The Grace of God

Discuss the Christian Faith.
polycarp
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Post by polycarp »

May the God Lord be with you and continually expand your minstry. We need more like you in this fast degenerating world. Keep up the good work of de-populating hell and bringing more souls to Christ.
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capt_buzzard
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Post by capt_buzzard »

Oh No. Not more Religion:mad:
polycarp
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Post by polycarp »

Hello Capt., thanks for your honest opinion which though is contrary to mine. That is the beauty of opinions as the French writer Voltaire once wrote "i diagree with what you say but will defend to death your right to say it".
A formula for tact: "Be brief politely, be aggressive smilingly, be emphatic pleasantly, be positive diplomatically, be right graciously".
Ted
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Post by Ted »

My personal preference is for folks to support their local church. It is the local church that is there when you need it: births, baptisms, marriages, illness, funerals etc. The great TV evangelists are not going to be there when you need them but they will take your money and wear very expensive suits and live in lovely gorgeous home. It always amazes me how many folks don't give their local church one thought or one dime until they need some help. Then they expect it to be there for them.

You know, it usually is but it takes money to run a church and to support various church projects both at home and overseas: food banks, soup kitchens, technical needs in Africa, foster children etc. It is damned hard to talk to someone about their soul when they are in need of the basic elements to maintain life and sanity with dignity.

I've often asked the question but never received an answer. Why should a Muslim who knows he is right and has the true faith believe what a Christian missionary says. After all the Q'ran is the word of God. It even says so just as does the Bible and as do the sacred writings of all the great faiths of the world.

I'm afraid as a Christian I agree with Capt on this one.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: My personal preference is for folks to support their local church. It is the local church that is there when you need it: births, baptisms, marriages, illness, funerals etc. The great TV evangelists are not going to be there when you need them but they will take your money and wear very expensive suits and live in lovely gorgeous home. It always amazes me how many folks don't give their local church one thought or one dime until they need some help. Then they expect it to be there for them.

You know, it usually is but it takes money to run a church and to support various church projects both at home and overseas: food banks, soup kitchens, technical needs in Africa, foster children etc. It is damned hard to talk to someone about their soul when they are in need of the basic elements to maintain life and sanity with dignity.

I've often asked the question but never received an answer. Why should a Muslim who knows he is right and has the true faith believe what a Christian missionary says. After all the Q'ran is the word of God. It even says so just as does the Bible and as do the sacred writings of all the great faiths of the world.

I'm afraid as a Christian I agree with Capt on this one.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Hey Ted,

You should go on TV with your thoughts, you could make a mint. :)
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polycarp
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Post by polycarp »

You all have reasons for holding on to your opinions, but with regards to Ted's question, the superiority of the Christian is easily recognizable with critical analyses of its founder and the teachings involved. Why do some people get violent when their faith is questioned? No faith has been lased and carricatured as christianity, yet it still stands high and we still maintain our peace with non-believers. I am not saying all christians are saints especially some of our flambouyant ministers who make the world apprehensive, nevertheless, I see myself converting to christianity if I was born under some other faith.
A formula for tact: "Be brief politely, be aggressive smilingly, be emphatic pleasantly, be positive diplomatically, be right graciously".
Ted
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Post by Ted »

polycarp :-6

Unfortunately your response does not answer my question. I was not questioning the Christian faith. I was asking a question conderning the relationship with Islam. To this day no conservative Christians have given me a satisfactory answer. If they can't answer that question they have no business in sending out missionaries to proselytize.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: polycarp :-6

Unfortunately your response does not answer my question. I was not questioning the Christian faith. I was asking a question conderning the relationship with Islam. To this day no conservative Christians have given me a satisfactory answer. If they can't answer that question they have no business in sending out missionaries to proselytize.

Shalom

Ted :-6
571 years after Jesus ascended, a man named Mohamed decided to start a new religion. 1200 years (or so) later a man named Joseph Smith also started a new religion. The two religions have much in common. They both plagiarize the Bible where it is convenient and profitable to them. They both lean heavily on salvation by works. They both claim to have a message superior to the one they copied. They both copied just enough of the Scriptures to make theirs new religions seem legitimate. They both bring glory to the men who started them and the organizations they formed, rather than to God. Neither Islam nor Mormonism equal Messianic Judaism (Christianity in the first generation after Jesus). They are attempts by men to copy an authentic work for their own enrichment.
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capt_buzzard
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Post by capt_buzzard »

Clint, I agree with you on that one.
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

Like the apostles, we can only 'lead' people to whom we've 'met' (Christ)

Only God can convince or convict a persons heart as to the truth. "My sheep hear my voice"
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kensloft
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Post by kensloft »

hotrodblondie wrote: Hi we are new to the discussion community this seems to be a great wel put together site really impressed. I am the founder of grace Country ministries and i am cordially inviting anyone to join our group of folks that would like to receive daily scriture readings as well as Inspirational stories to build your faith , We also have a weekly teaching on the subject of God's unconditional love and grace we believe in the completed work of the cross and the new life that we have in Christ, We came from a very legalistic back ground where there was much condemnation but we now proclaim His marvelous love and Grace and teach others of our right standing in God not by our works but by Christ has already done for us . we are the Righteousness of God through Christ and Christ along, we teach not what people need to be in Christ but what they already are.

