Hoss:-6
Thank you for that last response.
I want to fill you in a few points. They are facts and nothing else. I am 64 and soon to be 65. I have been a Christian all of my life or perhaps one might say from when I could understand anything. My experiences in the fundamentalist fold were anything but positive. I had a choice I could have become a Buddhist or something else. However, I felt that there was truth in a book of some 2000 years so I proceeded to university where I began to realize that I had been suckered.
I've been trained formally in Bible translation in both Hebrew and Greek, biblical history, interpretation, philosophy and the history of the Bible as a book. I have been taught by some of the world's recognized top scholars who are also Christians. I have studied informally on my own for years, some 45. I continue to study theology and interpretation at the Vancouver school of theology.
I am very comfortable and encouraged by my studies. I have complete trust in God. The word used in Greek is "pistis" which has been translated for years as belief but we now know it is better translated as "trust". That this means is that it is not correct belief that is required but trust. If it was correct belief consider the fact that we have some 22 000 Christian denominations around the world many of which think they have the correct and only way. In addition we have all of the other great faiths with their great variety of "denominations". Who is to say they, and they alone have the correct and only way.
I have come to the point where I believe that all of the great faiths worship the one Ultimate Reality. God has a thousand names; Yahweh, Elohim, Allah, Vishnu, Shiva, the Great Spirit. We all worship the same God. Yes, we have different concepts as humans but since there is only one God we are all worshiping Him/Her.
I have come to realize that God has spoken to all of these folks but He could only do so in a way they would understand and culture and history has a lot to do with this Thus I recognize that the Holy Spirit has given knowledge to many within the parameters they could understand. As such I recognize the validity of all the great faiths. I do not have to accept all their dogmas and doctrines as they do not have to accept mine. The fact is they are seeking the same God. Thus I am a pluralist.
I am a Christian by virtue of where I was born but also because I make a conscious decision after much study, prayer, meditation, discussion etc. to be a Christian. I do not buy the man made doctrine of Biblical inerrancy which is a child created by the reformation and is not to be found in the Bible accept by guessing and human thought. I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ. I have been led by the Holy Spirit to where I am today and trust God without question. Do I have all the answers? Of course not. I would be a fool to even think I do or even come close. I have been called otherwise but that is immaterial to me. They will have to answer for their own judgments.
The value in a discussion such as the "garden" is not that we convince others to see it our way, a useless exercise, but that we can share ideas and build understanding. The one church on this island that does not interact with the others is like the proverbial ostrich. It has its head buried in the sand which is too bad.
We must each follow the path we have chosen. It is my hope that all folks can learn to respect each other. One thing that hinders this hope is the, abominable exclusivism that we find in all the faiths including Christianity. This exclusivism is totally contrary to the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
ronin explained well why he turned from Christianity. To put is simply it was that damned exclusivism which is totally divisive and arrogant.
Let us discuss and share in mutual respect.
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
It is not unusual for threads to get sidetracked. Why not if the topic is interesting and important? If the author of the thread objects than one can always start a new one. Usually all the ideas are related in one way or another and eventually it gets back on topic. ie The nature of the BIble is an important question when discussing homosexuality. It could get awfully boring otherwise. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is not unusual for threads to get sidetracked. Why not if the topic is interesting and important? If the author of the thread objects than one can always start a new one. Usually all the ideas are related in one way or another and eventually it gets back on topic. ie The nature of the BIble is an important question when discussing homosexuality. It could get awfully boring otherwise. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Acc:-6
What you are saying to me is that it is OK for the straight person to enjoy life including his/her body and sexuality but if you are unlucky enough to be born gay, a product of God's creation, than you have to live a sad and morose life without the joy of your body or sexuality. God is fair and just?
Such an attitude completely ignores the fact that much of our behavious are governed by homrmones over which we do not have control. That is kind of like blaming a teenager for having and "evil" thought and getting and erection becaus his body produces testosterone. We are told that God saw all that He/She had made and it was very good.
Perhaps it is typical of "I've made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts."
Shalom
Ted:-6
What you are saying to me is that it is OK for the straight person to enjoy life including his/her body and sexuality but if you are unlucky enough to be born gay, a product of God's creation, than you have to live a sad and morose life without the joy of your body or sexuality. God is fair and just?
Such an attitude completely ignores the fact that much of our behavious are governed by homrmones over which we do not have control. That is kind of like blaming a teenager for having and "evil" thought and getting and erection becaus his body produces testosterone. We are told that God saw all that He/She had made and it was very good.
Perhaps it is typical of "I've made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts."
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
Sorry about that. I was not trying to be personal concerning yourself. I was basically making general statements.
BTW I too love that quote from the Bible. It is wonderful and came out in the sermon of two weeks ago.
I too, do not think ronin was being personal. He was simply stating why he is not a Christian. I've seen his point of view happen so many times, in fact hundreds and it is that point that I am most saddened by.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Sorry about that. I was not trying to be personal concerning yourself. I was basically making general statements.
