It's a curious lie to have ordered the guards to tell because it's internally impossible. If they were asleep how could they know who had taken the body? If even one of them was awake and saw the disciples taking it, he'd have immediately woken the other guards and they'd have arrested the disciples - the guards were scarcely just going to sit by and watch without intervening. Are people meant to believe that the guards were ordered to observe but not interfere? Since that's so preposterous, why would the priests order the guards to go about telling something that was blatantly inconsistent and therefore obviously not true?
How's the conversation on the street going to go?
Guard: His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.
Jew on the street: How do you know it was the disciples?
Guard: We saw them!
Jew on the street: You weren't asleep then? So why didn't you stop them?
I mean, it's not a difficult conversation to construct. How else is it supposed to go?
Matthew 28:11-15
Matthew 28:11-15
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Matthew 28:11-15
Instead of asking "Did this really happen"" one should ask "What does the story mean?"
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
I don't think either Skittles or I have asked whether it really happened, Ted. That's a meta-discussion we've not engaged with. We could wrap each of our comments round with a wrapper saying "from the perspective of the storyteller" but the question inside the wrapper remains the same and the analysis covers the same ground.
Why would the priests be given, by the narrator of the Gospel, this curious task of impossibility? No sane priest would command a guard to lie so transparently. No sane guard would get an order like that and not ask "but what do I say when they ask me how I know that". It can be answered either in terms of why these priests might be so strange, or why the narrator might want these priests to appear so strange, I've no preference, both answers are potentially illuminating. Have a try if you like.
Why would the priests be given, by the narrator of the Gospel, this curious task of impossibility? No sane priest would command a guard to lie so transparently. No sane guard would get an order like that and not ask "but what do I say when they ask me how I know that". It can be answered either in terms of why these priests might be so strange, or why the narrator might want these priests to appear so strange, I've no preference, both answers are potentially illuminating. Have a try if you like.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Matthew 28:11-15
spot:-6
Because of the absurdity of that section and that small story the only question that can logically be asked is "What does it mean?"
Shalom
Ted:-6
Because of the absurdity of that section and that small story the only question that can logically be asked is "What does it mean?"
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
Fair enough, what does it mean?
One problem I have with it is the universal assumption since the early Fathers that the guards were Roman. The word for these custodians or "koustodia" only appears in the New Testament in this passage of Matthew and he also calls them observers, "tareo", those who tarry, people set to watch - it's even translated as "watchmen" in for example the King James version. When the priests ask Pilate for a guard to be set it sounds to me as though Pilate says "why ask me - you have your own custodians, get them to do it". The seal on the tomb is surely a seal of the priests, not a seal of the Romans. Being temple employees it makes more sense that they reported back to the priests instead of the civil authority. It makes more sense that they're sent out to talk to the local population with this strange tale of body theft - you'd scarcely expect Roman legionaries to be ordered to do that.
One problem I have with it is the universal assumption since the early Fathers that the guards were Roman. The word for these custodians or "koustodia" only appears in the New Testament in this passage of Matthew and he also calls them observers, "tareo", those who tarry, people set to watch - it's even translated as "watchmen" in for example the King James version. When the priests ask Pilate for a guard to be set it sounds to me as though Pilate says "why ask me - you have your own custodians, get them to do it". The seal on the tomb is surely a seal of the priests, not a seal of the Romans. Being temple employees it makes more sense that they reported back to the priests instead of the civil authority. It makes more sense that they're sent out to talk to the local population with this strange tale of body theft - you'd scarcely expect Roman legionaries to be ordered to do that.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Matthew 28:11-15
spot:-6
A quote from the "Interpreters One Volume . . ." might help understand why it was written. Matt. 27:62-66 comment.
"The chronological reference here is problematical, since it would suggest that the Jewish leaders approached Pilate on the sabbath itself with their request for a guard at the tomb. The story which is found only in Matt., is probably not historical, but arose at a time when Jews were charging that the resurrections claims of the Christians were a hoax and that the disciples had actually stolen the body of Jesus. It was introduced to show, that even official action by Pilate could not have prevented the Resurrection from occurring." pg 642, H. C. Kee.
This type of problem is the result of the literal understanding of a writing that is essentially metaphorical and written with a specific purpose in mind. It is not an attempt to deceive but the standard way in which ancient sacred writings came about thus the question, "What does it mean?"
Shalom
Ted:-6
A quote from the "Interpreters One Volume . . ." might help understand why it was written. Matt. 27:62-66 comment.
"The chronological reference here is problematical, since it would suggest that the Jewish leaders approached Pilate on the sabbath itself with their request for a guard at the tomb. The story which is found only in Matt., is probably not historical, but arose at a time when Jews were charging that the resurrections claims of the Christians were a hoax and that the disciples had actually stolen the body of Jesus. It was introduced to show, that even official action by Pilate could not have prevented the Resurrection from occurring." pg 642, H. C. Kee.
This type of problem is the result of the literal understanding of a writing that is essentially metaphorical and written with a specific purpose in mind. It is not an attempt to deceive but the standard way in which ancient sacred writings came about thus the question, "What does it mean?"
