Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version) 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
The way I read this without feeling hopelessly lost is by trying to see how Jesus views the law. In these verses he is clearly pointing out the importance of the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. By saying we need to do better than the Pharisees he doesn’t raise the bar, he simply points out how woeful their self righteous condition was.
I’m comforted by the way Jesus handled those who confronted him over harvesting wheat with his hands on the Sabbath. He never conceded that he had broken the law as charged because he hadn’t. Over and over he pointed out how the law was misused by those who used it to get over on others. I think it was one of the major reasons for his ministry on earth. He wanted man to respect and keep a law according to the spirit of the law as he emphasizes in Matthew 5 and continues to talk about in the next couple of chapters. It isn’t that we shouldn’t take another man’s wife… it is that we shouldn’t have the idea in our hearts in the first place. It isn’t that we shouldn’t murder, it is that we shouldn’t want to. He is saying it is the condition of our heart he is concerned about.
He never did away with any law to replace it with another. Nowhere can such a declaration by him be found. He is the Lawgiver so no authority of a lesser position could rescind his laws. Jesus completed the law by bringing mercy and grace to it. He showed us that the Lawgiver will also be the Judge and the Judge is merciful. The Judge wants us to succeed so he puts the emphasis on seeking. To keep the letter of the law is too much for us to accomplish. Keeping the spirit of the law by having a heart that doesn’t want to harm others can be accomplished. If we seek to have his heart for others we will be keeping the law. When we repent, turning from our selfish ways and desire his ways we begin to keep the law by virtue of the condition of our hearts.
The law brings us to the point we turn to Jesus, the lawgiver, for help. It makes us dependant upon him and that’s exactly what he wants.
Matt 7: 9-12 is in context with Matt. 5… "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
The Law
The Law
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
I have to strongly disagree that "Jesus did not raise the bar."
He most certainly did. J. D. Hall in his book "The Cross in Our Context" clearly points out that his fulfillment was exactly in raising the bar. Jesus is quoted as saying "You have heard that it was said . . .but I say to you. . ." He made the law much more specific and certainly much harder to follow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
He most certainly did. J. D. Hall in his book "The Cross in Our Context" clearly points out that his fulfillment was exactly in raising the bar. Jesus is quoted as saying "You have heard that it was said . . .but I say to you. . ." He made the law much more specific and certainly much harder to follow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;752602 wrote: I have to strongly disagree that "Jesus did not raise the bar."
He most certainly did. J. D. Hall in his book "The Cross in Our Context" clearly points out that his fulfillment was exactly in raising the bar. Jesus is quoted as saying "You have heard that it was said . . .but I say to you. . ." He made the law much more specific and certainly much harder to follow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I’m shocked! You don’t agree with me? When has that ever happened?:-3
The book quoters of the day didn’t understand what Jesus was doing either. They kept saying “the commentaries (Talmud) saysâ€. They needed to commit the law to their hearts rather than their memories. Once the law is in your heart it follows that you will keep the law because you won’t be driven to break it. We also know that if we break the law with a right heart grace and mercy abound. He wants us to understand his heart and the spirit of the law so we don’t have to worry about the letter of the law and keep quoting books.
He most certainly did. J. D. Hall in his book "The Cross in Our Context" clearly points out that his fulfillment was exactly in raising the bar. Jesus is quoted as saying "You have heard that it was said . . .but I say to you. . ." He made the law much more specific and certainly much harder to follow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I’m shocked! You don’t agree with me? When has that ever happened?:-3
The book quoters of the day didn’t understand what Jesus was doing either. They kept saying “the commentaries (Talmud) saysâ€. They needed to commit the law to their hearts rather than their memories. Once the law is in your heart it follows that you will keep the law because you won’t be driven to break it. We also know that if we break the law with a right heart grace and mercy abound. He wants us to understand his heart and the spirit of the law so we don’t have to worry about the letter of the law and keep quoting books.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
LOL. Now we can't always agree. It would ruin our reputations.
People have been quoting books since writing began. The Talmud is simply the ancient scholarly work explaining what the writer thought the particular quote meant. There can be as much divine direction in those books as in the Bible. They too are inspired to write.
Shalom
Ted:-6
LOL. Now we can't always agree. It would ruin our reputations.
