I've had the opportunity to discuss religion with.
The main difference, in view of life, the world and death, that I've found is the part where atheists don't think anything happens to us after we die. I'm keen to meet an atheist who believes in ghosts though. That would be fun.
The point I was trying to make that seems to have caused the stumbling block appears to me to be the reverse problem of atheists viewing my use of the word God with prejudice. God does not have to be omni-everything prior to the atheist stepping in to fill the shoes. Quite simply, to be one's own God means merely that a person believes that no greater being exists to wield power over a person's life. Some people strip down what powers are available but retain some forms of manifestation like visualization or putting sticky notes with new thought forms on them to try and change their own reality by repetition. They don't believe God as an exterior entity will grant them wishes but they do believe that they can change their own reality by reading new thought patterns off a piece of paper or meditating and visualizing what they want.
When I say they step into the shoes of God, it was my insistence on calling this lesser entity God that caused the problem. I see it as a prejudice against that word in the English language that created the disagreement. I've often been told that I shouldn't use the word God because it's been tainted now. I get tired of chasing words around though. If we use another one it will just become tainted as well.
God. God. God.
Anyone not freaked out by the word shouldn't react violently to it. I have no specific attachment to what it means. To me, the powers of God vary from the outrageous to the mundane. To me, atheists take credit for some of the things that others would ascribe to God... hence my previous statements.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
btw, an atheist who believed in ghosts would be the equivalent humour imo to a theist who believes in a God that has a gender.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784513 wrote: What I've highlighted is what I said here:And you disagreed with here:
I disagreed with the way you reworded my thoughts.
You disagree with what comprises the role of God in a person's belief system. You want the word God removed from any discussion of an atheist's opinion. That overlooks the point I'm trying to make.
God comes in as many forms as there are humans. I call it God you might call it willpower or the power of positive thinking. I just don't care if you like the word God or not. I see one concept, not two.
I disagreed with the way you reworded my thoughts.
You disagree with what comprises the role of God in a person's belief system. You want the word God removed from any discussion of an atheist's opinion. That overlooks the point I'm trying to make.
God comes in as many forms as there are humans. I call it God you might call it willpower or the power of positive thinking. I just don't care if you like the word God or not. I see one concept, not two.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784437 wrote: I'm having real difficulty with the faith thing as applied to atheism, gmc. Otherwise, your post is, as usual, excellent.
I can see how one may apply faith to an agnostic, because they are more or less, on the fence regarding God, so to speak. Faith, however seems to me to be something that a person keeps close to the conscious side of thought in an ongoing manner, again, more or less... The only time faith comes into play for me on any conscious level is when I am relating to or conversing with a theist or deist.....As an atheist, I have no use for faith in any shape or form relating to religion or God..
We can attempt to make the case that 'expectation' is faith as I did in an earlier post regarding a light switch, however, with religion, ones expectations are beyond norm and logic....I have seen the light illuminate many times when I have turned the switch to the 'on' position and so therefore expect the same result the next time...And if in fact the light does not work, It can be repaired and made to work. There is no such equal expectation regarding faith in God........It doesn't work (show evidence of existence)...no matter how often it is exercised....and it can't be made to work either...
All we have in the end is the word of others which is hearsay and wouldn't hold up even in a mere human court, no less a celestial one, if one wants to believe that the American constitution and/or bill of rights is fashioned after that of God's....Will.....
I object to the term faith as well if it is taken to be simply a variation on religious faith.
But it applies to atheism in the sense that being an atheist also requires a leap of faith to belief something that you cannot prove. It's an article of faith-a firmly held belief that you cannot prove. A belief is a feeling that something exists or is true especially one that's without proof.
It's your opinion, your belief, that there is no god and it is no more valid than a theist who believes there is a god. At least atheists tend not to fight over whose non existent god is the right one or how he should not be worshipped.
You cannot apply faith to an agnostic cos they basically saying neither are right-you just don't know.
As to the american constitution/and or bill of rights being fashioned after god's will. Not being an American I find it a peculiar thing to argue about.
I would point out however, just to stir things up, that the very words and concepts behind it, liberty, democracy, republic, liberal democracy, individual the rule of law are all concepts that pre-date Christianity, in other words pagan. Even the eagle you have as a national symbol is a pagan one. When you stand with your hand on heart gazing at your flag it is a gesture that any roman or greek would have understood.
