It takes a Lot of Faith to be an Atheist

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:20 pm

I think it would take a lot of faith in you're beliefs to be an atheist. All I would be able to think about is, what if I'm wrong! Any atheists out there who would like to respond, I would be curious to know. When you get to heaven and are standing before God to be judged and He wants to know, why you didn't believe in Him, what are you going to tell Him?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:24 pm

How can I be standing before something I dont believe in.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:30 pm

It doesn't matter if you believe in Him or not. If He is real when we die we will have to stand before Him to be judged.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:33 pm

Hope6;782317 wrote: It doesn't matter if you believe in Him or not. If He is real when we die we will have to stand before Him to be judged.I respect your beliefs, please respect mine.

I repeat " How can I be standing before something I dont believe in?"

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:33 pm

Hope6;782317 wrote: It doesn't matter if you believe in Him or not. If He is real when we die we will have to stand before Him to be judged.

By what right does He dare judge us, Hope? Simple brute force?

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:35 pm

Hope6;782317 wrote: It doesn't matter if you believe in Him or not. If He is real when we die we will have to stand before Him to be judged.
Seems like you are questioning your faith!:-3

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:37 pm

I don't think you have to have the brain of a six year old to think of something like this, it seems to me everyone would be a little nervous about what really happens when we die. I'm looking forward to spending my afterlife in heaven and I have no doubts that it exists.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:43 pm

In answer to Spot's question, I guess it is kind of by force. I was always taught that as soon as you die your soul is sent before God to be judged. There is a verse in the bible but I forget where, it says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:45 pm

That doesn't seem particularly good of him, setting Himself up as judge without any consent from those He's judging. None of us have asked Him to.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:50 pm

Yeah, according to the bible, it's something we don't have a choice in. Thats why I say it would take a lot of faith to be an atheist

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:50 pm

It takes a lot of faith to be a Christian. What's your point?

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:52 pm

Your right Hope, it does take a lot of faith, thankfully mines never let me down, lied to me or mislead me or preached to others or started wars...Its ME you see...I believe in myself:-6

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:54 pm

Hope6;782331 wrote: Yeah, according to the bible, it's something we don't have a choice in. Thats why I say it would take a lot of faith to be an atheist

There we are then. When He wants to know why I didn't believe in Him I'll tell Him that the notion of there being an evil God had never crossed my mind as a possibility, and let him get on with His forced judging. I can't stop Him from behaving badly if that's what He's going to do.

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:54 pm

Hope6;782331 wrote: Yeah, according to the bible, it's something we don't have a choice in. Thats why I say it would take a lot of faith to be an atheistNot everyone believes the bible is the word of God. You need to understand that. I am in Bible college and that's the first thing I learn. Once you get that... then go from there.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:58 pm

In answer to Pinky, I believe everyone should take responsibility for their own actions and decisions as well. Confession is not something I believe in, thats a Catholic thing and I'm not catholic I'm a Southern Baptist. We believe in talking directly to God through prayer asking forgiveness for anything we've done and then doing what we can to correct it.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:08 pm

In answer to Fuzzy Butts question, I won't have to explain every sin, as long as I believe that Jesus is the Savior and if I have asked God in Jesus' name to forgive me of all my sins I will be forgiven. Nobody is good enough on their own, if Jesus hadn't died for us we would all be doomed.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:14 pm

spot;782335 wrote: There we are then. When He wants to know why I didn't believe in Him I'll tell Him that the notion of there being an evil God had never crossed my mind as a possibility, and let him get on with His forced judging. I can't stop Him from behaving badly if that's what He's going to do.

I don't think He is an evil God He is a very loving God. If He wasn't He wouldn't have sent us Jesus so we could have a chance at salvation.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:19 pm

He didn't ask my permission to inflict all this life and suffering and misery on me, I had no choice at all about that, so I have no contract with Him promising to do anything at all. I can't stop Him from judging me and condemning me to eternal torture if that's what He insists on doing but I refuse to applaud that as goodness. It's sheer evil force. If He wants my cooperation then He has to make a bargain with me that I agree to.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:21 pm

I hope you guys aren't insulted by this question, I'm just curious about you're way of thinking, I've never talked to any actual atheists before.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:28 pm

You want to know why I don't believe in your God and I've explained it. Your God cannot possibly be good because he demands unjustified obedience from me under threat of eternal torture. I think that if there is a God then He has to be good, and the one you're describing cannot possibly be good. You insist that the only possible God is the one you believe in. Therefore there is no God.