We look forward to having ones join our e-mailing list and enjoy the daily readings as well as our weekly teachings. We also encourage ones to continue to share on this site we will be here as well.

Our e-mail is gwws@earthlink.net :)


I give up! Where do we send the dough? When you get the email address? Is that when you start asking for cash and such? Unsubscribe me brother.
Ted
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Post by Ted »

Clint :-6

571 years before Mohammed and man named Jesus decided to start a new religion.

Your response does nothing to solve the problem. The Muslim knows he is right. The Q'ran is the word of God. It says so itself.

I will not judge Joseph Smith. I will leave that to God.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: Clint :-6

571 years before Mohammed and man named Jesus decided to start a new religion.

Your response does nothing to solve the problem. The Muslim knows he is right. The Q'ran is the word of God. It says so itself.

I will not judge Joseph Smith. I will leave that to God.

Shalom

Ted :-6
I have to differ with you. Jesus didn’t start a new religion. He was trying to restore the one that was in existence. He was calling on the leaders who were perverting the Father’s intent to return to his intent. He wanted them to understand and respond to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of it. Things went awry several hundred years later when Constantine decided the believing Jews were a political problem and the “church” was born.

I think what I said solves the problem in the mind of those who wish to draw the Muslim to Christ. There is good reason to believe they are misguided. I’m not real concerned about the souls of those who sincerely follow Islam or Mormonism. I can’t point to anything but God’s grace and his father’s heart to support what I believe. I just find it hard, knowing what I know, to think he would punish them for sincerely seeking him.

As for Joseph Smith, you are right. It is up to God to judge him. We must be discerning when it comes to what he did and whether or not it is a true work of God’s. The evidence is that it was a work of man.
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

Even Christ said " I can only do what I have seen of My Father." Which to me means, if He did it, then we know it was from God. And God never changes. Christ was God's last word on the matter, for me. He even left us a book. One book. In my opinion, there have been several attempts to change it. Mormons have changed it. Catholics have changed it, and so too have Jehova witnesses. If you REALLY want to know what the original book says, you have to go to the people who first wrote it. The Jews. The samaritan Pentateuch and the greek Septuagent and the pre-Constanine writings of the early church fathers. Those are helpful in guiding you to which book to put your everlasting souls faith in. Since as a christian, I only get one go around here, I want to get it right!

As for convincing muslims that MY book is the correct one, lets just say the heart of man is God's domain. I can tell them about it, but it's God's job to convince them of the matter. Like Jesus say's, "I am the good shepard, my sheep hear my voice, and I know my sheep."
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

Just for information only. I've been formally trained in both Hebrew and Greek translation and interpretation as well as Biblical history. I have spent many years studying informally and with friends and acquaintances who are theologians and Biblical scholars as well as priest or ministers of the faith.

Having said that I've come to realize that the traditional Christian paradigm no longer fits or works in our modern age and have come to accept the emerging paradigm as the will of God and the direction that the church must take. Part of that path acknowledges the validity of all the Great Faiths of the world where very good men are truly seeking God. They may call God by different names perhaps a thousand of them but it is still God.

Shalom

Ted :-6
polycarp
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Post by polycarp »

While we have no right to judge others, we as intelligent beings have the ability of putting two and two tpgether as the basis of accepting or rejecting other people's points of view or ideas. In this regrad, if Joseph Smith is right, then the entire chrjistian bible is not only wrong but a lie. But the christian bible is true and was in use thousands of years before Joseph Smith's fallacious treatise. So, i pitch my tent with the Christian Bible.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

Just for information only. I've been formally trained in both Hebrew and Greek translation and interpretation as well as Biblical history. I have spent many years studying informally and with friends and acquaintances who are theologians and Biblical scholars as well as priest or ministers of the faith.

Having said that I've come to realize that the traditional Christian paradigm no longer fits or works in our modern age and have come to accept the emerging paradigm as the will of God and the direction that the church must take. Part of that path acknowledges the validity of all the Great Faiths of the world where very good men are truly seeking God. They may call God by different names perhaps a thousand of them but it is still God.

Shalom

Ted :-6
You obviously a wonderful person. I respect you and the way you present yourself here. With that said, it because of what I believe that I must be somewhat direct.

You say you have come to accept the emerging paradigm. I say that I have come to accept an ancient and enduring teacher called the Bible. It gives us the good news of our salvation from the Living God. It is becoming apparent that in the minds of men, education has replaced faith that comes from hearing the word of God.

Acts 4:13 “Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were marveling, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.” It the final analysis it isn’t about education. It is about faith and the presence of God’s Spirit within us.

Wise men of God have said to shun the philosophies and traditions of men. Emerging paradigms seem to be the problem the people of Athens had. Paul who was a very well educated man said their worship of an unknown god was done in ignorance.

