The Grace of God

Discuss the Christian Faith.
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Raven
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The Grace of God

Post by Raven »

Clint wrote: Archeological discoveries in recent years have done anything but disprove the accuracy of Biblical accounts of history. As I walked through the Tells of Israel, I was impressed with the fact that they are still being unearthed. Not all that there is to know has even been brought to the light of day, let alone, found its place in the huge puzzle it is a piece of. What has been placed in the puzzle gives credence to the Bible. It isn’t the other way around.

The links you provided are more evidence to me that we are in the infancy of discovery. To discount the Bible by calling it all allegory is to not recognize how little even the most educated among us knows. It reminds me that God is beyond my ability to comprehend and that I should take at face value, the things he has clearly revealed. He has clearly given us the Scriptures and as you say, if they are good enough for Jesus, they are good enough for me.

As one progresses along the curve of learning, I think it is easier to say that because the subject is so complex, it is all allegory. My fear is that once stated, that could be the apex of the curve. To me, declaring to those who are less learned that it is all allegory is a dangerous thing to do. I think it is equally dangerous to say it doesn’t contain any allegory at all.

I am learning. I’m neither well informed on this subject, nor am I uninformed. I am simply awe struck by the vastness of it and how it always points in the same direction.
I'm with you! I firmly believe that we could search our whole lives for God, and still only find the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. But what a tip, eh? Knowing what He has chosen to reveal of Himself thus far, I'm betting He's saving the best bit for last! LOL! It's funny how He chooses to reveal bits of Himself. Most of what I've learned has come through scripture. But when I got stuck a time or two with certain aspects, I came across a WONDERFUL book called 'Congregation'. Have you read it by any chance? It's a compilation of essays by the leading jewish authors of our time, on each book of the old testament. I highly recommend it as it has made such an impact on my understanding of God. I mean who better to explain certain things, than the people who knew Him first?
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

kensloft wrote: They just sold a piece of jesus toast for umpteen thousand on the Internet recently?.

Do you think if the toast flakes and it reveals Mary underneath... would that count? Do you think that would be a good investment? Or bet?

Their bosses tell them that their bosses are smarter than your bosses because they and only they are in touch with god. We can read better than you so it only makes sense that we have a better reading of the understanding of exactly what it was that Jesus said!

When people have the means and ways with which to lauch wars that will give their superiority the ability to conclusively control the citizens then you know they are going to use it. The problem is when the oppressed get the same tools and turn it on them. Once they figure out that they both can do the same damage then maybe they'll talk a little more.

Have the ten percenters telling you what to do and then send the 90%ers into the fray. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. However, I don't think that the numbers that I used are anywhere near being accurate but for the sake of jocularity... ? Know too many clerics to say anything bad about their beliefs. Too many wonderful people believing that they are making a difference and in many ways they are. That there is a problem is what should be looked at and is what needs to be addressed.

Otherwise it's back to square one.
I'm really hoping you're joking about the jesus toast. I cant think of anything that would make me sicker! :yh_sick Why do people believe such trype? How long do you think it will be before miracles are credited to it? It's like the TV preachers/cons and their 'miracle' hankies!
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

Clint :-6

Here is my response to that site that you kindly provided.

The material I am using comes from a later published date and has included a review of much of the data that this site provides.

What I will do is provide a few quotes and you will know precisely where I stand.

"The Bible Unearthed" by I. Finkelstein and N Ashaer Silberman published in 2001 after surveying all of the work done to date and their own findings.

P23 ". . . much of the biblical narrative is a product of the hopes, fears and ambitions of the kingdom of Judah, culminating in the reign of King Josiah at the end of the seventh century B.C.E."

"Although these stories may have been based on certain historical kernels, they primarily reflect the idology and the world-view of the writiers."

"It is a story not of one, but two chosen kingdoms, which together complrise the historical roots of the people of Israel."

p64 "Sites mentioned in the Exodus narrative are real. A few were well known and apparently occupied in much earlier periods and much later periods--after the kingdom of Juday was established, when the text of the biblical narrative was set down in writing for the first time. Unfortunately for those seeking a historical Exodus, they were unoccupied precisely at the time they reportedly played a role in the events of the wondering of the children of Israel in the wilderness.'

P 70 "The saga of Israel's Exodus from Egypt is neither historical truth nor literary fiction. It is a powerful expression of memory and hope born in a world in the midst of changes. The confrontation between Moses and the pharoah merroed the momentous confrontation between the youn King Josiah and the newly crowned Pharaoh Necho. To pin this biblical image down to a single date is to betray the story's deepest meaning. Passover proves to be not a single event but a continuing experience of nation resistance against the powers that be."

The site you mention makes very many references to the Hyksos and this expulsion may have led to the creation of the Exodus story. Or the Exodus could have been a small family unit or a small tribe. The fact of the matter is rather simple there is simply no evidence along the supposed route of the Exodus to indicate a large group of folks. For that matter not even a small group. If a simple wooden structure will leave a footprint that lasts thousands of years in the desert such a large group of folks would have left a rather large and enduring footprint. It simply does not exist.

I think that references to kerners of history do explain the rest.

As far as the invasion of Canaan goes there is no evidence of a massive invasion but a long term migration of folks both from outside the country and from withing. It is known that there was a split within the land of Canaan and those who turned to monotheism moved to the highlands and established their own communities which eventually became Israel. In other words the Jewish people came from a mixture of Canaanites and imigrants from outside.

Generally the work done at Jericho by Albright and others has been discredited lately and Jericho was an unimhabited and derelict city at the time of Joshua.

As far as the patriarchs go there is simply no evidence they ever existed by they may have been created during the midrashic writing. Moses himself is even questionable as there is no evidence for him either.

This is my view and rather then demeaning the Bible for me it has made it an extrememly powerful book through which God does speak to us and that was its intention. It was never intended to be taken as literal history.

Other then the additional evidence provided to me by the later scholars such as Silberman and Finkelstein and Borg and Crossan as well as a host of other a lot of this I learned back in the 1960's. The more I have read the more estaablished has my position become.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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telaquapacky
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The Grace of God

Post by telaquapacky »

I was visiting the church where my parents attend (a different denom from the one God led me to) and heard a guest speaker who was a renouned scholar and also much into the "new theology." In the course of this talk, three times I counted he said to the congregation, "You don't really believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, do you?" I haven't set foot in there since.