BTW I too love that quote from the Bible. It is wonderful and came out in the sermon of two weeks ago.
I too, do not think ronin was being personal. He was simply stating why he is not a Christian. I've seen his point of view happen so many times, in fact hundreds and it is that point that I am most saddened by.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
I think you make an important point in "how they were designed". If these people were born that way, a modern science now has shown than they were made that way before birth. The homosexual in brief is born with a female like brain as compared to the average male. They did not choose their brain, They developed that way.
How then does one respond to that. Are we to blame them for reacting to the very strong drive that is sexuality.
You see it is not abnormal. It is quite a normal function is approximately 10% of all animal life on earth including human beings.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think you make an important point in "how they were designed". If these people were born that way, a modern science now has shown than they were made that way before birth. The homosexual in brief is born with a female like brain as compared to the average male. They did not choose their brain, They developed that way.
How then does one respond to that. Are we to blame them for reacting to the very strong drive that is sexuality.
You see it is not abnormal. It is quite a normal function is approximately 10% of all animal life on earth including human beings.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
Don't worry about being on or off topic. If necessary we can start another thread.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Don't worry about being on or off topic. If necessary we can start another thread.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
I do not attack individuals on a personal level but I do attack and respond to ideas. I think it is important for you to keep that in mind in all of the forums. In fact, please don't take offense as none intended, the only ones to attack me personally in all the years I've been on forums have been "Christians".
Shalom
Ted:-6
I do not attack individuals on a personal level but I do attack and respond to ideas. I think it is important for you to keep that in mind in all of the forums. In fact, please don't take offense as none intended, the only ones to attack me personally in all the years I've been on forums have been "Christians".
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
Comment by all means. Nothing is closed.
You may disagree and that is fine. The medical profession and the scientific community do not agree. The latest research shows that the homosexual brain is structured like the female brain as opposed to the average male brain.
I think the use of the word "unnatural" is misplaced. Homosexual behaviour is quite natural among 10% of the animal population including humans. A better word is perhaps uncommon or less prevalent.
Making excuses for their behaviour? Well that certainly is a viewpoint but I don't agree. The male of any species can have erections without any apparent cause. They can have "evil" lewd thoughts automatically. These are both caused by hormones. I totally disagree they are either evil or lewd. They are perfectly natural human responses. We are not inherently evil. The idea of original sin is simply a non starter.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Comment by all means. Nothing is closed.
You may disagree and that is fine. The medical profession and the scientific community do not agree. The latest research shows that the homosexual brain is structured like the female brain as opposed to the average male brain.
I think the use of the word "unnatural" is misplaced. Homosexual behaviour is quite natural among 10% of the animal population including humans. A better word is perhaps uncommon or less prevalent.
Making excuses for their behaviour? Well that certainly is a viewpoint but I don't agree. The male of any species can have erections without any apparent cause. They can have "evil" lewd thoughts automatically. These are both caused by hormones. I totally disagree they are either evil or lewd. They are perfectly natural human responses. We are not inherently evil. The idea of original sin is simply a non starter.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
I have not communicated with your father. Why would you ask that question? He or anyone else is free to attack my ideas and me personally if they so wish. I'm used to personal attacks. They speak more about the attacker than they do anyone else.
You are quite free to attack any idea but be prepared to get a response. That is the nature of discussion and debate. There is usually more than one side to an argument. You presented your ideas and I disagreed. That is the nature of a discussion or debate.
Please learn not to take such discussions personally as they are not meant that way.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have not communicated with your father. Why would you ask that question? He or anyone else is free to attack my ideas and me personally if they so wish. I'm used to personal attacks. They speak more about the attacker than they do anyone else.
You are quite free to attack any idea but be prepared to get a response. That is the nature of discussion and debate. There is usually more than one side to an argument. You presented your ideas and I disagreed. That is the nature of a discussion or debate.
Please learn not to take such discussions personally as they are not meant that way.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
But we are evolutionary animals. The proof of such is now beyond theory in the scientific field. But who is prepared to say that God could not have used evolution as the method of creation. That would be trying to limit God or make Him in one's own image.
It is our consciousness that has placed us above the rest of the animal sphere. If you cut an animal it bleeds. If you do an autopsy generally it has the same organs as we do.
As I see it when one's faith contradicts the reality of the world around them they are indeed on very shaky ground. I saw a university student have a nervous breakdown when faced with the scientific reality of the world. She had been raised in a strict Christian family and simply couldn't handle reality.
My trust in God does not contradict reality it takes it into account.
Shalom
Ted:-6
But we are evolutionary animals. The proof of such is now beyond theory in the scientific field. But who is prepared to say that God could not have used evolution as the method of creation. That would be trying to limit God or make Him in one's own image.
It is our consciousness that has placed us above the rest of the animal sphere. If you cut an animal it bleeds. If you do an autopsy generally it has the same organs as we do.