Our education can only be a speck on the surface of what there is to know about God. To use a speck of information as justification for new found philosophies seems very risky to me. It seems even more risky to lead others to follow into unknown territory and be responsible for their souls?

Let’s say your education gives you an understanding of .00001/999,999,999,999,999,999,999 (I'll be generous) of what there is to know about God. Suppose that is twice as much as anyone else knows. Are you now qualified to quit seeking the truth from the source provided by the Living God and lead others into a conglomeration of religions that could potentially destroy their faith? Are you walking in faith or in your own knowledge? How can you and your colleagues possibly have the knowledge necessary to demystify all of the religions of the world?

We discuss God and posture as though we know something here. The truth is that all we have is faith.
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Ted
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Post by Ted »

Clint :-6

It is a long story but I will try to shorten it otherwise it will be a book.

I will start with the fact that I have complete trust and faith in God as revealed in the person of Jesus the Christ.

I was raised in a very fundamentalist church but found it very wanting in many respects. This sent me to university to begin my studies.

The Bible is a book composed of myth, legend, folk tale, short stories, poetry, theology, philosophy, and many kernels of history spread throughout. The Pentateuch was passed on orally for centuries before being written down during the Babylonian exile. However, we must come to understand the style of writing of the ancients if we are to understand the Bible. It is a midrashic book from cover to cover. Midrash relies a great deal of metaphor. The Bible is man's response to his experiences of the Divine. It is a very human book written by very inspired men. Some of the history has been embellished for religious reasons. If one understands midrash then one also understand that this was part of the style and not meant to deny or deceive.

I am aware of the scientific discoveries as well as the historical and archaeological discoveries of the past that clearly show both internal and external discrepencies in the Bible. That is the nature of man but it does not stop God from speaking to us through the Bible. Our chore is to discern the very word of God behind the very human words of the Bible and that requires a great deal of effort.

Something does not have to be historically factual to present great truths. Truths can be presented in the various ways mentioned above. A first nations approach noted by Borg goes something like this "I don't know if the story actually happened this way but I do know that it is true".

Metaphor was used because there is no human language on earth that can adequately describe the Divine. Nothing even comes close. Metaphor is our only choice.

Midrash is an ancient way of showing just how important and valid a story was to them. The story of Joshua entering the promised land across a driy Jordan is midrashic. It ehoes the greatest story, to that time, for the ancient Hebrews, the Exodus.

The Gospels are a combination of history remembered and history metaphorized. They are midrashic.

None of this denigrates the Bible in any way. In fact for me it has become a much more powerful book then it ever was before. For Christians the Bible becomes the "Word of God" not by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that God speaks to us through it.

Now, to your question about how I know these things; learning of the origins of the Bible, learning of the nature of midrash which was the Jewish style of writing, constant study and reading and conversing with a wide variety of theologians, Biblical scholars and clergy, much prayer and meditation and so on. I've engaged a great deal in conversation with many others. My constant prayer for 40 some years has been that God will lead me to knowledge, wisdom and truth and I personally feel that is what he has done. My church supports what I say and believe. Though in every church there will be folks who think otherwise but we must rely constantly on God's guidance through the Holy Spirit.

NOw I am where I am and Christian Pluralist because I believe that God has led me in this direction as do many in my church. I am a Christian because I was born into a Christian country and family and I have come to believe that Jesus as the Christ is the true revelation of God for Christians.

I could go on about culture and history but I think this is enough for one post.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by Ted »

Clint :-6

BTW the more I learn the more I realize how much there is to learn and how little I really know about anything. And for that life is far too short as I have much to learn.

It may not always appear so but I am indeed a very spiritual person but academics does come into the equation in one way or another.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

Just for information only. I've been formally trained in both Hebrew and Greek translation and interpretation as well as Biblical history. I have spent many years studying informally and with friends and acquaintances who are theologians and Biblical scholars as well as priest or ministers of the faith.

Having said that I've come to realize that the traditional Christian paradigm no longer fits or works in our modern age and have come to accept the emerging paradigm as the will of God and the direction that the church must take. Part of that path acknowledges the validity of all the Great Faiths of the world where very good men are truly seeking God. They may call God by different names perhaps a thousand of them but it is still God.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Well Ted......I disagree.

As far as the Jews are concerned. He gave us His name. He told Moses what His name was when He was asked. He has many titles. I tend to think His favorite one being, "The One, True, Living God."

He tells it Himself. "Hear ye oh israel, the LORD, your GOD is ONE"

From what I can tell......what you're trying to sell, is that all great religions know God.

No they dont. The God I know, deals out death like it was nothing. Maybe it's not. The God I know, doesnt always make sense. For instance, When Moses was on his way to Egypt, doing what GOD TOLD HIM TO, GOD SAUGHT TO KILL HIM! Only by circumcising his son, prevented his death by GODS OWN HAND.