If Jesus did not raise Lazarus, how do I know He can raise me? Why worship a "good teacher" who isn't God? And if Jesus didn't raise Lazarus, how am I to receive the supernatural power from God to help me live my daily life in Christ? Our faith is not about talk but about power. Where's the power? Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Where's the Spirit? I am not interested in men's ideas. They can't put healthy, living tissue back on my dead bones.

Ted, you say on one hand that the Bible is myth and midrash, that many of the people said to have authored it, or who figure in it's stories never really existed because scholarly men have proved otherwise- while on the other hand, it's a great source of inspiration and knowledge of God. Isn't that double-talk? Nobody wants to judge you, but this isn't the way I came to know Christ, and it sounds like something subtly and insidiously corrosive to faith. It sounds like something designed to glorify men and their prestigious scholarly endeavors, and elevate the ideas of human beings as if they were equal to the thoughts of God.

And really, all the promises God made to us are packed in those Bible stories. If the stories aren't true, how can we trust the promises? Ted, if you are willing to accept, I have a challenge for you: say something to me that strenghtens my hope in the resurrection. Convince me there is a supernatural power that can make me holy, something I cannot do for myself. Tell me how I can have a personal relationship with a real, personal God. Can you do that?
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

Very well said. I had a similar experience in a 'church'. Three times, this guy said "We serve an ever changing God. Only His character remains the same." For the first time in my life, I walked out of a sermon. I havent stepped back into a Church, since. He too, was a guest speaker. According to the book I read, every other page says "I change not." I choose to believe the book. Take for example, the angels. Has anyone ever wondered why a plan of salvation wasnt thought up for them too? I think that it cant. The one sin we cant be forgiven, is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Maybe that is what they somehow did, when in the course of their heavenly duties, they chose to believe Lucifer, rather than God, whom they knew, far better than we do. And if that sin cant be forgiven them, then we cant be forgiven it either. God after all, is just. So, what if not believing the Word, which after all, was written by the Spirit of God, can be considered the same way? Look what happens when we choose NOT to believe God. ie. the garden. Maybe thats why some people need to try to dispute it so stringently. Did not Lucifer say in the garden, "you will not die!" After God specifically said they would? How is that any different from someone saying "It's not true." When God told us specifically it was? Cant see any diff at all there, myself. Can you? :-6 I see we believe in the same Lord.
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

telaguapaky/Raven :-6

First of all I have never said the Bible is not true. Though there are parts of the Bible I do not believe describe God.

You have fallen into the traditional trap that resulted from the reformation and the renaissance; that if something is not historically factual it is not true.

There is an ancient First Nations quote that comes from Marcus Borg and goes something like this: asked if a particular story was true or false his reply was something like "I don't know if it actually happened this way but I know that the story is true". The scientific method and the rationality of the renaissance has completely overlooked the fact that truth can come in many forms besides historical fact. The the story of Adam and Eve is a myth does not mean the story is not true. The story is indeed true and gives us some truths about the very nature of man just as does the legend of Noah. They present great truths about God and man.

If one considers, for example Dickens' story "Oliver Twist" we can see the same thing. "Oliver Twist" is a novel. It is pure fiction. However it is most assuredly true. It gives us the truth about life in Dickens' time and that is precisely what he was wanting to do.

Telequapaky, you asked if I can give you hope. I can give you the same hope that I have found. You see Christianity is not about belief, dogma or doctrine. With some 22 000 Christian denominations which dogma or doctrine would you consider true? Christianity is about living in an ever developing transforming relationship with the Risen Lord if one is a Christian and about living in aan ever developing transforming relationship with God if one is not. Jesus has called us to a new way of being, a new way of living. That is what the fundamentalists refer to as "being born again". Now I have experienced the Risen Lord several times in my life. I have experienced his unconditional love and grace.

I will give you three quotes that will show what I mean.

Micah 6:* "He has told you, O mortal, what is good; an what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"

Matt.22:37ff "He said to him "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and great commandment. And a second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" (and very important) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Matt 25:31ff I will only quote a small part you can read the remainder for yourself.

"Then the king will say to those at his right hand, come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. . . And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me". Who are members of His family? We are all God's children, every humanbeing.

The Bible is for Christians the "Word of God" because God speaks to us through the very human words in the Bible. It is not the "Word of God" by virtue of its authorship. So we let God speak to us through the Bible and through prayer, meditation, discussion, reading of commentaries and other great books by Christian thinkers past and present and by using our intelligence that God gave us we come to understand what HE is saying.

Jesus said that we would know the truth and it would set us free. I have accepted Him at his word and the true freedom is beyond description.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: telaguapaky/Raven :-6

First of all I have never said the Bible is not true. Though there are parts of the Bible I do not believe describe God.

You have fallen into the traditional trap that resulted from the reformation and the renaissance; that if something is not historically factual it is not true.

There is an ancient First Nations quote that comes from Marcus Borg and goes something like this: asked if a particular story was true or false his reply was something like "I don't know if it actually happened this way but I know that the story is true". The scientific method and the rationality of the renaissance has completely overlooked the fact that truth can come in many forms besides historical fact. The the story of Adam and Eve is a myth does not mean the story is not true. The story is indeed true and gives us some truths about the very nature of man just as does the legend of Noah. They present great truths about God and man.
The more I look at this, the more convinced I am that the answer doesn’t reside in the opinions of scholars. I can find scholars who capably argue (in my opinion) that the Bible contains very little midrash. I’m sure you are aware of that.

The events of the sacrifice of the Passover lamb that lead to the freedom of the Israelites and the sacrifice of The Passover Lamb resulting in our freedom were orchestrated by the same Being. They are inseparable. Are they both midrashic? IF they are both midrash, how do we KNOW the latter actually happened in a way that fulfilled prophesy, reconciled with God’s Law and satisfied the debt we owe?

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain the whole book of Isaiah dated to before Christ. The book of Isaiah in the scrolls is almost identical to the version in the Codex Leningrad which dates around 1200 years later. Since there is no known reason to think that the scribes responsible for the Codex Leningrad did a more accurate job on Isaiah than they did on any other book, we can be confident it is a good representation of the original Hebrew text. This is only one example of how God has preserved His word for our consumption. If God can preserve His written word this well, why shouldn’t we think He did the same with oral history?

In light of your response to telaguapaky and Raven, I’m beginning to wonder if your interpretation of “midrash” is actually that the Bible means what it says when read literally and that it has even more meaning when you read it through Hebrew eyes. Are you speaking to the fact that much of the Bible can mean more than one thing without one being right and the others being wrong? Do you give “midrash” and “allegory” the same meaning?