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:42 pm

Hope6;782354 wrote: I hope you guys aren't insulted by this question, I'm just curious about you're way of thinking, I've never talked to any actual atheists before.
Guess what!!! Guess! well i'll tell you anyway... They're people too. Everyone gets to there own conclusion about God. Though you may believe the one way you do... so do i. You just have to accept that!

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:44 pm

spot;782352 wrote: He didn't ask my permission to inflict all this life and suffering and misery on me, I had no choice at all about that, so I have no contract with Him promising to do anything at all. I can't stop Him from judging me and condemning me to eternal torture if that's what He insists on doing but I refuse to applaud that as goodness. It's sheer evil force. If He wants my cooperation then He has to make a bargain with me that I agree to.

God doesn't cause all the pain and suffering in the world and as Christians we are not excluded from it, I've had my share of problems. What He does do is give us the strength to cope with the trouble when it does come along.

This poem by Mary Stevenson is a favorite of mine

Footprints in the Sand

One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.

Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky

In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.

Sometimes their were two sets of footprints

Other times there were only one.

This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods

of my life, when I was suffering from anguish sorrow or defeat,

I could only see one set of footprints.

So I said to the Lord, "you promised me Lord, that if I followed

you, you would walk with me always. But I have noticed that

during the most trying periods of my life there have only been

one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most

you have not been their for me?

The Lord replied, "The times when you have seen only one set of footprints

in the sand, it was then that I carried you.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:52 pm

Omni_Skittles;782370 wrote: Guess what!!! Guess! well i'll tell you anyway... They're people too. Everyone gets to there own conclusion about God. Though you may believe the one way you do... so do i. You just have to accept that!

I do except that everyome has their own conclusion about God. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, just like I have a right to mine. But I can also be curious about othe peoples opinions.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:52 pm

Hope6;782372 wrote: God doesn't cause all the pain and suffering in the world and as Christians we are not excluded from it
No, I wasn't saying He did. I'm saying I didn't agree to have it inflicted on me. I owe Him nothing because He didn't ask first whether I wanted it. Specifically, I don't owe Him obedience.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:01 pm

Thats where free will comes in. God made us with free will so we would have the ability to choose whether or not to follow Him. He doesn't force us to do anything except in the end when we'll have to answer why we didn't follow Him

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:06 pm

He forced life onto me without my permission. He can take it away again any time he likes, that would be good of Him. He can't torture me for all eternity simply because I refuse to obey His commandments though, that would be evil of Him because I never agreed to do that. If He can't be evil then there's no Hell. But you insist that the only possible God is the one you believe in and that he judges some people go to Hell. Therefore there is no God.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:16 pm

That's the point I've been trying to make, He can torture us for eternity for not obeying His commandments. This afterlife business is a serious thing. God loves us all and doesn't want to punish us but if we don't follow His rules He will.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:29 pm

Hope6;782406 wrote: That's the point I've been trying to make, He can torture us for eternity for not obeying His commandments. This afterlife business is a serious thing. God loves us all and doesn't want to punish us but if we don't follow His rules He will.

The only thing we need to agree, then, is that this God of yours is evil. At that point I can believe in Him just like you do, but He can't force His will on me without my consent if He's good. If you insist that God is good then He can't both exist and behave as you describe.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:33 pm

rjwould;782410 wrote: Do you believe everything you were taught, Hope? At what point do you challenge what you were told by others?

It takes faith to believe the light will come on when you hit the switch too, but that has nothing to do with any god. What does faith and atheism have to do with one another?

Our religion is based completly on faith. It's not like we can prove any of this stuff, just like nobody can disprove it either. Our teaching also say that our faith should be like that of a child, we shouldn't question it. So far my faith hasn't failed me. I have never considered the idea that their is no God. I see to much around me that couldn't have occured by accident.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:47 pm

spot;782414 wrote: The only thing we need to agree, then, is that this God of yours is evil. At that point I can believe in Him just like you do, but He can't force His will on me without my consent if He's good. If you insist that God is good then He can't both exist and behave as you describe.

I wouldn't say He's evil. It more like a father trying to get his children to follow his rules. You wouldn't say your parents are evil for trying to make you behave when you were a child would you? God thinks of us as His children.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:03 pm

Hope6;782432 wrote: I wouldn't say He's evil. It more like a father trying to get his children to follow his rules. You wouldn't say your parents are evil for trying to make you behave when you were a child would you? God thinks of us as His children.