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
That accounts for why it's told, but not for why it's so inconceivable a tale. It's doesn't discuss the illogical premiss which must have occurred to anyone who first encountered it. Why should the author deliberately make it impossible to justify?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Matthew 28:11-15
rjwould;761321 wrote: Possibly because it is not necessary for it to make sense. It is to be believed on faith, so anything goes...We can always march out "God works in mysterious ways", when it is not logical.
Yes, indeed. Life would be so boring if there was no mystery and all things could be explained logically.
Yes, indeed. Life would be so boring if there was no mystery and all things could be explained logically.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Matthew 28:11-15
rjwould;761321 wrote: Possibly because it is not necessary for it to make sense. It is to be believed on faith, so anything goes...We can always march out "God works in mysterious ways", when it is not logical.
God works in mysterious ways. Human logic doesn't. The proposed dialogue I posted earlier in the thread is inescapable in the circumstances described. The alternative goes:
Guard: His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.
Jew on the street: How do you know it was the disciples?
Guard: Who else would have done it, you brainless fool!
Jew on the street: Fair point, sorry I asked.
But that rather destroys the point of getting the guards to distribute the story, anyone could have provided the same explanation. If it had to be the guards telling it they must have first-hand testimony to give, which the "we were asleep" bit makes rubbish of.
God works in mysterious ways. Human logic doesn't. The proposed dialogue I posted earlier in the thread is inescapable in the circumstances described. The alternative goes:
Guard: His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.
Jew on the street: How do you know it was the disciples?
Guard: Who else would have done it, you brainless fool!
Jew on the street: Fair point, sorry I asked.
But that rather destroys the point of getting the guards to distribute the story, anyone could have provided the same explanation. If it had to be the guards telling it they must have first-hand testimony to give, which the "we were asleep" bit makes rubbish of.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Matthew 28:11-15
rjwould:-6
Am I saying the resurrection actually happened?
Whatever happened at the Easter event was so profound that it has affected world history ever since. The disciples do not know what happened. As I have said before when it comes to discussing the divine we have no words that we can use nor do we have the conceptualizing ability thus all language used can only be metaphor.
Whatever it was the disciples and Jesus followers felt that Jesus was still with them in some profound way.
So to answer your question, Yes I believe in the resurrection metaphorically. I believe in the reality of the risen Christ. Do I understand it? No. I do not understand why not nothing and why anything but I accept it because of my experiences.
One of the problems we face in the 21st cent. is the result of a false assumption arising out of the enlightenment. That assumption is that something is real only if it can be seen, measured and tested in a lab. Feelings and experiences are very real but they cannot be tested in a lab. The fact is that many things are known by experience.
Now one might want to argue that that is subjectivity. This implies that objectivity exists and it does not. All of our senses detect things that must by our very nature be processed by the human brain. They automatically become subjective.
When one reads the profound discoveries in quantum theory they make reality an absolute wonder and mystery. Rationalism is great but it is not God and I do not worship at the altar of rationalism and logic. They are purely man made. Reality is so much bigger.
Thus we don't need to truck out "God works in mysterious ways." The whole of reality is a mystery including the parts we have not yet even explored.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Am I saying the resurrection actually happened?
Whatever happened at the Easter event was so profound that it has affected world history ever since. The disciples do not know what happened. As I have said before when it comes to discussing the divine we have no words that we can use nor do we have the conceptualizing ability thus all language used can only be metaphor.
Whatever it was the disciples and Jesus followers felt that Jesus was still with them in some profound way.
So to answer your question, Yes I believe in the resurrection metaphorically. I believe in the reality of the risen Christ. Do I understand it? No. I do not understand why not nothing and why anything but I accept it because of my experiences.
One of the problems we face in the 21st cent. is the result of a false assumption arising out of the enlightenment. That assumption is that something is real only if it can be seen, measured and tested in a lab. Feelings and experiences are very real but they cannot be tested in a lab. The fact is that many things are known by experience.
Now one might want to argue that that is subjectivity. This implies that objectivity exists and it does not. All of our senses detect things that must by our very nature be processed by the human brain. They automatically become subjective.
When one reads the profound discoveries in quantum theory they make reality an absolute wonder and mystery. Rationalism is great but it is not God and I do not worship at the altar of rationalism and logic. They are purely man made. Reality is so much bigger.
Thus we don't need to truck out "God works in mysterious ways." The whole of reality is a mystery including the parts we have not yet even explored.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
Ted;761346 wrote: rjwould:-6
Am I saying the resurrection actually happened?
Whatever happened at the Easter event was so profound that it has affected world history ever since. The disciples do not know what happened. As I have said before when it comes to discussing the divine we have no words that we can use nor do we have the conceptualizing ability thus all language used can only be metaphor.
Whatever it was the disciples and Jesus followers felt that Jesus was still with them in some profound way.
So to answer your question, Yes I believe in the resurrection metaphorically. I believe in the reality of the risen Christ. Do I understand it? No. I do not understand why not nothing and why anything but I accept it because of my experiences.
One of the problems we face in the 21st cent. is the result of a false assumption arising out of the enlightenment. That assumption is that something is real only if it can be seen, measured and tested in a lab. Feelings and experiences are very real but they cannot be tested in a lab. The fact is that many things are known by experience.