I’m still not able to spend much time here. My parents are ill and that is requiring me to travel. I’m also trying to find employment, which I think would be easier if I dyed my hair.
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

Clint :-6

The Bible was never meant to be read literally and the early Hebrews new that.

The story of Jesus birth is midrash. When the apostles and evangelists had come to believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah they then searched the scriptures to seek out the prophesies that foretold the coming of the Messiah and the story of Jesus birth was written to conform to the ancient scriptures.

Prophesy was never written to predict events decades or millenia in the future. Prophesy was written for the folks of the day to call them back to God and to make limited local predictions. In some cases it is likely that the prophesy was written after the events and this holds true of parts of Isaiah which by the way was written by three authors rather than one.

It is call haggadag midrash. It was a style of writing and interpreting and involved a great deal of metaphor because even today we lack the language to define or describe the Divine.

The important issue in the Christian faith is to be in an ever growing relationship with the Risen Lord. It is not about a belief or following a particula dogma or doctrine it is about that relationship with the Risen Lord. As far as I am concerned the traditional view has been discredited a long time ago.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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telaquapacky
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Post by telaquapacky »

Dear Brother Ted,

You chose excellent verses in answer to my challenge. Where we differ is that the verses you quoted- great as they are- could not give me hope if I thought they were the mere opinions of men without the power and authority of God behind them. Men promise all kinds of things (especially at election time). Men throughout history, using only their smarts have said some exceedingly true things- we call them philosophers. They have good ideas. However good their intentions, there is no indication they are backed with kind of power and authority it takes to save a human soul. Even when men sincerely believe they or God will deliver what they have promised, unless the thing truly is of God, nothing comes of it.Ted wrote: With some 22 000 Christian denominations which dogma or doctrine would you consider true?I come from the view you call “traditional.” The reformers used the term, Sola Scriptura. The Canon of Scripture consists of 66 books. The men who set them apart were guided supernaturally by God as were the men who wrote them.

Midrash are commentaries about the Canon, or articles about religious subjects, which learned men have written using their own smarts and sometimes dim glimmers of inspiration. They may add incongruous things according to the religious tastes and attitudes of their times- for example, the Sabbath regulations of the Jews at the time of Christ found in the Talmud. Midrash is useful only to let us know what people used to believe, whether they were right or wrong. No midrash or any human writing is equal to the Canon. No other human writing has the degree of inspiration and authority the Canon has. “Sola Scriptura” means that every doctrine must pass the test of Scripture. Anything that contrasts with Scripture is (Buzzzz!) Wrong. Anything men have written that doesn’t contradict Scripture is a nice idea, but maybe true, maybe not- don’t trust your soul to it.

To answer your question about what denomination I consider true, the denomination whose doctrines best harmonize all the apparent contradictions of Scripture is the truest one- the church whose body of doctrine has the fewest verses in Scripture they have to pretend aren’t there, or pretend that they have no authority or are Midrash. If your group says it’s all midrash, that wouldn’t score very high.

Clint gave an excellent example: The first Passover was a prophetic figure of the Cross. If either one of those events were myth, the whole concept of Christ’s substitutionary death no longer has the power and authority of a real, Historical God behind it. It then becomes a clever idea of men that may or may not be true. Such words might sound nice, but they would not have the power to save.

Ted wrote: The story of Jesus birth is midrash. When the apostles and evangelists had come to believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah they then searched the scriptures to seek out the prophesies that foretold the coming of the Messiah and the story of Jesus birth was written to conform to the ancient scriptures. The Messiah is prophesied all throughout Scripture. When the real Messiah came, the manner of His coming and the nature of His mission were consistent with the prophecies in every detail. There was no need to make up clever stories to make Jesus match the Messiah of Scripture. If there were, either He would not be the Messiah, or the original prophecies would themsleves be lies and we would be dead in our sins, deceived by the lies of clever men. Ted wrote: As far as I am concerned the traditional view has been discredited a long time ago. As I said, you and I have a different view of the meaning of the word “tradition.” To me, all of the writings the Christian Church has used to support doctrine which are outside the Canon of Scripture, including the councils, the writings of the Church Fathers,etc are all tradition. There is a church that regards the traditions as of equal authority to the Canon of Scripture. This is only part of a syndrome of attributing to mere fallen men authority, prerogatives and virtues that belong exclusively to God. Because they take the traditions as equal to the Canon, they may do so by either elevating the traditions or denigrating the Canon. This can be done overtly or craftily, but the result is the same. Errors are introduced in the garb of sanctity that can lead to great harm to the cause of Christ.

Besides Sola Scriptura, there is another model the reformers held, and I cherish, which is practically lost today, called Historicism. Historicism has to do with the fulfillment of prophecy in keeping with God’s plan of salvation. This view is that Bible prophecy is not some faraway future event (Futurism) or some long ago past event (Preterism), but that it is in the process of unfolding throughout the course of history, and we all participate. The books of Daniel and Revelation have some very clear warnings for us living today, as we live in the midst of the final events they describe.

The power named as the beast in Revelation would have an interest in undermining the authority and trustworthiness of that book, and other books of Scripture so to smoke screen their identity. These are the reasons why I am resistant to any attempt, scholarly as it may be, to undermine the authority of Scripture and the truth of prophecy.
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

telaquapacky :-6

After that rather lengthy post all I can say is that we will have to agree to disagree. Ancient Haggadah Midrash was more then a style of interpretation it was also a style of writing.

I liked your use of "apparent contradictions". I'm pleased that you think they are apparent but most scholars are aware of the contradictions and clearly state they cannot be explained away. Though I have seen some beautiful creative dancing in an attempt to do so.

So apparently you believe in a God that not only condones war crimes but espouses them as in Num 31.

We will definitely have to agree to disagree.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by capt_buzzard »

Arguements by the pharassies are still with us today in 2005. Its a long long time since He walked this earth. His fame is still with us.
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telaquapacky
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Post by telaquapacky »

Dear Brother Ted,

No matter that we disagree. We are still brothers, in fact, our particular disagreement gives opportunity for lively discussion (which is what we’re here for, I presume) if you’re game. I don’t have to convince you, and you don’t have to convince me. In our faith, a “challenge” doesn’t always imply enmity- it can be a way one brother sharpens another “as iron shapeneth iron.” Who can learn anything from sitting all day only with people who agree with them or by holding court with rapt admirers who never ask a tough question?