People have been quoting books since writing began. The Talmud is simply the ancient scholarly work explaining what the writer thought the particular quote meant. There can be as much divine direction in those books as in the Bible. They too are inspired to write.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;752620 wrote: Clint:-6
LOL. Now we can't always agree. It would ruin our reputations.
People have been quoting books since writing began. The Talmud is simply the ancient scholarly work explaining what the writer thought the particular quote meant. There can be as much divine direction in those books as in the Bible. They too are inspired to write.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Hmmm. I thought that was what I said the Talmud was...a commentary. Thanks for agreeing. I don't agree they rise to the same level as Scripture though.
The church today has fallen into a trap. Preachers (I used to be one) have tremendous pressure on them to have a new message at least once a week…sometimes more. To produce that message you must dig and dig to glean something new to feed to the information hungry flock. That pursuit of knowledge has caused us to worship knowledge. We sift and sort like the keepers of the law Jesus was trying to reach with his message of peace, hope and love. They, as we do, drill their well, hit water and keep on drilling, bragging about how deep the well is and never deliver a drop of water
LOL. Now we can't always agree. It would ruin our reputations.
People have been quoting books since writing began. The Talmud is simply the ancient scholarly work explaining what the writer thought the particular quote meant. There can be as much divine direction in those books as in the Bible. They too are inspired to write.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Hmmm. I thought that was what I said the Talmud was...a commentary. Thanks for agreeing. I don't agree they rise to the same level as Scripture though.
The church today has fallen into a trap. Preachers (I used to be one) have tremendous pressure on them to have a new message at least once a week…sometimes more. To produce that message you must dig and dig to glean something new to feed to the information hungry flock. That pursuit of knowledge has caused us to worship knowledge. We sift and sort like the keepers of the law Jesus was trying to reach with his message of peace, hope and love. They, as we do, drill their well, hit water and keep on drilling, bragging about how deep the well is and never deliver a drop of water
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
I do agree with you that the church has fallen into a trap. The trap began with the reformation. It was during the reformation that inerrancy became a theory. While there were some who followed that thought in the early church most did not. This inerrancy belief leads ultimately to idolatry.
The moment we think of the Bible as "THE Word of God" which is a term that rightly belongs to "the Word made flesh, we place it on the same level as God which is an error. The Bible becomes the "word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the very human words therein and not because of its authorship.
The early church realized that one could read the Bible many times and come up with many valid interpretations. That is the beauty of literature and especially good literature.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I do agree with you that the church has fallen into a trap. The trap began with the reformation. It was during the reformation that inerrancy became a theory. While there were some who followed that thought in the early church most did not. This inerrancy belief leads ultimately to idolatry.
The moment we think of the Bible as "THE Word of God" which is a term that rightly belongs to "the Word made flesh, we place it on the same level as God which is an error. The Bible becomes the "word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the very human words therein and not because of its authorship.
The early church realized that one could read the Bible many times and come up with many valid interpretations. That is the beauty of literature and especially good literature.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;752622 wrote: Clint:-6
I do agree with you that the church has fallen into a trap. The trap began with the reformation. It was during the reformation that inerrancy became a theory. While there were some who followed that thought in the early church most did not. This inerrancy belief leads ultimately to idolatry.
The moment we think of the Bible as "THE Word of God" which is a term that rightly belongs to "the Word made flesh, we place it on the same level as God which is an error. The Bible becomes the "word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the very human words therein and not because of its authorship.
The early church realized that one could read the Bible many times and come up with many valid interpretations. That is the beauty of literature and especially good literature.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don't know why it takes about three posts in a thread to go after the way the Bible is read. If I thought what you think about the Bible while knowing how important the faith of others is and how they view the Bible, I would be very careful about saying what I thought. What harm is done to you by the belief the Bible is inerrant if you aren’t being forced to believe the same thing? I know some go overboard in that direction but there is an excessive opposite direction as well.
A very learned friend of mine who might agree with you on the Bible didn’t like sending kids to study theology because they so often lost their faith in the process. Knowledge is a dangerous thing when applied without compassion and heart for the fragile spirit of the receiver.
Whether we idolize the Bible or idolize knowledge we are practicing idolatry.
I do agree with you that the church has fallen into a trap. The trap began with the reformation. It was during the reformation that inerrancy became a theory. While there were some who followed that thought in the early church most did not. This inerrancy belief leads ultimately to idolatry.