I can see how one may apply faith to an agnostic, because they are more or less, on the fence regarding God, so to speak. Faith, however seems to me to be something that a person keeps close to the conscious side of thought in an ongoing manner, again, more or less... The only time faith comes into play for me on any conscious level is when I am relating to or conversing with a theist or deist.....As an atheist, I have no use for faith in any shape or form relating to religion or God..
We can attempt to make the case that 'expectation' is faith as I did in an earlier post regarding a light switch, however, with religion, ones expectations are beyond norm and logic....I have seen the light illuminate many times when I have turned the switch to the 'on' position and so therefore expect the same result the next time...And if in fact the light does not work, It can be repaired and made to work. There is no such equal expectation regarding faith in God........It doesn't work (show evidence of existence)...no matter how often it is exercised....and it can't be made to work either...
All we have in the end is the word of others which is hearsay and wouldn't hold up even in a mere human court, no less a celestial one, if one wants to believe that the American constitution and/or bill of rights is fashioned after that of God's....Will.....
I object to the term faith as well if it is taken to be simply a variation on religious faith.
But it applies to atheism in the sense that being an atheist also requires a leap of faith to belief something that you cannot prove. It's an article of faith-a firmly held belief that you cannot prove. A belief is a feeling that something exists or is true especially one that's without proof.
It's your opinion, your belief, that there is no god and it is no more valid than a theist who believes there is a god. At least atheists tend not to fight over whose non existent god is the right one or how he should not be worshipped.
You cannot apply faith to an agnostic cos they basically saying neither are right-you just don't know.
As to the american constitution/and or bill of rights being fashioned after god's will. Not being an American I find it a peculiar thing to argue about.
I would point out however, just to stir things up, that the very words and concepts behind it, liberty, democracy, republic, liberal democracy, individual the rule of law are all concepts that pre-date Christianity, in other words pagan. Even the eagle you have as a national symbol is a pagan one. When you stand with your hand on heart gazing at your flag it is a gesture that any roman or greek would have understood.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
ok. Here's another approach:
Do you live in a different world than the one I live in?
If not, then we experience the same place but assign different sources to our experience.
I propose that an atheist normally splits what theists ascribe to God into functions of a)the self and b)Nature. Those same phenomenon generally exist, they are just assigned to different sources. In the theists belief system, they make God a separate entity that is above humans on the hierarchy. In the atheist's belief system, they take credit for some of the functions of a theist's God themselves and assign the rest to Nature which is below them on the hierarchy.
Do you live in a different world than the one I live in?
If not, then we experience the same place but assign different sources to our experience.
I propose that an atheist normally splits what theists ascribe to God into functions of a)the self and b)Nature. Those same phenomenon generally exist, they are just assigned to different sources. In the theists belief system, they make God a separate entity that is above humans on the hierarchy. In the atheist's belief system, they take credit for some of the functions of a theist's God themselves and assign the rest to Nature which is below them on the hierarchy.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784550 wrote: I see...When I was in the corporate world, we called that feedback...Where did you get that idea from? As I said here:I am able and willing to entertain with conversation any God fearing persons faith in God...How do you make the leap in saying you know what I want? And when did I disagree with as you put it, "You disagree with what comprises the role of God in a person's belief system."?
What I remember saying and thinking is that I don't share it....
And my feedback was that you didn't summarize me properly.
Have another go at your own comments quoted above. I think you got a little worked up. I can't muscle any sense out of it.
What I remember saying and thinking is that I don't share it....
And my feedback was that you didn't summarize me properly.
Have another go at your own comments quoted above. I think you got a little worked up. I can't muscle any sense out of it.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784569 wrote: I think I fully understand and respect your position...However, you must understand that at least in this atheists mind, I don't wrestle at all with the concept of a God or any supreme being....not even you know who....I spend no energy whatsoever in the idea of God and faith for myself.....Not even a little...
You are contradicting yourself by your numerous posts in religious threads on this forum.
You are contradicting yourself by your numerous posts in religious threads on this forum.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784569 wrote: I spend no energy whatsoever in the idea of God and faith for myself.....Not even a little...
From Dec 23 to Jan 2 you started six threads in the Religion forums questioning the ideas of God and faith. If one believes that you did that without malice then you were more concerned with matters of faith and God than anyone else on this forum.