As I see it when one's faith contradicts the reality of the world around them they are indeed on very shaky ground. I saw a university student have a nervous breakdown when faced with the scientific reality of the world. She had been raised in a strict Christian family and simply couldn't handle reality.
My trust in God does not contradict reality it takes it into account.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
Now I understand. No, your father did not attack me. He recognizes me as a Christian but disagrees with me.
You have a decent father there, a wonderful man. Though we disagree I do have the greatest respect for him.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Now I understand. No, your father did not attack me. He recognizes me as a Christian but disagrees with me.
You have a decent father there, a wonderful man. Though we disagree I do have the greatest respect for him.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
Whom do you think allowed the scientists to make the discoveries they've made? You speak of smaller parts of atoms so you accept that science. On what basis do you reject the other scientific discoveries?
I too see all of the cosmos as a miracle. Life is a miracle.
I certainly do not put the Bible ahead of science in the scientific field. I do put it ahead of the scientific field in wisdom which is not part of science. The Bible is a religious book it is not a history book or a science book. They did not understand history as we do nor did they have much if any knowledge of science.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Whom do you think allowed the scientists to make the discoveries they've made? You speak of smaller parts of atoms so you accept that science. On what basis do you reject the other scientific discoveries?
I too see all of the cosmos as a miracle. Life is a miracle.
I certainly do not put the Bible ahead of science in the scientific field. I do put it ahead of the scientific field in wisdom which is not part of science. The Bible is a religious book it is not a history book or a science book. They did not understand history as we do nor did they have much if any knowledge of science.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
As I see it you are very much trying to limit God and make Him/Her fit your understanding. You are saying in effect that God did a very lousy job of creating men; that He created a bunch of imbeciles. How could the omnipotent God do such a lousy job. Your God is indeed "too small".
Shalom
Ted:-6
As I see it you are very much trying to limit God and make Him/Her fit your understanding. You are saying in effect that God did a very lousy job of creating men; that He created a bunch of imbeciles. How could the omnipotent God do such a lousy job. Your God is indeed "too small".
Shalom
Ted:-6
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Accountable
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Ted;966526 wrote: Acc:-6
What you are saying to me is that it is OK for the straight person to enjoy life including his/her body and sexuality but if you are unlucky enough to be born gay, a product of God's creation, than you have to live a sad and morose life without the joy of your body or sexuality. God is fair and just?
Such an attitude completely ignores the fact that much of our behavious are governed by homrmones over which we do not have control. That is kind of like blaming a teenager for having and "evil" thought and getting and erection becaus his body produces testosterone. We are told that God saw all that He/She had made and it was very good.
Perhaps it is typical of "I've made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts."
Shalom
Ted:-6You read alot into my post that isn't there, but your conclusions are logical considering the context. Also, it seems that your first paragraph mixes what is socially acceptable and what is acceptable to God - two things that could not be more unrelated.
What I am saying is that we have control over our behavior, despite our hormones. If that were untrue, rape would be so common it would not even be a crime. Hormones do not control our behaviors, they greatly influence our desires. A teenager having an erection is not a teenager having intercourse. There's a difference.
These same hormones combined with environment that effect whether a man is attracted to a woman who is tall and slim, younger and shy, older and outspoken, etc, also effect whether a woman is attracted to a teenage boy, or an adult is attracted to young child of the same or opposite sex, a person is attracted to another of the same sex, or even whether someone is attracted to a particular type of animal. This is fact.
It is also fact that these hormones and environment do not force us to act on our desires, regardless of our attractions. Of course there are those few extremely rare exceptions whose chemical imbalances are so extreme that they can't control them. These people are easy to spot and hospitalize. For the rest, they are in control of their behaviors.
My purpose for posting here is simply to point out that desire is different from action. Is homosexual behavior wrong? If it is, then people can refrain from it. They've done it for centuries. Is sexual attraction to a person of the same sex wrong? If it is then God Himself screwed up somewhere.
Does God consider homosexuality a sin? I really hope not. I truly hope that King James' committees or whoever was responsible for putting those passages in the Bible made a mistake. I have family at stake in this.
What you are saying to me is that it is OK for the straight person to enjoy life including his/her body and sexuality but if you are unlucky enough to be born gay, a product of God's creation, than you have to live a sad and morose life without the joy of your body or sexuality. God is fair and just?
Such an attitude completely ignores the fact that much of our behavious are governed by homrmones over which we do not have control. That is kind of like blaming a teenager for having and "evil" thought and getting and erection becaus his body produces testosterone. We are told that God saw all that He/She had made and it was very good.
Perhaps it is typical of "I've made up my mind so don't confuse me with the facts."
Shalom
Ted:-6You read alot into my post that isn't there, but your conclusions are logical considering the context. Also, it seems that your first paragraph mixes what is socially acceptable and what is acceptable to God - two things that could not be more unrelated.
What I am saying is that we have control over our behavior, despite our hormones. If that were untrue, rape would be so common it would not even be a crime. Hormones do not control our behaviors, they greatly influence our desires. A teenager having an erection is not a teenager having intercourse. There's a difference.