Ted wrote: So apparently you believe in a God that not only condones war crimes but espouses them as in Num 31.Regarding Numbers 31, neither you nor I worship a God who condones war crimes. Numbers 31 tells how the Lord ordered the children of Israel through Moses to punish the Moabites and the Midianites for what they did to Israel. One might say that a modern analogy would be the Allied Powers in WWII punishing the Nazis for what they did to the Jews (And a list of other nations). But that analogy would be inadequate because Numbers describes a unique time in history when a nation on earth, Israel, had a real Theocracy. Israel was not led by a man who merely thought he was God’s mouthpiece, like an Islamic Government. Israel was led by Moses who actually was in daily, face to face contact with the King and Creator of the universe.

Secondly, the Israelites were not merely believers like you and I, who study religious writings and grope our way in the dim light toward a God we have not seen or heard. God had appeared to the Israelites and had worked large scale miracles like parting the Red Sea. He had disciplined them directly with some punishments you and I would consider harsh. But God needed a people who were His own, to carry a message of holiness, and the family line of a Savior to the world. The Israelites did not like it, nor did they always cooperate, but God was fitting them for eternal life- and only in this way could God use them to benefit you and me.

Sin results in death. Idolatry is one of the worst sins because it is rebellion against the Creator and Life Giver. God does not tell us what to do and what not to do because He hates to see us have fun, or because He wants to bully and push us around. He is a loving Parent whose only desire is our better good and most lasting happiness. Sin is the cause of all war and the origin of all unhappiness and sickness and suffering. When there was a true Theocracy, as there was until the time of the Judges, God disciplined his people as sons and daughters, and used this people He was purifying to punish the sins of other nations. There is no nation on the earth today that has the privilege, or the burden that the Israelites had then.

Besides being very sinful, idolatrous nations, Moab and Midian had made the fatal mistake of leading Israel into adultery and idolatry. The Midianites in particular, at the suggestion of Balaam, a backslidden prophet of God, had led the Israelites into idolatry, by sending voluptuous women into the Israelite camp to seduce the men, wreck their marriages and lead them to worshipping the pagan god, Baal. God determined that unless the Midianites were wiped out, the future of His people and His mission of salvation to all the peoples on earth was in jeopardy. This was not a war crime. It was an act of justice and a benefit to you and I far greater than the Allied defeat of the Nazis in WWII. The Word says it, and I believe it.

Ted wrote: I liked your use of "apparent contradictions". I'm pleased that you think they are apparent but most scholars are aware of the contradictions and clearly state they cannot be explained away. Though I have seen some beautiful creative dancing in an attempt to do so.


Ted, I don’t believe Scripture contradicts itself. What I call “apparent contradictions,” are really paradoxes. The way of true faith finds an explanation of those paradoxes that uplifts God and his Word.

Please feel free to challenge me with the most difficult challenges you can think of. I welcome it! Call it dancing if you want. I'll put on my tap shoes!
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

"Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom." I have to agree with telaquapacky and clint.

I'm afraid dear Ted, that puts me, not only in a 'traditionalist' setting, but an apostolic one as well.

Sorry Ted. But the GOD I worship and love with all my heart, mind, soul and strength, is rather brutal at times. I will never be able to claim an understanding of HIM. But HE understands me, just fine. The God I worship, you approach with trembling. And thankful to His Son, that we may approach at all! For it is in Christ, that we may put our confidence. And remember gentlemen, "where two or more are gathered in My Name, there be I, also."

I wish to thank each of you, for a very invigorating discussion! :-6

Raven
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

Jesus told us that we would know the truth and it would set us free. That is something that I have found in living in an evergrowing transforming relationship with the Risen Christ. I no longer 'fear' God in the sense of what might happen to me but I do 'fear' Him in the sense of awe.

Other then that I live a very confident and comfortable and enjoyable life within the relationship with the Risen Christ. I trust God completely so I have no reason to fear him. He is in addition to son of God,; friend, companion, fellow traveller, brother, confident and helpmate etc.

To preach fear is an abuse of the sacred scriptures and an abuse of our knowledge of the God we see manifested in Jesus the Christ.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by Ted »

telaquapacky :-6

Due to the fact that I am visually impaired and in effect going blind I prefer to read shorter posts. I try to keep mine short but sometimes my big mouth gets in the way.

If we look at numbers 31 and I have no intentions of quoting the whole thing as we can both look it up. We see God telling the Hebrews to essentially take no prisoners. They are to kill every man woman and child with one exception which I will get to. Here we see God supposedly giving permission to kill even the small infants who have never had a chance to make any decisions in life. This comes from a God who said that the greatest commandment was to love God and your fellow man and that everything else hung on these two? He also told us to love our enemies. Also from the God who said that shalt not kill.

Now to the other point. He told the soldiers that they could keep, for themselves all the women who were virgins. He certainly understood soldiers quite well. Let's examin this. These women are captured and a certain number turned over to the priests etc. The rest the soldiers can keep for wives. If they don't like it and it doesn't work out they can then send these women away.

At this time in history a "used woman" had nothing. She had no chance of ever getting a husband or making a living for herself or any children that might have resulted from the Hebrew soldiers. They were sent away to either tough it out or die

So God apparently gives the go ahead to kill innocent children and other. He also allows the soldiers to keep and rape the wormen who are virgins. This amounts to abuse of people and by todays standards and standard from a way back to war crimes.

Was there any effort to convert these folks? Was there any effort to help them see the light? And if there was why should they believe the Israelites just because they say so. These folks were following their own faith which they new to be correct since their own sacred writings told them so.

Now we have a God who not only condones war crimes but decides that He doesn't have to follow the civil rules of recognizing the sovereignty of another country.

This view says to me that because God is God he can do whatever He pleases no matter what rules he has created because He is God. Now this God wants people to trust and worship Him. Such a God is a monster.

Now I've checked this out with a theologian and several scholarly writings and all are agreed that this does not represent the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This story in Num does not come from God but is purely a redactors addition to justify mass murder and war crimes.

Shalom

Ted. :-6
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Post by Ted »

telaquapacky :-6

As far as scholars trying to glorify men. Nothing could be further from the truth. God gave man his intelligence and it would indeed be a sin not to use it for the good of man.

These men and many others have read the Bible, considered the history, the science, the archaeology and the every growing fund of knowledge that we have today. They realized that the Bible could no long fit in with the reality that they saw and see around them.