From Dec 23 to Jan 2 you started six threads in the Religion forums questioning the ideas of God and faith. If one believes that you did that without malice then you were more concerned with matters of faith and God than anyone else on this forum.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784598 wrote: On the contrary...I am enjoying every bit of this exchange.....no offense meant and none taken on my part...I hope that is mutual...
I still have no clue what you were trying to say.
you wrote: I am able and willing to entertain with conversation any God fearing persons faith in God...How do you make the leap in saying you know what I want? And when did I disagree with as you put it, "You disagree with what comprises the role of God in a person's belief system."?
What I remember saying and thinking is that I don't share it....
I still have no clue what you were trying to say.
you wrote: I am able and willing to entertain with conversation any God fearing persons faith in God...How do you make the leap in saying you know what I want? And when did I disagree with as you put it, "You disagree with what comprises the role of God in a person's belief system."?
What I remember saying and thinking is that I don't share it....
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
rjwould;784611 wrote:
Why, may I ask have you abandoned the conversation this thread was meant to inspire by making it about my intentions? With all due respect it smells defensive....
LOL
I was just coming in here to protest about how this thread has become a discussion about you. Agreed. Lets allow the original topic to restore itself... without prejudice.
I'd like to know the difference in mystical qualities between God and Nature.
All religion began as a desire to comprehend the world around people as they perceived it. All science is the quest to comprehend the world around people as they perceived it. We have the same phenomenon and different explanations. It's all just a matter of what cupboard you put it in.
Why, may I ask have you abandoned the conversation this thread was meant to inspire by making it about my intentions? With all due respect it smells defensive....
LOL
I was just coming in here to protest about how this thread has become a discussion about you. Agreed. Lets allow the original topic to restore itself... without prejudice.
I'd like to know the difference in mystical qualities between God and Nature.
All religion began as a desire to comprehend the world around people as they perceived it. All science is the quest to comprehend the world around people as they perceived it. We have the same phenomenon and different explanations. It's all just a matter of what cupboard you put it in.
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
Hope6;782310 wrote: I think it would take a lot of faith in you're beliefs to be an atheist. All I would be able to think about is, what if I'm wrong! Any atheists out there who would like to respond, I would be curious to know. When you get to heaven and are standing before God to be judged and He wants to know, why you didn't believe in Him, what are you going to tell Him?
Faith based on Fear is not much of a foundation. I wonder how many people fall into that category?
Faith based on Fear is not much of a foundation. I wonder how many people fall into that category?
It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist
posted by koan
Finally, something to work with. That is a valid point, that I'm viewing it from my own perspective. I have said "in my experience". I'm referring only to the people I've had the opportunity to discuss religion with.
The main difference, in view of life, the world and death, that I've found is the part where atheists don't think anything happens to us after we die. I'm keen to meet an atheist who believes in ghosts though. That would be fun.
I missed this, judging from the times you must have been posting while i was still working out what I was going to post.
To me they are different questions.
do you believe in god.
No
What happens after you are dead.
ask several atheists and you'll probably get different answers ranging from nothing to something.
Ghosts may or may not be a phenomenon we do not yet understand. You can believe in ghosts without assuming that they are actually dead people that haven't passed over.
posted by koan
Quite simply, to be one's own God means merely that a person believes that no greater being exists to wield power over a person's life. Some people strip down what powers are available but retain some forms of manifestation like visualization or putting sticky notes with new thought forms on them to try and change their own reality by repetition. They don't believe God as an exterior entity will grant them wishes but they do believe that they can change their own reality by reading new thought patterns off a piece of paper or meditating and visualizing what they want.
I think i see where you are coming from. Can't say i agree with it. I suspect you will find many different explanations of what reality is or what happens after death amongst atheists. Whether they see themselves as masters of their own reality or subject to the vagaries of chance in a random universe I think you have a problem accepting that some may believe there is absolutely nothing either external or within man that can be tapped in to by meditating or visualising patterns off a bit of paper. If you believe in god then you have to explain everything in those terms. Someone who doesn't believe must just believe a variation of it in some way. There must be a belief system behind it all so if you don't believe in god your non belief must have a structure because you can't believe in nothing.
Try asking them what they think reality is. that's always entertaining.
posted by rjwould.