The moment we think of the Bible as "THE Word of God" which is a term that rightly belongs to "the Word made flesh, we place it on the same level as God which is an error. The Bible becomes the "word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through the very human words therein and not because of its authorship.
The early church realized that one could read the Bible many times and come up with many valid interpretations. That is the beauty of literature and especially good literature.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don't know why it takes about three posts in a thread to go after the way the Bible is read. If I thought what you think about the Bible while knowing how important the faith of others is and how they view the Bible, I would be very careful about saying what I thought. What harm is done to you by the belief the Bible is inerrant if you aren’t being forced to believe the same thing? I know some go overboard in that direction but there is an excessive opposite direction as well.
A very learned friend of mine who might agree with you on the Bible didn’t like sending kids to study theology because they so often lost their faith in the process. Knowledge is a dangerous thing when applied without compassion and heart for the fragile spirit of the receiver.
Whether we idolize the Bible or idolize knowledge we are practicing idolatry.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Jester;752634 wrote: Can I enterject a comment here... Innerancy in my personal doctrinal statement speaks to the original text, original letters, original everything. I do recognize that there exist variance and errancy in the translations and possibly but less likely in the copying of the original texts, as they were scribed.
I still strongly disagree however, that the bible can be interpreted many ways, there is still one primary translation and interpretation. There is just only so many ways a word can be re-translated, re interpreted, etc.
But there are demonstrably many interpretations of the Bible - Luther and Calvin started with identical texts and came up with diametrically opposite interpretations, there are hundreds of Christian denominations using the same Bible each with their own take on the meaning.
All of these interpretations are held with equal belief and sincerity by their adherents, but many are mutually exclusive.
I still strongly disagree however, that the bible can be interpreted many ways, there is still one primary translation and interpretation. There is just only so many ways a word can be re-translated, re interpreted, etc.
But there are demonstrably many interpretations of the Bible - Luther and Calvin started with identical texts and came up with diametrically opposite interpretations, there are hundreds of Christian denominations using the same Bible each with their own take on the meaning.
All of these interpretations are held with equal belief and sincerity by their adherents, but many are mutually exclusive.
The Law
Jester;752956 wrote: Yes. Divisions abound, no doubt. But my opinion is that they are man made.
Undoubtedly - but real for all that.
Undoubtedly - but real for all that.
The Law
Clint:-6
I gather from what you say that you think that there is danger in my presenting my ideas and those of thousands of others. No problem there.
I see a serious danger in not presenting them. How many have been turned away from faith because they are being asked to believe what their common sense tells them is absurd?
The past is gone. It is the future that is ahead of us.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I gather from what you say that you think that there is danger in my presenting my ideas and those of thousands of others. No problem there.
I see a serious danger in not presenting them. How many have been turned away from faith because they are being asked to believe what their common sense tells them is absurd?
The past is gone. It is the future that is ahead of us.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Jester:-6
I had an excellent but busy vacation. Thanks. I trust yours was the same. It is such a wonderful time of the year.
The problem with your comments lies in the fact that we do not have the original documents written by the authors. For example there were many copies of Matthew. There were variations among all of them. The documents used were copies of copies of copies of copies etc. All were in some way edited, altered, added to, subtracted from and changed for both religious and political reasons.
In total among all of the documents used for the NT there were oiver 400 000 variants.
Scholarly people had their work cut out for them. They did the best they could.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I had an excellent but busy vacation. Thanks. I trust yours was the same. It is such a wonderful time of the year.
The problem with your comments lies in the fact that we do not have the original documents written by the authors. For example there were many copies of Matthew. There were variations among all of them. The documents used were copies of copies of copies of copies etc. All were in some way edited, altered, added to, subtracted from and changed for both religious and political reasons.
In total among all of the documents used for the NT there were oiver 400 000 variants.
Scholarly people had their work cut out for them. They did the best they could.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;753018 wrote: Clint:-6
The past is gone. It is the future that is ahead of us.
Shalom
Ted:-6
So how do we avoid just making it up as we go into the future? Or is that preferable to holding to a standard we don't fully understand?
The past is gone. It is the future that is ahead of us.
Shalom
Ted:-6
So how do we avoid just making it up as we go into the future? Or is that preferable to holding to a standard we don't fully understand?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
That depends on how seriously you take Jesus words as reported in John 16:12-14. While I don't believe those words came from Jesus it does not mean there is not some truth in there.