Their choice would be either to disgregard the knowledge they have gained and the reality they see and stick with stories that if taken literally amount to pure nonsense. Thus they would even commit the sin of not using the intellegence they were given. There second choice was to search out the profound truths that the Bible presents and try to make sense of it in todays world and thus continue to give the Christian faith the position it deserves in the world and allow the world to continue to worship God.

To suggest that they are doing this for their own glory is pure nonsense. They are indeed fine Christian men and women seeking the truth of God and by realizing the the Bible is largely haggadah midrash and uses a lot of metaphor they have been able to maintain the credibility of the Bible today.

I know several of these folks personally and they are indeed fine Christians who are living in an ever growing transforming relationship with the Risen Lord.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by koan »

Raven wrote: "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom."

And remember gentlemen, "where two or more are gathered in My Name, there be I, also."




There is nothing to fear. Since the Lord created us all we are always gathered in His name.
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Post by Raven »

koan wrote: There is nothing to fear. Since the Lord created us all we are always gathered in His name.
Please dont misunderstand my use of the word 'fear'.

I'm just quoting a book. My understanding of the passage means more like a healthy sense of awe and respect. Not the kind of fear one feels if threatened. Or even phobic.

As for the other quote, it simply refers to any gathering of two or more doing or discussing the Lords business. ie: charity work, scripture reading and discussion, etc...

Yes, the lord did create us all. :-6
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

Jesus told us that we would know the truth and it would set us free. That is something that I have found in living in an evergrowing transforming relationship with the Risen Christ. I no longer 'fear' God in the sense of what might happen to me but I do 'fear' Him in the sense of awe.

Other then that I live a very confident and comfortable and enjoyable life within the relationship with the Risen Christ. I trust God completely so I have no reason to fear him. He is in addition to son of God,; friend, companion, fellow traveller, brother, confident and helpmate etc.

To preach fear is an abuse of the sacred scriptures and an abuse of our knowledge of the God we see manifested in Jesus the Christ.

Shalom

Ted :-6
I'm not preaching fear. I'm quoting scripture that you just think is fiction anyway.

It's in Proverbs. As a matter of fact, it's proverbs 1:7. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise wisdom and instruction." King Solomon wrote it. You know, the son of King David, author of Psalms. But of course, it's all midrash, to you.

To me, the scriptures are truth. You're not the first person to try to convince me they are not. I'm not unaware of the so called 'contradictions'. I'm also aware of who wrote the many books which compile the bible. I've spent the last 20 years of my life studying it. My teachers and fellow researchers are as well versed in it as you say yours are. Unlike yours, my GOD doesnt change. I do. I grow closer to Him. He's been there the whole time. More like a parent, than a friend. I'm not so equal to God, to be able to call Him brother. I'm HIS daughter. HIS SON is my brother. Speaking of suns.......you know the big bright one that makes us blind if we look at it too long? My God put it there y'know. It doesnt seem to bother Him at all. I'm sorry that you cant reconcile the fact that God just is. He does many things that are beyond our understanding. If you have a hard time with God in numbers, it must REALLY be hard for you in deuteronomy. I think thats the hardest. I feel thats where we bump head on, into His HOLINESS.

Dont mistake my sense of humor and simplifying things as a lack of knowledge or ignorance. Like you, I'm just putting forth my own opinion on the same material. I just have a different take on it, as you. Thats all.
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

I have every respect for you and your position. I simply don't agree.

First of all I never said the Bible does not present profound truths about God and man.

Secondly I have never said that God changes. What does change is our perception of Him.

Try to convert you! Never. I do not desire that all folks think as I do. I present my case as you do and am willing to argue a point. I live my life as a Christian and am recognized by others as such.

Perhaps I have a few more years on you but after all of my education I have learned how really little we as human know, including myself, and how much there is to learnand time is so short.

I happen to believe the case I present is valid and stand by it. As in your case I have a great many supporters or perhaps I should say mentors and among them scholars, theologians and clergy who agree with what I have been saying or perhaps more to the point I agree with what they have been saying.

Now I don't have a problem with Num 31. It presents an evil that does not come from God but from the redactors who tried to justify the atrocities of some of the Hebrews by claiming it came from God.

You see I was raised in a very fundamentalist/literalist church. I've been there and done that and found it highly unsatisfactory. So I used the intelligence that God gave me in my search for His truth. I have relied on the Holy Spirit for guidance and He has not led me astray even once.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by telaquapacky »

Thank you, Ted- you have raised some very interesting points. I am sorry to hear about your vision problem and will keep it in my prayers, and use larger print. (Is this helpful?)

You know about exegesis and eisegesis. Exegesis means “reading out,” in other words, reading out of a Scripture the meaning the author intended. Eisegesis means “reading in.” or reading into a Scripture things that are not there and the author did not intend.

To avoid reading into any Scripture things that the original author did not intend, we need to consider what the same author has written on related topics in other places in Scripture. Moses wrote in Numbers 31 us that 32,000 virgins were taken, and listed them with the plunder distributed to the Levites and soldiers. You assumed that God condoned the rape and abuse of these women. But Moses wrote in Exodus and Leviticus that God prohibits rape. God gave through Moses in Deuteronomy 21:11-14, fair, moral and ethical instructions for what an Israelite man must do if he is attracted to a captive woman and wants her for a wife (but the law of Moses discourages intermarrying with pagan cultures Lev 21:14, Deut 32:2). Moses obediently wrote other laws to encourage the Israelites to treat the foreigners who lived among them fairly, and glorify God in their eyes.Moses wrote: Deuteronomy 4:5,6

See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering and take possession of it. Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.”Numbers 31 could be interpreted as an act of genocide and cruelty, or, if it is viewed in the light of everything else in the books Moses wrote, we can avoid making assumptions that would vilify God and besmirch His reputation. You are viewing Numbers 31 through an interpretation that portrays God in a way opposite to the God you and I know, and on the basis of that interpretation, you have rejected the Scripture. But the problem isn’t with the Scripture, the problem is with the interpretation.Ted wrote: You see I was raised in a very fundamentalist/literalist church. I've been there and done that and found it highly unsatisfactory.I appreciate that.I understand you better now, and I don't blame you. But just because people call themselves fundamentalists or literalists doesn’t mean they have the true interpretation of the Bible. Don’t throw out God’s word because of the faulty interpretations of it by men.
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Post by Ted »

talaquapacky :-6

I have re-read both Numbers 31 and Deut. 21:10ff. This only adds to my assertions that this is a war crime. The women may or may not have a say as to whether or not they have sexual relations with their captor. If she is not satisfactory she can be sent away as a free person. As I said in those days a "used women" was nothing and had nothing.