No Ted, my GOD is not some mamby pamby "every good person, regardless, goes to heaven" type. He laid it out quite plainly. He's HOLY above all. Furthermore, He tells us again and again, "THERE ARE NONE RIGHTOUS BEFORE ME. NO NOT ONE." To HIM, theres no such thing as a good man. If man could get to heaven by way of good deeds, regardless of what he believes, then there would have been no need for Christ. Christ Himself said, "Why do you call ME good? ONLY GOD IS GOOD."

If you know that, then quit trying to soft sell Christianity. If you truly care about souls being lost to a hell that wasnt created for them, then do what Christ told you to do. Make disciples of them. But for God's sake, tell them the truth! If you've studied as much as you say you have, then you dang well know better! And you also must know, that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH. He's the one that shows you the way. It's HIS job to show the Truth of the matter and to convince people. All WE have to do, is stay true to HIS word. Dont water it down with our own. Just to make it more palatable to people! Christianity is not for the faint of heart. There is NO room for compromise. Stick to the WORD of GOD, man! There is no argument that can withstand it. God himself makes a mockery of mans own intelligence. Read the story of Elijah again. It takes courage to stick to the Truth. But stick to it you must. God DOESNT CHANGE! If you think for one minute that each and every word in that book doesnt apply to modern man, then I would like to know exactly which book you've been reading? Because it's not the Holy Bible. You have flat out said that God is dead. Well, I can assure you He's not. Are you saying God's grace for man doesnt have the reach of a couple of thousand years? Then you dont know God. He has plenty to say about us and our times. Have you not 'studied' this? Now is not the time to be saying God's 'paradigm' no longer applies. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. By your fruit, you are known. Every single writer of the New Testament screams that the time is short. Do you realise that every single soul that is lost because of your misguidance, YOU WILL ACCOUNT FOR? No wonder the 'church' makes him want to vomit.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: Clint :-6

BTW the more I learn the more I realize how much there is to learn and how little I really know about anything. And for that life is far too short as I have much to learn.

It may not always appear so but I am indeed a very spiritual person but academics does come into the equation in one way or another.

Shalom

Ted :-6
We have been down this road a short distance before. I doubt that what we say will change what the other believes but it is interesting to me to know why you believe the way you do.

We know so little about God and his powers. It is a huge leap in my mind to jump from the extreme that the Bible doesn’t contain any midrash to the extreme that it is all or nearly all allegory. It seems the truth may be between the two extremes.

It concerns me that men may be drawn to explain the Bible as midrash because they fear saying they don’t understand all of it. If it is all midrash, then we can select and reject as we please. I’m glad I don’t understand all the Bible says. If I ever reach the point that I say I have the Bible all figured out and I know all there is to know about God beyond the written word, I will have reduced God to my level.



Many religions in the world today have reduced God to man’s level. Mormonism even claims man can become god by following their rules. The Bible says God is Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. They say their god is a flesh and bone man. For all these religions to be worshiping the same God (god), shouldn’t they at least agree on whether or not God is a rock image, a physical man or a spirit?

It isn’t knowledge that grows the Kingdom of God. It is seeds of faith planted in love.
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Clint
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Post by Clint »

Raven wrote: Well Ted......I disagree.

As far as the Jews are concerned. He gave us His name. He told Moses what His name was when He was asked. He has many titles. I tend to think His favorite one being, "The One, True, Living God."

He tells it Himself. "Hear ye oh israel, the LORD, your GOD is ONE"

From what I can tell......what you're trying to sell, is that all great religions know God.

No they dont. The God I know, deals out death like it was nothing. Maybe it's not. The God I know, doesnt always make sense. For instance, When Moses was on his way to Egypt, doing what GOD TOLD HIM TO, GOD SAUGHT TO KILL HIM! Only by circumcising his son, prevented his death by GODS OWN HAND.

No Ted, my GOD is not some mamby pamby "every good person, regardless, goes to heaven" type. He laid it out quite plainly. He's HOLY above all. Furthermore, He tells us again and again, "THERE ARE NONE RIGHTOUS BEFORE ME. NO NOT ONE." To HIM, theres no such thing as a good man. If man could get to heaven by way of good deeds, regardless of what he believes, then there would have been no need for Christ. Christ Himself said, "Why do you call ME good? ONLY GOD IS GOOD."

If you know that, then quit trying to soft sell Christianity. If you truly care about souls being lost to a hell that wasnt created for them, then do what Christ told you to do. Make disciples of them. But for God's sake, tell them the truth! If you've studied as much as you say you have, then you dang well know better! And you also must know, that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH. He's the one that shows you the way. It's HIS job to show the Truth of the matter and to convince people. All WE have to do, is stay true to HIS word. Dont water it down with our own. Just to make it more palatable to people! Christianity is not for the faint of heart. There is NO room for compromise. Stick to the WORD of GOD, man! There is no argument that can withstand it. God himself makes a mockery of mans own intelligence. Read the story of Elijah again. It takes courage to stick to the Truth. But stick to it you must. God DOESNT CHANGE! If you think for one minute that each and every word in that book doesnt apply to modern man, then I would like to know exactly which book you've been reading? Because it's not the Holy Bible. You have flat out said that God is dead. Well, I can assure you He's not. Are you saying God's grace for man doesnt have the reach of a couple of thousand years? Then you dont know God. He has plenty to say about us and our times. Have you not 'studied' this? Now is not the time to be saying God's 'paradigm' no longer applies. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. By your fruit, you are known. Every single writer of the New Testament screams that the time is short. Do you realise that every single soul that is lost because of your misguidance, YOU WILL ACCOUNT FOR? No wonder the 'church' makes him want to vomit.
Raven,

You wield the sword very nicely.
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

If you can would you kindly point out to me where I said "God is dead".