Shalom
Ted:-6
That depends on how seriously you take Jesus words as reported in John 16:12-14. While I don't believe those words came from Jesus it does not mean there is not some truth in there.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;753041 wrote: Clint:-6
That depends on how seriously you take Jesus words as reported in John 16:12-14. While I don't believe those words came from Jesus it does not mean there is not some truth in there.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Some may say the Holy Spirit brought a new message to John who wrote in down in the book of Revelation. I tend to believe the Spirit speaks the new in harmony with Scripture. Remember, the same Jesus said the Torah and Prophets will never pass away.
That depends on how seriously you take Jesus words as reported in John 16:12-14. While I don't believe those words came from Jesus it does not mean there is not some truth in there.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Some may say the Holy Spirit brought a new message to John who wrote in down in the book of Revelation. I tend to believe the Spirit speaks the new in harmony with Scripture. Remember, the same Jesus said the Torah and Prophets will never pass away.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
I don't disagree with that. I go further. I believe that God continues to speak to us through the Holy Spirit even today. The scriptures including the Torah are products of there era and culture. It seems to me that we must be able to apply the wisdom of the sacred scriptures today, in light of our accumulated knowledge.
If our faith does not reflect the reality around us then we are denying, in a sense, reality. Our ever increasing fund of knowledge is not just a product of human endeavor but also a gift from God. It is in this way that our faith continues to be a living faith.
God has not changed but how we see and understand has changed in light of the ever increasing knowledge God has allowed to to gather.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don't disagree with that. I go further. I believe that God continues to speak to us through the Holy Spirit even today. The scriptures including the Torah are products of there era and culture. It seems to me that we must be able to apply the wisdom of the sacred scriptures today, in light of our accumulated knowledge.
If our faith does not reflect the reality around us then we are denying, in a sense, reality. Our ever increasing fund of knowledge is not just a product of human endeavor but also a gift from God. It is in this way that our faith continues to be a living faith.
God has not changed but how we see and understand has changed in light of the ever increasing knowledge God has allowed to to gather.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;753299 wrote: Clint:-6
I don't disagree with that. I go further. I believe that God continues to speak to us through the Holy Spirit even today. The scriptures including the Torah are products of there era and culture. It seems to me that we must be able to apply the wisdom of the sacred scriptures today, in light of our accumulated knowledge.
If our faith does not reflect the reality around us then we are denying, in a sense, reality. Our ever increasing fund of knowledge is not just a product of human endeavor but also a gift from God. It is in this way that our faith continues to be a living faith.
God has not changed but how we see and understand has changed in light of the ever increasing knowledge God has allowed to to gather.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Again, I find myself agreeing with you but there is a problem in all of this. I recently started a thread about how God communicates with us asking for a response to the question “ What is God Saying to You?†A few people were actually able to grasp the concept of God communicating with them outside the written word and there were a few beautiful posts. The thread died though because mostly, people wanted to pontificate on the subject.
In today’s culture we want more than anything to tell everyone how much we know rather than give God credit for what he is saying. How can we possibly grow spiritually with that being the case?
I don't disagree with that. I go further. I believe that God continues to speak to us through the Holy Spirit even today. The scriptures including the Torah are products of there era and culture. It seems to me that we must be able to apply the wisdom of the sacred scriptures today, in light of our accumulated knowledge.
If our faith does not reflect the reality around us then we are denying, in a sense, reality. Our ever increasing fund of knowledge is not just a product of human endeavor but also a gift from God. It is in this way that our faith continues to be a living faith.
God has not changed but how we see and understand has changed in light of the ever increasing knowledge God has allowed to to gather.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Again, I find myself agreeing with you but there is a problem in all of this. I recently started a thread about how God communicates with us asking for a response to the question “ What is God Saying to You?†A few people were actually able to grasp the concept of God communicating with them outside the written word and there were a few beautiful posts. The thread died though because mostly, people wanted to pontificate on the subject.
In today’s culture we want more than anything to tell everyone how much we know rather than give God credit for what he is saying. How can we possibly grow spiritually with that being the case?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
I think that man has been created as a curious animal. We actively seek out knowledge as we try to both understand reality and seek how to apply it to improving life on a daily basis.
Those who want to grow spiritually will do so. They will, as I have done, learn to better understand cosmology which includes God.