I am not the least bit convinced by your argument on this particular section of the Bible. As I have said it does not describe the God and Father or our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a later addition by the redactors to justify abominable behaviour and in the name of God at that.

It is also well known that Moses had little or nothing to do with the writing of the Pentateuch. It was transmitted by oral tradition for hundreds of years until it was finally compiled during the Babylonian exile. At this point several stories were used in creating the Pentateuch.

As for the reading of scripture there are several things that are important; the culture of the writer, the history surrounding his time, the belief systems, the purpose of the writer, the writers ability to conceptualize, the language, the social milieu in which the writer lived, the style of writing which for many ancient Jewish sacred writings was haggadah midrash. Without some understanding of these factors one can never read what the author intended but at best makes a guess.

My view of scripture is rather simple. It is man's response to his experience of the Divine. He was inspired to write but he was not dictated to. He wrote as best he could with the limitations that he had and ancient Hebrew was not very capable of writing about things in the abstract only in the concrete so that had to write about what they knew and saw in their very primitive language.

The Bible becomes for Christians the "Word of God" not by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that God does speak to us through the very human words in the Bible. In fact a close reading of the entire Bible will clearly show the development of the concept of God. There are several theologies in the OT and it is not until the advent of Yeshua of Nazareth that we in fact see the true nature of God.

It is at this point that we see and end to the holiness code and a change to understanding the unconditional love and grace of God. If they are not uncondition then they are not love and grace.

There are kernels of history throughout the OT but it is not and never was intended to be an historical book. It was and always will be a purely religious book that uses many methods to present the profound truths about God.

The OT must be read in light of the N T. We must learn through study, prayer, meditation, discussion, and the great writings of Christians past and present to discern the very word of God in the very human words of the Bible.

There are three authorities in the church: The Bible, the counsels and tradition. When one is reading the gospels one is not reading a biography but the developing traditions of the church to the time of the evangelist who wrote the book again keeping in mind all of those factors mentioned above.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by telaquapacky »

Ted wrote: There are three authorities in the church: The Bible, the counsels and tradition. When one is reading the gospels one is not reading a biography but the developing traditions of the church to the time of the evangelist who wrote the book again keeping in mind all of those factors mentioned above.Perhaps you are right about the campaign against the Midianites. What is your opinion about the Inquisition?
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Post by Ted »

telaquapacky :-6

The inquisition is another evil committed in the name of God. That is the short answer but there is far more to the inquisition then that. However the inquisition is an historical fact whereas scholars feel that the story in Num 31 is a fictional addition put there by the redactors and not part of the original writing.
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Post by kensloft »

Ted wrote: telaquapacky :-6

The inquisition is another evil committed in the name of God. That is the short answer but there is far more to the inquisition then that. However the inquisition is an historical fact whereas scholars feel that the story in Num 31 is a fictional addition put there by the redactors and not part of the original writing.
That's right. Blame it on the Catholics.
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

I have every respect for you and your position. I simply don't agree.

First of all I never said the Bible does not present profound truths about God and man.

Secondly I have never said that God changes. What does change is our perception of Him.

Try to convert you! Never. I do not desire that all folks think as I do. I present my case as you do and am willing to argue a point. I live my life as a Christian and am recognized by others as such.

Perhaps I have a few more years on you but after all of my education I have learned how really little we as human know, including myself, and how much there is to learnand time is so short.

I happen to believe the case I present is valid and stand by it. As in your case I have a great many supporters or perhaps I should say mentors and among them scholars, theologians and clergy who agree with what I have been saying or perhaps more to the point I agree with what they have been saying.

Now I don't have a problem with Num 31. It presents an evil that does not come from God but from the redactors who tried to justify the atrocities of some of the Hebrews by claiming it came from God.

You see I was raised in a very fundamentalist/literalist church. I've been there and done that and found it highly unsatisfactory. So I used the intelligence that God gave me in my search for His truth. I have relied on the Holy Spirit for guidance and He has not led me astray even once.

Shalom

Ted :-6
I really do understand you know. I had a hard time with the idea that God would accept a human sacrifice, just because her father opened HIS big mouth and swore an oath to God. And for all our differences, we're still christians and belong to the same house. :-6
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Post by telaquapacky »

Ted wrote: There are three authorities in the church: The Bible, the counsels and tradition. When one is reading the gospels one is not reading a biography but the developing traditions of the church to the time of the evangelist who wrote the book again keeping in mind all of those factors mentioned above.How about the Council of Trent? Do you consider it authoritative?
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Post by Ted »

telaquapacky :-6

As I have said there are three sources of authority in the church: the Sacred Writings, tradition and the councils.

I know what you are getting at but need I remind you that it was one of the councils, the council at Carthage, that put together the canon of scripture.

So we must look at more then one of the authorities. In general there must be agreement between the three. Does this mean the councils don't make errors. Of course not. They are human institutions just as tradition and the Bible. As such all are prone to errors at times. That is why we look to the three and in prayer, meditation, study and discussion and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in getting at the truth.

Now as times change and knowledge changes so do our understandings of God and His purposes. In light of our present day knowledge we must change our understandings of the our faith. Disease was thought to be caused by possession by demons, many accepted the story of creation as historical fact until the theory of evolution has shown us differently. The sun does not stand still for a day. In fact it is the earth moving around the sun that causes day and night and has little to do with the sun standing still. The earth does not stop on its rotations and never has.

So if we look at the councils throughout the years they have given us a lot of positive things and in places they were wrong just as Jesus was wrong at times and so were the Apostles. Not a problem unless of course being a human is a problem.

Now you can go ahead and ask the question about Jesus being wrong. LOL

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by telaquapacky »

Ted wrote: As I have said there are three sources of authority in the church: the Sacred Writings, tradition and the councils.

I know what you are getting at but need I remind you that it was one of the councils, the council at Carthage, that put together the canon of scripture. Carthage had no effect on the Old Testament. Josephus tells us that “no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable” of the OT canon from the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. The Jews accepted no prophets after Malachi. True, Carthage correctly finalized the 27 books of the NT. This doesn’t at all weaken my view of the sacredness of Scripture. If God used Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzar and Sennecherib to fulfill His purposes, He could use Augustine. But as time went on, the subsequent councils became more and more corrupted by power and politics, as things of purely human origin always do. Authority was finished when the ink dried on the last verse of Revelation. That's why adding anything more is forbidden.

