Predestination

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:51 pm

Ted;741814 wrote: theia:-6

In ancient times anyone who was seen to be special, such as Caesar, Buddha, Pharaoh etc., were said to have come from a virgin birth. It was a way of saying that this individual is and was special. Did the virgin birth of Jesus actually happen. No, we know who was involved, probably, and the how. Nothing has changed in that respect in human history.

To make Jesus even more special we have the angels, the heavenly host announcing his birth. This was a oneupmanship over over Caesar who was Lord, God, God from God, Savior of the world, son of God etc. But Caesar didn't have angels at his birth.

Shalom

Ted:-6

At present, I believe in the Virgin Birth but it's really interesting to hear another viewpoint, particularly when it's new to me. Thank you, Ted.

theia · Post by **theia** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:08 am

Jester;741934 wrote: Absolute 100% miracle, nothing less.

Yes, Jester...thank you

Post by **spot** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:13 am

Jester;741544 wrote: Uhm no, not really, but how much did the Lord need to do to harden an already stone hard heart?If I wrote a modern history which said the Lord dimmed the intellect of the President in order to bring home to His chosen people the consequence of whoring after false gods, despoiling the planet and stealing from their neighbours you'd treat my writing as commentary, but when you get the same thing in the bible you treat it as revealed truth through an act of belief on your part. The revealed truth part is wonderful, I too think the bible's revealed truth but through interpretation rather than dogmatic pronouncement. Belief's a self-imposed shackle on the imagination and the imagination is all that exists.

Here's my take on predestination, since that's what bepps is interested in discussing.

I'm a shape drawn on a surface. From left to right I perceive time, from top to bottom my mind has no awareness at all, my mind at any moment is a point on that surface. Events and choices shift me up and down on the surface as my mind experiences time. My mind recognizes a start and an end to its journey. Where my mind ends up on that surface depends on the events my mind experiences and the choices my mind makes during that journey in time.

Applying judgement can define a destination on the boundary of that shape as good or bad, saved or perished, sheep or goat. My mind can choose to try to reach a given destination even though my shape is predetermined. Outside of time - in eternity, if you like - I am that entire shape even though my mind within time is unaware of that full extent of my being. Is my mind justified by aiming at a given point on the edge of that shape and reaching it? Perhaps that's its purpose, perhaps that's a futile game it plays but whether it strives or whether it experiences passively has no effect on my unchanging predestined eternal shape.

Whether you have a free will depends on what you're looking at, the mind's point or the eternal being. Spiritual exploration involves standing off the surface and taking a new perspective from which the shape and the surroundings can be seen.

Post by **spot** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:17 pm

Perhaps I need to add some background but I'd rather do it with two video presentations rather than write chapters. You'll need to set two hours aside for this. When you have the time, there's What We Still Don't Know - Martin Rees followed by The Primacy of Consciousness - Peter Russell. The Peter Russell I like because he's the first person I've seen saying a couple of statements I've tried putting over to people and never been sufficiently persuasive about. A couple of his conjectures I'm not sure of - that doesn't mean he's misinforming anyone though.