I'm afraid your ranting and raving will not change the truth. You have chosen to see the Bible as the absolute inerrant word of God. That is fine for you.

I happen to know that there are both internal and external discprencies that cannot be explained away. The early church knew that the Bible was Midrashic because the writers were Jewish and that is how they wrote.

You clearly did not read what I wrote with any intention of really understanding it. That is probably because of fear of the truth that perhaps you might be wrong on a couple of things and thus compromise your salvation.

Inerrancy and infallibility was and is the heresy of the reformation and the renaissance.

That being said, I think the most important thing that I would like to say is that you have done to me exactly what the Bible forebids; you have judged me. You do not know me and you do not have any idea as to the depth and strength of my faith. You tell me if I had studied all I have claimed I would know better. Pardon me but it is precisely because I have studied and learned and sought the truth that I know what I know today. The Bible even tells us to study to show ourselves approved. Jesus said we would know the truth and it would make us free and indeed it does.

Now contrary to your assertions, I have relied upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit throughout my career and have never been led astray at any time. I firmly accept that Jesus is the Messiah and have relied on him for close to 60 years. In fact many times I have had the experience of the Risen Lord.

Instead of attacking me perhaps you might better look at what I said and debate or discuss it point by point.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by Ted »

Clint :-6

Obviously I am going to disagree with you.

Perhaps we need to do what I have suggested to Raven. Rather then attack what I say perhaps we should discuss it point by point.

As for demeaning God- that is an interesting but unfounded comment. It is your opinion.

As for picking and choosing now that is a really good one to consider since even the fundamentalist/literalists and evangelicals do exactly that.

It seems to me that the best process to follow would be to discuss each in turn: The nature or the Bible and its origin, internal and external discrepencies as noted by many scholars re history, science, archaeology, the nature of truth and how it can be transmitted, the language that we use to describe or define God.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by kensloft »

Ted wrote: Clint :-6

Obviously I am going to disagree with you.

Perhaps we need to do what I have suggested to Raven. Rather then attack what I say perhaps we should discuss it point by point.

As for demeaning God- that is an interesting but unfounded comment. It is your opinion.

As for picking and choosing now that is a really good one to consider since even the fundamentalist/literalists and evangelicals do exactly that.

It seems to me that the best process to follow would be to discuss each in turn: The nature or the Bible and its origin, internal and external discrepencies as noted by many scholars re history, science, archaeology, the nature of truth and how it can be transmitted, the language that we use to describe or define God.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Shalom

Ted :-6


I've got to go with Ted because he was the one that debated for there being the righteousness and reality of there being God.
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Post by Clint »

Ted wrote: Clint :-6

Obviously I am going to disagree with you.

Perhaps we need to do what I have suggested to Raven. Rather then attack what I say perhaps we should discuss it point by point.

As for demeaning God- that is an interesting but unfounded comment. It is your opinion.

As for picking and choosing now that is a really good one to consider since even the fundamentalist/literalists and evangelicals do exactly that.

It seems to me that the best process to follow would be to discuss each in turn: The nature or the Bible and its origin, internal and external discrepencies as noted by many scholars re history, science, archaeology, the nature of truth and how it can be transmitted, the language that we use to describe or define God.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Ted,

I very much appreciate the way you maintain the high ground. I think I’m three or four years younger than you are so maybe I have time to learn.

I had something come up this afternoon that is going to take a lot of my time for the next few days. When I’m free again I would like to follow (roughly at least) your outline for discussion.

As for each of the groups you mention picking and choosing… I agree and academia isn’t exempt. Knowledge that is useful proceeds from wisdom and those with knowledge aren’t necessarily wise. Please, I'm not saying you personally lack wisdom.

I will be looking forward to learning from our discussion.

Shalom aleikhem,

Clint
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Post by koan »

How come I never need to moderate when Ted's around? :-6
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Post by kensloft »

koan wrote: How come I never need to moderate when Ted's around? :-6
I think it's called integrity?
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Post by Clint »

koan wrote: How come I never need to moderate when Ted's around? :-6


He knows how to be wrong with grace. :D
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Post by Raven »

Ted wrote: Raven :-6

If you can would you kindly point out to me where I said "God is dead".

I'm afraid your ranting and raving will not change the truth. You have chosen to see the Bible as the absolute inerrant word of God. That is fine for you.

I happen to know that there are both internal and external discprencies that cannot be explained away. The early church knew that the Bible was Midrashic because the writers were Jewish and that is how they wrote.