If we present and ask a person to believe what s/he knows to be absurd s/he will react in one of a few ways; laugh and turn away with scorn or for want of some personal assurance buy into it or as I and many others have done recognize the value in the ancient writings and as a result of personal experience not give up on faith but turn to try to understand the ancient works in light of the present era.
I, personally, took the latter approach and found that peace that passes all understanding. My faith not only grew but became ever stronger.
I think that one must come to understand that truth can and is presented in many ways. Something does not have to be historically accurate to be true. That is a false assumption of the enlightenment.
We accomplish little when we ignore reality. There are many scholars, scientists, etc. around the world who have done as I have done and not only remained in faith but enhanced that faith.
How many have been turned away because they were asked to believe in what they saw as the absurd. This I am very concerned about.
Those who are of a spiritual nature will automatically seek to improve that. Those who are not but can see in the lives and actions of others that they have something good to offer will seek out what they long for.
As an aside it is interesting to know that one of the world's most famous atheists cried out for God near the end of his life; Neitzhe. Ultimately even he realized a spiritual need.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think that man has been created as a curious animal. We actively seek out knowledge as we try to both understand reality and seek how to apply it to improving life on a daily basis.
Those who want to grow spiritually will do so. They will, as I have done, learn to better understand cosmology which includes God.
If we present and ask a person to believe what s/he knows to be absurd s/he will react in one of a few ways; laugh and turn away with scorn or for want of some personal assurance buy into it or as I and many others have done recognize the value in the ancient writings and as a result of personal experience not give up on faith but turn to try to understand the ancient works in light of the present era.
I, personally, took the latter approach and found that peace that passes all understanding. My faith not only grew but became ever stronger.
I think that one must come to understand that truth can and is presented in many ways. Something does not have to be historically accurate to be true. That is a false assumption of the enlightenment.
We accomplish little when we ignore reality. There are many scholars, scientists, etc. around the world who have done as I have done and not only remained in faith but enhanced that faith.
How many have been turned away because they were asked to believe in what they saw as the absurd. This I am very concerned about.
Those who are of a spiritual nature will automatically seek to improve that. Those who are not but can see in the lives and actions of others that they have something good to offer will seek out what they long for.
As an aside it is interesting to know that one of the world's most famous atheists cried out for God near the end of his life; Neitzhe. Ultimately even he realized a spiritual need.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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hoxtonchris
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:41 pm
The Law
i have debated this subject many times on different forum sites.the atheists always insist of course that god dosnt exist,but what i cant grasp is that they wont admit to wishing he did exist.surely it would be better to have god than not?i feel they are just denouncing god in every aspect for the sake of it.
The Law
Clint:-6
Personally, I reject the concept of God presented by fundamentalist/literalists. I do accept the God I see revealed in Jesus of Nazareth.
It is not God I reject but a concept I find to be unacceptable. As I have led a very prayerful life that is where I have been led. I have relied on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I have kept an open mind and made every effort to understand the divine presence that I have experienced. My experience and research and prayer life have led me to the point where I openly declared myself both a Christian and a pluralist.
I cannot even come close to describing or defining God or the divine presence but I am not called to do that. I am called to trust God. The word trust is a relational word and not a word that indicates right belief. If we think that we have right belief than which one of the 22 000 Christian denominations and the Great faiths of the world is correct?
We, as humans, are all called to do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with God as we understand Him/Her. We are called to trust. Trust means a relationship and that trust along with doing justice etc. is what God demands. All of the great faiths of the world were founded on those premises.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Personally, I reject the concept of God presented by fundamentalist/literalists. I do accept the God I see revealed in Jesus of Nazareth.
It is not God I reject but a concept I find to be unacceptable. As I have led a very prayerful life that is where I have been led. I have relied on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I have kept an open mind and made every effort to understand the divine presence that I have experienced. My experience and research and prayer life have led me to the point where I openly declared myself both a Christian and a pluralist.
I cannot even come close to describing or defining God or the divine presence but I am not called to do that. I am called to trust God. The word trust is a relational word and not a word that indicates right belief. If we think that we have right belief than which one of the 22 000 Christian denominations and the Great faiths of the world is correct?