These same hormones combined with environment that effect whether a man is attracted to a woman who is tall and slim, younger and shy, older and outspoken, etc, also effect whether a woman is attracted to a teenage boy, or an adult is attracted to young child of the same or opposite sex, a person is attracted to another of the same sex, or even whether someone is attracted to a particular type of animal. This is fact.
It is also fact that these hormones and environment do not force us to act on our desires, regardless of our attractions. Of course there are those few extremely rare exceptions whose chemical imbalances are so extreme that they can't control them. These people are easy to spot and hospitalize. For the rest, they are in control of their behaviors.
My purpose for posting here is simply to point out that desire is different from action. Is homosexual behavior wrong? If it is, then people can refrain from it. They've done it for centuries. Is sexual attraction to a person of the same sex wrong? If it is then God Himself screwed up somewhere.
Does God consider homosexuality a sin? I really hope not. I truly hope that King James' committees or whoever was responsible for putting those passages in the Bible made a mistake. I have family at stake in this.
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss;966539 wrote: Am I alllowed to comment here? Please forgive the intrusion if not and please let me know.
You are always allowed to comment. Good to meet you, btw. I consider your dad a good friend. :-6
You are always allowed to comment. Good to meet you, btw. I consider your dad a good friend. :-6
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twistwoods
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Are you lot still concerning yourselves with trying to read God's mind? Don't you ever get bored with it? I know I do! I thought this site was going to be interesting but it isn't - it's BORING!
For goodness sake, leave God's decisions to him and don't try to make them for him!!! You know, I really believe that what some of you are doing is a sin. To say that you know who is saved and who is not, is setting yourself up as equal or superior to God and it was for precisely that reason that Satan was expelled from heaven!!!
Wouldn't it be ironic if some gay people got to heaven and some of those who condemn them failed to get in? But let's be absolutely clear about this - I am not saying that will happen. Nor am I saying that I want that to happen - I really am content to leave those decisions to God. I am merely saying that it is a possibility and one which everyone who contributes to threads like this one should seriously consider!
Why is it that so many of you are so blinkered that you cannot see what is right in front of your eyes? All sins are equally abhorent to God and yet Jesus has assured us that, even though God hates our sins, he loves all of us - even though we are wretched sinners! So, even if homosexuality is a sin (and I'm not saying that it is - or that it isn't - that is for God to decide) gay people are no better and no worse than anyone else. It follows, therefore, that God loves gay people every bit as much as he loves the rest of us. If you don't like it, too bad! Get over it and move on!!!!
So now, is anyone going to start an interesting thread or shall I search for a better, more interesting site? :-5
God bless.
For goodness sake, leave God's decisions to him and don't try to make them for him!!! You know, I really believe that what some of you are doing is a sin. To say that you know who is saved and who is not, is setting yourself up as equal or superior to God and it was for precisely that reason that Satan was expelled from heaven!!!
Wouldn't it be ironic if some gay people got to heaven and some of those who condemn them failed to get in? But let's be absolutely clear about this - I am not saying that will happen. Nor am I saying that I want that to happen - I really am content to leave those decisions to God. I am merely saying that it is a possibility and one which everyone who contributes to threads like this one should seriously consider!
Why is it that so many of you are so blinkered that you cannot see what is right in front of your eyes? All sins are equally abhorent to God and yet Jesus has assured us that, even though God hates our sins, he loves all of us - even though we are wretched sinners! So, even if homosexuality is a sin (and I'm not saying that it is - or that it isn't - that is for God to decide) gay people are no better and no worse than anyone else. It follows, therefore, that God loves gay people every bit as much as he loves the rest of us. If you don't like it, too bad! Get over it and move on!!!!
So now, is anyone going to start an interesting thread or shall I search for a better, more interesting site? :-5
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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twistwoods
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
JAB;967079 wrote: If this one doesn't interest you, then be my guest... The 'start new topic' button is available for anyone's use.
I had a bet with my husband that it wouldn't take long for people to tell me to go fly a kite! Turns out I was right. :rolleyes:
The reason I don't feel the need to start many new threads myself is because I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God. Sadly, this topic does not seem to interest people enough for them to respond when I try to start a new thread, therefore I find it easier to respond to other people who are spreading discord and division instead of harmony and Christian love.
Why is it that so many Christians seem to find it so easy to love God but so difficult to love their neighbour? (Hey, that could be the subject of a new thread. I think I'll give it a try.)
God bless.
I had a bet with my husband that it wouldn't take long for people to tell me to go fly a kite! Turns out I was right. :rolleyes:
The reason I don't feel the need to start many new threads myself is because I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God. Sadly, this topic does not seem to interest people enough for them to respond when I try to start a new thread, therefore I find it easier to respond to other people who are spreading discord and division instead of harmony and Christian love.
Why is it that so many Christians seem to find it so easy to love God but so difficult to love their neighbour? (Hey, that could be the subject of a new thread. I think I'll give it a try.)