You clearly did not read what I wrote with any intention of really understanding it. That is probably because of fear of the truth that perhaps you might be wrong on a couple of things and thus compromise your salvation.

Inerrancy and infallibility was and is the heresy of the reformation and the renaissance.

That being said, I think the most important thing that I would like to say is that you have done to me exactly what the Bible forebids; you have judged me. You do not know me and you do not have any idea as to the depth and strength of my faith. You tell me if I had studied all I have claimed I would know better. Pardon me but it is precisely because I have studied and learned and sought the truth that I know what I know today. The Bible even tells us to study to show ourselves approved. Jesus said we would know the truth and it would make us free and indeed it does.

Now contrary to your assertions, I have relied upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit throughout my career and have never been led astray at any time. I firmly accept that Jesus is the Messiah and have relied on him for close to 60 years. In fact many times I have had the experience of the Risen Lord.

Instead of attacking me perhaps you might better look at what I said and debate or discuss it point by point.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Sorry Ted, I didnt mean to come across as ranting and raving. LOL! I really wasnt y'know.

That said, okay. I took you as saying 'God was dead' with your statement about the paradigm of God not being relevent. Now before you try to picture me as anything else, let me assure you, I've studied every bit as much as yourself. The only exception being, I'm not 60 something. I'm 40 something.

I too, translate Greek and Hebrew. I have read the ancient texts as well. As for innerrency and infallibility, I'm not claiming to be either. I'm claiming God is. Thats not heresy. Thats faith in the word of God. Yes, I do believe the Bible is God breathed. If the fault lies anywhere, it's mans own understanding of it. Man seems to be so willing to call God a liar, that it takes my breath away. Personally I think God capable of keeping His own word from being tampered with. It's too important. Mans eternal soul depends on it. I dont think God would gamble with that. I have also come to understand that the bible explains itself. I also have found that being open minded to the world, closes your mind to the truth. Opening your mind and heart to the truth, closes your mind to the world. The two oppose one another. God told us that too.

My salvation is in no danger whatsoever. Christ keeps whats His. And noone can take them out of His hand.

I think it's dangerous to demean something that people are still dying over. You go right ahead and believe that the word is faulty. But I can pretty much assure you, that the person who is martyred because of his faith in it's truth gets the greater reward.

Yes, the truth DOES set us free. Free from the captivity of our sin.

As for knowledge, thats also Gods to give. Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

Pardon me if I seem more apt to believe God, than some stranger telling me I cant.
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Post by Raven »

Clint wrote: Raven,

You wield the sword very nicely.
Thanks Clint!

This is my absolute favorite type of discussion. And I honestly believe that there is no room for riding the fence in this type of debate. You're either passionately for or passionately opposed, but either way......you're passionate. I also believe God is more than capable of keeping His own word intact. After all......isnt it sitting at the right hand of the Father, this very moment? :-6 It's a Living Word, come down to us from a Living God. Man crucified it once already, for crying out loud! Christ believed in the unerring book, so why shouldnt we? After all, our modern book of Isaiah is word for word spot on with the dead sea scroll version. God knew there would be people who would try to dissemble the book. Thats Lucifers best trick. He's always called God a liar. Just look what happened to Israel because of disbelief. True, it was for our benefit, that Israel was blinded for a bit, but still.

It all boils down to a one on one with God. It's up to every individual, to take up the book and read it for themselves, then decide within their own heart what to believe. I certainly dont understand it all myself, but God doesnt withold understanding for the earnest seeker of the truth! Seek and ye shall find, and ask, it will be given you. God isnt found in a classroom. He's found through His Word.
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

I don't have a great deal of time at the moment but will respond briefly. I was talking about the traditional paradigm of the Christian faith as opposed to the emerging paradigm.

In my view the modern understanding of the Bible as Midrash and Metaphor with kernels of history spread throughout makes the Bible a more powerful book then it ever was as literal. I don't believe for one moment that it demeans the Bible or God.

We have no language that can adequately or even come close to describing or defineing the Divine. The only method we have is metaphor. Without that we are blowing in the wind sort of thing.

As far as the Bible itself is concerned it becomes for us Christians the word of God because God speaks to us through the Bible not by virtue of its authorship. It is composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy and theology, and some history.. Something does not have to be historical to to be true. An example that comes to mind is Dickens "Oliver". While "Oliver" is fiction it is also very true and that was Dicken's intention.

The Bible contains both internal and external discrepencies that cannot be explained away. However when understood as midrash it all becomes very clear. Then we have the problem of God apparently condoning and promoting war crimes as in Num 31. That did not come from God it is purely a human addition and justification for very destructive behaviour that does not reflect the God who said through Jesus that the Greatest Commandment was love.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by kensloft »

Clint wrote: He knows how to be wrong with grace. :D
Sounds like you are trying tomake it look like you are giving the devil his due. Caesar rules! I don't think he resembles that remark.
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Post by Ted »

Raven :-6

As I have alluded to I cannot accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God in the literal sense. There are far too many things that cannot be reconciled with the God whom we see manifest in Jesus the Christ just as there are far too many irreconcilable discrepencies both internal and external to the Bible

History and archaeolgical finds as well a science simply do not support the Bible in a literal sense. If my faith does not take into account reality and the reality around me then there is something wrong.