We, as humans, are all called to do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with God as we understand Him/Her. We are called to trust. Trust means a relationship and that trust along with doing justice etc. is what God demands. All of the great faiths of the world were founded on those premises.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
rjwould:-6
I too reject the God you have described.
On the other hand I have found true freedom in my faith. I am no one's slave. I accept the fact that I am called to serve. That has been my life. Folks of all faiths or no faith choose a vocation; engineer, medical doctor, trash collector, ditch digger etc. In one way or another all of these people are serving each other and all those jobs are essential.
I enjoy going to church, not only because I experience the real presence but because I enjoy the great social construct of community. I get great pleasure out of those experiences. I don't have to go. I want to go. I help support foster children not because I have to but because I want to.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I too reject the God you have described.
On the other hand I have found true freedom in my faith. I am no one's slave. I accept the fact that I am called to serve. That has been my life. Folks of all faiths or no faith choose a vocation; engineer, medical doctor, trash collector, ditch digger etc. In one way or another all of these people are serving each other and all those jobs are essential.
I enjoy going to church, not only because I experience the real presence but because I enjoy the great social construct of community. I get great pleasure out of those experiences. I don't have to go. I want to go. I help support foster children not because I have to but because I want to.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
hoxtonchris:-6
There have always been atheists. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the fundamental atheist every bit as much as I have concerns about any religious fundamentalism.
If some form of after life is a reality, and I believe it is, then I believe there will be folks of all faiths or no faith there. In Matt. 25 Jesus gives us a parable that clearly shows that doing justice and kindness is an acceptance of him whether or not we even know his name and they will be invited in.
Time will tell but in the meantime justice and kindness would make the world a much better place.
Shalom
Ted:-6
There have always been atheists. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the fundamental atheist every bit as much as I have concerns about any religious fundamentalism.
If some form of after life is a reality, and I believe it is, then I believe there will be folks of all faiths or no faith there. In Matt. 25 Jesus gives us a parable that clearly shows that doing justice and kindness is an acceptance of him whether or not we even know his name and they will be invited in.
Time will tell but in the meantime justice and kindness would make the world a much better place.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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hoxtonchris
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:41 pm
The Law
rjwould,,,the advantage of their being a god is that there is hope...you have to experience being in a near death situation ,either yourself or a loved one ,then you pray there is a god to help you thru or possibly save you,my grandaoughter was born 3 months early i prayed there was a god to hear my prayers and was thankfull i wasnt atheist..
The Law
hoxtonchris:-6
Excellent point. Even Neitzche found despair near the end of his life and called out for God. Faith offers hope and purpose. For many the other offers nothing except for despair.
Blessings
Shalom
Ted:-6
Excellent point. Even Neitzche found despair near the end of his life and called out for God. Faith offers hope and purpose. For many the other offers nothing except for despair.
Blessings
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
rjwould:-6
I have no problem with that. My point was simply that because one has a religious faith does not make them a slave. It is a choice. We must each choose our own path.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have no problem with that. My point was simply that because one has a religious faith does not make them a slave. It is a choice. We must each choose our own path.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
rjwould:-6
I can go along with being a slave to right and wrong to a certain point. I do not accept murder as appropriate yet I can see cases where it might be justified. The same goes for the others. Such judgments are basically a cultural issue. If one lives in a culture one is subject to its mores or one has the choice to move.
Black and white! It might be nice if that were the case but such is not the fact. Nothing is black and white. All is gray. But once again we have the cultural influence.
Am I a slave to what I am told as I perceive something? I don't think so. First of all I deny any pure objectivity. It is a non existent factor. I do listen to others opinions but in the end I make up my own mind. I cannot do otherwise.
As to being my own master. I am that. I choose freely and openly to follow in the footsteps of one Jesus of Nazareth because I believe he was on the right track. Even then I am a strange one in that I openly recognize the validity in all of the great faiths of the world.
We are indeed all slaves to "living". We fight like hell to stay alive. Then of course we have the problem of altruism or even the basic human response which can be unpredictable. I guess in one sense we are slaves to our responses but then we do choose how to respond, don't we?
A fundamentalist person of any faith is perhaps a slave to their faith but then again they made that choice and they can choose differently. The fundamental atheist is also a slave to their choice but they could also make a different choice. We really do need to keep and open mind. Since none of us is perfect that is somewhat difficult to do 100%.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can go along with being a slave to right and wrong to a certain point. I do not accept murder as appropriate yet I can see cases where it might be justified. The same goes for the others. Such judgments are basically a cultural issue. If one lives in a culture one is subject to its mores or one has the choice to move.