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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Accountable
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
twistwoods;967069 wrote: Are you lot still concerning yourselves with trying to read God's mind? Don't you ever get bored with it? I know I do! I thought this site was going to be interesting but it isn't - it's BORING!
*snip*
So now, is anyone going to start an interesting thread or shall I search for a better, more interesting site? :-5
God bless.
twistwoods;967118 wrote: I had a bet with my husband that it wouldn't take long for people to tell me to go fly a kite! Turns out I was right. :rolleyes:
[...]I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God.A really laser-focused specific calling, I'm guessing. :-2
*snip*
So now, is anyone going to start an interesting thread or shall I search for a better, more interesting site? :-5
God bless.
twistwoods;967118 wrote: I had a bet with my husband that it wouldn't take long for people to tell me to go fly a kite! Turns out I was right. :rolleyes:
[...]I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God.A really laser-focused specific calling, I'm guessing. :-2
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss;967260 wrote: Me too! :wah: He told me you are retired AF NCO and a 'good man'. For my dad to say that about anyone is a great endorsement.
We lived on TAFB for a while; I liked it better than the Army posts we lived on. The house we lived in recently burned down. I did not get to see it burn but after I saw what was left. Good thing no one was in it when it went.Yup. Master Sergeant & just under 21 years. Everybody in the military agrees the AF has it the best when it comes to facilities, living arrangements, etc. They say it's because the Army & others have to live too rough during wartime, so to give too much at peacetime would be too demoralizing a change. :yh_eyebro
We lived on TAFB for a while; I liked it better than the Army posts we lived on. The house we lived in recently burned down. I did not get to see it burn but after I saw what was left. Good thing no one was in it when it went.Yup. Master Sergeant & just under 21 years. Everybody in the military agrees the AF has it the best when it comes to facilities, living arrangements, etc. They say it's because the Army & others have to live too rough during wartime, so to give too much at peacetime would be too demoralizing a change. :yh_eyebro
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twistwoods
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Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss;967271 wrote: I completely disagree. This site is far from boring period. It's the best place I have ever visited on the internet.
The reason I said it is boring is because all the Christian sites I have visited (and I have visited dozens of them) seem to get bogged down on this same topic and, once it has been raised, they seem unable to move on. Also, I think it says more about their own prejudices than about the Christian faith.
In answer to your question - yes, the Bible does say homosexuality is a sin. In answer to the question you didn't ask - no, I am not saying I know better than the Bible. Never as long as I live (unless, perhaps, in a moment of weakness when under torture) will you hear me deliberately contradict the Bible and set myself up the equal of God and capable of making that type of pronouncement!
On the other hand, unlike many Christian fundamentalists, I do not accept that the Bible is the infallible 'Word of God'. I believe that, as St John tells us, Jesus is the Word of God - 'the Word made flesh'.
I believe that the Bible has been inspired by God but it was not dictated by him and so the writers of the Bible (and there were many of them, over many generations) brought their own prejudices to what they wrote. As far as I know, the only part of the Bible which was actually dictated - word for word - by God were the commandments and, as every reader of the Bible knows, there were many more than ten commandments.
It occurs to me that, if this is the only part of the Bible that was dictated by God, this is the only part of the Bible that is infallible and yet I know many, very devout, Christians who consistently break one or more of the 'minor' commandments - such as the one which forbids the eating or drinking of blood! (Until his retirement, my cousin was a Methodist minister and yet he liked nothing better than a few slices of black pudding with his cooked breakfast and, as everyone knows, black pudding is made mostly of congealed blood!)
So, because I do not believe that the rest of the Bible is infallible I believe I am allowed to question it. I believe that is one of the reasons why God gave me a brain. So yes, I do question whether homosexuality is a sin but I do not question God's right to determine what is a sin and what is not. If God has decreed that it is a sin, then I believe it is a sin. If he did not - if it has only found its way into the Bible through the prejudices of the writers - then I am inclined to think that it is not a sin. As God has not revealed this to me in person, I choose to sit on the fence about this matter while I wait to be told. In the meantime, I choose to make no judgement but to continue to obey the two commandments that Jesus gave us in person - to love God and to love my neighbour - whether he is straight or gay!
And, finally, just in case anyone is in any doubt, I would like to repeat what I have said before - No! I am NOT gay! As someone once said to me, 'I am straight but not narrow!'
God bless.
The reason I said it is boring is because all the Christian sites I have visited (and I have visited dozens of them) seem to get bogged down on this same topic and, once it has been raised, they seem unable to move on. Also, I think it says more about their own prejudices than about the Christian faith.
In answer to your question - yes, the Bible does say homosexuality is a sin. In answer to the question you didn't ask - no, I am not saying I know better than the Bible. Never as long as I live (unless, perhaps, in a moment of weakness when under torture) will you hear me deliberately contradict the Bible and set myself up the equal of God and capable of making that type of pronouncement!