There is no leap of faith for me, it just so happens that the idea of God is contrary to my existence....thats all.....I don't need to be surrounded by believers to be an atheist, it is just a label which is applied to me in order to distinguish my position, which is natural, against those who believe in a God......I don't believe I am an atheist.....I am an atheist....I have nothing to prove by that because I don't care about the existence of any God....
Like many words in the english language it is the context that gives meaning not just the word itself. The word faith does not just refer to religious belief.
Oxford English Dictionary
belief
• noun 1 a feeling that something exists or is true, especially one without proof. 2 a firmly held opinion. 3 (belief in) trust or confidence in. 4 religious faith.
— PHRASES beyond belief astonishing; incredible.
— ORIGIN Old English.
Oxford English Dictionary
article of faith
• noun a firmly held belief
Faith
• noun 1 complete trust or confidence. 2 strong belief in a religion. 3 a system of religious belief.
— ORIGIN Old French feid, from Latin fides.
You do not believe in god. A religious person does. neither of you can apply any kind of objective test to prove he does or does not exist.
Therefore you have both made a leap to the point where you believe what you believe because there is no other way to get there. In other words each has made a leap of faith to believe as you do. If the term leap of faith bothers you then forget I used it. How about you have both made a leap over the logic hurdle.
Finally, something to work with. That is a valid point, that I'm viewing it from my own perspective. I have said "in my experience". I'm referring only to the people I've had the opportunity to discuss religion with.
The main difference, in view of life, the world and death, that I've found is the part where atheists don't think anything happens to us after we die. I'm keen to meet an atheist who believes in ghosts though. That would be fun.
I missed this, judging from the times you must have been posting while i was still working out what I was going to post.
To me they are different questions.
do you believe in god.
No
What happens after you are dead.
ask several atheists and you'll probably get different answers ranging from nothing to something.
Ghosts may or may not be a phenomenon we do not yet understand. You can believe in ghosts without assuming that they are actually dead people that haven't passed over.
posted by koan
Quite simply, to be one's own God means merely that a person believes that no greater being exists to wield power over a person's life. Some people strip down what powers are available but retain some forms of manifestation like visualization or putting sticky notes with new thought forms on them to try and change their own reality by repetition. They don't believe God as an exterior entity will grant them wishes but they do believe that they can change their own reality by reading new thought patterns off a piece of paper or meditating and visualizing what they want.
I think i see where you are coming from. Can't say i agree with it. I suspect you will find many different explanations of what reality is or what happens after death amongst atheists. Whether they see themselves as masters of their own reality or subject to the vagaries of chance in a random universe I think you have a problem accepting that some may believe there is absolutely nothing either external or within man that can be tapped in to by meditating or visualising patterns off a bit of paper. If you believe in god then you have to explain everything in those terms. Someone who doesn't believe must just believe a variation of it in some way. There must be a belief system behind it all so if you don't believe in god your non belief must have a structure because you can't believe in nothing.
Try asking them what they think reality is. that's always entertaining.
posted by rjwould.
There is no leap of faith for me, it just so happens that the idea of God is contrary to my existence....thats all.....I don't need to be surrounded by believers to be an atheist, it is just a label which is applied to me in order to distinguish my position, which is natural, against those who believe in a God......I don't believe I am an atheist.....I am an atheist....I have nothing to prove by that because I don't care about the existence of any God....
Like many words in the english language it is the context that gives meaning not just the word itself. The word faith does not just refer to religious belief.
Oxford English Dictionary
belief
• noun 1 a feeling that something exists or is true, especially one without proof. 2 a firmly held opinion. 3 (belief in) trust or confidence in. 4 religious faith.
— PHRASES beyond belief astonishing; incredible.
— ORIGIN Old English.
Oxford English Dictionary
article of faith
• noun a firmly held belief
Faith
• noun 1 complete trust or confidence. 2 strong belief in a religion. 3 a system of religious belief.
— ORIGIN Old French feid, from Latin fides.
You do not believe in god. A religious person does. neither of you can apply any kind of objective test to prove he does or does not exist.
Therefore you have both made a leap to the point where you believe what you believe because there is no other way to get there. In other words each has made a leap of faith to believe as you do. If the term leap of faith bothers you then forget I used it. How about you have both made a leap over the logic hurdle.