Now I happen to have the utmost faith in God and in His manifestation in Yeshua of Nazareth. I trust Him completely and I see nothing to fear in Gods unconditional love and Grace.

I will give a couple of examples. Archaeologically there is not one shred of evidence for the Exodus as written in the Bible. It simply did not happen that way. I believe there was an Exodus but in all probability it was a small or extended family unit, or the whole story may have arisen out of the Egyptian expulsion of the Hyksos from the Nile Delta.

When we turn to the betrayal by Judas and his, Judas subsequent death the Gospels do not agree on how he died. I've heard several explanations but all amount to nothing more then a desparate attempt at a creative dance.

Then we have the problem of the father of Joseph: Matt 1:16,Jacob and Luke 3:23 Heli.

I could go on in both archaeology and internal discrepencies. There are literally dozens.

The Romans kept very accurate records even then and there was no census at the time of Jesus birth. And in addition the census is not done in the way described. It simply didn't happen.

Now as a devout Christian these things might bother me but in coming to understand the Bible and how it came to be and the use of midrash and metaphor all of this becomes meaningless. It has no bearing on the message to be found in the Bible. With my studies and my extensive reading and personal discussion with theologians and scholars it all came together in a unified whole and the message of Jesus came through loud and clear.

I am a Christian Pluralist and that is where God has led me.

Shalom

Ted :-6
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Post by capt_buzzard »

I am not a christian, Jewish or Muslim. But I may believe in one spirit,energy power whatever. Its a spiritual life none the less in what I believe. We all follow many different paths in our beliefs in this great Power. Few among you know the roads I have walked for many many years. I may not be great with words and verse, but I am happy and at peace with my fellow humans today.



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Post by capt_buzzard »

capt_buzzard wrote: Oh No. Not more Religion:mad: sorry
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Post by koan »

capt_buzzard wrote: sorry


You are easily forgiven. Not such a buzzard as you'd like to pretend. :-6
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Post by kensloft »

koan wrote: You are easily forgiven. Not such a buzzard as you'd like to pretend. :-6
Me too.
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Post by Clint »

Clint wrote: Ted,

I very much appreciate the way you maintain the high ground. I think I’m three or four years younger than you are so maybe I have time to learn.

I had something come up this afternoon that is going to take a lot of my time for the next few days. When I’m free again I would like to follow (roughly at least) your outline for discussion.

As for each of the groups you mention picking and choosing… I agree and academia isn’t exempt. Knowledge that is useful proceeds from wisdom and those with knowledge aren’t necessarily wise. Please, I'm not saying you personally lack wisdom.

I will be looking forward to learning from our discussion.

Shalom aleikhem,

Clint


Ted,

I would be interested in your response to this link. I believe you said you doubted the exodus. It concerns me when one very well educated man can make such a good case for the exodus and another, make a case against it. I'm not so much concerned with the lack of agreement as I am the willingness of one to discount the accuracy of the Bible based on a disputable opinion.

http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

BTW, when I said, " He knows how to be wrong with grace", I was trying to lighten things up a bit. I, in no way, wanted to offend.

Peace,

Clint
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Post by Raven »

Clint

I could've sworn, I read a few years back, they had discovered what they believed to be the land of Goshen.

Heres an interesting twist:

http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/Des ... s_Tomb.asp

Here are some interesting photo's from the search for sinai.

http://www.baseinstitute.org/photos_sinai.html

What I would love to find, are the missing books of the Bible. Jesus quoted from books of Enoch and others.

As far as discounting the Bible because of 'perceived' discrepencies, my answer to that is simply this; Jesus Himself believed in it to the point of death. As far as I'm concerned, thats good enough for me. :-6
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Post by capt_buzzard »

In Ireland, especially Northern Ireland one could be shot dead for going to a Catholic or Protestant church. For many years 'Religion was pushed down our throats. They would even have your home bombed over your beliefs. Today, the churches are empty except for a few old folks who still believe that hell and eternal damnation awaits them if they don't pay St Peter's Church. They are at this moment looking into new tricks to entice the Irish people back in. Perhaps we will see another Knock or Fatima sightings. They are speaking about exorcism on children and adults alike. But they are really the mad perverts of abuse of the Irish people for generations. Perhaps they need to be exorcised from their own devils:mad: within.
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Post by Raven »

capt_buzzard wrote: In Ireland, especially Northern Ireland one could be shot dead for going to a Catholic or Protestant church. For many years 'Religion was pushed down our throats. They would even have your home bombed over your beliefs. Today, the churches are empty except for a few old folks who still believe that hell and eternal damnation awaits them if they don't pay St Peter's Church. They are at this moment looking into new tricks to entice the Irish people back in. Perhaps we will see another Knock or Fatima sightings. They are speaking about exorcism on children and adults alike. But they are really the mad perverts of abuse of the Irish people for generations. Perhaps they need to be exorcised from their own devils:mad: within.
Kind of reminds you of the sunni and shiite thing in Iraq. The Christian church as a whole has gone totally south since the emperor Constantine made it the 'official' religion of rome. It's been filled with the worst sort of abominations since. I wouldnt be a bit suprised if there were other sightings of 'mary'. And you're absolutely correct about the priesthood. They contain some of the worst villany of all.