On the other hand, unlike many Christian fundamentalists, I do not accept that the Bible is the infallible 'Word of God'. I believe that, as St John tells us, Jesus is the Word of God - 'the Word made flesh'.
I believe that the Bible has been inspired by God but it was not dictated by him and so the writers of the Bible (and there were many of them, over many generations) brought their own prejudices to what they wrote. As far as I know, the only part of the Bible which was actually dictated - word for word - by God were the commandments and, as every reader of the Bible knows, there were many more than ten commandments.
It occurs to me that, if this is the only part of the Bible that was dictated by God, this is the only part of the Bible that is infallible and yet I know many, very devout, Christians who consistently break one or more of the 'minor' commandments - such as the one which forbids the eating or drinking of blood! (Until his retirement, my cousin was a Methodist minister and yet he liked nothing better than a few slices of black pudding with his cooked breakfast and, as everyone knows, black pudding is made mostly of congealed blood!)
So, because I do not believe that the rest of the Bible is infallible I believe I am allowed to question it. I believe that is one of the reasons why God gave me a brain. So yes, I do question whether homosexuality is a sin but I do not question God's right to determine what is a sin and what is not. If God has decreed that it is a sin, then I believe it is a sin. If he did not - if it has only found its way into the Bible through the prejudices of the writers - then I am inclined to think that it is not a sin. As God has not revealed this to me in person, I choose to sit on the fence about this matter while I wait to be told. In the meantime, I choose to make no judgement but to continue to obey the two commandments that Jesus gave us in person - to love God and to love my neighbour - whether he is straight or gay!
And, finally, just in case anyone is in any doubt, I would like to repeat what I have said before - No! I am NOT gay! As someone once said to me, 'I am straight but not narrow!'
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Accountable;967411 wrote: A really laser-focused specific calling, I'm guessing. :-2
It is sometimes hard to tell whether or not people are being sarcastic when they write something and this is no exception so forgive me if I am misunderstanding your reply.
I am guessing that you are being sarcastic and disparaging. If so, I can only say that I think it is a pity that you should take that attitude. But, hey, I can take it! I've heard it all before.
I think people think I am trying to claim some glory for myself - trying to say that I am special in some way - but nothing could be farther from the truth. Do you really think I want to spend all my free time arguing with people who mock me? I have three wonderful grandchildren and what I really want to do is to spend more time with them but, because of a series of events over which I had no control, I really believe that this is what God is asking me to do.
I am absolutely sure there are thousands (or maybe even millions) of people who could do a better job than I can do and who would enjoy it more than I do but, for some reason which I honestly don't understand, God has asked me to do it. So what am I supposed to do? Should I say, 'Not me, Lord!' or should I say, 'Not my will, but thy will be done'? What would you do if you really believed, from the bottom of your heart and your innermost being, that God was calling you to do something?
Believe me, I pray about it constantly because I have so many doubts - not about God but about my own abilities - or lack of them - and my own worthiness - or lack of it!
So please, if you really love God, don't dismiss me as a crank - PRAY FOR ME because I really need your prayers.
God bless.
It is sometimes hard to tell whether or not people are being sarcastic when they write something and this is no exception so forgive me if I am misunderstanding your reply.
I am guessing that you are being sarcastic and disparaging. If so, I can only say that I think it is a pity that you should take that attitude. But, hey, I can take it! I've heard it all before.
I think people think I am trying to claim some glory for myself - trying to say that I am special in some way - but nothing could be farther from the truth. Do you really think I want to spend all my free time arguing with people who mock me? I have three wonderful grandchildren and what I really want to do is to spend more time with them but, because of a series of events over which I had no control, I really believe that this is what God is asking me to do.
I am absolutely sure there are thousands (or maybe even millions) of people who could do a better job than I can do and who would enjoy it more than I do but, for some reason which I honestly don't understand, God has asked me to do it. So what am I supposed to do? Should I say, 'Not me, Lord!' or should I say, 'Not my will, but thy will be done'? What would you do if you really believed, from the bottom of your heart and your innermost being, that God was calling you to do something?
Believe me, I pray about it constantly because I have so many doubts - not about God but about my own abilities - or lack of them - and my own worthiness - or lack of it!
So please, if you really love God, don't dismiss me as a crank - PRAY FOR ME because I really need your prayers.
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
twistwoods;967665 wrote: It is sometimes hard to tell whether or not people are being sarcastic when they write something and this is no exception so forgive me if I am misunderstanding your reply.
I am guessing that you are being sarcastic and disparaging. If so, I can only say that I think it is a pity that you should take that attitude. But, hey, I can take it! I've heard it all before. You read right. I was pointing out that you come wading in here full of complaints and disparaging remarks of your own, not having contributing one syllable yourself, then wrap it up with "I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God." I enjoy irony, and figure you must have a really specific calling if it includes ostracizing your audience for an intro.