Black and white! It might be nice if that were the case but such is not the fact. Nothing is black and white. All is gray. But once again we have the cultural influence.
Am I a slave to what I am told as I perceive something? I don't think so. First of all I deny any pure objectivity. It is a non existent factor. I do listen to others opinions but in the end I make up my own mind. I cannot do otherwise.
As to being my own master. I am that. I choose freely and openly to follow in the footsteps of one Jesus of Nazareth because I believe he was on the right track. Even then I am a strange one in that I openly recognize the validity in all of the great faiths of the world.
We are indeed all slaves to "living". We fight like hell to stay alive. Then of course we have the problem of altruism or even the basic human response which can be unpredictable. I guess in one sense we are slaves to our responses but then we do choose how to respond, don't we?
A fundamentalist person of any faith is perhaps a slave to their faith but then again they made that choice and they can choose differently. The fundamental atheist is also a slave to their choice but they could also make a different choice. We really do need to keep and open mind. Since none of us is perfect that is somewhat difficult to do 100%.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
This looks like an appropriate place for this point as it does relate to law.
In Numbers 31 the Hebrew soldiers are told to invade Canaan and kill every man woman and child. There was one exception they could keep the virgins for themselves. One thing is for certain. The writer new soldiers.
Some time ago a group of American soldiers entered and Iraqui home and killed the men and raped the woman. If the Bible was valid at the time of the supposed invasion of Canaan and is still valid those soldiers should not be charged with anything. There is little difference between the two situations.
Of course this is absurd now just as it was then. It was and is a war crime. Only in the earlier event it was apparently OK'd by God so that makes it right.
Shalom
Ted:-6
In Numbers 31 the Hebrew soldiers are told to invade Canaan and kill every man woman and child. There was one exception they could keep the virgins for themselves. One thing is for certain. The writer new soldiers.
Some time ago a group of American soldiers entered and Iraqui home and killed the men and raped the woman. If the Bible was valid at the time of the supposed invasion of Canaan and is still valid those soldiers should not be charged with anything. There is little difference between the two situations.
Of course this is absurd now just as it was then. It was and is a war crime. Only in the earlier event it was apparently OK'd by God so that makes it right.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;753893 wrote: One thing is for certain. The writer new soldiers.
I just want to make one thing perfectly clear. I have no use for you, Ted.
I just want to make one thing perfectly clear. I have no use for you, Ted.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
Naturally I don't mean all soldiers. I do know the man who used to make condoms during the war and his largest shipments were to the Ministry of Defense for shipment overseas to the troops. That is the reality. But if you have no use for me that is your problem and not mine. Probably a denial of reality. Are you trying to tell me that did not happen?
I have great respect for the soldiers many of my relatives were in the forces during the second world war and a few did not return.
History is full of such information. It is not new. It is a fact of life and of war.
Have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Naturally I don't mean all soldiers. I do know the man who used to make condoms during the war and his largest shipments were to the Ministry of Defense for shipment overseas to the troops. That is the reality. But if you have no use for me that is your problem and not mine. Probably a denial of reality. Are you trying to tell me that did not happen?
I have great respect for the soldiers many of my relatives were in the forces during the second world war and a few did not return.
History is full of such information. It is not new. It is a fact of life and of war.
Have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;753935 wrote: Clint:-6
Naturally I don't mean all soldiers. I do know the man who used to make condoms during the war and his largest shipments were to the Ministry of Defense for shipment overseas to the troops. That is the reality. But if you have no use for me that is your problem and not mine. Probably a denial of reality. Are you trying to tell me that did not happen?
I have great respect for the soldiers many of my relatives were in the forces during the second world war and a few did not return.
Have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don’t see it as a problem for me at all. I see it as a relief. And I think you are lying about having respect for soldiers.
Naturally I don't mean all soldiers. I do know the man who used to make condoms during the war and his largest shipments were to the Ministry of Defense for shipment overseas to the troops. That is the reality. But if you have no use for me that is your problem and not mine. Probably a denial of reality. Are you trying to tell me that did not happen?
I have great respect for the soldiers many of my relatives were in the forces during the second world war and a few did not return.