Ireland (especially northern) is an absolute tragedy. Protestants and catholics are both christian denominations. Why are they still killing each other?
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Post by capt_buzzard »

Well if you listen and watch ITN News, you will hear that Sinn Fein IRA is having no place to run. www.unison.ie/

The Irish themselves is kicking them out. Also re the church www.paddydoyle.com



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Post by Raven »

capt_buzzard wrote: Well if you listen and watch ITN News, you will hear that Sinn Fein IRA is having no place to run. www.unison.ie/

The Irish themselves is kicking them out. Also re the church www.paddydoyle.com



People Power


Way to go IRELAND! :yh_peace

but where do you think they'll end up? (dont say afghanistan!)
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Post by capt_buzzard »

IRAN or Russia might take them in:D
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Post by Clint »

Raven wrote: Clint

I could've sworn, I read a few years back, they had discovered what they believed to be the land of Goshen.

Heres an interesting twist:

http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/Des ... s_Tomb.asp

Here are some interesting photo's from the search for sinai.

http://www.baseinstitute.org/photos_sinai.html

What I would love to find, are the missing books of the Bible. Jesus quoted from books of Enoch and others.

As far as discounting the Bible because of 'perceived' discrepencies, my answer to that is simply this; Jesus Himself believed in it to the point of death. As far as I'm concerned, thats good enough for me. :-6


Archeological discoveries in recent years have done anything but disprove the accuracy of Biblical accounts of history. As I walked through the Tells of Israel, I was impressed with the fact that they are still being unearthed. Not all that there is to know has even been brought to the light of day, let alone, found its place in the huge puzzle it is a piece of. What has been placed in the puzzle gives credence to the Bible. It isn’t the other way around.

The links you provided are more evidence to me that we are in the infancy of discovery. To discount the Bible by calling it all allegory is to not recognize how little even the most educated among us knows. It reminds me that God is beyond my ability to comprehend and that I should take at face value, the things he has clearly revealed. He has clearly given us the Scriptures and as you say, if they are good enough for Jesus, they are good enough for me.

As one progresses along the curve of learning, I think it is easier to say that because the subject is so complex, it is all allegory. My fear is that once stated, that could be the apex of the curve. To me, declaring to those who are less learned that it is all allegory is a dangerous thing to do. I think it is equally dangerous to say it doesn’t contain any allegory at all.

I am learning. I’m neither well informed on this subject, nor am I uninformed. I am simply awe struck by the vastness of it and how it always points in the same direction.
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Post by kensloft »

Raven wrote: Kind of reminds you of the sunni and shiite thing in Iraq. The Christian church as a whole has gone totally south since the emperor Constantine made it the 'official' religion of rome. It's been filled with the worst sort of abominations since. I wouldnt be a bit suprised if there were other sightings of 'mary'. And you're absolutely correct about the priesthood. They contain some of the worst villany of all.

Ireland (especially northern) is an absolute tragedy. Protestants and catholics are both christian denominations. Why are they still killing each other?
They just sold a piece of jesus toast for umpteen thousand on the Internet recently?.

Do you think if the toast flakes and it reveals Mary underneath... would that count? Do you think that would be a good investment? Or bet?

Their bosses tell them that their bosses are smarter than your bosses because they and only they are in touch with god. We can read better than you so it only makes sense that we have a better reading of the understanding of exactly what it was that Jesus said!

When people have the means and ways with which to lauch wars that will give their superiority the ability to conclusively control the citizens then you know they are going to use it. The problem is when the oppressed get the same tools and turn it on them. Once they figure out that they both can do the same damage then maybe they'll talk a little more.

Have the ten percenters telling you what to do and then send the 90%ers into the fray. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. However, I don't think that the numbers that I used are anywhere near being accurate but for the sake of jocularity... ? Know too many clerics to say anything bad about their beliefs. Too many wonderful people believing that they are making a difference and in many ways they are. That there is a problem is what should be looked at and is what needs to be addressed.

Otherwise it's back to square one.
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Post by capt_buzzard »

Oh I know some excellent Priests and nuns doing very good work in their communites at home and aboard. But they protected the guilty ones from the law and I might add in Ireland, from the people.
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Post by kensloft »

capt_buzzard wrote: Oh I know some excellent Priests and nuns doing very good work in their communites at home and aboard. But they protected the guilty ones from the law and I might add in Ireland, from the people.
Yes, but that begs the question of what did they know, if anything. Wouldn't exactly call being in a monastery or nunnery, under the control of a bishop who tells you what you see and you believe him because he is the bishop, a worldy knowledge of what is going on around them. Tough decision.

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