I am guessing that you are being sarcastic and disparaging. If so, I can only say that I think it is a pity that you should take that attitude. But, hey, I can take it! I've heard it all before. You read right. I was pointing out that you come wading in here full of complaints and disparaging remarks of your own, not having contributing one syllable yourself, then wrap it up with "I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God." I enjoy irony, and figure you must have a really specific calling if it includes ostracizing your audience for an intro.
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Accountable;967671 wrote: You read right. I was pointing out that you come wading in here full of complaints and disparaging remarks of your own, not having contributing one syllable yourself, then wrap it up with "I believe I have a very specific calling to witness to the love of God." I enjoy irony, and figure you must have a really specific calling if it includes ostracizing your audience for an intro.
I didn't come wading in full of complaints and it is not true that I did not contribute a syllable. I introduced myself very respectfully, joined in a couple of threads so that people could understand where I was coming from and then I waited to see if I could see the love of God shining out from my screen because that is what I expect from Christians. And I waited and waited and waited, looking in on the forum at least once or twice every day.
But do you know what I saw? I saw that the most popular thread every day - right up there at the top of the page - was the the thread that told 10% of the world's population that if they continued to follow the instincts that God gave them - instincts that they had not chosen - they could never get to heaven! Why was it so popular? I honestly believe that some (not all) Christians revel in telling people 'Hey, I'm better than you! I'm going to go to heaven and you can never get there!' (And, believe me, I knew a lay preacher who used to say almost those exact words from the pulpit every Sunday!)
In Jesus's day, Samaritans were believed to be so sinful that the Jews would have nothing to do with them. Their particular sin? They believed in the same God as the Jews and most of the Jewish laws, but they also believed that it was lawful to build a temple outside Jerusalem! To the Jews, this was a terrible sin. And yet, when Jesus told the parable of the good neighbour, who did he make the hero of the story? A Samaritan, of course! Why? Because, even though this man was (in the eyes of the Jews) a terrible sinner, he was the person who demonstrated the greatest love and, as St Paul later said, ' these three remain, faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.'
You see, I really believe that God does not judge by the same criteria that we use. I believe he looks into the hearts of people and judges by the love he finds there.
I do not believe I have been arrogant - although I admit to being deliberately provocative. If you believe I have been arrogant or insensitive, then I really do apologise but I stand by every word I have written.
God bless.
I didn't come wading in full of complaints and it is not true that I did not contribute a syllable. I introduced myself very respectfully, joined in a couple of threads so that people could understand where I was coming from and then I waited to see if I could see the love of God shining out from my screen because that is what I expect from Christians. And I waited and waited and waited, looking in on the forum at least once or twice every day.
But do you know what I saw? I saw that the most popular thread every day - right up there at the top of the page - was the the thread that told 10% of the world's population that if they continued to follow the instincts that God gave them - instincts that they had not chosen - they could never get to heaven! Why was it so popular? I honestly believe that some (not all) Christians revel in telling people 'Hey, I'm better than you! I'm going to go to heaven and you can never get there!' (And, believe me, I knew a lay preacher who used to say almost those exact words from the pulpit every Sunday!)
In Jesus's day, Samaritans were believed to be so sinful that the Jews would have nothing to do with them. Their particular sin? They believed in the same God as the Jews and most of the Jewish laws, but they also believed that it was lawful to build a temple outside Jerusalem! To the Jews, this was a terrible sin. And yet, when Jesus told the parable of the good neighbour, who did he make the hero of the story? A Samaritan, of course! Why? Because, even though this man was (in the eyes of the Jews) a terrible sinner, he was the person who demonstrated the greatest love and, as St Paul later said, ' these three remain, faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.'
You see, I really believe that God does not judge by the same criteria that we use. I believe he looks into the hearts of people and judges by the love he finds there.
I do not believe I have been arrogant - although I admit to being deliberately provocative. If you believe I have been arrogant or insensitive, then I really do apologise but I stand by every word I have written.
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
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twistwoods
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
[QUOTE=Hoss;968016]Twistwoods,
Thats your mindset, you believe that God created a person to be the exact opposite of what he intended. How is that biblical? You believe exactly like the scientists who say that we were not created in the image of God, but evolved and are evolving.
QUOTE]
No, no, no, no, NO!!!! You are quite wrong!!! 100% wrong! In fact, you could not be more wrong!
Please do not tell me what I believe - ask me!
I believe that God created everything that exists. Every planet, star, black hole and comet. I believe that he created every mountain, sea and lake. I believe he created every leaf and every blade of grass. I believe that he created every lion and tiger, every bird and bee and every man and woman who has ever lived. And since he created everyone and everything, it follows that he must have created gay men and women as well as straight ones.
Of course, I do not know why he chose to create some people straight and others gay but I believe that he did! I believe that it is all part of his plan but, as yet, he has not chosen to reveal his entire plan to little ole me so I have to take everything I see as being part of what God intended for this world. It must be part of his plan because no one else could have done it! Who else do you know who has the power to create something as wonderful as a human being? Even Satan does not have that kind of power - the only power he possesses is that which God allows him!