Have a nice day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I don’t see it as a problem for me at all. I see it as a relief. And I think you are lying about having respect for soldiers.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
Why not deal with the issue instead of making personal attacks?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Why not deal with the issue instead of making personal attacks?
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Yes, the condoms were made by one Mr. Stubbs in a rubber mill in a small town in Ontario called Alton. Alton still exists and the rubber mill is still there. A friend looked through the window and saw the condom molds and claimed that he was envious. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Shame on Patton. I don't believe for a minute his morals are the morals of all soldiers or particularly the ones today. Call my reaction whatever you wish. It is what it is.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
It does seem to me there are two issues here. The one is the Iraqi incident. The other is the incident reported in Numbers 31. Are they or are they not war crimes? It seems to me that such incidents are war crimes.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Clint:-6
Then of course there are thousands of condoms. Perhaps they were put on the end of their rifle barrels to keep the rain and mud out. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
Then of course there are thousands of condoms. Perhaps they were put on the end of their rifle barrels to keep the rain and mud out. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Of 300,000 men between the ages of 18 and 38 in Vancouver BC, how many have committed rape and or murder?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
I fail to see what that has to do with the issues above. That is simply a red herring thrown in to avoid the issues. There is no denying that happens but that is not the issue at this point.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I fail to see what that has to do with the issues above. That is simply a red herring thrown in to avoid the issues. There is no denying that happens but that is not the issue at this point.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
rjwould;753973 wrote: Don't turn away from a discussion because some of it offends you, your older and smarter than that.
Nobody said all soldiers were like that, but that is the attitude of much of the leadership far too often. Whatever it takes to win.
One show I enjoy watching is "Rome" and one reason for that is you get to see quite clearly that soldiering was a way of employment. If you were willing to put your life on the line for the king, your reward or payment was the spoils. The men women and children as slaves and prostitutes, household possessions and so on. That mentality has always been used in war as motivation because after all your asking people to die for you if necessary.
It hasn't got a thing to do with being offended. It has to do with who I am having a "discussion" with.
Nobody said all soldiers were like that, but that is the attitude of much of the leadership far too often. Whatever it takes to win.
One show I enjoy watching is "Rome" and one reason for that is you get to see quite clearly that soldiering was a way of employment. If you were willing to put your life on the line for the king, your reward or payment was the spoils. The men women and children as slaves and prostitutes, household possessions and so on. That mentality has always been used in war as motivation because after all your asking people to die for you if necessary.
It hasn't got a thing to do with being offended. It has to do with who I am having a "discussion" with.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
It is rather interesting that the only folks who have ever attacked me personally on any forum claimed to be Christian. I have discussed with Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics and atheists and those who simply don't care and it has been only so called Christians who have made personal attacks. That is a fact and I leave it up to others to decide their own opinions on that issue.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Ted;753978 wrote: It is rather interesting that the only folks who have ever attacked me personally on any forum claimed to be Christian. I have discussed with Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics and atheists and those who simply don't care and it has been only so called Christians who have made personal attacks. That is a fact and I leave it up to others to decide their own opinions on that issue.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are the one who made the disrespectful remarks. Don't try this ploy because I rarely see you disagree with anyone other than a Christian.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are the one who made the disrespectful remarks. Don't try this ploy because I rarely see you disagree with anyone other than a Christian.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
The Law
Clint:-6
I've made a comment based on facts. You have yet to address those facts. No ploy here.
BTW It is not all Christians who have done so. In fact I have a very close internet friend who is very fundamentalist and yet we can and have agreed to disagree and we still carry on civil discussion. In fact we email each other often. I have hundreds of Christian friends who have no problem in getting along with me. In fact they see no problem with my thinking. Some of them are professors at the Vancouver School of Theology.
Now I will leave the conclusions that one can draw from the personal attack situation up to others to make up their own opinions.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I've made a comment based on facts. You have yet to address those facts. No ploy here.
BTW It is not all Christians who have done so. In fact I have a very close internet friend who is very fundamentalist and yet we can and have agreed to disagree and we still carry on civil discussion. In fact we email each other often. I have hundreds of Christian friends who have no problem in getting along with me. In fact they see no problem with my thinking. Some of them are professors at the Vancouver School of Theology.
Now I will leave the conclusions that one can draw from the personal attack situation up to others to make up their own opinions.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Law
Very well.:-6
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.