Revelation 22:18,19

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

For readers unfamiliar with the council of Trent, it was the apotheosis of the subversion of Christianity by Rome. It condemned and damned to hell anyone who would not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, many of which are baldly contrary to Scripture. Furthermore the brethren at Trent ordered any possible means to punish and silence any dissenters. This approved the burnings and cruelly ingenious tortures of the Inquisition. What the Roman Church wishes to be forgotten and hopes no one will notice, is that they have not, and can not revoke Trent. Their ideology and agenda has never changed, only their method. Why is Trent still revered? Because they attribute to it a divinely unchangeable authority equal to the Bible, just as they do the other councils.

The only way to have a religion that is error-free is to stick to the Bible, and let it interpret itself. Ted wrote: The sun does not stand still for a day. In fact it is the earth moving around the sun that causes day and night and has little to do with the sun standing still. The earth does not stop on its rotations and never has. I’m starting to realize that God works miracles not only to strengthen the weak in faith, but to harden skepticism and separate those who take Him at His word from those who trust the opinions of men.Ted wrote: …Not a problem unless of course being a human is a problem. Being human definitely is a problem, because we are in need of being saved. Only an all-powerful God and a perfect and sinless Savior can save us.

Ted wrote: Now you can go ahead and ask the question about Jesus being wrong. LOLNo question! That says it all.
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: telaquapacky :-6

As I have said there are three sources of authority in the church: the Sacred Writings, tradition and the councils.

I know what you are getting at but need I remind you that it was one of the councils, the council at Carthage, that put together the canon of scripture.

So we must look at more then one of the authorities. In general there must be agreement between the three. Does this mean the councils don't make errors. Of course not. They are human institutions just as tradition and the Bible. As such all are prone to errors at times. That is why we look to the three and in prayer, meditation, study and discussion and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in getting at the truth.

Now as times change and knowledge changes so do our understandings of God and His purposes. In light of our present day knowledge we must change our understandings of the our faith. Disease was thought to be caused by possession by demons, many accepted the story of creation as historical fact until the theory of evolution has shown us differently. The sun does not stand still for a day. In fact it is the earth moving around the sun that causes day and night and has little to do with the sun standing still. The earth does not stop on its rotations and never has.

So if we look at the councils throughout the years they have given us a lot of positive things and in places they were wrong just as Jesus was wrong at times and so were the Apostles. Not a problem unless of course being a human is a problem.

Now you can go ahead and ask the question about Jesus being wrong. LOL

Shalom

Ted :-6
Thats blasphemy. And heresy. Not so long ago, you would've faced being burned at the stake for that.
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Post by kensloft »

pixiepet wrote: How to you view people with no faith..... ??I'm curious.... please don't be offended.... I'm an atheist and probably have no place in this discussion ..... but it never fails to amaze me that people can be so passionate about faith....

I have an aunt who is terminally ill and I see what strength she's found in her own personal doctrine (she's a catholic)...... but I cannot reconcile this with the fact that having a strong faith can also be the cause of so much disharmony in the world.......



Most of the time I have to admit, I find religious banter on forums quite irritating..... because I cannot connect with any part of the ideology expressed. This is due in no small part to my own innate cynicism......But browsing through this thread today, I think I've had some sort of epiphany, ....... I actually think you're very fortunate ...... I envy the comfort and passion you find in God.... I just wish I understood , but know I never will..... and I don't say that to elicit any sympathy.... it's merely a fact......






Once you start saying that you know for sure is when people know that you don't. The more you learn the less you realize that you actually know. Put your faith in what you know to be right and right will take care of itself.

You have your ideas of what is right and what is wrong. Now all you have to do is winnow the wheat from the chaff. Sounds easy but it is a lot of work. No more or less than what you are doing but, nonetheless, work. The strength of the truth lies within you and it is you that will bring it to the top and into the light where it can be shared. Sharing is what it is all about.
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

Now I'm being burned at the stake and a blasphemer.LOL

Hey, I've got broad shoulders. LOL

Matt. 7 clearly tells us we should not judge or we too will be judged.

If we look at Matt. 16:28 it says'"Truy I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

It is very clear in this passage and others that Jesus expected the parousia to occure if not within his lifetime, certainly within his generation. In fact throughout the Bible the day of the Lord was expected at any time soon. It was not expected at some great distance in the future. We even find this in the OT. Jesus was clearly wrong on that one just as were his apostles and many others including John of Patmos who expected the parousia at any time soon and so did Paul.



Most theologians today would agree with this. The phrase "In these last days" comes from the Bible. Here were are as Crossan says 2000 years later and counting. But then we were specifically told not to try to predict it.

Shalom

Ted

:-6
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

Now I'm being burned at the stake and a blasphemer.LOL

Hey, I've got broad shoulders. LOL

Matt. 7 clearly tells us we should not judge or we too will be judged.

If we look at Matt. 16:28 it says'"Truy I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

It is very clear in this passage and others that Jesus expected the parousia to occure if not within his lifetime, certainly within his generation. In fact throughout the Bible the day of the Lord was expected at any time soon. It was not expected at some great distance in the future. We even find this in the OT. Jesus was clearly wrong on that one just as were his apostles and many others including John of Patmos who expected the parousia at any time soon and so did Paul.



Most theologians today would agree with this. The phrase "In these last days" comes from the Bible. Here were are as Crossan says 2000 years later and counting. But then we were specifically told not to try to predict it.

Shalom

Ted

:-6
Interesting that you brought that up. Who says he was wrong? It also says, "And on the morning of the third day, he arose." He told us time and time again, "to watch ye therefore, for you know not what hour..." Only God knows. And whats time to Him? A thousand years is like unto a day. Besides, He told us the general things to look for. They hadnt occured yet, at the time the NT was being written. Now see? You cant have it both ways, Ted! LOL! You're taking it literally! Now if you'll get back to arguing metaphor, I'll get to arguing literally! :-6
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

You are correct that only God knows. Jesus clearly told us it was not for us to know or for that matter himself. However accoring to the Bible he and the apostles thought it would be "soon" and he was talking about then since "Some of you will not taste death before you see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

My feeling is we should be about the business of promoting the kingdom of God on earth which is what Jesus wanted and leave the rest up to him.