So, as I believe that the whole of the human race was made by God, I also believe it is my duty to love them and that, for me, is the essence of being a Christian. I am not called to judge people - only to love them! After all, doesn't the Bible say, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' ?
God bless.
Thats your mindset, you believe that God created a person to be the exact opposite of what he intended. How is that biblical? You believe exactly like the scientists who say that we were not created in the image of God, but evolved and are evolving.
QUOTE]
No, no, no, no, NO!!!! You are quite wrong!!! 100% wrong! In fact, you could not be more wrong!
Please do not tell me what I believe - ask me!
I believe that God created everything that exists. Every planet, star, black hole and comet. I believe that he created every mountain, sea and lake. I believe he created every leaf and every blade of grass. I believe that he created every lion and tiger, every bird and bee and every man and woman who has ever lived. And since he created everyone and everything, it follows that he must have created gay men and women as well as straight ones.
Of course, I do not know why he chose to create some people straight and others gay but I believe that he did! I believe that it is all part of his plan but, as yet, he has not chosen to reveal his entire plan to little ole me so I have to take everything I see as being part of what God intended for this world. It must be part of his plan because no one else could have done it! Who else do you know who has the power to create something as wonderful as a human being? Even Satan does not have that kind of power - the only power he possesses is that which God allows him!
So, as I believe that the whole of the human race was made by God, I also believe it is my duty to love them and that, for me, is the essence of being a Christian. I am not called to judge people - only to love them! After all, doesn't the Bible say, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' ?
God bless.
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. (Proverbs 12:18)
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
twistedwoods:-6
Excellent posts. Right on. God did create everything and since apparently He does not make mistakes than he also created homosexuality.
This whole thing emerges as a result of the heresy of the reformation-inerrancy.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Excellent posts. Right on. God did create everything and since apparently He does not make mistakes than he also created homosexuality.
This whole thing emerges as a result of the heresy of the reformation-inerrancy.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
The one constant about God is that S/He never changes. That constant is change.
When I say that one's God is too small. I am saying that their concept of God puts God in a box. I think twistedwoods has said it well. When we say that God will or will not do this or that we are limiting him to our very human way of thinking.
The history of the Bible itself as a book clearly shows that it is not infallible. Here again I agree with tw that the living word of God is the "Word made flesh" and nothing else.
The problem today is that too few realize that our religious faith is in part cultural. This does not deny the Divine but is why different folks have different concepts. I find it rather humorous that some seem to think they have the only true concept. That of course is nonsense. Yes, God is beyond us and our language and our conceptualization abilities.
To deny that God has spoken to different folks in a way they could best understand is once again trying to limit God. In fact I would say that in trying to limit God one is mocking Him/Her.
I've said it before and I will say it again the only sin in homosexuality is the abuse that others heap on them.
And in case anyone thinks otherwise I am straight.
Shalom
Ted:-6
When I say that one's God is too small. I am saying that their concept of God puts God in a box. I think twistedwoods has said it well. When we say that God will or will not do this or that we are limiting him to our very human way of thinking.
The history of the Bible itself as a book clearly shows that it is not infallible. Here again I agree with tw that the living word of God is the "Word made flesh" and nothing else.
The problem today is that too few realize that our religious faith is in part cultural. This does not deny the Divine but is why different folks have different concepts. I find it rather humorous that some seem to think they have the only true concept. That of course is nonsense. Yes, God is beyond us and our language and our conceptualization abilities.
To deny that God has spoken to different folks in a way they could best understand is once again trying to limit God. In fact I would say that in trying to limit God one is mocking Him/Her.
I've said it before and I will say it again the only sin in homosexuality is the abuse that others heap on them.
And in case anyone thinks otherwise I am straight.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Does God consider homosexuality a sin
Hoss:-6
It has been shown that in trying to change a homosexual into a heterosexual person can be very psychologically damaging.
I have to decry all of this nonsense that man is inherently evil. That is simply not true. That is a human doctrine and nothing more. Original Sin is a doctrine that came from Augustine and should have died with him. God saw all that He created and declared that is was very good.
Of course the whole creation story is a myth borrowed from the Mesopotamians. We have a new creation story now. It is called the Big Bang. To suggest that God could not have created us that way is another example of limiting God. "Sorry God but you did not do it that way." Is that calling God a liar??
Shalom
Ted:-6
It has been shown that in trying to change a homosexual into a heterosexual person can be very psychologically damaging.
I have to decry all of this nonsense that man is inherently evil. That is simply not true. That is a human doctrine and nothing more. Original Sin is a doctrine that came from Augustine and should have died with him. God saw all that He created and declared that is was very good.
Of course the whole creation story is a myth borrowed from the Mesopotamians. We have a new creation story now. It is called the Big Bang. To suggest that God could not have created us that way is another example of limiting God. "Sorry God but you did not do it that way." Is that calling God a liar??
Shalom
Ted:-6