We're not discussing parental correction, we're discussing eternal torment at the hands of Satan. That is so far away from anything that any parent could remotely do and be considered good that your parental correction comparison doesn't exist. I did not ever agree that in exchange for life God could demand my obedience. By all means he can take His gift of life back any time he wants to - I didn't ask for it in the first place and I didn't ever want it, it was forced on me - but He can't torture me for eternity and be a good God.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:10 pm

God wouldn't be torturing you for eternity, that would be Satans job. And it's so easy not to be in that position. All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:14 pm

The judgement isn't Satan's, it's God's. It's God's choice that I be tortured for all eternity and he has no right to pass that sentence on me. I never contracted with him that I would be obedient. I refuse to recognize that the court has jurisdiction over me. I owe God nothing because I have never accepted anything from Him.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:20 pm

spot;782352 wrote: He didn't ask my permission to inflict all this life and suffering and misery on me, I had no choice at all about that, so I have no contract with Him promising to do anything at all. I can't stop Him from judging me and condemning me to eternal torture if that's what He insists on doing but I refuse to applaud that as goodness. It's sheer evil force. If He wants my cooperation then He has to make a bargain with me that I agree to.

You keep talking about you didn't ask to be born, well none of us asked to be born, but we're here so we should try to make the best of it.

As for the eternal torment described in the bible some bible scholars believe its not literal, I heard one description that I think sounds reasonable, it says that the torment is not actual fire but it is a replaying of sorts of all the sins that someone committed in their life and all the hurt and bad feelings that they caused other people they will feel themselves.

Post by **spot** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:46 pm

I would consider eternal consciousness of any sort to be torture regardless of what was being done to me.

I'm under no obligation to make the best of anything, I didn't ask for life. I maintain it because I recognise a moral duty to my neighbour not to throw it away but I'm furious at having it forced on me in the first place. The sooner it's taken back the better.

I have never given any consent to this imposition of life, I have never accepted any gift or reward from God. He has no right to judge me or to sentence me, because I have never accepted any benefit from Him. If he insists on punishing me he is unjust and wicked.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:04 pm

spot;782477 wrote: I would consider eternal consciousness of any sort to be torture regardless of what was being done to me.

I'm under no obligation to make the best of anything, I didn't ask for life. I maintain it because I recognise a moral duty to my neighbour not to throw it away but I'm furious at having it forced on me in the first place. The sooner it's taken back the better.

I have never given any consent to this imposition of life, I have never accepted any gift or reward from God. He has no right to judge me or to sentence me, because I have never accepted any benefit from Him. If he insists on punishing me he is unjust and wicked.

Would you not consider your children a gift? Just a question.

moonpie · Post by **moonpie** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:14 pm

I am on the fence, so to speak. I want to believe, yet something keeps holding me back.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:52 pm

fuzzy butt;782500 wrote: I don't consider my kids a gift. My choice to lay with a man and my responsiblility there after. It's simple genetics and biology.

some believe their children are gifts some believe it's a punishment for past sins and some believe it's God trying to teach them something about themselves. Either way that's not a Christian belief.

Ok I see your point. But I will continue to believe that my kids are gifts (and sometimes punishment).

flopstock · Post by **flopstock** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:08 pm

Hope6;782324 wrote: I don't think you have to have the brain of a six year old to think of something like this, it seems to me everyone would be a little nervous about what really happens when we die. I'm looking forward to spending my afterlife in heaven and I have no doubts that it exists.

Personally, I have all I can deal with now. I don't give a thought to what happens when I die, except to hope that my kids miss me in a good way, and that everyone I feel wronged by in the present spends the rest of their life being sorry for not having made it right with me while they had the chance.

:D

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:16 pm

Jester;782506 wrote: I read this Spot and I laughed. I'm sorry to express it that way but you sound like a small child stomping your foot and saying, I wont! I wont!

The created doesnt have power to contract with the creator, the creator sets the parameters. He does not need cooperation. He will carry out His plan as He ses fit.

I love Hope's first post.

Lays it on the line.

Anyone can be an athiest, that does not change the fact that God is.

Thank you so much! That's what I've been trying to say all night, you put it so well

lovesagoodgirl · Post by **lovesagoodgirl** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:17 pm

Huh. You raise a good point. I use to be atheist and honestly i didn't give a crap. I thought a loving God would not do that to me even if he exsisted. However, since i believed he did not, i didn't care.