Do I smell a BBQ somewhere? It's awfully close!LOL

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by telaquapacky »

Ted, you have no idea how stimulating your questions are! I have an answer to the matter of Jesus was wrong about "this generation" not passing before He would return, which I'll share when I have the chance, but I'm presently preparing to lead a Bible study in church- which your question about Numbers 31 provided a crucial key for me- thank you!

No one wants to burn you. Raven and I both love you as a brother, and we know you love us too. I am refreshed by your sense of humor.

Pixiepet- welcome to the discussion! You already have much of what we have, though you may not know it. Romans 5:18 says that "as one man's tresspass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (meaning men and women)" That includes you! You are justified, acquitted, forgiven because of what Jesus did on the cross for you, whether you know it or not. Now, whether that acquittal, which covers you in this life results in something greater, a transformation, a relationship with God, and eventually being there in heaven with Him- depends on what you do with it.

Ask God what to do with it. Ask God, "Now that I'm forgiven, what next?" Ask Him trusting that He really exists and that He will tell you. Ask Him for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You can't get that in any church. It comes straight from God Himself. It may make you wish to seek a church. If that happens, ask Him for guidance on that too. Don't move too fast, just let God lead. But if you give Him a chance, He may lead you on a very exciting adventure!
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

You are correct that only God knows. Jesus clearly told us it was not for us to know or for that matter himself. However accoring to the Bible he and the apostles thought it would be "soon" and he was talking about then since "Some of you will not taste death before you see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

My feeling is we should be about the business of promoting the kingdom of God on earth which is what Jesus wanted and leave the rest up to him.

Do I smell a BBQ somewhere? It's awfully close!LOL

Shalom

Ted :-6 But Ted, what is death to a christian? On the cross, Christ promised a thief that "Verily I say unto you, this day you will be with me in paradise". Even Paul knew he was going to be with the Lord. You're also speaking of the passages that were written in answer to the disciples questions about "when these things are about to take place, and the end of the age." It's not the end of the age yet. But all things considered, it cant be very far off! I can see a time when Jerusalem is once again circled about by her enemies, cant you?

Now about the issue of the bible speaking to us in the year 2005, "let those who are READING this, understand." There are so many references that Christ was speaking to us! And those who may follow. It wasnt just for the apostles benefit. They just happened to be the joyous few who got to write it! We may not know the day or the hour, but we've been given plenty to guage our time by! Thats why he kept telling us to watch. Gods last word is revelation. It's up to us to keep our lamps lit. He gave us plenty of fuel to do so. And you're right about one thing, we have to run the good race till it's over.
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

I am not convinced that Jesus meant anything else then somewhere around his time. Throughout the OT they were continually looking for the "Day of the Lord" as well as in the NT.

I know there is a site on the net devoted to listing the hundreds of times since the time of Christ that people were convinced they were in the last days. All the signs appeared to be right. Now here we are again with people saying the same thing that has been said dozens of times. And "This time its different doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

I thought I had the site bookmarked but that may have been before my other computed died. I will see if I can locate it and pass it on.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by Ted »

The following lists about 220 times when folks thought it was the "end times'"

:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/mf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by Ted »

Sorry I'm not sure how you convert that to a URL that can be directly accessed from the post.
kensloft
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Post by kensloft »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

I am not convinced that Jesus meant anything else then somewhere around his time. Throughout the OT they were continually looking for the "Day of the Lord" as well as in the NT.

I know there is a site on the net devoted to listing the hundreds of times since the time of Christ that people were convinced they were in the last days. All the signs appeared to be right. Now here we are again with people saying the same thing that has been said dozens of times. And "This time its different doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

I thought I had the site bookmarked but that may have been before my other computed died. I will see if I can locate it and pass it on.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Once again we are talking in terms of God Days and I don't know how It works!
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Post by koan »

Outside of human existence, I believe a "Day" represents a sequence of events that sequence also only perceivable in human terms, it is only a phrase of convenience. There is no time.

Hello. The world had already ended at least 220 times. The world as people knew it, that is.

"It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine" :guitarist

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telaquapacky
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Post by telaquapacky »

Ted wrote: I know there is a site on the net devoted to listing the hundreds of times since the time of Christ that people were convinced they were in the last days. All the signs appeared to be right. Now here we are again with people saying the same thing that has been said dozens of times. And "This time its different doesn't cut it I'm afraid.Good point! But I would go back further than the time of Christ. The true people of God have always been eagerly waiting for the coming of the Messiah. It has always been the Lord’s intention that His people be ready to meet Him. The Church is supposed to be ready for Jesus to come, like a bride awaits her bridegroom, even though He tarries. Even if the Lord doesn’t come in your day, the moment you die, the next thing you’ll see is Jesus.

But there are two things we were never supposed to do. One is to expect the Messiah to fulfill our own self-serving, worldly expectations. For example, the Jews wanted a militant messiah who would free them from the Romans and make them a rich, powerful nation. When they saw Jesus wouldn’t do this, they rejected and crucified Him. Having erroneous expectations about the coming of Messiah can be fatal! The other thing we were never supposed to do is set dates



Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I’ve been enjoying this, but this will have to be my final post foa a while because I have been spending too much time on it and other things I have to do have been suffering. But thanks, Ted, Raven, Clint, Koan and Pixiepet for a good discussion. Keep it up!
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

I am not convinced that Jesus meant anything else then somewhere around his time. Throughout the OT they were continually looking for the "Day of the Lord" as well as in the NT.

I know there is a site on the net devoted to listing the hundreds of times since the time of Christ that people were convinced they were in the last days. All the signs appeared to be right. Now here we are again with people saying the same thing that has been said dozens of times. And "This time its different doesn't cut it I'm afraid.

I thought I had the site bookmarked but that may have been before my other computed died. I will see if I can locate it and pass it on.

Shalom

Ted :-6 :yh_laugh Ted, I cant help but think of monty python films when it comes to the doom sayers! "bring out your dead" kinda thing. I tend to think that it is more important to keep doing the Lords work right up until I die or He comes back, whichever comes first. Makes no matter to me. He'll come back when He is good and ready. Yes, there will be signs to alert us, but until these things come to pass, we need to just keep on keepin on, so to speak.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Sorry I'm not sure how you convert that to a URL that can be directly accessed from the post.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm

just copy and paste into your web browser. but this should work as a link now.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

Thanks. I'm glad there are some folks around here who know what they are doing.

Yes it works.. Once again, thanks.

Shalom

Ted :-6

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