Now one might want to argue that that is subjectivity. This implies that objectivity exists and it does not. All of our senses detect things that must by our very nature be processed by the human brain. They automatically become subjective.
When one reads the profound discoveries in quantum theory they make reality an absolute wonder and mystery. Rationalism is great but it is not God and I do not worship at the altar of rationalism and logic. They are purely man made. Reality is so much bigger.
Thus we don't need to truck out "God works in mysterious ways." The whole of reality is a mystery including the parts we have not yet even explored.Shalom
Ted:-6
I so agree with what you said, Ted, but I couldn't have articulated it as you did. Thank you.
Am I saying the resurrection actually happened?
Whatever happened at the Easter event was so profound that it has affected world history ever since. The disciples do not know what happened. As I have said before when it comes to discussing the divine we have no words that we can use nor do we have the conceptualizing ability thus all language used can only be metaphor.
Whatever it was the disciples and Jesus followers felt that Jesus was still with them in some profound way.
So to answer your question, Yes I believe in the resurrection metaphorically. I believe in the reality of the risen Christ. Do I understand it? No. I do not understand why not nothing and why anything but I accept it because of my experiences.
One of the problems we face in the 21st cent. is the result of a false assumption arising out of the enlightenment. That assumption is that something is real only if it can be seen, measured and tested in a lab. Feelings and experiences are very real but they cannot be tested in a lab. The fact is that many things are known by experience.
Now one might want to argue that that is subjectivity. This implies that objectivity exists and it does not. All of our senses detect things that must by our very nature be processed by the human brain. They automatically become subjective.
When one reads the profound discoveries in quantum theory they make reality an absolute wonder and mystery. Rationalism is great but it is not God and I do not worship at the altar of rationalism and logic. They are purely man made. Reality is so much bigger.
Thus we don't need to truck out "God works in mysterious ways." The whole of reality is a mystery including the parts we have not yet even explored.Shalom
Ted:-6
I so agree with what you said, Ted, but I couldn't have articulated it as you did. Thank you.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Matthew 28:11-15
spot:-6
We know very little about the life of this man from Nazareth, Jesus. One of the things that most historians accept is that he was crucified. One can argue till the cows come home about the reasons. For one thing he was crucified for being a **** disturber and for treason.
The stories in the gospels are not eye witness accounts. They are what the church had come to believe about Jesus at the time of writing. The crucifixion stories are metaphor used to explain the inexplicable and the incomprehensible. Here again, metaphor is used, because our human language and conceptualization abilities fail. There is little doubt that there is some historical facts therein but truth does not need historical accuracy.
Shalom
Ted:-6
We know very little about the life of this man from Nazareth, Jesus. One of the things that most historians accept is that he was crucified. One can argue till the cows come home about the reasons. For one thing he was crucified for being a **** disturber and for treason.
The stories in the gospels are not eye witness accounts. They are what the church had come to believe about Jesus at the time of writing. The crucifixion stories are metaphor used to explain the inexplicable and the incomprehensible. Here again, metaphor is used, because our human language and conceptualization abilities fail. There is little doubt that there is some historical facts therein but truth does not need historical accuracy.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
theia:-6
Thanks. It would be so profound to understand even more. Alas that is not likely to happen at this time.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thanks. It would be so profound to understand even more. Alas that is not likely to happen at this time.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
rjwould:-6
You are so correct about the use of logic. It is used and it does work in the physical world, for the most part at least. Man has lost much of the ability to look beyond the physical.
My answer was not meant to be taken in any other than a positive way and of course I could be wrong. I can only hope that I have part of the truth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are so correct about the use of logic. It is used and it does work in the physical world, for the most part at least. Man has lost much of the ability to look beyond the physical.
My answer was not meant to be taken in any other than a positive way and of course I could be wrong. I can only hope that I have part of the truth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Matthew 28:11-15
rjwould;761338 wrote: I agree with the mystery part and boredom. I think the mystery is in life itself and a God is not necessary for me to see it. The fact that I wake up everyday is a mystery.
I can understand what you mean...but for me the word "God" and the thought of God provides a sort of framework within which I can place the mystery of life. I fear I would be lost without this because of the awesome magnitude of the mystery.
I can understand what you mean...but for me the word "God" and the thought of God provides a sort of framework within which I can place the mystery of life. I fear I would be lost without this because of the awesome magnitude of the mystery.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Matthew 28:11-15
theia:-6
Not all folks accept the reality of God. That is fine but among those who did not was Nietzsche. Towards the end of his life he experienced tremendous despair and ultimately cried out for God in a poem he wrote. While this does not happen to all it does happen to many.
And of course God has a thousand names but as the Muslims say "God is one. There is no other."
We must each choose our own path.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Not all folks accept the reality of God. That is fine but among those who did not was Nietzsche. Towards the end of his life he experienced tremendous despair and ultimately cried out for God in a poem he wrote. While this does not happen to all it does happen to many.
And of course God has a thousand names but as the Muslims say "God is one. There is no other."
We must each choose our own path.
Shalom
Ted:-6